KevinMD Podcast: A Back Procedure that Weakens Your Spine

Started by drusso
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Get help with your application

Use all the free resources available to you from SDN: articles, guides, expert advising, forums discussions, and school research.

drusso

Full Member
Moderator Emeritus
Lifetime Donor
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad


A young patient walks in with ordinary back pain and leaves on a path that can quietly weaken the muscle holding the spine together. Francisco M. Torres is an interventional physiatrist who noticed these patients coming back to him sooner, and traced it to radiofrequency ablation denervating the multifidus, the back's most important stabilizer, until the muscle atrophies and fills with fat. This episode is based on his article "Radiofrequency ablation and the young back pain patient," published on KevinMD. You will hear why insurers began steering these patients toward the procedure, why most of the evidence comes from older patients with degeneration rather than people in their twenties, and why he believes the muscle damage should be spelled out in the consent form. He explains why generic core exercises fall short, how facet injections and targeted rehabilitation offer a lower-risk path, and the exact questions to ask before you agree. Press play to hear the questions worth asking before you let anyone burn a nerve in your back.

Partner with me on the KevinMD platform. With over three million monthly readers and half a million social media followers, I give you direct access to the doctors and patients who matter most. Whether you need a sponsored article, email campaign, video interview, or a spot right here on the podcast, I offer the trusted space your brand deserves to be heard. Let's work together to tell your story.

PARTNER WITH KEVINMD → KevinMD influencer opportunities

SUBSCRIBE TO THE PODCAST → Follow


A spine doctor started telling his patients one more thing before they signed for a common back procedure. A lot of them stopped signing.
The one more thing is that the procedure works by burning a nerve, and that nerve is also the supply line for the muscle your lower back depends on.

Francisco M. Torres is an interventional physiatrist who spent most of his career treating young adults whose back pain doesn't radiate anywhere and whose imaging shows almost nothing.

For years his plan was simple. Calm the joint down with an injection and get them into real physical therapy. He wouldn't hear from those patients again for years.

Then the rules changed. Insurers began requiring a diagnostic nerve block before they'd approve the joint injection. Torres doesn't perform that block, so those patients went to the physicians who do. And once a patient is sitting in front of a physician who does nerve blocks, the next thing on the menu is radiofrequency ablation, which pays well and which cauterizes the nerve instead of quieting the joint.

His patients started coming back sooner.

What patients aren't told, he says, is what else that nerve is doing. It's the medial branch of the dorsal ramus, and it also supplies the multifidus, which Torres calls the most powerful stabilizer of the back. Take out the nerve and you take out the pain signal, and the muscle loses its supply along with it.

He is careful about the evidence, and that carefulness is the whole reason to listen to him. A 2009 study found atrophy and fatty replacement of the multifidus two years after a one-sided ablation, and it could not tie those changes to pain or disability. Nobody has run the long-term study that would settle it either way. And what we do know about ablation comes mostly from patients over 50 whose spines are already degenerating, not from a 20-year-old who still has 40 years to go on that spine.

Torres says the procedure has a role and he isn't out to badmouth it. What he wants is one line on the consent form, so a patient knows a muscle is being denervated and gets to decide whether that trade is worth it. When he says it out loud in his own exam room, a fair number of people tell him no.

If someone you love is being offered this in their twenties, he wants them asking four things. Is anyone measuring the size and quality of my multifidus before we do this? Can I have a baseline? Will we repeat the imaging after I train? And will physical therapy actually measure whether the muscle is firing, instead of just telling me to do core?

Torres put it this way:
"We are destroying something here. It is not a benign procedure. You are actually changing the anatomy."

Listen to the full conversation on The Podcast by KevinMD. Link in the comments.

#BackPain #InformedConsent #ThePodcastbyKevinMD
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
In all seriousness, I don't disagree. It is interesting to me how the literature suggested initially that it didn't really happen and now has swung back the other way with the more sensitive/directed tools.

I do want to know though if anyone is doing the muscle sparing facet RF protocols out there?
 
RFs have always been for older, arthritic spines. MAYBE once for trauma/MVA in the younger population.

im glad the literature is starting to come around. lets see if lobelsteve does. he was always gung ho to burn away in the younger folks
 
RFs have always been for older, arthritic spines. MAYBE once for trauma/MVA in the younger population.

im glad the literature is starting to come around. lets see if lobelsteve does. he was always gung ho to burn away in the younger folks
He was? I don’t remember that. You cray cray as usual
 
RFs have always been for older, arthritic spines. MAYBE once for trauma/MVA in the younger population.

im glad the literature is starting to come around. lets see if lobelsteve does. he was always gung ho to burn away in the younger folks
Meh.
Article from 2009 referenced.
Younger patients: you can continue to hurt or we can make it better at a potential cost.
Today I have 31 on my schedule. 2 people are younger than I am. Ages 45/50.
Me: 55 years old. If I had CLBP without Modic changes, RF away.
 
Meh.
Article from 2009 referenced.
Younger patients: you can continue to hurt or we can make it better at a potential cost.
Today I have 31 on my schedule. 2 people are younger than I am. Ages 45/50.
Me: 55 years old. If I had CLBP without Modic changes, RF away.
45 with clear facet OA on imaging or they are fat: yes

20-40 with axial pain means it is disc usually. no RFs for them
 
If the muscle denervation was truly an issue then wouldn't we be seeing a significant percentage of patients that feel worse rather than better??

My experience is a patient to either feel better or go back to baseline. I cannot think of anyone, or at least hardly anyone over 20 years that felt actually worse apart from some initial soreness

The article frankly to me smacks of some sensationalism/fear mongering

It would be uncommon that I would recommend RFA for someone less than 50 years old, but in the right situation I may consider it
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
I had a 30 yo patient 10+ years ago who was referred from surgeon for discogram as the surgeon wants to fuse her. I discussed that this was not a procedure to reduce her pain and in fact we are trying to reproduce her pain by pressurizing disc. She thought she was coming for pain relief as she wants something other than a fusion. She had axial back pain and i did mbb/rfa. She got great relief and ended up having the rfa repeated 3-4 times over the past ten years. She still sings my praises and she is friends with those throw away magazines that rate best docs. She makes sure i am in it every year even though i dont advertise with them. Lol

What if she didnt have the rfa then she would have been a young patient with a fusion. Now ten years later? Is the fusion getting extended? Is she needing a stim? She had young kids at the time. Would she have been able to care for them? Her husband is a busy dentist practice owner, he couldn’t take off when Mom cant get out of bed. I don’t think she cares about weak multif muscles.

I don’t do this routinely on young patients, but sometimes I do and it usually saves them from surgery or just grin and bear it.
 
There was a period after Reactiv8 gained some commercial coverage where I presented it as an option. Pretty much a unanimous "F that, I don't want a device implanted, much rather do RFA". Stopped wasting my breath.
 
yes but isnt the question whether it is clinically an issue or not?

Can you tell if your blood pressure is 195/108?

I will not ablate a young person, I have of course, and I do occasionally but I tell them about this before I do it. These are special cases when I do it.

You’re destroying an entire muscle.
 
Yes, atrophy is to be seen in the elderly and when young ppl show up in your clinic with back pain who also have atrophy you should perhaps ask yourself if it’s related, bc it probably is related.

Annular fissures are not always painful, annular fissures are often painful.
 

This is probably the most recent one that looks at unilateral lumbar rfa with the contralateral side acting like a control.

I'm sure it happens somewhat, but I'm just not sure how clinically relevant it is
They presumably only had pain on the one side. That’s a pretty big confounder. Why did only one side hurt? What was the injury, and did that cause the atrophy?
 
In medicine in general, always and never are usually not the right answer which looking at therapeutic options. You have to look at an individual patient and come up with an individual plan.
 
There was a period after Reactiv8 gained some commercial coverage where I presented it as an option. Pretty much a unanimous "F that, I don't want a device implanted, much rather do RFA". Stopped wasting my breath.
Can you tell if your blood pressure is 195/108?

I will not ablate a young person, I have of course, and I do occasionally but I tell them about this before I do it. These are special cases when I do it.

You’re destroying an entire muscle.
I tried to have similar conversations with younger patients with Sprint, no one was ever interested.

In reality I’m likely not that far off from you @MitchLevi - I hesitate to offer RFA in young patients, especially if spondy at that level, and I try to hammer lifestyle changes and make sure they understand long term concerns. But if nothing else has worked and they hear my spiel and still want to do it, I do the procedure.

In my mind attributable risk from RFA is likely low - they already have chronic low back pain in order to qualify for the procedure. Doing nothing has a cost as well in decreased function, quality of life years lost, etc. Or worse, they keep getting second opinions until they find a shark to fuse or naturopath to inject who knows what into who knows where
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
Can you tell if your blood pressure is 195/108?

I will not ablate a young person, I have of course, and I do occasionally but I tell them about this before I do it. These are special cases when I do it.

You’re destroying an entire muscle.

I think there are a few questions here:

1) should we offer RFA to young pts? most of us seem to agree that RFA under 40 yo is more the exception than the rule

2) is paraspinal atrophy from RFA real? (likely yes) and also is it clinically a problem? (probably not)

3) is the author the the OP article biased against RFA? sounds that way. (Also what studies is he basing his opinion off of vs a lot of positive established studies)

4) what has the best peer reviewed evidence for facet pain -----> RFA

I'm not sure what to make of your question about BP, I'm not sure that is a good analogy IMO
 
I think there are a few questions here:

1) should we offer RFA to young pts? most of us seem to agree that RFA under 40 yo is more the exception than the rule

2) is paraspinal atrophy from RFA real? (likely yes) and also is it clinically a problem? (probably not)

3) is the author the the OP article biased against RFA? sounds that way. (Also what studies is he basing his opinion off of vs a lot of positive established studies)

4) what has the best peer reviewed evidence for facet pain -----> RFA

I'm not sure what to make of your question about BP, I'm not sure that is a good analogy IMO
I always initially offer IA facet injections in my younger patients who I think may have facet mediated pain. I even document reasons for avoiding blocks and ablation such as deafferentation pain, multifidi atrophy and unknown risks of chronic ongoing denervation due to repeat procedures. Even with all that, the idiot insurance companies will still will deny the facet injection. Only other option is PNS or Reactiv8 for these presumable facetogenic cases and most insurance companies deny those as well
 
Why do we Rx physical therapy? If a proper functioning motor unit is not clinically relevant why do we Rx it, and why do the vast majority of pain doctors virtue signal about the benefits of PT?

What is the single most important factor in management of the painful arthritic knee? Quad strengthening.

How could anyone prove or disprove the clinical relevance of multifidus atrophy?
 
I always initially offer IA facet injections in my younger patients who I think may have facet mediated pain. I even document reasons for avoiding blocks and ablation such as deafferentation pain, multifidi atrophy and unknown risks of chronic ongoing denervation due to repeat procedures. Even with all that, the idiot insurance companies will still will deny the facet injection. Only other option is PNS or Reactiv8 for these presumable facetogenic cases and most insurance companies deny those as well
Or do the mbb but somehow find a way to slip a little steroid in the joint…
 
An argument would be that RFA would allow the patient to be more active, partake more in PT, work on their core more etc.. when prior to the RFA they are limited in what exercises they can do due to pain. Still, I limit this in younger patients, but I often see younger patients getting much longer relief, often years and years from RFAs.
 
I do rfa on under forty patients. They have had positive dbl blocks. Imaging with facet arthritis. If it doesn’t work the nerve grows back.
Agree with this. These are my thoughts.

1- multifidi aren’t alone , these patients will retain the entire erector spinal muscle group.
2- if desired, add spine stabilization exercises to your RF protocol
3- why all the pearl clutching over a REVERSIBLE procedure after which the nerve grows back in a year?
4- if you or the patient are truly worried about multifidus atrophy, then offer them facet injections with steroid or PRP for cash.

There is no magic wand, but all of the above are better options than an expensive medical device implanted in your body, that will require battery changes and other expensive and invasive medical procedures in the future.
 
Last edited:
Agree with this. These are my thoughts.
You back dude? Haven’t seen you here in awhile
1- multifidus aren’t alone , these patients will retain the entire erector spinal muscle group.
2- if desired, add spine stabilization exercises to your RF protocol
3- why all the pearl clutching over a REVERSIBLE procedure after which the nerve grows back in a year?
4- if you or the patient are truly worried about multifidus atrophy, then offer them facet injections with steroid or PRP for cash.

There is no magic wand, but all of the above are better options than an expensive medical device implanted in your body, that will require battery changes and other expensive and invasive medical procedures in the future.

You back dude? Haven’t seen you on here in awhile
 
Do the PT. If the pain is still too much despite good PT with a HEP, then do the bloody RFA. I believe the increased mobility and activity levels from being in less pain develop the peripheral musculature that ALSO maintains spine health. You're picking the lesser of two evils.

However, doing the RFA, without first conveying to the patient the importance of PT is less than ideal.
 
Do the PT. If the pain is still too much despite good PT with a HEP, then do the bloody RFA. I believe the increased mobility and activity levels from being in less pain develop the peripheral musculature that ALSO maintains spine health. You're picking the lesser of two evils.

However, doing the RFA, without first conveying to the patient the importance of PT is less than ideal.
I would rather advocate for my 80 year olds with low back pain and not force them into 6 weeks of PT where heather the therapist will chew gum and have them go in the corner and stretch for an hour..

To quote drusso..”if I was an 80 year old with low back pain I’d be pissed.”

I’ll play the game though..”patient attempted PT with significant exacerbation of symptoms causing functional decline.”
 
I would rather advocate for my 80 year olds with low back pain and not force them into 6 weeks of PT where heather the therapist will chew gum and have them go in the corner and stretch for an hour..

To quote drusso..”if I was an 80 year old with low back pain I’d be pissed.”

I’ll play the game though..”patient attempted PT with significant exacerbation of symptoms causing functional decline.”
Ooooo I like that phrase. I'm going to copy it! Thank you sir