Kobe analogy

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Lecithin5

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I’m reading more about the NTSB’s findings in the tragic Kobe copter crash. In anesthesiology we love pilot analogies, as they are very a propos. Sounds like by all accounts the pilot pushed the limits and should not have been flying. However, there is this notion that he may have been pressured to do so, perhaps implicitly, given Kobe’s celebrity status etc.

Kind of reminds me of anesthesia- you may feel some pressure to proceed with a case that you think needs to be delayed/canceled due to pressures (be it from the surgeon, patient, etc), but you better believe that if anything goes wrong, the surgeon (or pt family member etc) will be the FIRST person to throw you under the bus. Kind of like Vanessa Bryant. There is no loyalty. Nor should there be. Nor should it be expected. So do the right thing. You may hear the complaints etc, but at the end of the day, you owe it to yourself and your patients to what is right.
 
I’m reading more about the NTSB’s findings in the tragic Kobe copter crash. In anesthesiology we love pilot analogies, as they are very a propos. Sounds like by all accounts the pilot pushed the limits and should not have been flying. However, there is this notion that he may have been pressured to do so, perhaps implicitly, given Kobe’s celebrity status etc.

Kind of reminds me of anesthesia- you may feel some pressure to proceed with a case that you think needs to be delayed/canceled due to pressures (be it from the surgeon, patient, etc), but you better believe that if anything goes wrong, the surgeon (or pt family member etc) will be the FIRST person to throw you under the bus. Kind of like Vanessa Bryant. There is no loyalty. Nor should there be. Nor should it be expected. So do the right thing. You may hear the complaints etc, but at the end of the day, you owe it to yourself and your patients to what is right.

The first mistake people make is assume that the surgeons or other people at work are your friends. They aren't. There are many motivations out there. Nothing wrong with being friendly, but agree it js important to do what you feel is right.. I've seen plenty of my colleagues get thrown under the bus by these nice surgeons.
 
I’m reading more about the NTSB’s findings in the tragic Kobe copter crash. In anesthesiology we love pilot analogies, as they are very a propos. Sounds like by all accounts the pilot pushed the limits and should not have been flying. However, there is this notion that he may have been pressured to do so, perhaps implicitly, given Kobe’s celebrity status etc.

Kind of reminds me of anesthesia- you may feel some pressure to proceed with a case that you think needs to be delayed/canceled due to pressures (be it from the surgeon, patient, etc), but you better believe that if anything goes wrong, the surgeon (or pt family member etc) will be the FIRST person to throw you under the bus. Kind of like Vanessa Bryant. There is no loyalty. Nor should there be. Nor should it be expected. So do the right thing. You may hear the complaints etc, but at the end of the day, you owe it to yourself and your patients to what is right.
100% agree. The further and further I get in my career the less I care about being pressured into doing the wrong thing for a patient. I always emphasize the safety of the patient first and if someone doesn't like it then kindly ask me to leave. I'll find work somewhere. Thankfully the vast majority at my place don't fall into this category as they want to keep their records clean as well.
 
The first mistake people make is assume that the surgeons or other people at work are your friends. They aren't. There are many motivations out there. Nothing wrong with being friendly, but agree it js important to do what you feel is right.. I've seen plenty of my colleagues get thrown under the bus by these nice surgeons.
Absolutely. Hell, some of your own colleagues may toss you under the bus
 
Pressured or not, an experienced commercial helicopter pilot should be able to use his instruments properly when visual landmarks are lost. I am a fixed wing pilot visually rated that briefly took up the hobby when living in consistently gorgeous west coast weather. As a visual pilot you use your instruments but rely mostly on sight. If you lose visual orientation you will typically go JFK,jr because you don't have the skill level to rely 100% on instrumentals. Sounds easy to constantly scan the six major instrumentals the way we scan our monitors. It's not if you aren't trained sufficiently for it.

What I can't understand for the life of me is how this commercial pilot with such extensively described experience could not use his instruments successfully to keep his chopper level. Makes me think if I ever do chopper flying or small charter planes to ask the pilot are you fully capable of staying upright in lost visual orientation? It's something I think everybody assumes, but clearly not always correctly.
 
Pressured or not, an experienced commercial helicopter pilot should be able to use his instruments properly when visual landmarks are lost. I am a fixed wing pilot visually rated that briefly took up the hobby when living in consistently gorgeous west coast weather. As a visual pilot you use your instruments but rely mostly on sight. If you lose visual orientation you will typically go JFK,jr because you don't have the skill level to rely 100% on instrumentals. Sounds easy to constantly scan the six major instrumentals the way we scan our monitors. It's not if you aren't trained sufficiently for it.

What I can't understand for the life of me is how this commercial pilot with such extensively described experience could not use his instruments successfully to keep his chopper level. Makes me think if I ever do chopper flying or small charter planes to ask the pilot are you fully capable of staying upright in lost visual orientation? It's something I think everybody assumes, but clearly not always correctly.
So there are a couple aspects of this. First of all inadvertent flight into IMC in a helicopter is much more dangerous and much less common than in a fixed wing aircraft. It's almost a chicken or the egg scenario; it is more dangerous because it is less common, and it is less common because people really try to avoid this because it's more dangerous. A commercial pilot of a fixed winged aircraft with similar flight hours to this helicopter pilot would fly in IMC all the time, albeit most of these hours would be intentional flight into IMC. However, flying in IMC in helicopters is pretty much reserved for two pilot situations in the military.

Maybe a better way to explain this is the difference in protocol between helicopters and fixed winged aircraft's during inadvertent flight into IMC. If an instrument rated fixed wing pilot is flying a VFR flight plan and flies into IMC, they will continue their current heading, altitude, and airspeed, contact ATC, and request vectors to VFR. Basically all they have to do is not panic and keep the wings level. As an aside, a commercial fixed wing aircraft will probably just file for an IFR flight plan, especially in the busy airspace around LA. It would just be safer and easier. However in a helicopter, the procedure is more complex. The training that this pilot received, and that he taught other pilots, and was procedure at his company was the following: reduce forward airspeed to zero (i.e. enter a hover), maintain neutral position to horizon, and gain altitude to punch out of the clouds. Unfortunately he did not follow this protocol during the accident. He tried to gain altitude while also having a positive forward airspeed, so instead of trying to punch out of the clouds going straight up, he tried to punch out going forward and up at the same time. This would've worked except...there was a mountain in the way 🙁

Finally, there are three other unique things to helicopter operations that contributed here. The first is for whatever reason it's really common to be single pilot in commercial helicopter operations. Anyone with as much money as Kobe, but really anyone, should only fly commercial when the operation is always dual pilot. There are multiple reasons for this such as pilot incapacitation, but really the more common and important reason is that having a second pilot reduces the workload for the pilot flying. The second pilot can handle communications, navigation, and other workload in the cockpit. The second thing is that as far as I'm aware, this helicopter was not equipped with a TAWS or Train Avoidance and Warning System. The system would've warned the pilot that he was about to fly into a hillside. The third thing is that helicopter operations are often done at much lower altitudes than fixed wing flights. This is are a number of reasons, but obviously low altitude flying is pretty sketchy in a hilly area like where the crash occurred.

A bad anesthesiology analogy out of this, especially when I am just a medical student, would be this: inadvertent flight into IMC in a fixed wing aircraft is like going for a DL intubation and then realizing that you need to use VL instead. Yeah it's not ideal, probably would've been better to see the future and know that you needed to start with VL (and the flying world equivalent of this would just be to always fly IFR). But sometimes there are instances where DL is normal and low risk, and also VL is something anesthesiologists get plenty of practice with. So it's not like the backup plan is some fringe event that you only train a few times for a year at most. But in a helicopter, inadvertent flight into IMC is more like a can't intubate can't ventilate situation that leads to a surgical airway. Yes technically anesthesiologists are trained to do a cric, but it was probably something you've only done a few times in your career at most, for many people it will be something you have only done in simulation or on a cadaver. On top of that, it is so uncommon there is going to be a much bigger adrenaline dump. Even the best trained anesthesiologist or pilot will feel a little more flustered and might not react in the exact way you were trained.

Thank you for coming to my fixed wing vs helicopter inadvertent flight into IMC Ted talk 😀
 
I’m reading more about the NTSB’s findings in the tragic Kobe copter crash. In anesthesiology we love pilot analogies, as they are very a propos. Sounds like by all accounts the pilot pushed the limits and should not have been flying. However, there is this notion that he may have been pressured to do so, perhaps implicitly, given Kobe’s celebrity status etc.

Kind of reminds me of anesthesia- you may feel some pressure to proceed with a case that you think needs to be delayed/canceled due to pressures (be it from the surgeon, patient, etc), but you better believe that if anything goes wrong, the surgeon (or pt family member etc) will be the FIRST person to throw you under the bus. Kind of like Vanessa Bryant. There is no loyalty. Nor should there be. Nor should it be expected. So do the right thing. You may hear the complaints etc, but at the end of the day, you owe it to yourself and your patients to what is right.
Yes and this applies to any field
 
Pressured or not, an experienced commercial helicopter pilot should be able to use his instruments properly when visual landmarks are lost. I am a fixed wing pilot visually rated that briefly took up the hobby when living in consistently gorgeous west coast weather. As a visual pilot you use your instruments but rely mostly on sight. If you lose visual orientation you will typically go JFK,jr because you don't have the skill level to rely 100% on instrumentals. Sounds easy to constantly scan the six major instrumentals the way we scan our monitors. It's not if you aren't trained sufficiently for it.

What I can't understand for the life of me is how this commercial pilot with such extensively described experience could not use his instruments successfully to keep his chopper level. Makes me think if I ever do chopper flying or small charter planes to ask the pilot are you fully capable of staying upright in lost visual orientation? It's something I think everybody assumes, but clearly not always correctly.
Wow. This is the first normal post I think I have ever read from you. That Trump mania had you in the deep end.
Glad to see you are mentally OK.
 
So there are a couple aspects of this. First of all inadvertent flight into IMC in a helicopter is much more dangerous and much less common than in a fixed wing aircraft. It's almost a chicken or the egg scenario; it is more dangerous because it is less common, and it is less common because people really try to avoid this because it's more dangerous. A commercial pilot of a fixed winged aircraft with similar flight hours to this helicopter pilot would fly in IMC all the time, albeit most of these hours would be intentional flight into IMC. However, flying in IMC in helicopters is pretty much reserved for two pilot situations in the military.

Maybe a better way to explain this is the difference in protocol between helicopters and fixed winged aircraft's during inadvertent flight into IMC. If an instrument rated fixed wing pilot is flying a VFR flight plan and flies into IMC, they will continue their current heading, altitude, and airspeed, contact ATC, and request vectors to VFR. Basically all they have to do is not panic and keep the wings level. As an aside, a commercial fixed wing aircraft will probably just file for an IFR flight plan, especially in the busy airspace around LA. It would just be safer and easier. However in a helicopter, the procedure is more complex. The training that this pilot received, and that he taught other pilots, and was procedure at his company was the following: reduce forward airspeed to zero (i.e. enter a hover), maintain neutral position to horizon, and gain altitude to punch out of the clouds. Unfortunately he did not follow this protocol during the accident. He tried to gain altitude while also having a positive forward airspeed, so instead of trying to punch out of the clouds going straight up, he tried to punch out going forward and up at the same time. This would've worked except...there was a mountain in the way 🙁

Finally, there are three other unique things to helicopter operations that contributed here. The first is for whatever reason it's really common to be single pilot in commercial helicopter operations. Anyone with as much money as Kobe, but really anyone, should only fly commercial when the operation is always dual pilot. There are multiple reasons for this such as pilot incapacitation, but really the more common and important reason is that having a second pilot reduces the workload for the pilot flying. The second pilot can handle communications, navigation, and other workload in the cockpit. The second thing is that as far as I'm aware, this helicopter was not equipped with a TAWS or Train Avoidance and Warning System. The system would've warned the pilot that he was about to fly into a hillside. The third thing is that helicopter operations are often done at much lower altitudes than fixed wing flights. This is are a number of reasons, but obviously low altitude flying is pretty sketchy in a hilly area like where the crash occurred.

A bad anesthesiology analogy out of this, especially when I am just a medical student, would be this: inadvertent flight into IMC in a fixed wing aircraft is like going for a DL intubation and then realizing that you need to use VL instead. Yeah it's not ideal, probably would've been better to see the future and know that you needed to start with VL (and the flying world equivalent of this would just be to always fly IFR). But sometimes there are instances where DL is normal and low risk, and also VL is something anesthesiologists get plenty of practice with. So it's not like the backup plan is some fringe event that you only train a few times for a year at most. But in a helicopter, inadvertent flight into IMC is more like a can't intubate can't ventilate situation that leads to a surgical airway. Yes technically anesthesiologists are trained to do a cric, but it was probably something you've only done a few times in your career at most, for many people it will be something you have only done in simulation or on a cadaver. On top of that, it is so uncommon there is going to be a much bigger adrenaline dump. Even the best trained anesthesiologist or pilot will feel a little more flustered and might not react in the exact way you were trained.

Thank you for coming to my fixed wing vs helicopter inadvertent flight into IMC Ted talk 😀
Great elaboration! Thank you.

I believe they actually went into a descent before impact, ie basically really lost control of the situation and a warning system may have simply let them know, yes you will smash into a mountain.

Completely understand your explanation of the rarity of the event. Makes me think a commercial pilot should be extra diligent to spend more time in the simulator as well as flying with the blinders on and an instructor, no? I'm not saying it's easy and we all screw up both complex and the simplest things, just saying I think it's more complicated than what I see reported, "He got visually disoriented."

Cheers!
 
Btw, Received this in my quarterly newsletter a couple of decades ago when I was doing my occasional ocean/mountain joy riding in the sky on bluebird days. It was about the most terrifying thing I've ever read. That last line... Wow. Left me shaking with a severe case of cloudophobia. The slightest minimal hint of cumulus/fog formation and I was like, "Landing!"

"You open your mouth to scream... but you have no seconds left!!"
 

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Btw, Received this in my quarterly newsletter a couple of decades ago when I was doing my occasional ocean/mountain joy riding in the sky on bluebird days. It was about the most terrifying thing I've ever read. That last line... Wow. Left me shaking with a severe case of cloudophobia. The slightest minimal hint of cumulus/fog formation and I was like, "Landing!"

"You open your mouth to scream... but you have no seconds left!!"

My friend is a fighter pilot and said this happens even to them. He said once he was flying in the middle of the night and felt like he was in an inverted dive and had to ask his wingman to reassure him that he was flying straight and even because his body disagreed with the controls.
 
896BF472-E392-4EFD-ABBD-AB159377EF2F.jpeg
 
Btw, Received this in my quarterly newsletter a couple of decades ago when I was doing my occasional ocean/mountain joy riding in the sky on bluebird days. It was about the most terrifying thing I've ever read. That last line... Wow. Left me shaking with a severe case of cloudophobia. The slightest minimal hint of cumulus/fog formation and I was like, "Landing!"

"You open your mouth to scream... but you have no seconds left!!"
This is particularly poignant for me knowing someone who has died flying in this situation.
 
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