Last minute RoL explanation needed

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I'm just wondering if someone can help explain to me a small point I'm confused about regarding the RoL both we and the residency programs will be making. The best way I can ask this question is by asking a hypothetical, so suppose you go on an interview where 20 spots will be offered and 50 interviewees will be ranked. You decide to rank the program #1, and are ranked #30 by the program. There are also 2 other hypothetical interviewees who went, are ranked within the top 20 by the program, and these applicants rank the program #2 rather than #1. My question then is, what has more weight? Would my ranking the program #1 have more influence than the program itself ranking other applicants who placed the program lower in on their RoL?

I am torn between ranking a program with 10 spots higher than a program with 20 spots, but I believe the program with 20 spots will rank ME higher. Advice? Thank you in advance.
 
In the hypothetical you posted, the other two interviewees would match at the program (provided they didn't match at their number 1).

For your situation, the only correct answer is to rank the programs in the order you like them. There is no "gaming" of the system here, either from your or the programs perspective.

The match is not a bunch of magnets where you et pulled in a bunch of directions and end up wherever the magnetic field was strongest. It's a clearly defined, and well designed, algorithm. I suggest you read about it in the nrmp site for your own peace of mind. Do so tonight before lists are due tomorrow.
 
turkeyjerky said:
In the hypothetical you posted, the other two interviewees would match at the program (provided they didn't match at their number 1).

For your situation, the only correct answer is to rank the programs in the order you like them. There is no "gaming" of the system here, either from your or the programs perspective.

The match is not a bunch of magnets where you et pulled in a bunch of directions and end up wherever the magnetic field was strongest. It's a clearly defined, and well designed, algorithm. I suggest you read about it in the nrmp site for your own peace of mind. Do so tonight before lists are due tomorrow.
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ahh ok, it sounds to me then like the match is more geared towards filling the programs order of preference then rather than the applicants. thanks for the explanation.
 
drg2546 said:
ahh ok, it sounds to me then like the match is more geared towards filling the programs order of preference then rather than the applicants. thanks for the explanation.
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No, it's technically more toward the applicants preference than the program's preference, which has been explained in other threads. Like here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=888047
In your scenario, the other 2 people would rank at that program ONLY if their # 1 program did not rank them high enough to match there, thus the program you mentioned would become their new # 1 and they would match there before you because the program ranked them higher than you. Then if you do not match at your #1, your #2 becomes your #1 and so on...
 
drg2546 said:
I'm just wondering if someone can help explain to me a small point I'm confused about regarding the RoL both we and the residency programs will be making. The best way I can ask this question is by asking a hypothetical, so suppose you go on an interview where 20 spots will be offered and 50 interviewees will be ranked. You decide to rank the program #1, and are ranked #30 by the program. There are also 2 other hypothetical interviewees who went, are ranked within the top 20 by the program, and these applicants rank the program #2 rather than #1. My question then is, what has more weight? Would my ranking the program #1 have more influence than the program itself ranking other applicants who placed the program lower in on their RoL?

I am torn between ranking a program with 10 spots higher than a program with 20 spots, but I believe the program with 20 spots will rank ME higher. Advice? Thank you in advance.
Click to expand...

First, you need to read up on the match algorithm on the NRMP website.

Do not rank a program higher on your ROL just because they have more slots or because you think you're more likely to match there. You should rank programs based solely on your personal preference. The match gives you the opportunity to reach for those competitive programs without the danger of missing out on other programs as a result. Not ranking based on your preference defeats the entire purpose of the match.
 
The match works in the applicants favor, as the others have said.

In your hypothetical scenario, the other 29 people in front of you are, in theory, strong applicants and will probably be ranked highly at other places. As long as those 29 people don't want to go to the same program, chances are these applicants will match where they would rather go (and not where this specific program wanted them to).

The idea is that where YOU want to go will also be a place where THEY wanted you to go. It works well for both the applicant and the program.
 
I find the frequency with which this question shows up to be remarkable. It makes me wonder how many medical students end up at somewhere other than their "real" first choice because they thought it would increase their chances of matching. The NRMP has a truly fantastic explanation that is only a couple pages long. One of these threads should become a sticky in the forum so we can avoid 100 iterations of this same question.
 
Another question would be: how many ppl can truly get into their #1 program!
 
Cathyran said:
I find the frequency with which this question shows up to be remarkable. It makes me wonder how many medical students end up at somewhere other than their "real" first choice because they thought it would increase their chances of matching. The NRMP has a truly fantastic explanation that is only a couple pages long. One of these threads should become a sticky in the forum so we can avoid 100 iterations of this same question.
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I absolutely agree.

Here is the NRMP page that explains it beautifully: http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/about_res/algorithms.html

Someone please sticky that...

And to cattyjane, here is the answer: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2011.pdf
Table 15 answers your question. Last year, 52.6% matched at their first choice.
 
Another question on a separate but related subject of determining if a program has placed you on their rank list. Using the tracking feature on the ERAS (ADTS), you can determine when a program downloads your updated information. Let's say you updated your PostOffice with new materials such as a recent Step 2 score post-interview and see that it has not been downloaded by the program prior to tomorrow. Does this mean you are no longer being considered by the program and therefore they are not downloading it, or is it just that they have already formulated their rank list and the Step 2 score is not something they are requiring or considering for your rank? Thanks.
 
PSurg530 said:
I absolutely agree.

Here is the NRMP page that explains it beautifully: http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/about_res/algorithms.html

Someone please sticky that...

And to cattyjane, here is the answer: http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2011.pdf
Table 15 answers your question. Last year, 52.6% matched at their first choice.
Click to expand...

I guess I wrote a retorical question. If half of us do not get into first spots, then there is no way of answering a theoretical question as the first poster posted, because you do not know how many people truly matched into that particular program before you do. It's hard to analyze the match algorithm. Everything is a gamble, for both applicants and the programs.
 
Phyozo said:
Is there data anywhere with table 15 broken down by specialties? I'd imagine that percentage is a lot lower for derm than family.
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Yes, they do. Just check out the Charting Outcomes in The Match document on the NRMP page. They actually breakdown the probability of matching in very specialty based on number of ranks, AOA status, Step 1/2 scores, etc.
 
learss79 said:
Yes, they do. Just check out the Charting Outcomes in The Match document on the NRMP page. They actually breakdown the probability of matching in very specialty based on number of ranks, AOA status, Step 1/2 scores, etc.
Click to expand...

This isn't what I'm interested in though. The "Charting Outcomes..." breaks down the probability of matching in a given specialty based on those things, but will only tell you whether one matched or not. I'm interested in knowing % applicants matched into 1st choice vs 2nd vs 3rd vs 4th choice on ROL for any given specialty.
 
Cathyran said:
I find the frequency with which this question shows up to be remarkable. It makes me wonder how many medical students end up at somewhere other than their "real" first choice because they thought it would increase their chances of matching. The NRMP has a truly fantastic explanation that is only a couple pages long. One of these threads should become a sticky in the forum so we can avoid 100 iterations of this same question.
Click to expand...

Ever wonder why there's a verbal section on the MCAT? Here's why.
 
Mortal_Lessons said:
Another question on a separate but related subject of determining if a program has placed you on their rank list. Using the tracking feature on the ERAS (ADTS), you can determine when a program downloads your updated information. Let's say you updated your PostOffice with new materials such as a recent Step 2 score post-interview and see that it has not been downloaded by the program prior to tomorrow. Does this mean you are no longer being considered by the program and therefore they are not downloading it, or is it just that they have already formulated their rank list and the Step 2 score is not something they are requiring or considering for your rank? Thanks.
Click to expand...

The answer is B.

As time progresses, it becomes less and less important to download new information about applicants. In my case, I stop checking daily about a week after our appliction deadline, and after the rank order meeting the downloads become sporadic at best.

Also, programs can't select what we download--once we click on "Contact ERAS Post Office," anything in the que gets sent. So if a program hasn't downloaded your updated information, they haven't downloaded anyone's updated information. If your Step 2 score is high and hasn't been downloaded, there's no reason you couldn't contact the program coordinator to provide the information. Just make sure you do it today.
 
Program ROLs get submitted tonight too correct? According to the NRMP website it says they do, but I'm wondering if someone involved in the program side of things can comment.
 
Green Grass said:
Program ROLs get submitted tonight too correct? According to the NRMP website it says they do, but I'm wondering if someone involved in the program side of things can comment.
Click to expand...


Yes, programs have the same deadline.
 
Quick question: If I'm matching into an advanced position with a corresponding supplementary list attached, however I did not have any prelims/TYs to go along with that advanced position and would rather scramble if I match there, do I leave that supplementary list area blank or create a supplementary list and put "No Match" in it? Thanks!
 
knr228 said:
Quick question: If I'm matching into an advanced position with a corresponding supplementary list attached, however I did not have any prelims/TYs to go along with that advanced position and would rather scramble if I match there, do I leave that supplementary list area blank or create a supplementary list and put "No Match" in it? Thanks!
Click to expand...

Quick question: Why would you want to screw yourself like that?
 
knr228 said:
Quick response: Couple's matching with my husband.
Click to expand...

Quick follow-up question: So you'd rather go unmatched (and potentially give up your advanced position if you don't successfully scramble) and perhaps not get to practice medicine than spend one year apart?
 
gutonc said:
Quick follow-up question: So you'd rather go unmatched (and potentially give up your advanced position if you don't successfully scramble) and perhaps not get to practice medicine than spend one year apart?
Click to expand...

There are ALWAYS unmatched prelims. I doubt knr228 would have to give up their advanced position. That seems a little drastic.
 
Green Grass said:
There are ALWAYS unmatched prelims. I doubt knr228 would have to give up their advanced position. That seems a little drastic.
Click to expand...

But she would rather have to scramble to an unknown prelim, likely in a city where her husband isn't, than just make a prelim list for that program full of programs she knows about and has a modicum of control over?

Because that's insane.
 
That's very true. I guess my only thought is that she doesn't have any of her prelims/TYs remotely close to that one specific program and possibly thinks she could scramble into something in the same city/area? Which would ultimately be a better situation...after the stress of the SOAP process.
 
Green Grass said:
That's very true. I guess my only thought is that she doesn't have any of her prelims/TYs remotely close to that one specific program and possibly thinks she could scramble into something in the same city/area? Which would ultimately be a better situation...after the stress of the SOAP process.
Click to expand...

Precisely. I'm not going to waste my time trying to explain my situation further. Cheers!
 
Green Grass said:
That's very true. I guess my only thought is that she doesn't have any of her prelims/TYs remotely close to that one specific program and possibly thinks she could scramble into something in the same city/area? Which would ultimately be a better situation...after the stress of the SOAP process.
Click to expand...

As someone applying to prelims, I just can't imagine knowing the bolded part. Do people have insider information that I missed somehow?
 
umz said:
As someone applying to prelims, I just can't imagine knowing the bolded part. Do people have insider information that I missed somehow?
Click to expand...

I read somewhere on this site that if you match advanced but not prelim you're allowed to call the NRMP and find out what city/region your advanced spot is in so that you can use SOAP to get a prelim in the same region. No idea if that's true or not.
 
umz said:
As someone applying to prelims, I just can't imagine knowing the bolded part. Do people have insider information that I missed somehow?
Click to expand...

You can probably scramble prelim surgery in any region; it might be NYC or something with a lot of soap spots.
 
Yea NYC was the only thing that came to mind, but still.. What a risk.
 
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