- Joined
- Oct 11, 2007
- Messages
- 51
- Reaction score
- 0
any thoughts would be appreciated.
Lake Erie Pa PBL vs Lecture base
- Thread starter waytogoo
- Start date
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2007
- Messages
- 201
- Reaction score
- 0
I am lecture base. I was on the waitlist for PBL because I think it sounds like a really neat way to learn and imagine it would be very helpful in the 3rd and 4th year on.
However, I like LDP and if I had the option to switch now, I wouldn't. We have class solid from 8-12 every day (Wednesday OPP and OMM with a break while one group waits for the other too finish in OMM). Monday afternoons tend to have a couple classes. During anatomy we had afternoon labs most days or an occasional histo lab thrown in. Now that we are in core, it is very similar, we don't have lots of afternoon classes. So there is plenty of time to study and/or take a break.
It's definately pretty rough to sit through an hour or two of some of the professors though.
However, I like LDP and if I had the option to switch now, I wouldn't. We have class solid from 8-12 every day (Wednesday OPP and OMM with a break while one group waits for the other too finish in OMM). Monday afternoons tend to have a couple classes. During anatomy we had afternoon labs most days or an occasional histo lab thrown in. Now that we are in core, it is very similar, we don't have lots of afternoon classes. So there is plenty of time to study and/or take a break.
It's definately pretty rough to sit through an hour or two of some of the professors though.
- Joined
- Jun 26, 2004
- Messages
- 1,328
- Reaction score
- 2
I'm an LDP student and would highly recommend any new incoming student to stick with this pathway. Although I was considering ISP, even if I get the option to switch now I won't. Lecture gives you all the material you need in a directed format with the lecturers being pretty good. Don't forget that in the near future your lecturers will be clinicians.
Stick with LDP. Many PBL/ISP students feel that there exams contain a great amount of ambiguity.
Stick with LDP. Many PBL/ISP students feel that there exams contain a great amount of ambiguity.
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2004
- Messages
- 621
- Reaction score
- 7
This is personal opinion! Do not trust Archer he lies!!!!!!!
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2007
- Messages
- 27
- Reaction score
- 0
I'm in ISP and I love it!!! It's not forbidden to attend classes, but it would not help you to goto lecture if you are in PBL/ISP. We have completely different schedule. I get to stay home when it snows(it snowed alot yesterday), BUT with that said you have to be highly motivated in order to keep up with the work.
Right now we are assigned 40 chapters of biochem that will be tested in 2 weeks and that's the only grade u get for biochem this semester. But I think it's better than LDP for me b/c I don't HAVE To goto class.. i never paid attention in class during anatomy/histo/embryo.
Oh, in ISP we have divided up the objectives for all 40 chapaters(they give u guidelines as to what to read and study for each subject) b/w 6-7 of us in order to get the notes done. for physio( our last module) this helped quite a bit b/c it supplemented the readings and if you didn't get to the reading it gave u a condensed version of the reading.
I think it depends on who u are and how u study. Just b/c u are in one or the other doesnt mean anything. Just how hard and consistently u work in med school.
Right now we are assigned 40 chapters of biochem that will be tested in 2 weeks and that's the only grade u get for biochem this semester. But I think it's better than LDP for me b/c I don't HAVE To goto class.. i never paid attention in class during anatomy/histo/embryo.
Oh, in ISP we have divided up the objectives for all 40 chapaters(they give u guidelines as to what to read and study for each subject) b/w 6-7 of us in order to get the notes done. for physio( our last module) this helped quite a bit b/c it supplemented the readings and if you didn't get to the reading it gave u a condensed version of the reading.
I think it depends on who u are and how u study. Just b/c u are in one or the other doesnt mean anything. Just how hard and consistently u work in med school.
If there is one thing I'm honest about it's boards and you know this. How's Farrell treating you? Thanks for calling me back!
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2004
- Messages
- 621
- Reaction score
- 7
I miss you! I miss they way you wipe the hair from your eyes! Farrel is ok, but anything is better than Jersey.
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2007
- Messages
- 95
- Reaction score
- 1
I'm in PBL. The only real negative thing I an say about it is that you have to do it during anatomy, so you have a bunch of extra stuff to do. The plus side of that is that you can figure out if you really like it or not. If you don't like it, you can transfer out at the end of anatomy. You don't take any quiz or test that counts for your PBL grade until after anatomy, so if you want to switch out into LDP there would be nothing to stop you and it wouldn't affect your grade at all. (Of course, this means that if you stick with it and fail your first PBL test you are kind of stuck, but you should have a pretty good idea of how you are going to do before the test)
If you don't like PBL, you have to get out of it right after anatomy, because we don't do things in the same order as everyone else. In other words, if you wait till second semester to switch to LDP you wouldn't be able to because they would have covered like, all of biochem and some physiology that you might not have covered.
I really like the learning style. Not only do you get to learn what questions to ask a patient while taking the history, you get to learn what tests to ask for and what order to get them in and all that stuff. Another thing is that you get to study all aspects of a situation. Instead of learning all the biochem and then all the physio and all the micro, you look at the stuff from each of those subjects as it applies specifically to your case, and then you can see how it is all related. Instead of just learning the fundementals of medicine, you learn the fundementals in the context of a clinical setting. That is how you are actually going to have to practice medicine, so I think it is a real bonus to start learning medicine that way.
Your schedule also can be a little more flexible and you don't have to be at school as much as everybody else.
Basically, unless you don't think you could possibly learn that way, put PBL as your first choice and if you don't like it transfer out after anatomy. You don't lose anything and there is always someone waiting to take your place.
If you don't like PBL, you have to get out of it right after anatomy, because we don't do things in the same order as everyone else. In other words, if you wait till second semester to switch to LDP you wouldn't be able to because they would have covered like, all of biochem and some physiology that you might not have covered.
I really like the learning style. Not only do you get to learn what questions to ask a patient while taking the history, you get to learn what tests to ask for and what order to get them in and all that stuff. Another thing is that you get to study all aspects of a situation. Instead of learning all the biochem and then all the physio and all the micro, you look at the stuff from each of those subjects as it applies specifically to your case, and then you can see how it is all related. Instead of just learning the fundementals of medicine, you learn the fundementals in the context of a clinical setting. That is how you are actually going to have to practice medicine, so I think it is a real bonus to start learning medicine that way.
Your schedule also can be a little more flexible and you don't have to be at school as much as everybody else.
Basically, unless you don't think you could possibly learn that way, put PBL as your first choice and if you don't like it transfer out after anatomy. You don't lose anything and there is always someone waiting to take your place.
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2006
- Messages
- 4,106
- Reaction score
- 849
Hmm....I would say yea, but possibly in a different way. You have to be disciplined anyway in med school just to get through the material. Possibly more so in PBL since you won't have a lecture or syllabus telling you what you need to know. It's a LOT of reading. So you do have to keep up with reading because, at least here, you could have a PBL case that has ~40 chapters of material on it, and ideally those are all chapters that you have already read and studied throughout those cases.
Question to Frank: Did ya'll do PBL all throughout anatomy? We started a couple weeks into anatomy having a PBL session 1x/week and I would agree with you, I'd rather just wait until anatomy was done to start it. The problem was we were initially assigned about 8 chapters that would be on the first PBL test (along with whatever info we picked during the first few cases) and because of anatomy no one really was able to do the initial required reading until the 10 week anatomy course was over. And once that was over we had 2 weeks until the 1st PBL test, during which everyone was just trying to catch up on reading.
After that first test you kind of "start over" in PBL so you aren't behind forever, just something I think they may have to further tweak.
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2007
- Messages
- 95
- Reaction score
- 1
I guess that depends. I mean, you really can't slack off in LDP either. All of the pathways are going to give you a clear idea of what you need to know, and it is your responsibility to learn it. PBL only has 2 tests this semester though, one after anatomy and one the last day of the semester. If you slack off because you know you aren't going to have a test for awhile, then I guess you need to be a little more disciplined. It looks like the LDPer's have a test every other week or so. Some people only study when they have a test coming up, and if you are one of those people PBL might not be quite right for you. But then again, if you only study when you have a test the next day, med school might not be right for you. You really have to keep up on it no matter what pathway you are in.
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2007
- Messages
- 95
- Reaction score
- 1
Yeah, we did it the whole time. We only did 4 cases instead of 6, and they gave us a week to study for the test. I think we had about 17 chapters on our first test. (a lot of those overlapped though, so it wasn't too bad)
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2005
- Messages
- 135
- Reaction score
- 0
I'm PBL and wouldn't want to do it any other way. It definitely gives you a lot more freedom. I've heard that PBLers consistently score higher on boards than LDP (in contrast to a previous post). That being said, if you're not highly motivated to keep on top of the work, this is not a good path for you. We have tests about every 8 weeks on about 600-700 pages of material, compared to the smaller weekely tests LDP has. If you feel you can motivate yourself to read even if the test isn't for another 7 weeks, then this is a good choice for you. PBLers seem to be really happy and like the program. As for the ambiguos test comment--I'd like to meet a medical student who hasn't complained about an amiguous test question ever! PBL is great because you learn how to take a thorough history and physical, in addition to what labs and tests to order. Plus, working in a small group situation is good practice for the real world. PM me if you have any specific questions.
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2007
- Messages
- 26
- Reaction score
- 0
Could you let me know how it really is from a student perspective. What classes did you take the first 12 weeks? I was accepted into Erie on 11/7 for PBL. 
Thanks!
Thanks!
- Joined
- Feb 15, 2007
- Messages
- 95
- Reaction score
- 1
Could you let me know how it really is from a student perspective. What classes did you take the first 12 weeks? I was accepted into Erie on 11/7 for PBL.
Thanks!
They may tweak it some next year, but this year we took anatomy, histo and embryo with everyone else. We also take OMM with everyone else. The difference is that in PBL we did 4 cases during anatomy. That added up to maybe 300 pages or so of reading. The readings were different depending on what your group picked. Most people picked a lot of physiology, but there was some pharmacology and pathology and embryo and stuff mixed in there too. We had our PBL sessions while the LDPer's had OMM lab, and then we had OMM lab the next afternoon. This means that during anatomy you have about 2 hours less of free time per week than the LDPer's. That's really not a big deal. Then once anatomy ended we had a whole week off to study for the test. We really didn't do too much reading for PBL before that week because we were all worried about anatomy. The test wasn't easy, but everybody passed with room to spare so it worked out pretty good.
Now that we are done with that, we are on campus about 2 hours every day. Either we have to be at OMM or we have a PBL session, so expect to be at school fairly often. But PBL sessions and OMM labs are fun, so I really don't mind. The rest of the time you'll be at home reading. You get up an read all day and then take the evening off. It is like a fulltime job. For me, being in LDP would be like having 2 jobs, because I really don't learn well in leture.
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2006
- Messages
- 266
- Reaction score
- 21
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 277
- Reaction score
- 0
LDP may have done better on the boards last year... I don't have the information. However, I was in the class of 2006 and PBL annihilated LDP on the boards. It wasn't even close.
Basically what I'm saying is that both pathways will get you to where you want to go, IF you put in the effort. It is also highly competitive between the two pathways, in case you haven't noticed!
Basically what I'm saying is that both pathways will get you to where you want to go, IF you put in the effort. It is also highly competitive between the two pathways, in case you haven't noticed!
- Joined
- Nov 20, 2007
- Messages
- 3
- Reaction score
- 0
I'm a third year PBLer, and I did pretty well on the boards. I'm not sure how the three pathways compared (Archer, how do you know?) It may be subjective and based only on my class, but it seemed on the whole, LDPers griped alot more about their daily workload than the other two pathways. This could have been to a couple incidents throughout the year, but what it comes down to is personal choice.
Firstly, motivation isn't really a priority. If you're not motivated, you fail medical school. People who come into school with a bio degree and a vague desire to become a doctor usually fail sometime after anatomy. It really comes down to what type of student are you. In college, did you email professors or T.A.s for help? Did you go to their lectures, and when you didn't, were totally lost? LDP. Were you like me? Never attending lecture, reading chapters based on the syllabus, forming study groups, etc. PBL or ISP. I have a serious problem with somebody telling me how something works instead of me figuring it out for myself. So lecture was a waste of time. But some people need that type of guidance or structure. Personally, I had trouble in undergrad with cramming and proscratination, but I think the fear of failing made studying hard a priority. In that sense, PBL taught me to schedule my time better.
In terms of how we're doing on rotations, I'd say again it's individualized. Personally, I've never heard a doctor say PBL or LDP or ISP makes a better 3rd or 4th year (although, I have heard Dr.s say we're better students than the ones they get from Temple or Jefferson. In your face, Philadelphia!). During the 2nd year, I thought I got a better clinical education through the PBL CODA than the LDP one. But I think that's a moot point, since rumor has it the insatiable beast that once was Ortoski's CODA program met the business end of a shotgun, and is now replaced with something similar to the old PBL format.
Pro's of PBL? Your own schedule. I'd study 8-10 hours a day, and still be able to wake up at 10 if I wanted to. Also, learning on my own somehow made the material more concrete. And, at the end of second year, I distinctly remember having more time to study for the upcoming boards beings that PBL was done sometime in March. Groups really gave a more realistic approach to cases, and it definately integrated the material in terms of using all disciplines in one area of medicine. Example: for a case for gout, you could study joint pathology, biochemistry protein metabolism and purine degradation, genetics for Lesch-Neyan disease (personally, my favorite genetic problem), anatomy, and pharm for allopurinol and colchicine. It really gave you an idea for the scope of knowledge you need just understand one problem.
Con's? You really have to be able to tolerate different personalities in a group. There's slackers, gunners, people who try to finish your sentence for you, and people who hide in corners silently sobbing. You may repeat objectives 4-5 times. Here's how: let's say last test, in a previous group, you read all about heart path. In this new one, there's somebody who didn't. You do it twice. And so on. Also, while reading material, you constantly have to ask yourself: is this important? Deciding what's worth remembering and what's not is half the battle in PBL. Not a worry for LDP or ISP, where their objectives are printed out for them.
Was I happy with PBL? God yes. I think 8-10 hours a day in a room (esp with some of the professors) would have me sticking sharp objects in my ear on a daily basis. And I'm happy with where it put me in terms of rotations. Honestly, I'm suprised with LECOM. It seems they've made me a pretty respectable student, and a candidate for some tough residency spots. Who thought that was possible?
Firstly, motivation isn't really a priority. If you're not motivated, you fail medical school. People who come into school with a bio degree and a vague desire to become a doctor usually fail sometime after anatomy. It really comes down to what type of student are you. In college, did you email professors or T.A.s for help? Did you go to their lectures, and when you didn't, were totally lost? LDP. Were you like me? Never attending lecture, reading chapters based on the syllabus, forming study groups, etc. PBL or ISP. I have a serious problem with somebody telling me how something works instead of me figuring it out for myself. So lecture was a waste of time. But some people need that type of guidance or structure. Personally, I had trouble in undergrad with cramming and proscratination, but I think the fear of failing made studying hard a priority. In that sense, PBL taught me to schedule my time better.
In terms of how we're doing on rotations, I'd say again it's individualized. Personally, I've never heard a doctor say PBL or LDP or ISP makes a better 3rd or 4th year (although, I have heard Dr.s say we're better students than the ones they get from Temple or Jefferson. In your face, Philadelphia!). During the 2nd year, I thought I got a better clinical education through the PBL CODA than the LDP one. But I think that's a moot point, since rumor has it the insatiable beast that once was Ortoski's CODA program met the business end of a shotgun, and is now replaced with something similar to the old PBL format.
Pro's of PBL? Your own schedule. I'd study 8-10 hours a day, and still be able to wake up at 10 if I wanted to. Also, learning on my own somehow made the material more concrete. And, at the end of second year, I distinctly remember having more time to study for the upcoming boards beings that PBL was done sometime in March. Groups really gave a more realistic approach to cases, and it definately integrated the material in terms of using all disciplines in one area of medicine. Example: for a case for gout, you could study joint pathology, biochemistry protein metabolism and purine degradation, genetics for Lesch-Neyan disease (personally, my favorite genetic problem), anatomy, and pharm for allopurinol and colchicine. It really gave you an idea for the scope of knowledge you need just understand one problem.
Con's? You really have to be able to tolerate different personalities in a group. There's slackers, gunners, people who try to finish your sentence for you, and people who hide in corners silently sobbing. You may repeat objectives 4-5 times. Here's how: let's say last test, in a previous group, you read all about heart path. In this new one, there's somebody who didn't. You do it twice. And so on. Also, while reading material, you constantly have to ask yourself: is this important? Deciding what's worth remembering and what's not is half the battle in PBL. Not a worry for LDP or ISP, where their objectives are printed out for them.
Was I happy with PBL? God yes. I think 8-10 hours a day in a room (esp with some of the professors) would have me sticking sharp objects in my ear on a daily basis. And I'm happy with where it put me in terms of rotations. Honestly, I'm suprised with LECOM. It seems they've made me a pretty respectable student, and a candidate for some tough residency spots. Who thought that was possible?
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2006
- Messages
- 460
- Reaction score
- 4
If I had to choose over again, I would still have picked ISP, then LDP, and finally PBL. ISP is A LOT of work. But, I feel I really know the material well for the particular subject we are studying.
If there is a school that gives a perfect education, please let me know. I like the way one professor stated it, "if you're a C-student, you'll do C-student work, and if you're an A-student, you'll do A-student work no matter which pathway you choose."
If there is a school that gives a perfect education, please let me know. I like the way one professor stated it, "if you're a C-student, you'll do C-student work, and if you're an A-student, you'll do A-student work no matter which pathway you choose."
I'm not positive on the stats for boards this year. But I've been informed that 4 of the top 5 scorers were from LDP. I have to agree 100% with the comment that people who lack motivation will fail when they get into medical school. This statement holds for every pathway, at every school. I think if you are not absolutely, whole-heartedly into practicing medicine and making it a significant part of your life that you are doing the profession and yourself a tremendous injustice.
And just for clarity sake, if you do well in LDP, you do not have to attend every lecture. The administration does take attendance, but if you score well on tests and occasionally show up to class, you will not be penalized for missing classes. For example, during reproductive I skipped almost every class because a. I know I do not want to be an obstetrician or gynecologist (maybe gyn-onc, but probably not) and b. it was the last system before boards and I made the decision to study for boards instead of attending class. My reproductive grade reflects my attendance but so does my board score. All in all I think I was more than adequately prepared for boards and probably would have been regardless of what pathway I chose because when it comes down to it - it is all about how hard you want to work and how bad you want something.
And just for clarity sake, if you do well in LDP, you do not have to attend every lecture. The administration does take attendance, but if you score well on tests and occasionally show up to class, you will not be penalized for missing classes. For example, during reproductive I skipped almost every class because a. I know I do not want to be an obstetrician or gynecologist (maybe gyn-onc, but probably not) and b. it was the last system before boards and I made the decision to study for boards instead of attending class. My reproductive grade reflects my attendance but so does my board score. All in all I think I was more than adequately prepared for boards and probably would have been regardless of what pathway I chose because when it comes down to it - it is all about how hard you want to work and how bad you want something.
