Labradoodle Creator Regrets Craze He Started

[TrocarKarin]

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[ReadyBeVet]

Arghhhhh- don't get me started on the designer breeds. 😡 While his initial plight was well-warranted, this popularity for irresponsible breeding makes my skin crawl. If you want a mixed breed, visit the animal shelter. There are plenty to choose from!

Huge disregard for health, temperament, any type of health clearance. All for the almighty dollar. 😡😡

 

[nyanko]

To me, the worst thing about the designer dog stuff (and this guy didn't really start the whole designer dog thing - I remember my grandparents having a cock-a-poo that was in its teenage years when I was a baby) is that they misuse valid genetics concepts to promote the idea that owners should pay more for these dogs because they will be healthier than purebreds.

...that's great...go to a shelter for a mutt. 😡

There's no reason to be purposely breeding pomadoodlecocks or whatever

 

[lalzi22]

There's no reason to be purposely breeding pomadoodlecocks or whatever

I have to disagree. While breeding should be done responsibly, the doodle/poo thing mixes are a lifesaver for some families. They are hypoallergenic (to a point, but still a very high point). My sister is allergic to dogs and they are the only dogs she can really handle living with. The same with my boyfriend. His brother is SEVERELY allergic- he couldn't live with a greyhound, but their goldendoodle seems to not irritate his allergies too bad.

 

[nyanko]

The same with my boyfriend. His brother is SEVERELY allergic- he couldn't live with a greyhound, but their goldendoodle seems to not irritate his allergies too bad.

Why not just get a standard poodle then? The poo and doodle contingent is not even guaranteed to be "hypoallergenic."

edit: Poodles are water retrievers. Goldens and labs are water retrievers. What's the point?

 

[lalzi22]

Why not just get a standard poodle then? The poo and doodle contingent is not even guaranteed to be "hypoallergenic."

edit: Poodles are water retrievers. Goldens and labs are water retrievers. What's the point?

Poodles arent terribly great with children. Some are, but some arent- its just because they dont like to put up with crap like kids pulling their fur and stuff. My bf's fam has lots of nephew's and nieces who are always over messing with the dog. Goldendoodles tend to have easier dispositions with kids. For myself, personally, we couldn't get a standard poodle since we don't have enough of a yard for a big dog like that. If my sister werent so allergic, we would have gotten a shelter dog, but it isn't always possible.

 

[NStarz]

I love people who get a designer dog and boast about him/her to no end. I always reply with "congratulations! you just got a $2000 mutt!"

 

[nyanko]

Poodles arent terribly great with children. Some are, but some arent- its just because they dont like to put up with crap like kids pulling their fur and stuff. My bf's fam has lots of nephew's and nieces who are always over messing with the dog. Goldendoodles tend to have easier dispositions with kids. For myself, personally, we couldn't get a standard poodle since we don't have enough of a yard for a big dog like that. If my sister werent so allergic, we would have gotten a shelter dog, but it isn't always possible.

You can't say that a goldendoodle "tends to be" anything because a goldendoodle is a mix between a poodle and a golden retriever. It is a complete crapshoot as to what traits the animal will get from each parent, morphologically and behaviorally. You can only make generalizations like that within a breed because breeds have been bred for many, many generations to ensure that the offspring meet a standard.

A responsible poodle breeder who is conscientious of temperament could undoubtedly provide a puppy that when raised in an environment with children and socialized while young would be perfectly fine with them.

Do you have a goldendoodle as well? If you don't have the yard for a poodle, how do you have one for a goldendoodle?

 

[lalzi22]

You can't say that a goldendoodle "tends to be" anything because a goldendoodle is a mix between a poodle and a golden retriever. It is a complete crapshoot as to what traits the animal will get from each parent, morphologically and behaviorally. You can only make generalizations like that within a breed because breeds have been bred for many, many generations to ensure that the offspring meet a standard.

A responsible poodle breeder who is conscientious of temperament could undoubtedly provide a puppy that when raised in an environment with children and socialized while young would be perfectly fine with them.

Do you have a goldendoodle as well? If you don't have the yard for a poodle, how do you have one for a goldendoodle?

I have a shih-poo, and fyi we adopted ours from a family friend who was moving. Hes tiny.

Yes, responsible breeders can try to make a nice poodles, and dont get me wrong, there are PLENTY of nice, wonderful family dog poodles. But there are also responsible breeders who breed these 'designer dogs' not for profit but because they like that specific mutt. My bfs family wanted a true family dog and that is a goldren retriever. They are great with kids, so they got a goldendoodle. My bfs fam went to a great breeder and got their dog who is a doll.

Please dont get me wrong. I believe responsible breeding is important, and just like chihuahuas in Cali, this phase will pass eventually, but for the people who have allergies, these designer dogs can be great.

 

[nyanko]

But there are also responsible breeders who breed these 'designer dogs' not for profit but because they like that specific mutt. My bfs family wanted a true family dog and that is a goldren retriever. They are great with kids, so they got a goldendoodle. My bfs fam went to a great breeder and got their dog who is a doll.

There is no such thing as a responsible breeder who breeds mutts for pet-only purposes. The definition of a responsible breeder includes proving that their dogs excel at what the breed was meant to do through actively working the animals in their original purpose (the best scenario), trial competitions in something close to the original purpose, and/or conformation/obedience competition for toy breeds. Some mixed breeds like lurchers can have a purpose, but as far as 'family pets' go, you don't need a specific breed of dog. There are plenty of other breeds that have less tendencies towards causing allergies as well.

And you missed my point. Just because golden retrievers as a breed have a tendency to be good with children does not mean that any mix that is only half golden retriever will have the same tendency. Any given puppy could just as soon have the temperament of the poodle parent, same as it could have the coat or size or muzzle shape or ear shape of the poodle parent.

 

[NStarz]

I have a shih-poo, and fyi we adopted ours from a family friend who was moving. Hes tiny.

Yes, responsible breeders can try to make a nice poodles, and dont get me wrong, there are PLENTY of nice, wonderful family dog poodles. But there are also responsible breeders who breed these 'designer dogs' not for profit but because they like that specific mutt. My bfs family wanted a true family dog and that is a goldren retriever. They are great with kids, so they got a goldendoodle. My bfs fam went to a great breeder and got their dog who is a doll.

Please dont get me wrong. I believe responsible breeding is important, and just like chihuahuas in Cali, this phase will pass eventually, but for the people who have allergies, these designer dogs can be great.

What happens to the "non-shedding" mixes that aren't hypo-allergenic? Like that article said, only 3 out of 10 in that specific case were hypoallergenic. Does a family want golden-doodle that isn't hypo-allergenic? Probably not. These dogs will end up in shelters or will be killed by irresponsible backyard breeders who are just in it for the money.

I agree that kids with allergies deserve to have dogs. Why not do an overnight with a shelter dog to see if they can live with him/her? Or get an animal (poodle, wheaten terrier, shih tzu, etc) from a responsible breeder that can trace the dog's lineage and account for its temperament.

Designer breeds are just adding to the pet overpopulation problem and will eventually be massed produced in puppy mills (if they're not already), where the temperament of the dog cannot be acounted for with any certainty. Or they'll end up in shelters and may be adopted (but they'll cause the other, not so designer-y breeds to not be adopted.)

JMO

ETA: (In response to Nyanko) Breeders breed for the breed, as you said. If the breed is not AKC registered, it will not be bred by a responsible breeder, including all the 'designer' mixes. Therefore, those dogs are coming from 1) chance matings (HIGHLY unlikely, given the number of them) or 2) irresponsible backyard breeders who are only looking to make a buck.

 

[lalzi22]

What happens to the "non-shedding" mixes that aren't hypo-allergenic? Like that article said, only 3 out of 10 in that specific case were hypoallergenic. Does a family want golden-doodle that isn't hypo-allergenic? Probably not. These dogs will end up in shelters or will be killed by irresponsible backyard breeders who are just in it for the money.

I agree that kids with allergies deserve to have dogs. Why not do an overnight with a shelter dog to see if they can live with him/her? Or get an animal (poodle, wheaten terrier, shih tzu, etc) from a responsible breeder that can trace the dog's lineage and account for its temperament.

Designer breeds are just adding to the pet overpopulation problem and will eventually be massed produced in puppy mills (if they're not already), where the temperament of the dog cannot be acounted for with any certainty. Or they'll end up in shelters and may be adopted (but they'll cause the other, not so designer-y breeds to not be adopted.)

JMO

I agree 100%. They need to be bred responsibly. My bf's breeder allowed the puppy to go home with the family for a week (a full WEEK) to make sure the dog was hypo-allergenic enough for the family. That is responsible breeding IMO. I don't want to see these dogs produced en masse, but I think they are a nice pet for kids who cant have a normal dog.

 

[lalzi22]

And you missed my point. Just because golden retrievers as a breed have a tendency to be good with children does not mean that any mix that is only half golden retriever will have the same tendency. Any given puppy could just as soon have the temperament of the poodle parent, same as it could have the coat or size or muzzle shape or ear shape of the poodle parent.

There are responsible breeder who can breed because they like the breed, even if the breed is a mutt. As I said to NStarz, my bfs breeder allowed the family to take the puppy home for a week to make sure the brother could live with it. They were also allowed regular visits to the breeder after the puppy was born, so they were there for her whole life.

And, I AGREE. I never said "poodles suck! They are all mean" I said some poodles are nice, some arent. It has to do with breeding, how they are raised, and probably a bit of chance. My bfs fam got a goldlendoddle because they had done 6 months worth of research with a veterinarian and determined, WITH THE VETS, that a poodle was not what they were looking for in terms of their family dynamics. They did reserach on breeders, met with multiple breeders before they found theirs. They are responsible. Most people are not. I am aware that many designer dog breeders are looking for a buck, but not all are, and these dogs can be great for certain families when there is a need. Its all about responsible breeding.

 

[nyanko]

There are responsible breeder who can breed because they like the breed, even if the breed is a mutt. As I said to NStarz, my bfs breeder allowed the family to take the puppy home for a week to make sure the brother could live with it. They were also allowed regular visits to the breeder after the puppy was born, so they were there for her whole life.

Okay, so what would have happened if your bf's brother was allergic to that dog? The dog goes back to the breeder, who rehomes the dog with a family who could have gone and gotten a golden retriever or shelter mutt, since it isn't hypoallergenic. Maybe no remaining puppies from that litter are allergy-friendly, so they have to breed another that may or may not have a suitable puppy in it.

A mutt is not a breed, by definition. So you can't say they like the "breed" because it doesn't exist. Sorry, but they are no better than a person who irresponsibly breeds purebred dogs. They are not a responsible breeder, regardless of what the vet says. I might cause trouble saying this in a pre-vet forum, but a veterinarian is quite often not really a very good authority on genetics, particularly complex problems in population and quantitative genetics that influence breed characteristics. Actually, trying to begin changing this is part of the impact I hope to make on the profession as a whole.

edit: And you still haven't addressed my point about temperament and heritability. I didn't assume you were saying all poodles were mean/evil. But then, if they had a pleasant poodle who was good around children, why not just breed it with another pleasant poodle who's good around children?

 

[lalzi22]

Look, I don't feel like arguing because we already have our dogs and we couldn't be happier. All I wanted to say was when done responsibly, they can be great for certain families and I wish it was done only by responsible breeders (sorry, people who breed mutts because they arent a breed for people who truly care about semantics). The end.

 

[NStarz]

I might cause trouble saying this in a pre-vet forum, but a veterinarian is quite often not really a very good authority on genetics, particularly complex problems in population and quantitative genetics that influence breed characteristics. Actually, trying to begin changing this is part of the impact I hope to make on the profession as a whole.

Interesting. Veterinary students should be required to take a class on animal genetics, specifically related to the veterinary profession. Add in about three more behavior classes, and you'd have my ideal curriculum 😉 Typically, undergrad genetics doesn't really cover what a veterinarian should know in terms of the situation we're discussing here. Especially with the growing popularity of DNA technology (and even just in terms of knowing how one specific breed is more susceptible to one disease than another breed), I think it's important. Agreed, Nyanko.

 

[nyanko]

^^edit to add: here at UCD, there is a genetics class in the 1st year of the curriculum. It lasts for about a month and a half, I think, and is 1.8 credits. I took it for a grade in the first year of my MS, and audited it/helped with it a little this year (this year was taught by my MS major professor). From what I understand, this is more genetics instruction than exists at many other schools. It's still not really that good. But at the same time I understand the reasoning...there's so much other ground to cover that is much more tangible and pressing.

lalzi:

This isn't about semantics or your individual dogs. It's about preserving the health and well being of the population of dogs as a whole, and is a very complex issue that needs to be approached from different angles. When I talk about this, I am talking about taking into account genetic health, working ability, temperament and the problem of overpopulation and shelter crowding (which is a public health issue that affects both humans and animals!).

So many people tend to take it as a personal attack on their poopychoneranian or something when this is discussed. The Great Pyrenees in my avatar...I love him to death, but his breeder was crap. I got him from rescue, where he had spent over 2 years, and he has bad hips, a bad back, insurmountable male dog aggression and territorial issues. I can objectively say that he should not have been bred without it being some sort of personal attack on him. Perhaps since you can't outwardly see the effects of irresponsible breeding by well-intentioned but misinformed people like you can in his case, it's different, but that's where some higher-level thinking needs to come into play.

 

[karmapple]

Poodles aren't good with children? Don't tell that to my standard poodle (adopted from a shelter) that has worked as a therapy dog with special needs children. I have also met some golden retrievers who I wouldn't trust around anyone, especially not a child.

You say some poodles are nice, some are not. Well, exactly. I'm sure the same can be said about goldendoodles.

Also, you seem to throw the word "responsible" around a lot with nothing to back it up. If all it takes to be a responsible breeder is to be a super-swell nice person who lets you trial run a puppy, then your standards are too low.

 

[eringobraugh]

I agree with nyanko, and besides you don't need a designer dog to get one that's "hypoallergenic". My brother is severely allergic to dogs so my parents got us a yorkie when we were younger. She was originally bred to catch mice on our breeders farm which is was the intention of the breed in the first place. He never had a problem and I will always have yorkies. They are great with kids (at least in my experience), super smart and easy to train. Back then though she was like 300 bucks now they sell for 1500+ around here unfortunately.

 

[quantized]

All these stairs in Nyanko's house are making me laugh like hell.

Doodle has to be the worst word ever. Way worse than moist.

 

[nyanko]

ITT I'm 'spergin about dogs.

...but at least it's my area of research interest, right? 😱

 

[cowgirla]

If it has a shi(t), cock, or poo in its name, why would you want to own one anyway? They should at least give these "breeds" real names instead of trying to sound "cutesy"

And honestly, is this how most breeds came about? Someone had a purpose, and starting breeding towards that purpose. And over the next generations, the breed developed, and the "standard" was created, and eventually the AKC allowed them in their division to compete....

So in this case, the purpose was a family dog that wouldn't bother most allergies.

Honestly, I'd rather see people breed towards that purpose than breed something like an english bulldog. Cant get pregnant on its own, can't whelp on its own...and what exactly is their purpose again?

 

[organismal]

Maybe slightly off topic, but what would be wrong with breeding two healthy purebreds (not of the same breed)? Like a completely healthy golden retreiver with great genes and temperament bred with an awesome poodle?

I know next to nothing about genetics or dogs, so I'm just curious 🙂

 

[nyanko]

^^The problem is that right now there are generally too many dogs and not enough homes. Breeding pedigreed purebred dogs responsibly is one thing, because breeds show major largely predictable differences in physical and behavioral characteristics between them, so somebody who needs a dog who's okay for allergy suffering and has a small yard has a number of small breeds to choose from with different temperaments and 'looks,' and their needs may not be served with a shelter dog. Same with someone in any situation who wants a puppy and has specific requirements. But when you just put together a golden retriever and a poodle, you throw all of that predictability out the window. The reality is that a large number of traits are quantitative and influenced by environment in several ways rather than simple Mendelian. Also, there are a lot of epistatic genes and phenomena like genetic imprinting and sex linked/influenced traits, expression changes and things I'm sure we don't even know about yet! An adult mixed breed of unknown origin from a shelter has a more predictable appearance and temperament than a goldendoodle puppy, because it's already mostly through the stage where its general temperament characteristics have developed. (Note: this isn't to say that these dogs can't be trained, but at least you know the big things...)

And honestly, is this how most breeds came about? Someone had a purpose, and starting breeding towards that purpose. And over the next generations, the breed developed, and the "standard" was created, and eventually the AKC allowed them in their division to compete....

So in this case, the purpose was a family dog that wouldn't bother most allergies.

The thing is, there are already a number of breeds that will fulfill that purpose. And just breeding and breeding F1 dogs is not creating a breed. The original Australian Labradoodle breeders who were attempting to breed them as service dogs were actually working towards making a breed. They did such things as backcrosses, mating within and across generations and bringing in other breeds of dog as well to try to perfect what they were doing. That's worlds away from someone taking a Labrador retriever and a poodle and making puppies over and over again.

Also, the fact that some breeds are messed up due largely to people taking breed characteristics to extreme phenotypes and only conformation showing rather than breeding for functionality as well (like the bulldog and American show line GSDs) has little to nothing to do with the issue of designer dogs.

 

[cowgirla]

The thing is, there are already a number of breeds that will fulfill that purpose. And just breeding and breeding F1 dogs is not creating a breed. The original Australian Labradoodle breeders who were attempting to breed them as service dogs were actually working towards making a breed. They did such things as backcrosses, mating within and across generations and bringing in other breeds of dog as well to try to perfect what they were doing. That's worlds away from someone taking a Labrador retriever and a poodle and making puppies over and over again.

So what about the people who breed labradoodle to labradoodle, and do all that? They'd be working towards a new "breed" then wouldn't they, if they did it right?

(Bear in mind, I am clueless about genetics, and in no way claim that anything I say is true 😎 )

 

[gone2dogs]

It seems like there must be some traits that they were trying to bring out with the Australian labradoodles that were bred for service work, otherwise why not just use poodles? I'd be curious to know more. I have been raising guide dog puppies for 7 years now and have become endlessly fascinated by their breeding colony selection and choices of who to breed to who. I even raised a puppy that had only 3 grandparents which I thought was really crazy, but I guess is a known practice to bring out certain genes? He was even considered for breeding and his sister was actually pulled as a breeder. They have tried poodles several times and have successfully trained a few, but their success rate was much lower than for their labs (and goldens) and they have decided to not continue with the breed. As far as I know they have never tried a lab x poodle, although they are getting really into the lab x goldens. This school has also phased out German Shepherd Dogs as their success rate was low and it wasn't financially possible to continue trying to improve their breeding lines.

So as usual, I've gotten longwinded and started to ramble... to the point that I'm not even sure what my point was going to be in the first place! I think I was trying to second what someone said above that it would be interesting to know more about the genetics of certain temperament traits...

P.S. I grew up with a poodle which was the only dog my pediatrician would "let" my family get when I was a kid because of severe allergies. Now thanks to three medications a day I live happily in a house full of labs (3 of them) but will always have a place in my heart for poodles (ours was great with kids too!).

 

[VeganSoprano]

My primary problem is that you are breeding dogs for a specific purpose (hypoallergenicity) knowing fully well that only about half can realistically be expected to meet those expectations. The rest of the puppies become surplus large mixed breed dogs...just like the millions of surplus large mixed breed dogs we already have. It's unfortunate that some kids won't be able to have a dog otherwise, but let's be realistic - there are hundreds of reasons why kids can't have the dog they want. Allergy is just one of them. Overall, the benefit of some people with allergies being able to have dogs can't compare with the animal welfare and public health issue of adding to the dog overpopulation issue.

 

[nyanko]

So what about the people who breed labradoodle to labradoodle, and do all that? They'd be working towards a new "breed" then wouldn't they, if they did it right?

(Bear in mind, I am clueless about genetics, and in no way claim that anything I say is true 😎 )

If they had a specific purpose in mind and bred towards that purpose, had a way of reliably testing to ensure that potential breeding dogs and their offspring fulfilled that purpose, were responsible about lineages, genetics and keeping an eye on diversity and health issues, collaborated with others with the same purpose and goal and formed a breed club and a set of actual breed standards they would be on their way to actually making a breed. However, since the name is a hybridization like that, the layperson would really have absolutely no way of distinguishing who was in on the "trying to make a breed" and who wasn't. And guess what, doing all of that responsible stuff costs a lot of money - a lot more than breeding your poodle with your neighbor's Lab. So the F1's that other people bred under the false pretense of "making a breed" would cost less, and I simply don't see there being a whole lot of demand for the costlier ones.

edit: http://www.australianlabradoodleclub.us/default.asp Like this. 😉

VeganSoprano brings up a good point too with the "surplus" inevitably created in the process. Back when most of the actually useful breeds were being started, they pretty much just used to shoot or drown the hounds who were too sick/small/helpless/big/slow or just weren't the right temperament for hunting. I have a feeling that wouldn't go over too well today, so the extras would just be filtered into the pet/shelter population for the shelter employees to deal with.

 

[VeganSoprano]

I have to add that I am absolutely certain that there are many "doodle" breeders who are committed to the welfare of the individual dogs they breed. I am certain many make sure even their "surplus" dogs end up in good, lifelong homes. The problem is the big picture. It's a fine situation for their individual dogs, but they are still inevitably contributing to a big problem for dogs as a whole.

 

[MidnightMoon]

And honestly, is this how most breeds came about? Someone had a purpose, and starting breeding towards that purpose. And over the next generations, the breed developed, and the "standard" was created, and eventually the AKC allowed them in their division to compete....

So in this case, the purpose was a family dog that wouldn't bother most allergies.

Honestly, I'd rather see people breed towards that purpose than breed something like an english bulldog. Cant get pregnant on its own, can't whelp on its own...and what exactly is their purpose again?

I agree completely. I would much rather see responsible breeding for a healthy "mutt"- and by responsible breeding I dont mean crossing a lab and a poodle over and over- then to continue to have the unhealthy, unnatural purebreds bred just because theyre established and once had a purpose long ago (not bulldogs specifically, but them too).

 

[nyanko]

I agree completely. I would much rather see responsible breeding for a healthy "mutt"- and by responsible breeding I dont mean crossing a lab and a poodle over and over- then to continue to have the unhealthy, unnatural purebreds bred just because theyre established and once had a purpose long ago (not bulldogs specifically, but them too).

But that's not the dichotomy here. There are responsible people who breed purebred dogs that are still functional and healthy.

 

[VeganSoprano]

Exactly! We have a couple of English bulldogs at my practice who were deliberately bred to not have the extreme brachycephaly. They can actually breathe. They're far better off than the English bulldog puppy who died of a severely hypoplastic trachea...or the one-year-old who had a nearly fatal heatstroke from playing on a 70 degree day...and I could go on here.

 

[smilin1590]

Poodles aren't good with children? Don't tell that to my standard poodle (adopted from a shelter) that has worked as a therapy dog with special needs children. I have also met some golden retrievers who I wouldn't trust around anyone, especially not a child.

You say some poodles are nice, some are not. Well, exactly. I'm sure the same can be said about goldendoodles.

I agree with you Karmapple. I think the same can be said about most breeds (yes even the ones that have a bad rap aka pitbulls) my pitbully was found by us in the middle of the country, nobody wanted to come forward and claim her and she is the sweetest girl with everyone including children...i think it really just depends on the upbringing and just the general disposition of the dog itself and not the breed *Just thought I'd throw that out there for the people who had doubts about shelter dogs or particular breeds of dogs

 

[ReadyBeVet]

This is a hot topic for me. I apologize in advance if I offend anyone! 😍I'm VERY active in golden retriever rescue and in obedience and rally-o with my golden. I've owned goldens my entire life and I participate in the local golden retriever club. Golden/other hybrid doodles are a real problem. There is no consistency in their get- temperaments off the wall, XL size or very small. Remember proteins? Structure=Function! We're seeing a lot of structural problems in this 'breed' early on because a lot of hybrid 'breeders' don't do the recommended health screenings.

Every parent breed club (Re: Golden Retriever Club of America or whatever breed you're dealing with) sets forth a Code of Ethics that breeders should follow. At minimum, this includes Hip/Elbow clearances with OFA or PennHip, CERF eyes, and cardiac clearance by a specialist. It would be nice for these 'breeders' of doodles to do this at the very least. Personally, every doodle breeder that I've had the unfortunate chance to meet/call/speak to had never bothered to research or find out about these clearances. The ones that have heard of them don't get them done because "Fido is healthy, look at him run-he has great hips." *sigh* 😱

You can't say that a goldendoodle "tends to be" anything because a goldendoodle is a mix between a poodle and a golden retriever. It is a complete crapshoot as to what traits the animal will get from each parent, morphologically and behaviorally. You can only make generalizations like that within a breed because breeds have been bred for many, many generations to ensure that the offspring meet a standard.

A responsible poodle breeder who is conscientious of temperament could undoubtedly provide a puppy that when raised in an environment with children and socialized while young would be perfectly fine with them.

Do you have a goldendoodle as well? If you don't have the yard for a poodle, how do you have one for a goldendoodle?

A+ Agree with everything here.

The reason people gravitate to a certain breed is because a certain standard has been upheld. Quality breeders build a breeding program that incorporates temperament, versatility, performance/intelligence (obedience/rally/agility), AND their structure has been evaluated (conformation).

I agree 100%. They need to be bred responsibly. My bf's breeder allowed the puppy to go home with the family for a week (a full WEEK) to make sure the dog was hypo-allergenic enough for the family. That is responsible breeding IMO. I don't want to see these dogs produced en masse, but I think they are a nice pet for kids who cant have a normal dog.

I hate the idea of hybrid dogs being produced, but at a very minimum these 'breeders' need to making sure that the dogs they're breeding are clear of hereditary disease and have a nice temperament. As I mentioned above, if you're breeding a poodle x golden: you should at least perform those tests that the breed clubs of the respective breeds recommends. Hips/Elbows/Eyes/Heart at minimum.

While I understand the need for a person with allergies to test the waters- Yes, it was nice of the breeder to do this- but it doesn't mean it was responsible breeding. Were health clearances done? How many litters produced per year? What warrants the often outrageous prices? There is often no champions in the pedigree, resulting in dogs that have been indiscriminately bred leading to poor structure.

Maybe slightly off topic, but what would be wrong with breeding two healthy purebreds (not of the same breed)? Like a completely healthy golden retreiver with great genes and temperament bred with an awesome poodle?

I know next to nothing about genetics or dogs, so I'm just curious 🙂

Why purposefully breed mixed-breed dogs and add to the already overwhelming number of homeless pets?

There is no breed standard to work towards. What should a goldendoodle look like, act like?

There is no reliability what offspring look like or act like. That's a problem.

I have to add that I am absolutely certain that there are many "doodle" breeders who are committed to the welfare of the individual dogs they breed. I am certain many make sure even their "surplus" dogs end up in good, lifelong homes. The problem is the big picture. It's a fine situation for their individual dogs, but they are still inevitably contributing to a big problem for dogs as a whole.

I have only seen about 2 that actively pursue clearances on their dogs and also actively compete in obedience and agility. This to me shows a sincere interest in the dog/breed, and an awareness that there is more to breeding than just money or finding two willing dogs.

 

[Tiktaalik]

There is some positive in the trend in that it encourages mixing of horrifically overbred lines, but it's largely cancelled out because these animals take homes that could be for currently homeless pets.


The greatest sin is definitely the names, though. Cowgirla's got it right - when one is putting "cock" and "poo" in the same name, there should be a point where sanity returns and prevents the name being uttered.

 

[twelvetigers]

Okay, I know it's a shih-poo, but I've heard enough people call it a ****-poo to... well... it's pretty funny every time I hear it.

ETA: And poo-tzu doesn't sound any better, lol.

 

[DVMDream]

Okay, I know it's a shih-poo, but I've heard enough people call it a ****-poo to... well... it's pretty funny every time I hear it.

ETA: And poo-tzu doesn't sound any better, lol.

So I did not read all of this thread, but I really so no great benefits to the doodle craze. Most of the doodles we have seen have either not kept up to being "hypoallergenic"; their owners complain they still have allergies. We have gotten some really aggressive dogs and we have also had some really hyper, overly-excited (think ADHD) dogs that are way too big and have knocked people over just by pure strength. I have only really meet one somewhat decent goldendoodle. I have also had clients get mad at me because when I put the breed of their dog into the computer I either listed it as poodle mix, golden retriever mix, labrador mix, etc and they would tell me that I have to change it to goldendoodle. Then, I have to explain to them that goldendoodle is not a recognized pure bred and is a mixed-bred and that we do not have a listing for it in our computer. They get really pissed off and say that they paid 1,000's of dollars for their pure-bred goldendoodle. I have to tell them that they basically paid 1000's of dollars for a mutt that they could have found at the pound. 🙄 I guess if you want to pay large sums of money for a mutt then go for it, but I really do not see any purpose to it especially since the majority of them are not "hypoallergenic".

 

[luplodw]

I really have no opinion on this matter but just curious..... Isn't this the same way people in history created some of our "purebreds?"

 

[nyanko]

That was already addressed at length, if you would read the thread.

 

[168135]

I know a girl who's in vet school now who was all "Omg, the pet population is out of control! Adopt your pet from a shelter!" and when her family's hypoallergenic terrier thing (can't remember the breed) died, instead of looking at shelters or rescues, they got it from a breeder *headdesk*. My aunt convinced my mom that a labradoodle was an actual breed and she was thinking of buying one for $1000 from a breeder. It took me a long time to convince my mom that labradoodles are MUTTS, not a BREED, and that these "oops!" puppies end up in shelters all the time.

It's refreshing to see that the creator realized he's made a mistake.

The whole thing just annoys me... my head is going to be hitting the wall when I become a vet and I have to deal with these people.

 

[sunshinevet]

Maybe the doodle phase is a bit behind in America compared to here - we have huge problems with it - mainly relating to puppy farming. No-one here "breeds" these mutts - they're all either backyard breeders or from mass producing puppy farms. Its absolutely horrible. And whats more, the responsible breeders of poodles, malteses, bichon frise etc can no longer sell their puppies for any sum of money! Its extremely frustrating!

 

[clouds815]

ok i'm gonna throw out some questions because i don't quite understand the whole thing (yes i read the whole thread)....

so most ppl seem to think that breeding X breed with Y to create Z and selling them is bad etc etc.

what happens if they do that and then breed the labradoodles with each other or whatever again and again until they have the desired resulting line of a 'new breed' (basically how different breeds were creating in the past) instead of just stopping at the poodle x lab offspring.
If these dogs fulfilled all health/allergy/whatever other things & produced consistant offspring etc. would that be considered acceptable breeding/creation of a new breed? Since all breeds were creating in the past by mixing something with another until desired result was met

 

[badcats]

I am procrastinating so I will try and help you, although others (nyanko) are much more qualified. If the breeders were to do as you say and not just produce F1 (pooodle x lab) offspring, but instead pull pups from F1 litters that had they traits they were looking for (hypoallergenic, good temperment, etc.) along with being healthy (hips, elbows, eyes, and heart) then started using these as their breeding stock adding in a poodle or lab or earlier generation doodle to get the desired traits to develop a standard that would be produced EVERY time labradoodles were bred to ladbradoodles, then yes they would have a breed.

The problem is with the ethics of creating a new breed and the pet overpopulation issues already rampant in the country. What happens to all the puppies that don't meet what the breeder was looking for? At best they find homes, which would have possibly gone to other pets in need, and at worst they are euthanized. Also even if some people are responsible and legitimately trying to make it a breed, nothing prevents idiots from just crossing a lab and a poodle in their backyard and selling it as the same thing.

This was all pretty much in the thread, but maybe it makes more sense to you now?

And to lighten the mood...[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuK4EWoUko8[/YOUTUBE]

 

[clouds815]

But it seems that creation of a legitimate breeding line would actually be a step in the right direction. Reasoning:
People are obviously already willing to shell out money for these mixed breed dogs (stated above by others), so people are already doing these poodle x lab crosses and selling the resulting offspring. Therefore if a few were selected to create breeding lines, it would seem the 'extra dogs' could find homes. Eventually a line would be established creating consistent desired healthy offspring, so continuing to do this mixed breeding going on now would no longer be necessary, therefore decreasing the number of dogs that did not meet standards.

Also- I personally think that all breeding, mixed or not, adds to overpopulation. Sure more of the recognized purebreds might have a greater chance of finding a home initially. That doesn't mean that some don't eventually end up in shelters or euthanized because the owner said, hey I'm moving I don't want my dog anymore, or I don't feel like taking care of it anymore, or I can't afford it, or whatever.

Just my thoughts

 

[nyanko]

But it seems that creation of a legitimate breeding line would actually be a step in the right direction. Reasoning:
People are obviously already willing to shell out money for these mixed breed dogs (stated above by others), so people are already doing these poodle x lab crosses and selling the resulting offspring.

Part of what the breeders push about these dogs is that they are crosses. A good number of them play off of the growing public perception that purebreds are all unhealthy and unstable. They advertise the puppies as having the best qualities of both parents and misguidedly pound the concept of "hybrid vigor" into the heads of people who are thinking about buying puppies. So once they become a breed they lose that selling point. Then they're basically just like a soft coated wheaten or whatever.

Also- I personally think that all breeding, mixed or not, adds to overpopulation. Sure more of the recognized purebreds might have a greater chance of finding a home initially. That doesn't mean that some don't eventually end up in shelters or euthanized because the owner said, hey I'm moving I don't want my dog anymore, or I don't feel like taking care of it anymore, or I can't afford it, or whatever.

When we talk about breeding mixed breed dogs exacerbating the problem of overpopulation, we don't necessarily mean the dogs themselves are being turned into shelters. The point is that if you are getting a mixed breed dog, you don't know what you're getting anyway, so why not just get one that already exists in a shelter? If you need a specific attribute in your dog or you need it to do a specific job, you may never find a shelter dog who matches what you need. That's why responsible purebred breeding can be justified.

This is frustrating because every single question that you've asked or point you've brought up has already been answered in this thread, mostly by me. I feel like I'm repeating myself 10 different ways here.

 

[that redhead]

The original breeder's excuse is that the dog would be hypoallergenic, but there are other breeds out there (purebred) that can be hypoallergenic, as well, so that isn't really a good point, in my opinion.

I absolutely adore my mutt, although I can't for the life of me begin to guess what she is. However, I got her from a shelter and did not purposefully seek out a fancy, "designer dog" name that would amaze and humble everyone I came across. Could I make up a cutesy name for Ella? Sure. I'd guess she's a cockamericaneskigi. Hawt, right? I will now breed her a million times and make billions of dollars from her puppies.

In all seriousness, though, when it comes to breeding mutts, there is nothing responsible there. If you want a mutt, go to the shelter and give a dog a second chance.

 

[BarnyardPunch]

The original breeder's excuse is that the dog would be hypoallergenic, but there are other breeds out there (purebred) that can be hypoallergenic, as well, so that isn't really a good point, in my opinion.

The original breeder was attempting to create a hypoallergenic dog that would ALSO make a good guide dog. Established Guiding Eye/Seeing Eye organizations are meticulous about their breeding. They don't breed poorly conformed animals or ones with poor temperament. They don't breed dogs that aren't smart or confident enough to be great service animals.

It may have been easier to try to introduce a hypoallergenic quality to an established line of working Labs than it would be to identify and establish a line of good guide dogs from a breed new to the job. Only a fraction of the Labs that have been bred for generations for guide work actually make the cut. If they could have gone with another established breed, they probably would have.

When I was involved in raising Guiding Eyes puppies, they were moving away from GSD because there was a preference for smaller dogs for city living. They were phasing out Goldens because even though they bred 100% of their own dogs, they were having trouble weeding out hip problems. (I'm old, this is before genetic testing.) And they were experimenting with the Bernese Mt Dog--I can't remember why they thought the Bernese would make a good guide animal. Ultimately they decided the coat was too much work and retired that idea as well.

Breeding to a working ideal is OK with me, but it has to be done with a plan and a purpose in mind. Most Doodling going on right now is for the other P - profit.

 

[nyanko]

It may have been easier to try to introduce a hypoallergenic quality to an established line of working Labs than it would be to identify and establish a line of good guide dogs from a breed new to the job. Only a fraction of the Labs that have been bred for generations for guide work actually make the cut. If they could have gone with another established breed, they probably would have.

Yeah, I think this is why they decided ultimately to kind of scrap the idea. The problem with trying to get a single trait from another breed, though, is that you can't pick and choose what traits the offspring get from their parents. The quality of "hypoallergenicity" is linked with the coat type it seems, in dogs. Dogs with the (usually curly) single coat (that doesn't shed as much and needs to be maintained by a groomer to avoid mats/knots) are anecdotally the ones who are most tolerable to people with allergies. So it would seem that whether a dog will or won't trigger allergies has to do with the type of coat. Well, coat type is a pretty quantitative trait. If you look at a litter of 5 Lab/poodle mixes, chances are all 5 have different qualitative phenotypes with respect to coat. So it would be a tough thing to "breed in."

This is different from the situation in cats, where there is a specific protein identified (FelD1) that is the cause of most cat allergies. There are some gene polymorphisms that have been studied, and we aren't sure we know the actual function of FelD1 quite yet, but it does look like cats with lower levels of FelD1 in their saliva cause less allergy problems. So breeds like the Siberian have a way of quantitatively testing cats who are potential breeding stock, if this is a phenotype they're wanting to attenuate.

 

[purplesaurus]

... It's unfortunate that some kids won't be able to have a dog otherwise, but let's be realistic - there are hundreds of reasons why kids can't have the dog they want. Allergy is just one of them. Overall, the benefit of some people with allergies being able to have dogs can't compare with the animal welfare and public health issue of adding to the dog overpopulation issue.

[emphasis mine]

Yay, someone else said it. I wanted to point this out that no, you can't always get what you want (but if you try sometimes...), but I was afraid that would be an unwelcome observation.


@nyanko: Thank you for reminding me about the ways that genetics can be interesting. Genetics has been one of my least favorite subjects to study, so I tend to forget that, once you get past the intro to genetics stuff, it gets really neat (and sometimes even applicable to "real" life!).