Last Chance to Turn Back

[jamesharden]

Amid the chartering of new pharmacy schools, oversaturation situations, and nay sayers, I've come to a point where I am sitting on a pharmacy school acceptance.

I'm looking at my financial aid award letters, and I have a chance to throw it all away and not go into what seems like the dying field of pharmacy.

It's been a very stressful few weeks, and I hope fellow P0's can chime in about what they think?

Also anyone not a P0 is free to say anything too.

Not sure if I should really pursue this career. It's not a passion of mine, but it will pay the bills. And money matters.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Dred Pirate]

Where do you live? where do you wanna work? what other alternative fields are you considering?

 

[BenJammin]

What school?

 

[BMBiology]

How much do you have to borrow including interest? Have you worked in retails? Would you be fine with working for CVS for the next 25 years?

 

[jamesharden]

Where do you live? where do you wanna work? what other alternative fields are you considering?

Southern California, Los Angeles area is home. Will work anywhere, probably within driving distance from home home for the first few years to pay off loans.

Considering PhD or just finding work with a Bachelor's.

How much do you have to borrow including interest? Have you worked in retails? Would you be fine with working for CVS for the next 25 years?

Will be approx 210K in loans, with about a 6% interest average. No work experience in retail. I don't think I would mind working CVS for a few years, but I'm trying to go clinical. Will apply for residencies, or I'm planning on it.

What school?

Western U in Pomona

 

[Dred Pirate]

I will be honest with you - those loans are fricking ridiculous. and at that interest rate - find an alternative to taking those loans weather it be working full time in school (which will help you get a residency - which is HIGHLY competitive) - I cannot comment on quality of school - I am from the east coast. With that student loan payment you will be so far behind the eight ball you will spend your entire life trying to dig out of it. I had half that amount, and an interest rate under 2% and I dread paying it every month for 25 years.

If I had to do it all over again- I would go the PhD route and look at academia in college or university. I got lucky, I graduated right before the onslaught of pharmacists (10 years ago) and got a good job- but I do realize it will be hard for me to move around when I choose to.

 

[jamesharden]

I will be honest with you - those loans are fricking ridiculous. and at that interest rate - find an alternative to taking those loans weather it be working full time in school (which will help you get a residency - which is HIGHLY competitive) - I cannot comment on quality of school - I am from the east coast. With that student loan payment you will be so far behind the eight ball you will spend your entire life trying to dig out of it. I had half that amount, and an interest rate under 2% and I dread paying it every month for 25 years.

If I had to do it all over again- I would go the PhD route and look at academia in college or university. I got lucky, I graduated right before the onslaught of pharmacists (10 years ago) and got a good job- but I do realize it will be hard for me to move around when I choose to.

It is a little ridiculous, but I believe pharmacy pays more in California in general, just by a little bit though. I actually really like the idea of PhD and academia, but it's not as lucrative as pharmacy is.

If I work retail for two years from home, and dedicate all my earnings to paying off my loans, I'll be able to do it in 3 years. Granted, that's a pretty long time. However, if I work residency, that'll be 1 more year or so.

 

[BenJammin]

Pharmacy in CA pays more but the cost of living is higher so you don't come out ahead. Why not go somewhere in Texas or Oklahoma?

 

[Dred Pirate]

It is a little ridiculous, but I believe pharmacy pays more in California in general, just by a little bit though. I actually really like the idea of PhD and academia, but it's not as lucrative as pharmacy is.

If I work retail for two years from home, and dedicate all my earnings to paying off my loans, I'll be able to do it in 3 years. Granted, that's a pretty long time. However, if I work residency, that'll be 1 more year or so.

I know So Cal pays more (but the cost of living will wipe that out - yes - you may make 20k more a year, but I live like a nice life and pay 1000 a month rent - which will go down when I get married and move in together.

Plus - if you go retail, there is a good chance you will get stuck in retail and you will have a hard time getting out. Trust me, at my hospital, if you only have retail experience, your resume doesn't even get past HR.

 

[jamesharden]

Pharmacy in CA pays more but the cost of living is higher so you don't come out ahead. Why not go somewhere in Texas or Oklahoma?

Didn't apply, was planning on staying in California. That's where home is for me. Or are you saying move there for work afterwards?

 

[pharmerjohn]

Southern California, Los Angeles area is home. Will work anywhere, probably within driving distance from home home for the first few years to pay off loans.

Considering PhD or just finding work with a Bachelor's.



Will be approx 210K in loans, with about a 6% interest average. No work experience in retail. I don't think I would mind working CVS for a few years, but I'm trying to go clinical. Will apply for residencies, or I'm planning on it.



Western U in Pomona

What's wrong Dwight, getting cold feet?

Add in living expenses and you'll need more than 210K for the entire 4 years.

 

[BenJammin]

Didn't apply, was planning on staying in California. That's where home is for me. Or are you saying move there for work afterwards?

Both. Cost of living is low, tuition is low, and opportunities are high.

 

[jamesharden]

I know So Cal pays more (but the cost of living will wipe that out - yes - you may make 20k more a year, but I live like a nice life and pay 1000 a month rent - which will go down when I get married and move in together.

Plus - if you go retail, there is a good chance you will get stuck in retail and you will have a hard time getting out. Trust me, at my hospital, if you only have retail experience, your resume doesn't even get past HR.

That's good to know, I'll try to get more hospital experience. I'd prefer the clinical life style over the extra pay from retail

 

[Dred Pirate]

Never pay for a private school education - not worth it - find a public school - four years will be less than 75k - through in making 30k a year working (I made 28k my ast year of pharmacy school) and your loans are a lot less

 

[jamesharden]

What's wrong Dwight, getting cold feet?

Add in living expenses and you'll need more than 210K for the entire 4 years.

Feet have never been colder. Would be easy to just throw it all away, but the opportunity cost is high

 

[jamesharden]

Never pay for a private school education - not worth it - find a public school - four years will be less than 75k - through in making 30k a year working (I made 28k my ast year of pharmacy school) and your loans are a lot less

Waitlisted at UCSF, but the cost of living makes up for the lower tuition there.

Only other option is UCSD, but I would have to apply next year for that. I don't think it's worth 1 year of salary or residency for a little bit less tuition.

 

[Dred Pirate]

That's good to know, I'll try to get more hospital experience. I'd prefer the clinical life style over the extra pay from retail

not even close - I get 7 weeks PDO in a hospital vs 2-3 in retail, after my shift diff and holiday pay - I make maybe 5-10 an hour less - but well worth it in many ways

 

[Dred Pirate]

Waitlisted at UCSF, but the cost of living makes up for the lower tuition there.

Only other option is UCSD, but I would have to apply next year for that. I don't think it's worth 1 year of salary or residency for a little bit less tuition.

how much less tuition?

Out of state?

 

[pharmerjohn]

Feet have never been colder. Would be easy to just throw it all away, but the opportunity cost is high

To be honest, I went through the same dilemma and decided to stick with it. That's only because I calculated that I wouldn't take out more than 150K in student loans as I'll be living at home and have a job and scholarships to help lower the debt burden. What's your situation like?

 

[Dred Pirate]

To be honest, I went through the same dilemma and decided to stick with it. That's only because I calculated that I wouldn't take out more than 150K in student loans as I'll be living at home and have a job and scholarships to help lower the debt burden. What's your situation like?

can I ask why you needed so much student loan while you were living at home? When did you graduate? I went to an expensive school (I spent to much - 20k a year 10 years ago), and took out some living expensive money - and didn't come near 150k -

 

[jamesharden]

not even close - I get 7 weeks PDO in a hospital vs 2-3 in retail, after my shift diff and holiday pay - I make maybe 5-10 an hour less - but well worth it in many ways

7 Weeks paid days off? So 35 days paid?

 

[Dred Pirate]

7 Weeks paid days off? So 35 days paid?

yup - that includes sick time and vacation - in a couple of years I get bumped to 8 weeks

 

[jamesharden]

To be honest, I went through the same dilemma and decided to stick with it. That's only because I calculated that I wouldn't take out more than 150K in student loans as I'll be living at home and have a job and scholarships to help lower the debt burden. What's your situation like?

Similar to yours but plus about 60k in loans. I'm planning on applying for some scholarships too, but I don't think I'd get 10k or over in 4 years of scholarship.

 

[BMBiology]

Will be approx 210K in loans, with about a 6% interest average. No work experience in retail. I don't think I would mind working CVS for a few years, but I'm trying to go clinical. Will apply for residencies, or I'm planning on it.

I am familiar with Western.

If you are also borrowing for living cost, you are going to graduate with 300 k in student debt. Calculate it here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/calculated-cost-of-pharmacy-school.989770/

10 year repayment plan (300 k plus 6% interest): http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

$3330 a month x 10 years (virtually impossible to pay off in 10 years). Expect to pay 35% tax in California (federal, state, social security, medicare).

You would need to get on PAYE or IBR for 20-25 years which allows you to pay less per month but in the long run, you will be paying all of the principle plus 20-25 years of interest.

If I were in your shoes, I would ask myself why am I taking this much loans when I don't have a passion for this profession (very few people do btw). The last gravy train left in 2008.

 

[jamesharden]

yup - that includes sick time and vacation - in a couple of years I get bumped to 8 weeks

lol that's actually amazing, kinda makes me wanna go into pharmacy way more now

 

[pharmerjohn]

can I ask why you needed so much student loan while you were living at home? When did you graduate? I went to an expensive school (I spent to much - 20k a year 10 years ago), and took out some living expensive money - and didn't come near 150k -

That's the maximum amount that I'm estimating. I will graduate in 2017.

 

[pharmerjohn]

Similar to yours but plus about 60k in loans. I'm planning on applying for some scholarships too, but I don't think I'd get 10k or over in 4 years of scholarship.

What about a job? I'm working about 30hrs/week... It'll help make a dent, I'm sure.

 

[Dred Pirate]

That's the maximum amount that I'm estimating. I will graduate in 2017.

gotcha - I also am from the midwest - I rented a three bedroom town home and split it 3 ways and paid $250 a month in rent, 15 min drive to school and work, and lived cheap - natty light was my drink of choice.

We actually had 3 UCLA grads in my PharmD class, and they were all amazed at how cheap they could live here

 

[Dred Pirate]

What about a job? I'm working about 30hrs/week... It'll help make a dent, I'm sure.

good for you - that is what I did - and in the summer - bump it up to 50-60.

Plus if you desire a residency, if I see that- I automatically bump you to the top of my list

 

[jamesharden]

I am familiar with Western.

If you are also borrowing for living cost, you are going to graduate with 300 k in student debt. Calculate it here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/calculated-cost-of-pharmacy-school.989770/
10 year repayment plan (300 k plus 6% interest): http://www.finaid.org/calculators/loanpayments.phtml

$3330 a month x 10 years (virtually impossible to pay off in 10 years)

You would need to get on PAYE or IBR for 20-25 years which allows you to pay less per month but in the long run, you will be paying all of the principle plus 20-25 years of interest.

If I were in your shoes, I would ask myself why am I taking this much loans when I don't have a passion for this profession (very few people do btw). The last gravy train left in 2008.

Honestly, I think most people in this decade are going into pharmacy because of bad economic advice from the previous generation. I'm a victim of this, and it's kind of too late for me to really turn my career around. It's not my passion, but it will make enough money for me to numb the pain away. I won't need living fees, will be living at home, and I'll be working part time.

 

[pharmerjohn]

gotcha - I also am from the midwest - I rented a three bedroom town home and split it 3 ways and paid $250 a month in rent, 15 min drive to school and work, and lived cheap - natty light was my drink of choice.

We actually had 3 UCLA grads in my PharmD class, and they were all amazed at how cheap they could live here

Yup, it's a lot cheaper here in the southwest than in LA as well. I was a Bruins, so I know how expensive it was being sandwiched between Santa Monica, Bel Air and Beverly Hills. Here in the southwest, everything suddenly became relatively affordable.

 

[pharmerjohn]

good for you - that is what I did - and in the summer - bump it up to 50-60.

Plus if you desire a residency, if I see that- I automatically bump you to the top of my list

Nice! It's tough, but whatever helps with the ever-growing cost of higher education. Plus, my company gives tuition reimbursement, so it's a nice chunk of change as well.

 

[BMBiology]

....but it will make enough money for me to numb the pain away.

I am not doubting you but I would not assume this. It's going to get worse especially in California. At least four more schools are about to open in California.

 

[jamesharden]

I am not doubting you but I would not assume this. It's going to get worse especially in California. At least four more schools are about to open in California.

Yeah, it appears that 2018 is going to be the peak of saturation in California. I'm not particularly worried about how I will distinguish myself from others, I feel good about my ability to get my feet in doors. But I mean, we'll see what actually happens. Maybe the oversaturation will lead to a marxist revolution, hopefully that happens to spice up things.

I'm just curious if there are a lot of people who regret going into pharmacy

 

[BMBiology]

I would only go into pharmacy today if:

-I can graduate with < 150 k which basically means in California, I would need to live at home and work at least 20 hours a week (not easy considering the workload and limited intern hours). Most students work just 8 hours a week.

-I have worked in a pharmacy especially retail and I would be fine with working for CVS for the next 25 years. I know we all dream about being a "clinical pharmacist" (a pure clinical pharmacist doesn't exist outside of academia) or work in the pharmaceutical industry but lets be honest here. The vast majority of graduates will be stuck in retail.

-I have a proven record of being an exceptional undergraduate. Don't underestimate your classmates. Don't think you are going to work harder than them. Don't think you are smarter than them. If you are just like 90% of your undergraduate friends then most likely you are not going to stand out in pharmacy school.

 

[jamesharden]

I would only go into pharmacy today if:

-I can graduate with < 150 k which basically means in California, I would need to live at home and work at least 20 hours a week (not easy considering the workload and limited intern hours). Most students work just 8 hours a week.

-I have worked in a pharmacy especially retail and I would be fine with working for CVS for the next 25 years. I know we all dream about being a "clinical pharmacist" (a pure clinical pharmacist doesn't exist outside of academia) or work in the pharmaceutical industry but lets be honest here. The vast majority of graduates will be stuck in retail.

-I have a proven record of being an exceptional undergraduate. Don't underestimate your classmates. Don't think you are going to work harder than them. Don't think you are smarter than them. If you are just like 90% of your undergraduate friends then most likely you are not going to stand out in pharmacy school.

Interesting, thanks for the insight. Can't check off number 1, it's just impossible in California unless you're a San Diego native. Can't check number 2, but the only thing I have going for me is 3.

If I don't get a residency, the worst that can happen is working for retail, which pays significantly more. I suppose if that happens, I would just save money to pay off loans and save for a down payment on a house. Afterwards, maybe leave the pharmacy profession and pick up something more fulfilling, careerwise and work part time pharmacy.

 

[fauxden]

eh, too lazy to go blah blah blah....so yeah. don't do it.

 

[BMBiology]

If I don't get a residency, the worst that can happen is working for retail, which pays significantly more. I suppose if that happens, I would just save money to pay off loans and save for a down payment on a house. Afterwards, maybe leave the pharmacy profession and pick up something more fulfilling, careerwise and work part time pharmacy.

Just to be honest here. Don't assume you will get a retail job if you can't get a residency. The retails mainly just hire their own interns now. Residency is also not guarantee. It is still very competitive even with a residency. With the amount you are borrowing, you would not be able to "leave the profession and pick up something more fulfilling". That is simply not possible.

 

[BMBiology]

Have you ever worked in a pharmacy?

 

[jamesharden]

Just to be honest here. Don't assume you will get a retail job if you can't get a residency. The retails mainly just hire their own interns now. Residency is also not guarantee. It is still very competitive even with a residency. With the amount you are borrowing, you would not be able to "leave the profession and pick up something more fulfilling". That is simply not possible.

I'm well aware of the fact that unemployment in pharmacists will surge to about like 20-30% or so, but looking at the other side shows you that more people will be employed than will be unemployed. That means if you're an entering student, you have more than a 50% chance of being employed. That means you just have to be better than 1 person in your class, in the most simplest possible explanation. I do think it is possible to pay off my loans in 3 years, granted I find a job commutable from LA and I suffer for 3 years.

 

[jamesharden]

Have you ever worked in a pharmacy?

Nope. Have a family member in pharmacy though, which is the only reason why I'm even in this deep. I'll probably hate it, but I've hated all my jobs. I just haven't been compensated as much as a pharmacist would though

 

[Gombrich12]

If the economy wasn't so bad you wouldn't even be looking at pharmacy. I don't know what to tell you, but it sounds like you shouldn't be going into pharmacy. If you're an exceptional student there is always med school. No one knows what pharmacy will be like in 6 years, but most people would agree that things won't be getting better. You may be looking at graduating with $200,000 in loans and having to move to Clover, North Dakota to make $90,000 a year in a CVS. Not worth it.

 

[jamesharden]

If the economy wasn't so bad you wouldn't even be looking at pharmacy. I don't know what to tell you, but it sounds like you shouldn't be going into pharmacy. If you're an exceptional student there is always med school. No one knows what pharmacy will be like in 6 years, but most people would agree that things won't be getting better. You may be looking at graduating with $200,000 in loans and having to move to Clover, North Dakota to make $90,000 a year in a CVS. Not worth it.

Holy crap, it's that bad? North Dakota?? That's definitely not worth it. What about provider status passing in California? Does that have any implications to the market?

 

[Gombrich12]

Provider status seems like it would affect a very small number of practicing pharmacists maybe < 5%. After all there are already so many mid level providers out there that many people don't see the need for pharmacists as providers. As for North Dakota, I was half way joking. No one knows what 6 years will bring, but we've gone from 7000 pharmacists graduating a year to 15000 in about 15 years. Pharmacy is like a healthy 75 year old man, they may look good and feel good but things can and will go south fast, you just don't know when.

 

[BMBiology]

"Provider status" is just another buzz word to me. When I was in school, it was "clinical pharmacy". Before that, it was "pharmaceutical care". When I graduated, it was "MTM". Now it is "provider status".

 

[jamesharden]

"Provider status" is just another buzz word to me. When I was in school, it was "clinical pharmacy". Before that, it was "pharmaceutical care". When I graduated, it was "MTM". Now it is "provider status".

I see. MTM does sound pretty meaningless and irrelevant from what I've heard. Honestly, I find it difficult to believe that so many people have a "passion" for pharmacy. I'm sure most people do it for the money.

 

[Kelp103]

I really think everyone applying to pharmacy school should have retail experience. You don't want to get there and realize you CANNOT do this for the rest of your life. I really want to work in a hospital, but if I can't, I KNOW I can do retail fine. That's a lot of debt to be taking on to possible hate your job :-/ There are a lot less stressful jobs that still pay very well.

 

[pharmerjohn]

I'm sure most people do it for the money.

Everyone does it for the money. No one works for free... Of course, it doesn't hurt if you enjoy what you're doing as well. Try getting a tech job and see how you like it. I've worked as a tech for a while now, and there are certain aspects that I could honestly say that I really enjoy.

 

[Momus]

It is a little ridiculous, but I believe pharmacy pays more in California in general, just by a little bit though. I actually really like the idea of PhD and academia, but it's not as lucrative as pharmacy is.

You are getting about 5 extra/hour in CA. So, that's 10k/year gross, after fed and state tax is around $6500. You know what you can get for $6500 in CA? Absolutely nothing. WOOT for $550 extra a month... Try to check your neighborhood apt rent/house price for a sticker shock when you decide to finally be an adult and move out of your parent's home >_>; In fact, if you factor in the cost of living in CA, you'd actually getting about 10-20k LESS pay than other pharmacists that are living else where. CA resident will most likely have less disposable income after factoring high cost of living.

I'd kill my self to be in your situation and go with MD route.

 

[useruseruser]

This thread is depressing.

To the OP, I don't recommend going to pharmacy school in your case. I feel future pharmacy students should have some experience in retail and be comfortable working there (even if their eyes are on a residency). The majority of jobs for pharmacists are in retail so I think it's only necessary to have that idea of what working will actually be like. You also seem to be restricting yourself to a tight job market in socal. If you aren't willing to relocate out of area/state, then obviously your job opportunities are limited (and competition is getting tight..). And you'll have loans.

Consider other careers. Why pharmacy? It seems like you're income-driven. There's other fields in healthcare that make good money too. Sometimes I feel like I should aimed to be a PA instead.