aphistis

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I just read a thread on the pre-dent forum that mentioned LVI, and it got me wondering about something, and I'm curious to see how my experience compares to some other folks'.

Every Las Vegas Institute dentist I've ever met or talked to has left me with a desperate desire to shower afterward to wash off the slime. I've never met a group of people less interested in their patients' well-being as long as they can get in their pockets. In my limited experience, LVI is one of the worst things to have ever happened to dentistry. Its patient management routines remind me of nothing as much as used car dealership parodies, and I've felt literally sick to my stomach shadowing in LVI offices.

Do I just happen to keep bumping into the lunatic fringe, or is this normal for how LVI operates? Discuss. :D

(I'd love to hear from some people who have experience working on LVI offices. I'd love even more to be wrong about my impressions, but I'm not holding my breath.)
 

DentalSkills

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aphistis said:
I just read a thread on the pre-dent forum that mentioned LVI, and it got me wondering about something, and I'm curious to see how my experience compares to some other folks'.

Every Las Vegas Institute dentist I've ever met or talked to has left me with a desperate desire to shower afterward to wash off the slime. I've never met a group of people less interested in their patients' well-being as long as they can get in their pockets. In my limited experience, LVI is one of the worst things to have ever happened to dentistry. Its patient management routines remind me of nothing as much as used car dealership parodies, and I've felt literally sick to my stomach shadowing in LVI offices.

Do I just happen to keep bumping into the lunatic fringe, or is this normal for how LVI operates? Discuss. :D

(I'd love to hear from some people who have experience working on LVI offices. I'd love even more to be wrong about my impressions, but I'm not holding my breath.)


I agree with the fact that most cosmetic dentists are money grubbing whores and only care about getting the patient to do as much work as possible regardless of if they need it or not. On the other hand, if they want to treat their practice like a cash cow, its their choice. Its really the patients that choose the dentist in the end.
 

ItsGavinC

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Bill, 100% agreeance from me. Now pass the shampoo.
 
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CorneliusFudge

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DentalSkills said:
I agree with the fact that most cosmetic dentists are money grubbing whores and only care about getting the patient to do as much work as possible regardless of if they need it or not.
I completely disagree with that statement. I feel that the vast majority of dentists offering cosmetic services are much more concerned for their patients well being than they are for the financial rewards that providing those services bring.

From what I have seen, my biggest gripe with LVI is that they see pathology where none exists. Everybody seems to need a full mouth reconstruction to correct vague occlusal and muscular discrepancies. Maybe my opinion will change as I learn more, but it just seems a little too much like voodoo and chiropractic for my taste.
 

ip

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Just wait till you meet a dentist with training at the Pride Institute. They make LVI docs seem like Mother Theresa.
 
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aphistis

aphistis

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ip said:
Just wait till you meet a dentist with training at the Pride Institute. They make LVI docs seem like Mother Theresa.
Oh goodie. I can't wait. :rolleyes:
 
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aphistis

aphistis

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CorneliusFudge said:
I completely disagree with that statement. I feel that the vast majority of dentists offering cosmetic services are much more concerned for their patients well being than they are for the financial rewards that providing those services bring.
If that's the case, you've been hanging out with an entirely different group of cosmetic dentists than me. All of them I've dealt with have one concern--making the sale, no matter how hard you have to push the patient. The only thing that matters is getting their signature on the dotted line before they leave.
 

sweetgemini

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Bill just becuase you get a bad vibe from LVI, does not mean you start to bash it. A big no no. :barf:
 

drhobie7

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It certainly does say something when a 'cosmetic dentist' pumps out dozens of patients with veneers from 3-14 and the same so called 'perfect smile'.
 

ktcook83

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Bill,

FWIW, I haven't assisted in the practices of anyone who has obtained the "LVIM" credential (las vegas institute master). I have been in practices of docs who took one or two of the courses that were of interest to them and found them useful. The brand of spa dentistry (don't take any insurance be it indemity, HMO, PPO, etc) that LVI preches is just plain stupid, as that market is VERY small. The only guys that can pull that stuff off are the greats Christianson, Hornbrook, Dickerson, Dorfman come to mind. These guys can get away with it because of their names and reputations. As far as reading threads comparing Pankey with LVI a lot of the dentists over on DT say LVI will teach you to overtreat patients, especially when it comes to occlusion. The NM (neuromuscular) school of occlusion they are preaching is complete garbage and it's sad that they are getting away with it. My occlusion prof said that's because occlusal problems have a HUGE placebo effect with Tx.

To sum it up, I enjoy cosmetics (although all dentistry should be cosmetic by nature). I am looking forward to improving my patient's self esteem and image through cosmetic dentistry, but when it comes to taking LVI courses down the line I would consider taking a course here or there on a subject that I might be interested in, but then again, their courses cost a small fortune. I would never do a continum there as there are MANY other places I'd rather spend my future CE budget.

I hope more people weigh in with their experience and opinions. :thumbup:
 
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aphistis

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sweetgemini said:
Bill just becuase you get a bad vibe from LVI, does not mean you start to bash it. A big no no. :barf:
What, are they going to put out a contract on me or something?
 

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Easy tigers. I have been to LVI as a manufacturer dozens of times and have been to 6 or 7 offices of their graduates. There is science there, but I could see how you may have a hard time finding it. LVI is not creating a monster in anyone who didn't already have it in them. There are some great success stories there for both patients and practitioners, but as with anything that visible, you are going to find those that go too far. Just because someone walks out of an office with 16 units doesn't mean they were sold something they didn't need or want. And like it or not, occlusion matters a great deal to people, and proper occlusion is good for more than proper mastication.

All of you will face those challeneges of how to balance your practice with your own place in society and where to draw lines. Keep your mind open. Pankey and Pride do not do the devil's work any more than Rosenthal and Nash. Just find your place where you are happy and your patients will be too. If they don't like it when you tell them they should be happy with B3 centrals, they are free to go somewhere else. If they don't like it when you tell them you can give them 8 uppers and correct a poor smile, they can get another opinion as well. It's what makes your science and business so great -- embrace it!
 
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aphistis

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grownup said:
Easy tigers. I have been to LVI as a manufacturer dozens of times and have been to 6 or 7 offices of their graduates. There is science there, but I could see how you may have a hard time finding it. LVI is not creating a monster in anyone who didn't already have it in them. There are some great success stories there for both patients and practitioners, but as with anything that visible, you are going to find those that go too far. Just because someone walks out of an office with 16 units doesn't mean they were sold something they didn't need or want. And like it or not, occlusion matters a great deal to people, and proper occlusion is good for more than proper mastication.

All of you will face those challeneges of how to balance your practice with your own place in society and where to draw lines. Keep your mind open. Pankey and Pride do not do the devil's work any more than Rosenthal and Nash. Just find your place where you are happy and your patients will be too. If they don't like it when you tell them they should be happy with B3 centrals, they are free to go somewhere else. If they don't like it when you tell them you can give them 8 uppers and correct a poor smile, they can get another opinion as well. It's what makes your science and business so great -- embrace it!
Thanks for chiming in. :thumbup:

But what makes my science great is just that--science. Not used-car-lot crap.

I could tell several stories, but the one that sticks out most in my head is a woman who was clearly economically disadvantaged, and called Dr. X's office for an appointment because she had a toothache. He was so occupied trying to pressure this woman into $25,000 of cosmetics she had neither interest in nor the means to acquire, that he completely forgot to address her chief complaint. No extraction, no pulpectomy, nothing.

I dare anybody to tell me a dentist who tries to push his patients into bank loans for unnecessary treatment, at the complete expense of obvious & urgent problems, isn't an embarrassment to the profession.
 

ca_dreamin'

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I agree 100% that you should always adress any urgent problems immediately.

On the other hand, we have been taught that you should not treatment plan based on a person's financial status - rather their need for treatment. This does not mean that all patients should get $25,000 treatment, but if it is a legit option, it should be presented along with other options that will bring the patient to optimal health, function, etc...

Although I agree with aphistis on this thread completely (I prefer to focus on the science of dentistry - restoring and maintaining health are priority #1 rather than selling/pushing the latest trend), just keep in mind that patients deserve all options -- not just what the dentist "thinks" they can afford.
 

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LVI is crap...that simple...and no Im not gonna waste my time backing it up
 

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ip said:
Just wait till you meet a dentist with training at the Pride Institute. They make LVI docs seem like Mother Theresa.
ip,

The dentist that I have been shadowing for awhile is big on the Pride Institute. I am really interested to hear what you, or anyone else, thinks about that particular CE program.
 

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J2AZ said:
LVI is crap...that simple...and no Im not gonna waste my time backing it up
I don't understand what's wrong with wanting to learn how to have a super successful practice. And what's wrong with wanting to learn more about cosmetic dentistry (which is what the people want)? If you are a huckster, you will always be a huckster, but I can't see LVI turning you into one if you're not already.
 

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ptrianon said:
ip,

The dentist that I have been shadowing for awhile is big on the Pride Institute. I am really interested to hear what you, or anyone else, thinks about that particular CE program.
Don't take my word for anything, I've only met 2 docs that used the Pride system. But from what I saw both guys focused entirely on using psychological techniques to get the pt the accept large treatment plans. Of course everyone does this to some degree but something about the way they did it just rubbed me the wrong way. But I do have to say that they both controlled their offices to the minutia and could spit out their production/collection numbers to the minute at any time.
 

ptrianon

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ip said:
Don't take my word for anything, I've only met 2 docs that used the Pride system. But from what I saw both guys focused entirely on using psychological techniques to get the pt the accept large treatment plans. Of course everyone does this to some degree but something about the way they did it just rubbed me the wrong way. But I do have to say that they both controlled their offices to the minutia and could spit out their production/collection numbers to the minute at any time.
Thanks for the input - this particular dentist is so into the Pride Institute that I was kina eager to hear a different point of view
 

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aphistis said:
Thanks for chiming in. :thumbup:

But what makes my science great is just that--science. Not used-car-lot crap.

I could tell several stories, but the one that sticks out most in my head is a woman who was clearly economically disadvantaged, and called Dr. X's office for an appointment because she had a toothache. He was so occupied trying to pressure this woman into $25,000 of cosmetics she had neither interest in nor the means to acquire, that he completely forgot to address her chief complaint. No extraction, no pulpectomy, nothing.

I dare anybody to tell me a dentist who tries to push his patients into bank loans for unnecessary treatment, at the complete expense of obvious & urgent problems, isn't an embarrassment to the profession.
Bill, stick to those beliefs of yours, practice in your smaller, rural mid-western town, and treat your patienta as you'd want to be treated while your in the chair, and I'll guarentee you that you'll end up making more $$ than just about any of those LVI/Pride folks, plus you're likely to find your conscience resting easier each and every night.

LVI and Pride folks have their place, I just now that it's not in the setting that I like to practice in personally!
 

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Bill et-al,

I spent the year before dental school working for an LVI doc out West as a sterilization tech/everything else and yes, he was kinda of sleaze ball; not the best clinical dentist, but with very good chair side rapport with patients. He had taken the office down to LVI for several courses (me not included) mostly to work on full mouth cases and on his own to for neuromuscular occlusion. Now this practice was the typical “family dentistry” affair but he and the office manager wife were making the push towards more cosmetic dentistry. That not withstanding, this 4 op (2 surgical and 2 hygiene) practice was grossing $104K/mo on an average month, IMHO by over doing crowns. While I did witness the some of the neuromuscular procedures first hand, I did not know enough dentistry at the time to assess anything regarding their effectiveness.

Now, being a student at a D-school where the faculty and administration frankly admit to a severe deficiency in their occlusion curricula, I would count myself as one of those who would need more post-graduate instruction in that field. My point with this is that while I cannot speak to the efficacy of LVI or the neuromuscular occlusion they propound, I can say that there are probably many of us who feel under-prepared and who are seeking supplemental training and information the type of which LVI at least claims to provide. I say, let’s keep an open mind about new or innovative procedures and keep in mind that not everyone seeking to discover what’s new out there is doing it for the almighty dollar.
 
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