Ketamine

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Celexa

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2017
Messages
728
Reaction score
2,124
I have an medically complex patient with severe pain and severe MDD. They were admitted to the medical hospital and in conjunction with the pain service we initiated PO ketamine. Frankly, I was blown away by the response. Rapid, immediate improvement in both pain and depression which has also allowed them to progress medically. I truly think the ketamine is having a direct effect on this patients depression and the mental status improvement isn't just mediated through reduction in pain.

The problem is they're medically ready for dc but their chronic pain condition is still going to be a factor. I've been told insurance won't cover PO ketamine. I also can't figure out a way for the pt to even get eskatamine--we don't have a clinic in our center that prescribes it, and even if there was an outpatient ketamine clinic to send the pt to, they can't afford out of pocket.

Thoughts? I'm very worried the pt will backslide when we take the ketamine off. They're already on rational medications otherwise (SNRI, adjuntive SGA, gabapentin also for pain). I am not worried they would abuse the ketamine but it seems like we won't be able to get it outpatient.

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I have an medically complex patient with severe pain and severe MDD. They were admitted to the medical hospital and in conjunction with the pain service we initiated PO ketamine. Frankly, I was blown away by the response. Rapid, immediate improvement in both pain and depression which has also allowed them to progress medically. I truly think the ketamine is having a direct effect on this patients depression and the mental status improvement isn't just mediated through reduction in pain.

The problem is they're medically ready for dc but their chronic pain condition is still going to be a factor. I've been told insurance won't cover PO ketamine. I also can't figure out a way for the pt to even get eskatamine--we don't have a clinic in our center that prescribes it, and even if there was an outpatient ketamine clinic to send the pt to, they can't afford out of pocket.

Thoughts? I'm very worried the pt will backslide when we take the ketamine off. They're already on rational medications otherwise (SNRI, adjuntive SGA, gabapentin also for pain). I am not worried they would abuse the ketamine but it seems like we won't be able to get it outpatient.

I'd strongly suggest contacting local compounding pharmacies and asking them about compounding IN ketamine. It's true that insurance isn't going to cover it but it is not unusual to get quoted $50-100 dollars a month for a reasonable dosage, often with free delivery thrown. Depending on how strapped the patient is, this could be a really good option. There are some resources out there based on clinical experience for converting from PO to IN doses, although obviously this is less well established than, say, SGA equivalencies.

I have had a similar experience with a couple of patients. Going from hand-wringing, "what will become of me", never leaving bed, weeping at the drop of a hat depression to "you know what, I think I need to get out of the house" and going to run errands and have dinner with a friend later that day. Not the modal experience but when it works it really seems to work.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Do you work in such a small area that no other organization offers esketamine? We do this work even for patient's that are not otherwise in our treatment ecosystem. We went with Spravato specifically because of it being covered by insurance.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Compounded Intranasal Ketamine, that you prescribe then for mental health. Or perhaps their PCP does for pain.

Why are you worried about their finances? People drop money on starbucks, cell phones, cannabis, cigarretes, all the time. Or they can find a part time, under the table cash pay job. Their finances are their problem to resolve.

In summary for Students/Residents: Don't enmesh yourself with being a rescuer mindset, and stay far away from the cult of The Victim Olympics.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
The places that do Spravato usually do all the prior auths and stuff themselves, you just send the patient there for Spravato (kind of like TMS). If they've had a good response to ketamine already it'll probably be even easier than usual to get it covered. It'll have to be for MDD though, not for pain.
I'm sure your area has a Spravato rep or they'll be happy to talk to you in a heartbeat if you email them....they'll tell you who in your area does Spravato.

Insurance will never cover PO ketamine or non-spravato IN ketamine but yeah some compounding pharmacies will do either/or for you. It's not crazy expensive as far as I've heard like was mentioned above.
 
I'd recommend against using compounded ketamine/esketamine products where the patient isn't being observed for the 2 hours required for esketamine. I have nothing against compounded meds and will rx other compounded meds but direct delivery of ketamine products to patients leads to a higher diversion risk and patients taking it without the observation required under Spravato's REMS seem to me to open you up to lots of liability plus therapeutically it can be actively harmful to use ketamine if the patient is in a bad mindset or setting when getting the treatment. You might the patient to check out the Spravato Locator website.
 
I'd recommend against using compounded ketamine/esketamine products where the patient isn't being observed for the 2 hours required for esketamine. I have nothing against compounded meds and will rx other compounded meds but direct delivery of ketamine products to patients leads to a higher diversion risk and patients taking it without the observation required under Spravato's REMS seem to me to open you up to lots of liability plus therapeutically it can be actively harmful to use ketamine if the patient is in a bad mindset or setting when getting the treatment. You might the patient to check out the Spravato Locator website.

As always depends on the patient's circumstances. When there is a family member or close friend who is willing to babysit them for several hours after administration, safety concerns are much less problematic. And as far as diversion goes benzos and stimulants definitely have more street value.

Is there any evidence out there about treatment setting mattering more for ketamine than more establish psychotropics? I buy this for MDMA and hallucinogens but would be interested to see evidence it was especially sensitive to those conditions.
 
Is there any evidence out there about treatment setting mattering more for ketamine than more establish psychotropics? I buy this for MDMA and hallucinogens but would be interested to see evidence it was especially sensitive to those conditions.
I'm not sure if this is better considered part of treatment setting vs an easy modification one can do at home regardless of treatment setting, but a cool article on listening to music during ESK treatment came out last month showing more tolerability / less anxiety during treatment, and interestingly more dissociation despite the better tolerability. Point being environment if not setting matters more than it does for typical psychotropics.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Compounded Intranasal Ketamine, that you prescribe then for mental health. Or perhaps their PCP does for pain.

Why are you worried about their finances? People drop money on starbucks, cell phones, cannabis, cigarretes, all the time. Or they can find a part time, under the table cash pay job. Their finances are their problem to resolve.

In summary for Students/Residents: Don't enmesh yourself with being a rescuer mindset, and stay far away from the cult of The Victim Olympics.
I agree with avoiding enmeshment/rescuer mindset, but financial strain is usually a significant contributor to worsening mental health. I don't view it as simply as "they can save/make more money" because there are fiscally responsible people who work a lot who still are not doing well financially. Sometimes you just have to deal with the reality of money, but we should always be at least cognizant of cheaper alternatives.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I'm not sure if this is better considered part of treatment setting vs an easy modification one can do at home regardless of treatment setting, but a cool article on listening to music during ESK treatment came out last month showing more tolerability / less anxiety during treatment, and interestingly more dissociation despite the better tolerability. Point being environment if not setting matters more than it does for typical psychotropics.

Quite interesting, thanks for passing that along. I think anything that can make taking it more of a ritual procedure oriented towards recovery is probably going to be a positive thing. Going forward will definitely suggest making a point of taking it in a comfortable, safe-seeming environment.
 
Thank you everyone. I did not realize compounded ketamine was potentially so viable. The patient definitely does not have financial means, but the family may be able to help with reasonable costs. @Sushirolls I certainly believe the patient and family need to come to the table but also enough meds get quoted at $1000+/month we do have to think about practicalities. In this case what I meant by not being able to afford was thay the pt could not afford to go to a cash ketamine clinic, which I would be hesitant to refer to anyway as I don't know of any reputable places. The pt will be monitored and I am not worried about diversion of abuse of the ketamine. I also do not think they will need it indefinitely, but they need it longer than an inpatient stay can be justified.

There are a lot of care gaps where I am. Some things are just not here but others just are not or it's impossible to get patients in on a clinically practical timeline.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I agree with avoiding enmeshment/rescuer mindset, but financial strain is usually a significant contributor to worsening mental health. I don't view it as simply as "they can save/make more money" because there are fiscally responsible people who work a lot who still are not doing well financially. Sometimes you just have to deal with the reality of money, but we should always be at least cognizant of cheaper alternatives.

Also regardless of whether they should be able to afford a given treatment, the efficacy of medications that the patient doesn't take trends towards zero. If they are telling you they can't afford something, they are telling you they are probably not going to pay money for it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Thank you everyone. I did not realize compounded ketamine was potentially so viable. The patient definitely does not have financial means, but the family may be able to help with reasonable costs. @Sushirolls I certainly believe the patient and family need to come to the table but also enough meds get quoted at $1000+/month we do have to think about practicalities. In this case what I meant by not being able to afford was thay the pt could not afford to go to a cash ketamine clinic, which I would be hesitant to refer to anyway as I don't know of any reputable places. The pt will be monitored and I am not worried about diversion of abuse of the ketamine. I also do not think they will need it indefinitely, but they need it longer than an inpatient stay can be justified.

There are a lot of care gaps where I am. Some things are just not here but others just are not or it's impossible to get patients in on a clinically practical timeline.

I am very familiar with the super expensive cash IV clinics that charge ludicrous sums. In fairness, though, you have to reckon with their overhead - IV supplies, nursing staff, BP monitoring, the anesthesiologist's boat payment....
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Members don't see this ad :)
I am very familiar with the super expensive cash IV clinics that charge ludicrous sums. In fairness, though, you have to reckon with their overhead - IV supplies, nursing staff, BP monitoring, the anesthesiologist's boat payment....
More like the alimony or second family starting at age 50+ payments based on my experience.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 2 users
Compounded Intranasal Ketamine, that you prescribe then for mental health. Or perhaps their PCP does for pain.

Why are you worried about their finances? People drop money on starbucks, cell phones, cannabis, cigarretes, all the time. Or they can find a part time, under the table cash pay job. Their finances are their problem to resolve.

In summary for Students/Residents: Don't enmesh yourself with being a rescuer mindset, and stay far away from the cult of The Victim Olympics.
Yes, those "under the table" cash jobs (interesting you would tell your patient to break the law to afford medication) are not easy to find and frequently will not work around your primary job's schedule, and often require special skills or equipment, and such scheduling can be a problem for childcare as well. And surely all this work could be a strain for someone with chronic pain.

Lyft and Uber require a vehicle newer than many people have/can afford. Door Dash and Instacart are getting to where you can hardly make any money for the time it takes, unless you do it full time now, and even then it's crap. Mowing lawns is physical labor and has its own issues with scheduling. Same with plasma. Pizza delivery isn't worth it unless you're getting home at 4 am. There is serious competition for bottles/cans in states that have deposits.

I wonder, do you regularly troll craigslist to see what of these kind of gig jobs or part time or weekend jobs there are and how they mesh with a primary job? And do you think working every spare minute to survive with chronic pain to afford your electricity and Ketamine, might not be just a tad self defeating?

Not showing an appreciation for the current financial realities many face now, sounds like someone who has very little idea about what they're talking about. It sounds like it's based on outdated information.

I have people in my own family I've been trying to help, I've dealt with a lot of working poor/SSI/SSDI folks. For most people, their primary job is going to be it for them and it's going to be hard to work around or find opportunities to get more money. Like I said having kids being a big limiter. And these people are not spending a dime on anything you've listed, except a secondhand phone when one dies. Or hardly any money on their kids either, not even on toys or clothes which they get secondhand.

I think it very widely misses the mark to chalk these struggles up to "luxury spending" such as on coffee that creates such an issue. As a psychiatrist, do you think being so poor you have no entertainment budget whatsoever, not even for coffee, is a recipe for good health? I thought we acknowledge that all humans need entertainment and should have *some* budget towards that, even if they were dirt poor. I get people don't have this, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't or be shamed for getting some coffee.

Also surprising one wouldn't account for other medical expenses they are trying to keep up with, or their family's, that they may likely have.

Or car repairs, or any number of things making it hard for people to get by.

Ironically it's the working poor who don't get much government assistance that frequently this is what things look like.

It seems like a very ill reasoned or ignorant take to me, or a very callous one.

It's not common that I would say to a physician, maybe you are the one that needs to consider another line of work. Because going by your comments on SDN, the regard you seem to have... I hope you are just venting here and you don't treat anyone like this IRL. I think perhaps you need to be better educated about people with financial constraints in our line of work in the current environment.

You're not entirely wrong about trying to be someone's savior, victim mentality, or that some people don't manage their money and their lives as well as they could.

But of anything here assuming people could get under the table cash jobs, and expecting people to break the law (that's what under the table means) is where I think such an attitude towards the working poor ventures into something very toxic.

I think as an answer it is very lacking in its focus, when someone was asking questions about trying to help a patient locate an affordable option of medication that has significant benefit and of course might not be covered or more difficult to source.

Your comments upset me greatly. As feedback, they often come across to me as having a casual cruelty and indifference to described patient plights. I think that you have some wisdom in all this, but I'm just overwhelmed at what seems to me to be a casual expectation that people to break the law, when I think being sensitive to them or even offering advice in good faith about where they think they are at, would be more helpful. I wouldn't assume they could break the law or find these opportunities you suggest.

Even if you suggest they go above board and claim those cash wages and pay tax on them, this advice isn't much better imo.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • Dislike
Reactions: 2 users
No, I don't encourage my patients to break tax law. I do my job and encourage their function and well being.

I am also not naive at the frequency in which patients on Medicaid or SSD do have side jobs so as not tip the financial scale to lose their various benefits.

I don't get sucked into their financial woes and internalize them to where I need to rescue their mess. Keeping this boundary is healthy, and as posted above, I encourage those in training to do the same.

Seeing the poverty that exists in other countries, it has sobering impression of what's called poverty in America. It's been the exception that I run into people who truly are a victim or destitute in America. The range of social services that exist governmental and even religious based is profound.

Having lived as lower class as a youth; endured the constraints of parental bankruptcy triggered by unexpected medical bills, experienced penny to penny living at various stages of life. I'm not naive to struggles people endure. And it is thru these experiences that I fully understand the capabilities of what people can achieve despite the adversities people face. Oh, and chronic pain isn't an excuse either - people need to function. Take a rotation in Chronic Pain Rehab at Mayo, CCF, Hopkins, etc

I do take issue with the Victim Olympics of the increasing political schism in our country, and rising tide of progressive toxicities slashing at the jugular of American liberties and its beating heart of capitalism.

You realize it's more difficult to find merits in your points with the volume of attacks at me directly, rather than finding faults in my logic:
  1. "you make me sick"
  2. "casual cruelty"
  3. "attitude towards the working poor ventures into toxicity"
  4. "poorly educated"
  5. "some kind of daft with this?"
  6. "its cute too that you think..."
I encourage to you read your post, reflect on SDN's policies that most likely say some where don't attack people, and perhaps lean into professionalism [or at a minimum civic discourse] that avoids overly emotional attacks against a person. Please speak to the points, facts, issues.
 
Last edited:
No, I don't encourage my patients to break tax law. I do my job and encourage their function and well being.

I am also not naive at the frequency in which patients on Medicaid or SSD do have side jobs so as not tip the financial scale to lose their various benefits.

I don't get sucked into their financial woes and internalize them to where I need to rescue their mess. Keeping this boundary is healthy, and as posted above, I encourage those in training to do the same.

Seeing the poverty that exists in other countries, it has sobering impression of what's called poverty in America. It's been the exception that I run into people who truly are a victim or destitute in America. The range of social services that exist governmental and even religious based is profound.

Having lived as lower class as a youth; endured the constraints of parental bankruptcy triggered by unexpected medical bills, experienced penny to penny living at various stages of life. I'm not naive to struggles people endure. And it is thru these experiences that I fully understand the capabilities of what people can achieve despite the adversities people face. Oh, and chronic pain isn't an excuse either - people need to function. Take a rotation in Chronic Pain Rehab at Mayo, CCF, Hopkins, etc

I do take issue with the Victim Olympics of the increasing political schism in our country, and rising tide of progressive toxicities slashing at the jugular of American liberties and its beating heart of capitalism.

You realize it's more difficult to find merits in your points with the volume of attacks at me directly, rather than finding faults in my logic:
  1. "you make me sick"
  2. "casual cruelty"
  3. "attitude towards the working poor ventures into toxicity"
  4. "poorly educated"
  5. "some kind of daft with this?"
  6. "its cute too that you think..."
I encourage to you read your post, reflect on SDN's policies that most likely say some where don't attack people, and perhaps lean into professionalism [or at a minimum civic discourse] that avoids overly emotional attacks against a person. Please speak to the points, facts, issues.
I will edit.
 
Yes, I've been in dire straits before, and have been again in the not distant past.

I can tell you, for anyone that hasn't been on the streets or trying to stay off them now, that it is significantly more difficult to do so now than it was back whenever we might have been doing it if it was some years ago.

We can debate it, but when the choice is the heat being on or certain mental health medications, often it tips to the former.

People who have struggled and overcome, frequently can overestimate others' ability to do so, either due to intrinsic or extrinsic factors. And temporality makes a difference here in understanding.

Comparisons to foreign countries and poverty to our own society is fraught for reasons I can't expound on at the moment.
 
Do you work in such a small area that no other organization offers esketamine? We do this work even for patient's that are not otherwise in our treatment ecosystem. We went with Spravato specifically because of it being covered by insurance.
Does Spravato work as well for pain as PO ketamine? Does insurance coverage it for that indication?
 
Does Spravato work as well for pain as PO ketamine? Does insurance coverage it for that indication?

Spravato won’t be approved for pain. I haven’t been impressed with either sporadic oral ketamine or Spravato for pain.

Most pain studies and my exposure is that pain requires higher dosages and for longer duration. CRPS studies focus on 4 hour infusions which many patients find unbearable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Hey who sent you!! :lol: #truth
Blessed by a partner who is a surgeon so I hear all the gossip on surgeons and gas docs who somehow seem to live much more wild lives than us pedestrian psychiatrists :rofl:.
 
  • Love
Reactions: 1 user
Blessed by a partner who is a surgeon so I hear all the gossip on surgeons and gas docs who somehow seem to live much more wild lives than us pedestrian psychiatrists :rofl:.

lol I like to view it as "we try not to do the stuff the leads people to come see us eventually"
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: 4 users
Update: family was willing to pay for ketamine. But patient needs a snf and they won't take a patient on ketamine. So we are cautiously weaning and praying he doesn't relapse in terms of depression and pain. If the pain doesn't rebound but the depression comes back, I will likely pursue ECT. If they both come back I'll consult palliative for assistance. I'm frustrated but fortunately working with good colleagues in the form of the primary team.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Maybe consider Auvelity for some overlapping mechanism that SNF would likely accept?
 
Top