Kobe Bryant

[HalO'Thane]

Although I was never a huge Kobe Bryant fan myself (Chicago native who always got defensive about the Michael Jordan comparisons), I was still pretty shocked about his passing. He was close to me in age and I could still always appreciate his amazing accomplishments and the fact that he was adored by millions across the globe. He also seemed to have many talents outside of basketball that he was just starting to delve into. It is of course even more sad that his daughter (along with other friends) were with him.

I know that some of you on this site have private airplane pilot's licenses. Not sure if any of you have helicopter licenses. It seems to me that a disproportionate number of wealthy people die in private airplane and helicopter crashes than they ever would flying on a commercial jet. I believe the data backs that up as well. For those that fly, does hearing stories like these (and JFK Jr, John Denver, Aaliyah, etc.) ever make you think twice about flying on your own?

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[Mikkel]

Although I was never a huge Kobe Bryant fan myself (Chicago native who always got defensive about the Michael Jordan comparisons), I was still pretty shocked about his passing. He was close to me in age and I could still always appreciate his amazing accomplishments and the fact that he was adored by millions across the globe. He also seemed to have many talents outside of basketball that he was just starting to delve into. It is of course even more sad that his daughter (along with other friends) were with him.

I know that some of you on this site have private airplane pilot's licenses. Not sure if any of you have helicopter licenses. It seems to me that a disproportionate number of wealthy people die in private airplane and helicopter crashes than they ever would flying on a commercial jet. I believe the data backs that up as well. For those that fly, does hearing stories like these (and JFK Jr, John Denver, Aaliyah, etc.) ever make you think twice about flying on your own?

There's inherent risk in anything in life.

You can modify your plans to mitigate risk.

Flying in IMC as a VFR only pilot, to get your passengers to a specific place at a specific time, is very unwise, as you can see from Kobe's accident.

We should keep that in mind in our anesthetics as well. Patients lives are at stake.

 

[btbam]

Are we supposed to know what those acronyms mean?

 

[chocomorsel]

Are we supposed to know what those acronyms mean?

Clearly you aren’t a pilot. Or you would know.
I am sorta clueless as well. Something to do with Radar versus just visual. My ex was a pilot. Or so he said.

 

[deleted941485]

Had 2 colleagues over the last 10 years both had pilots licenses. Both died along with members of their families. Seems to be an unlucky combination of inexperience and impatience.

I’ll stick with car, train, and commercial air travel.

 

[jwk]

Are we supposed to know what those acronyms mean?

IMC = instrument meteorological conditions
VFR = visual flight rules

Even if you're an instrument rated pilot - flying in fog isn't that smart unless you're actually flying on instruments. Helicopters typically are not flown on instruments.

 

[caligas]

My wife saw the news and told me no more heli-skiing.

 

[jwk]

Had 2 colleagues over the last 10 years both had pilots licenses. Both died along with members of their families. Seems to be an unlucky combination of inexperience and impatience.

I’ll stick with car, train, and commercial air travel.

I've known docs who were exceptional pilots, who would never put themselves or their families in jeopardy flying when they shouldn't be or without necessary equipment. But a lot of doc pilots are cowboys - perfectly willing to take unnecessary chances flying when weather is bad or flying without necessary equipment (for example flying to the Bahamas without any water-landing survival gear).

 

[pgg]

Was he the pilot? I know he had a helicopter that he commuted in often but am not clear if he had a pilot or if he flew it himself.

I obtained a private cert when I was in high school, flew a little via my university's flying club but couldn't afford to do it as often as I felt was necessary to stay proficient. I quit flying after a couple years of that and haven't gone back. Maybe some day - but probably not. Controlled flight into terrain seems to get a lot of wealthy and/or celebrity part time pilots. 🙁

 

[chocomorsel]

Was he the pilot? I know he had a helicopter that he commuted in often but am not clear if he had a pilot or if he flew it himself.

I obtained a private cert when I was in high school, flew a little via my university's flying club but couldn't afford to do it as often as I felt was necessary to stay proficient. I quit flying after a couple years of that and haven't gone back. Maybe some day - but probably not. Controlled flight into terrain seems to get a lot of wealthy and/or celebrity part time pilots. 🙁

He had a pilot. Sounds like it was bad weather though. Lawsuits are coming. I can feel it.

 

[deleted162650]

Kobe was not the pilot. He was being flown by his usual professional pilot who was very experienced and also a flight instructor.

 

[Mikkel]

Kobe was not the pilot. He was being flown by his usual professional pilot who was very experienced and also a flight instructor.

"Experienced" and "flight instructor" mean very little as a pilot when you're bankrolled by a VIP client who expects/demands you to take to your destination as expected.

Go/no-go decision making when you're financially motivated results in suboptimal decisions, no matter how much expertise/training you have.

Investigation: Reckless Flying Caused Fatal T-45C Crash That Killed Two Naval Aviators - USNI News

This post has been updated to include additional information from the office of the Commander of Naval Air Forces. The Navy determined that aggressive and unsafe behaviors by the instructor pilot and the student naval aviator led to a T-45C Goshawk training aircraft crash in October. Despite the...

news.usni.org

Redirect Notice

Oxford plane crash: flight instructor calls teen pilot's death 'totally preventable' - ARFFWG | ARFF Working Group

Phillip Jackson and Daniel Connolly, Memphis Commercial Appeal A federal investigative agency has released a preliminary report on the July 6 small plane crash that killed an 18-year-old student pilot in Oxford, Mississippi, and a flight instructor says he believes the young woman’s death was...

arffwg.org

 

[anaesthetic]

ATC recording of the flight is on YouTube. Foggy conditions + hovering/standby for 15-20 minutes for other planes + pressure to get to point B + flying low/fast = bad combination. Looks like the pilot tried to 180 when conditions worsened and did it into the hillside.

 

[btbam]

We had a older plastic surgeon die a few years ago flying his own prop plane. No thanks, not for me.

 

[deleted162650]

ATC recording of the flight is on YouTube. Foggy conditions + hovering/standby for 15-20 minutes for other planes + pressure to get to point B + flying low/fast = bad combination. Looks like the pilot tried to 180 when conditions worsened and did it into the hillside.

Too bad 😢 especially with 3 kids on board. I hope it happened fast with minimal suffering.

 

[killerleaf]

IMO only: in theory, helicopters should not even be able to get off the ground, nevermind fly; and they have the glide path of a rock. I just don't trust them.

 

[Apollyon]

IMO only: in theory, helicopters should not even be able to get off the ground, nevermind fly; and they have the glide path of a rock. I just don't trust them.

Well, what is that saying? "Helicopters don't fly, as much as beat the air into submission."

 

[Mikkel]

IMO only: in theory, helicopters should not even be able to get off the ground, nevermind fly; and they have the glide path of a rock. I just don't trust them.

If you're in the right parameters, landing a helicopter with complete engine failure is easier than an airplane with complete engine failure.

Autorotation - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

But your theory about the theory of helicopter flight is wrong. It flies for the same reason planes do: lift.

 

[killerleaf]

If you're in the right parameters, landing a helicopter with complete engine failure is easier than an airplane with complete engine failure.

You hit it right on the head: Right Parameters. which happen about as often as you see a unicorn.

 

[deleted162650]

Well, what is that saying? "Helicopters don't fly, as much as beat the air into submission."

There's another saying about not wanting to be in any aircraft where the wings fly faster than the fuselage.

All of that is a moot point when you fly directly into a hillside though I guess.

 

[Mikkel]

You hit it right on the head: Right Parameters. which happen about as often as you see a unicorn.

No, the parameters are not rare:

 

[Aether2000]

If I recall correctly, the pilot was flying at 160 knots when he crashed into the mountain. He was clearly in a hurry in low visibility conditions. The group was on their way to a girls basketball game and had been holding for 15 min hovering in place to allow other airplanes to clear the airspace. As for danger piloting small planes- doctors are absolutely more apt to crash. Here is a guy that crashed not only once killing his wife and a kid, crashed again later with a new wife killing her and himself. Doctor-pilot dies in 2nd fatal plane crash

 

[chocomorsel]

If I recall correctly, the pilot was flying at 160 knots when he crashed into the mountain. He was clearly in a hurry in low visibility conditions. The group was on their way to a girls basketball game and had been holding for 15 min hovering in place to allow other airplanes to clear the airspace. As for danger piloting small planes- doctors are absolutely more apt to crash. Here is a guy that crashed not only once killing his wife and a kid, crashed again later with a new wife killing her and himself. Doctor-pilot dies in 2nd fatal plane crash

Damn, didn’t learn the first time. And his second wife got on the plane with him after knowing about the first wife and kids?
No thanks. No small private planes for me. And no helicopters. When I lived in Vegas I refused to do the Helicopter tours. Only the express commercial jets that I need to travel to smaller towns for locums. That’s small enough.

 

[zizzer]

Fixed-wing pilots have a lot of sayings about helicopters. My flight instructor used to say, "Helicopters don't fly; they're just so ugly the ground repels them." I think the "glide path of a rock" comment was just a similar type of joke.

Physicians have a terrible reputation amongst aviation circles. My dad is a physician and pilot in his 70s with many thousands of flying hours and never advertises the former when meeting new pilots. I think it has to do a lot with the overconfidence aspect some doctors have. I would expect anesthesiologists to operate aircraft a bit safer than surgeons on average, but that's all a guess.

Two lessons I've learned from my dad about flying:

1. If you absolutely must be somewhere, don't fly. You'll be tempted to make bad decisions.
2. "It's better to be down here wishing you were up there than to be up there wishing you were down here."

Here's the ATC audio from Bryant's helicopter crash:

.

The last few seconds are chilling.

 

[chocomorsel]

I don’t get how the last few seconds are chilling. It just went silent. No screaming for help, no mayday, just radio silence. Maybe I am cold. I was expecting more drama.

 

[Aether2000]

I surmise running into a mountain at 160 kts in foggy weather would be quite sudden with no time for reaction by anyone. I have seen stats that commercial airplanes are 100x as safe as small private aircraft. Here are the 2018 stats for general aviation: US small plane crash fatalities increased in 2018, NTSB says

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

Fixed-wing pilots have a lot of sayings about helicopters. My flight instructor used to say, "Helicopters don't fly; they're just so ugly the ground repels them." I think the "glide path of a rock" comment was just a similar type of joke.

Physicians have a terrible reputation amongst aviation circles. My dad is a physician and pilot in his 70s with many thousands of flying hours and never advertises the former when meeting new pilots. I think it has to do a lot with the overconfidence aspect some doctors have. I would expect anesthesiologists to operate aircraft a bit safer than surgeons on average, but that's all a guess.

Two lessons I've learned from my dad about flying:

1. If you absolutely must be somewhere, don't fly. You'll be tempted to make bad decisions.
2. "It's better to be down here wishing you were up there than to be up there wishing you were down here."

Here's the ATC audio from Bryant's helicopter crash:

.

The last few seconds are chilling.

Those are 2 very interesting points.

I have no flying experience, and so can only come at it from an anesthesiologists' perspective. The only thing that really stood out to me in the audio was that there were lots of transitions (3 different towers, I believe), and the helicopter went down during the switch to the 3rd tower. I'm sure that many handoffs is routine, but just thought I'd point that out.

Otherwise, it seemed like everything else checked out. Everyone was very calm, lots of closed-loop communication, everyone seemed to understand and agree with the plans, etc. Hard to know exactly what went wrong in those last few seconds.

 

[AMEHigh]

My close family member is a pilot, former military. He now flies for fun and works at an aviation company.
For this family member, no these crashes don't deter them at all.
I personally never fly with my family member because it does make me a little nervous.
I fly commercial jets all the time and even the smaller planes while on vacation and don't get nervous, but nope don't really plan to fly with my family member. I will also never get in a helicopter.
My family member has talked about risks with helicopters.
So for experienced pilots, no I don't think these crashes deter one too much.

 

[zizzer]

I don’t get how the last few seconds are chilling. It just went silent. No screaming for help, no mayday, just radio silence. Maybe I am cold. I was expecting more drama.

You're right, I guess. The pilot had been promptly responding before and then just stopped. Maybe unsettling is a better word, especially when considered with the videos I've seen of eyewitness testimony of the crash.

 

[lunaire]

There are some ATC videos on youtube that can give lay people some good information on this crash.

The helicopter flew into a fog during a visual flight rule flight plan. The pilot recognized this and tried to turn back, but were unable to clear the hilly terrain (that he could not see because of the fog). I doubt the pilot or passenger has any idea they were going to crash until it actually happened. It was probably quick and painless. Most likely a lapse of judgment on the pilot's part, but ATC also failed to provide sufficient warning, imo.

But yeah, general aviation's rate of accident is probably the same to slightly higher than automobile accidents. You should be aware of this risk when you board these small aircrafts.

 

[pgg]

I don’t get how the last few seconds are chilling. It just went silent. No screaming for help, no mayday, just radio silence. Maybe I am cold. I was expecting more drama.

You want chilling, read the flight recorder transcript from Air France 447.

Air France Flight 447 Crashed Into the Atlantic in 2009. It’s Still One of Aviation’s Greatest Mysteries

Black-box revelations from the June 2009 crash paint a surprising picture of the chaos in the cockpit that led to one of aviation’s greatest mysteries.

www.popularmechanics.com

😱

 

[coffeebythelake]

You want chilling, read the flight recorder transcript from Air France 447.

Air France Flight 447 Crashed Into the Atlantic in 2009. It’s Still One of Aviation’s Greatest Mysteries

Black-box revelations from the June 2009 crash paint a surprising picture of the chaos in the cockpit that led to one of aviation’s greatest mysteries.

www.popularmechanics.com

😱

Yeah it is definitely v creepy reading about Air France 447

 

[deleted59964]

"Experienced" and "flight instructor" mean very little as a pilot when you're bankrolled by a VIP client who expects/demands you to take to your destination as expected.

Go/no-go decision making when you're financially motivated results in suboptimal decisions, no matter how much expertise/training you have.

Investigation: Reckless Flying Caused Fatal T-45C Crash That Killed Two Naval Aviators - USNI News

This post has been updated to include additional information from the office of the Commander of Naval Air Forces. The Navy determined that aggressive and unsafe behaviors by the instructor pilot and the student naval aviator led to a T-45C Goshawk training aircraft crash in October. Despite the...

news.usni.org

Redirect Notice

Oxford plane crash: flight instructor calls teen pilot's death 'totally preventable' - ARFFWG | ARFF Working Group

Phillip Jackson and Daniel Connolly, Memphis Commercial Appeal A federal investigative agency has released a preliminary report on the July 6 small plane crash that killed an 18-year-old student pilot in Oxford, Mississippi, and a flight instructor says he believes the young woman’s death was...

arffwg.org

and the aviation - anaesthesia similarities just keep rolling on ...

 

[caligas]

ATC recording of the flight is on YouTube. Foggy conditions + hovering/standby for 15-20 minutes for other planes + pressure to get to point B + flying low/fast = bad combination. Looks like the pilot tried to 180 when conditions worsened and did it into the hillside.

production pressure.

Redirect Notice

I skied with this company years ago, and the Rumor/scoop was that they tried to cancel flying for the day but Wells pressured the pilot/company.

 

[jwk]

If you're in the right parameters, landing a helicopter with complete engine failure is easier than an airplane with complete engine failure.

Autorotation - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Hmmm, you'll have to explain that one to me. I'm a "retired" admittedly low time private pilot. I did simulated power-off landings during flight training. The main issue is keeping your head and finding a safe spot to land. Small planes in particular (think Cessna 172) have glide ratios in the 9-10:1 range. Helicopters are something like 3-4:1. So I'm just trying to figure out how it's easier in a helicopter than a plane except not having to have some sort of runway.

That being said - high speed flight into terrain you can't see (which seems like what happened with Kobe's flight) will kill you regardless of whether it's a helicopter or plane.

 

[Mikkel]

Hmmm, you'll have to explain that one to me. I'm a "retired" admittedly low time private pilot. I did simulated power-off landings during flight training. The main issue is keeping your head and finding a safe spot to land. Small planes in particular (think Cessna 172) have glide ratios in the 9-10:1 range. Helicopters are something like 3-4:1. So I'm just trying to figure out how it's easier in a helicopter than a plane except not having to have some sort of runway.

That being said - high speed flight into terrain you can't see (which seems like what happened with Kobe's flight) will kill you regardless of whether it's a helicopter or plane.

Surviving a no engine descent in a helicopter is easy (assuming you're able to autorotate) because your main vector is down into your seat, and you're able to find a tiny patch of flat unobstructed ground easier compared to a large stretch of airplane-landable surface.

With an airplane, you have significant forward speed, so any sudden change will direct your body/head into unsafe surfaces. Landing in a field with ruts will flip your plane, landing on a narrow road but hitting and obstacle with your wing will spin or flip your plane, colliding with trees in dense forest will send branches through your cockpit windscreen, etc.

 

[coffeebythelake]

VIP syndrome is a real thing.

This is why I hate it when the hospital labels certain patients as VIP. It creates unnecessary and undue pressure to please the patient at the expense of safety. We shouldnt be treating these patients different from the standard of care. But perhaps subconsciously that's what happens..

I took care of a multibillionaire a few months back, not demanding, very nice guy and personable. I only found out about it afterwards from a colleague. That's the way to do it.

 

[deleted162650]

Vip syndrome is a real thing.

I agree it’s real and detrimental to patient care. One of my wiser senior partners says that whenever he is taking care of a VIP he likes to treat them just a little bit worse (all in the name of safety).

 

[chocomorsel]

You want chilling, read the flight recorder transcript from Air France 447.

Air France Flight 447 Crashed Into the Atlantic in 2009. It’s Still One of Aviation’s Greatest Mysteries

Black-box revelations from the June 2009 crash paint a surprising picture of the chaos in the cockpit that led to one of aviation’s greatest mysteries.

www.popularmechanics.com

😱

I have heard that audio. And yes, that one sucked. The Pilot came back in too late to make a difference. That was very sad. I saw a show on that one too.

 

[AMEHigh]

There are some ATC videos on youtube that can give lay people some good information on this crash.

The helicopter flew into a fog during a visual flight rule flight plan. The pilot recognized this and tried to turn back, but were unable to clear the hilly terrain (that he could not see because of the fog). I doubt the pilot or passenger has any idea they were going to crash until it actually happened. It was probably quick and painless. Most likely a lapse of judgment on the pilot's part, but ATC also failed to provide sufficient warning, imo.

But yeah, general aviation's rate of accident is probably the same to slightly higher than automobile accidents. You should be aware of this risk when you board these small aircrafts.

Can you link the data about aviation rate of accident being higher than automobile? I’d love to read the details.

 

[deleted480308]

Can you link the data about aviation rate of accident being higher than automobile? I’d love to read the details.

I don’t think that’s true

 

[sevoflurane]

Sadness surrounding Kobe. Sux.
Risks of flying privately are 100% there. This is one of my friends plane which had a catastrophic failure mid air. I don’t fly although I take different types of risks. Just not this one.

 

[sevoflurane]

 

[deleted162650]

Sadness surrounding Kobe. Sux.
Risks of flying privately are 100% there. This is one of my friends plane which had a catastrophic failure mid air. I don’t fly although I take different types of risks. Just not this one.

If I was the one flying that plane at the time, I’m pretty sure the inside of the cockpit would’ve ended up looking just like the outside.

 

[sevoflurane]

Pretty sure it did. He was able to land it with virtually no oil and no gas and a few cylinders. Faaak me.

 

[sevoflurane]

Few weeks ago is when this happened.

 

[lunaire]

Can you link the data about aviation rate of accident being higher than automobile? I’d love to read the details.

We're talking about general aviation here, not commercial. Flying on a commercial jet is one of the safest method of travel. Flying on a single engine prop, not so much.

Why Private Planes Are Nearly As Deadly As Cars

Private air travel is far less safe than commercial flights, as highlighted by a recent string of high-profile private plane crashes.

www.livescience.com

2018 data is slightly worse.. I haven't really seen the 2019 data yet.

 

[deleted480308]

We're talking about general aviation here, not commercial. Flying on a commercial jet is one of the safest method of travel. Flying on a single engine prop, not so much.

Why Private Planes Are Nearly As Deadly As Cars

Private air travel is far less safe than commercial flights, as highlighted by a recent string of high-profile private plane crashes.

www.livescience.com

2018 data is slightly worse.. I haven't really seen the 2019 data yet.

You mean private planes, and only if compared by hours? It’s a niche comparison but point taken

 

[abolt18]

Hmmm, you'll have to explain that one to me. I'm a "retired" admittedly low time private pilot. I did simulated power-off landings during flight training. The main issue is keeping your head and finding a safe spot to land. Small planes in particular (think Cessna 172) have glide ratios in the 9-10:1 range. Helicopters are something like 3-4:1. So I'm just trying to figure out how it's easier in a helicopter than a plane except not having to have some sort of runway.

That being said - high speed flight into terrain you can't see (which seems like what happened with Kobe's flight) will kill you regardless of whether it's a helicopter or plane.

See YouTube for great videos on helicopter autorotation.

 

[AMEHigh]

We're talking about general aviation here, not commercial. Flying on a commercial jet is one of the safest method of travel. Flying on a single engine prop, not so much.

Why Private Planes Are Nearly As Deadly As Cars

Private air travel is far less safe than commercial flights, as highlighted by a recent string of high-profile private plane crashes.

www.livescience.com

2018 data is slightly worse.. I haven't really seen the 2019 data yet.

Thanks for sharing!
I do think like the article says it’s hard to compare the 2 numbers, it’s apples to oranges.

I wonder if the data is ever broken down further in regards to private pilots whom are "self-taught" vs pilots whom are professional (current or former) pilots.