Last Second Decision Time

[tco]

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Disclaimer: If you have a few minutes, and want to give some advice, what I want to hear or otherwise, you can read over this thread. If not, don't worry about it, I'm sort of using this thread as a blog for guidance from people that are where I am and are where I want to be.

I'm currently stuck at "the" spot in the AMCAS application. Once I select my Med schools, I have to indicate if I have interest in the MD/ Ph.D. programs. If you would have asked me a year ago, I wouldn't have hesitated to say, "No interest." Here's a bit of my story...

When I went into undergrad, I wasn't too sure of what to do with my life. I started out as a psychology major and found it boring and obnoxious. At that point, golf was the biggest part of my life. Playing for my college team was all that mattered to me. Meanwhile, back home, my aunt had just become a nurse. When I went home for the summer, we ended up talking about some of the experiences she had with patients.

To keep a long story short, her attitude about the service that she was performing for her patients made me interested in medicine. My attitude of being a leader (and maybe some inital prejudices against being a nurse...Yeah, sorry...Don't have those anymore though!) pushed me onto the path of being a doctor.

Again, to keep a longer story even shorter, you could say that I was less than a dedicated student until I found science. At first my dedication was based on the fact that I knew I had to study hard to get good enough grades to get into medical school. The first semester was difficult, but I managed. About halfway through it I realized that I loved learning...I started studying not only for grades, but simply because I wanted to know everything about whatever I was invovled with. I was...Am...addicted. My GPA has risen from a 3.4 at the end of my freshman year to a 3.77 now, at the end of my Junior year, while only taking science classes.

I'm worried, however, that my lack of research experience will hurt me. Last semester I did a little bit of reserach, not much. Next semester, I'm planning on doing it daily with a Cell and Molecular professor. This summer, I'm doing an internship with an MD/PhD student (in a PhD's lab) at WVU, and it's what has really piqued my interest in research. It's been a three-halves experience, if that makes any sense. Half exhilerating, half boring, and half humbling. I've loved journal club and discussing science with cutting-edge researchers, performing *some* of the experiments, and most of all, the results. Whenever we get a result, no matter if it's what we expected or if it's what we didn't expect, I immediately go into analytical mode and want to understand why the result is the way it is. I'm trying to figure out how to justify how little research I've done so far. I guess I could say that I've done research for nearly half of my science career.

I'm planning on shadowing a lot as soon as my internship is over with to figure out if I think that I would just LOVE clinic or not. If this is the case, I'll most likely do a research residency after graduation. In one way or another, I'm planning on having research as a part of my life for a long time to come. However, with my personalitiy, I don't think clinic is going to be something that I want to do for 8-10 hours per day for the rest of my life. My personality is that I like people (sometimes), but when they whine and do stupid things, I get annoyed. I'm also going to try to look at surgery and radiology to get a broader range of specialities. I know that makes me sound very empathetic, so it's no wonder why I'm trying to be a doctor...Truthfully, though, even while being annoyed at the ***** that shot himself in the leg with a nailgun or the dolt that thought it would be okay to eat the turkey and mayo sandwich after it was left in the sun for three hours, I can't help but want to help them get back to health as fast as possible and resume their idiot ways. Takes all kinds to make the world go round. (I'll most likely be looking into an oncology/hematology/ID/etc speciality if I am an MD/Ph.D.)

I'm currently planning on applying for the MD/PhD program. If, after the summer rotations, I decide that it's not for me, I'll regretably resign from the program and persue an MD degree. I just don't really want to be one of those people that looks back on their life and regrets something major. The biggest thing holding me back from trying this is the time aspect, and less so, the money. 1) The time part is going to look pretty stupid 40 years from now when 3-5 more years could have got me into the career that I may have prefered. 2) The money issue is going to look silly when I'll be making 100-150 k per year. How much money is enough, really? I don't need to be a millionaire to be happy...

I've put a lot of thought into this, and I've read a lot about it recently, especially from links provided in these fourms. I'm not asking for you guys to make a decision for me. I'd be a ***** to ask for advice like that from a website. I don't really know, maybe I'm just asking for you to skim this over and say good luck. If you want to know something specific before replying, please ask because any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[tiedyeddog]

maybe I'm just asking for you to skim this over and say good luck.

Good luck! Could you list these things ( are you even looking to see if you're competitive? I'm not sure of the responses you're looking for...)
1. GPA
2. MCAT
3. Years of research experience and if you're published, how involved you were in the research?

You don't have to do these things, I'm just wondering. A ton of my friends go/went to WVU and I'm from West Virginia. Hope you're having fun in the "mountain momma". haha.

 

[tco]

Good luck! Could you list these things ( are you even looking to see if you're competitive? I'm not sure of the responses you're looking for...)
1. GPA
2. MCAT
3. Years of research experience and if you're published, how involved you were in the research?

You don't have to do these things, I'm just wondering. A ton of my friends go/went to WVU and I'm from West Virginia. Hope you're having fun in the "mountain momma". haha.

I'm not sure what responses I'm looking for either! Hahaha.

1. 3.77 (It's been a 4.0 since I switched to science)
2. ? Took it on the 18th...We'll see. I'm planning for the worst and will start studying soon in prep for the dreaded possible retake.
3. Not a full year. I started doing basic lab-prep stuff last semester for my Cell and Molecular class. We did some Northern and Western blots, PCR, elutions, basic lab stuff like I said. This summer is a pretty intense internship that is 40+ hours per week. We're doing a few more advanced things like ELISAs, confocal, apoptosis assays, CO-IPs, and GST pulldowns. I've never been published, and probably won't be, but I'm very involved with the research this summer. I'm doing about half of everything that the MD/PhD student does. For instance, if we do an ELISA in triplicate, I would do two of the three assays.

I hail from the northern panhandle of West Virginia, born and raised (Brooke County). I go to Concord University, actually. Ideally, I would want to go to Pitt. UPMC is an amazing healthcare system, and Pitt has a joint MD/PhD program with Carnegie Mellon 😍

I wouldn't be upset to go to WVU, they have some amazing researchers there as well, especially in cancer biology and pharmacy. I'm under the mindset that it's not the school that makes the experience, it's you. Granted, awesome research equipment helps...

 

[Ariodant]

Get together a mdapp file may help people who want to give you some detailed advices.

It may be too much pressure to try to up your GPA further, ace the MCAT, get a full year of research and clinical experience while applying in your senior year. If you don't mind, take a year off, and postpone you application. I'm one of the (too) cautious kind here, and I just don't want to see people rushing into the competition.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Ah, I'll PM you where I'm from in WV, I don't like being super specific on here about who I am, I'm applying in the 2010 matriculation year so I've got a year to go.

 

[tco]

I'll work on an mdapp profile...

Taking a year off is a last ditch option. I really want to avoid that if at all possible.

 

[tco]

http://mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?myid=11152

Arodant, maybe I'm being arrogant here, but I think I'm already competitive for my in-state schools. Depending on my MCAT score, which could either be bust or boom, I feel that I have a good shot at either Marshall or WVU for either MD or MD/PhD. Pitt is a different story. After those three, I don't really know where I should be looking.

I'm very interested in a lot of things. So far, my research has been limited to protein interactions, but I find it extremely fulfilling. I would most likely want to go into Cancer/Cell Biology or Biochemistry.

 

[Ariodant]

I don't think you are being arrogant, but without a MCAT score no one can fully assess an applicant's competitiveness with reasonable accuracy. I'm only giving out my personal opinion, based on my personal (i.e., limited) experience and philosophies. Besides the unknown MCAT scores, I'm mostly concerned about your research experience. One summer and one semester is less than average, and it may hurt you to various degrees depending on the school.

Give our advices a good thought, but don't take them overly serious. Neither I nor anyone on the forum can accurately predict your success. I feel that you will have a better shot if you take a year off to beef up your resume, but you may already have a good enough chance for what you are aiming for. Before the end of the cycle, no one will know.

Whatever you decide, good luck

 

[tco]

I would just hate to take a year off. The time issue is the one that is making me stagger right now, so another year would really be a kick to the stomach.

From what I know of the application process at WVU, the medical school accepts the student initially, then the PhD program decides if they want them or not. Theoretically, the student could be accepted to med school and not the PhD program. Is this possible everywhere? If so, I would be perfectly happy to just become an MD and do a research residency. I would prefer MD/PhD, but that extra year really makes me shy away.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Fyi, I don't think marshall's MD/PhD program is fully funded. Also, I don't think a pre-exsisting cirriculum is arranged to completing grad classes during MSI and MSII, which might lead to forcing you into a longer overall program. I'd call and find out exactly how the program is run before considering it....

 

[CancerKiller007]

My two cents: research experience is the most important thing in this process. I would suggest that you take a year off and conduct full time research. The reason being: there is a huge difference between being an intern and being a fellow. You need to be absolutely sure about your passion for MD/PhD and this year off will not only give you chance to do that but also give you chance to do extensive shadow and community service. I am not sure where you wanna go for medical school, but this preparation in combination with your pysch undergrad will help you a lot to be competative at most schools! Hope this helps.

 

[magwi11]

I am inclined to agree with Ariodant, you don't have as much research experience as most MD/PhD applicants will, and that might hurt you. That being said, if you're determined to apply this year, you might want to stay open to the option of applying to the MD/PhD program internally (after MS1 or MS2) if you get in MD-only.

Also, it seems like you might be a little short on clinical experience, and planning on doing it in the future doesn't come through on an application. This doesn't matter as much for MD/PhD admission, but it WILL hurt you in MD only consideration.

I know it's not what you want to hear, but I think that while you are applying to medical schools, you might want to also look into/apply to options for a year off. I'm not saying that you won't get in, but it is possible that you won't. I am also saying that you seem like EXACTLY the type of person who will have a MUCH more convincing application 1 year from now (shadowing, more research, etc.). If you apply for research assistant positions/ research fellowships while applying to schools, you can always turn them down if you get in, and if you don't, you won't be left with the challenge of finding something to be doing with that year off at the last minute.

I would like to say, it is admirable that you have managed to put together an application as impressive as this with a late start. You clearly have worked hard, and I'm sure that one way or another, you'll be successful.

 

[tco]

Thanks everyone, for all of the advice and kind words. For the record, as soon as I finish this internship (this week), I'll be shadowing ER doctors, ear/nose/throat specalists, geriatrics specialists, a cardiologist, and hopefully an oncologist before I go back to school. It's already set up with the doctors so I'm going to put it on my AMCAS application as already in progress, just so I can send it in fairly soon.

I'm pretty sure my decision will be as follows:

I'll be planning on going to medical school next year. If I have to pay for it, so be it. If I still have this interest in research, but don't get accepted to an MD/PhD program, I'll apply from within. When I go back to school, I'll also apply for research assistantship jobs.

If I don't get accepted to a school and I apply while in medical school, will my chances of being accepted be any better?

Also, the research world is a curious one...We were just talking about this today. As a graduate student, most schools don't even care if you have research experience. They figure that they'll teach you as you go on. The MD/PhD program is becoming so streamlined that, unless you have a years worth of experience, most schools don't even interview you. Which is funny because, as in my case, it could cost me an extra year.

 

[tco]

Oh, I forgot to ask, since I'm going to try to go that route, should I apply to WVU, Marshall, and OSU (I'm going to call Marshall tomorrow about funding) for MD/PhD and Pitt and UNC for MD?

If I'm not accpeted for MD/PhD, can I still be accepted for MD? It's a worrysome process because I'm not sure if it's all-or-none or not.

Thanks again.

 

[Ariodant]

It depends on the school. I believe Pitt only considers you for MD-only if you are rejected by MSTP, which puts you at a disadvantage. The admissions website for each school would have more info on the policies.

 

[mudphudwannabe]

I'm just not getting the feeling that you have a strong interest in research. Aside from whether or not you could actually get into an MD/PhD program, I'd be afraid to commit to 4+ years of the PhD without a really strong motivation to do research, and some solid experience so you know at least a little bit of what you're getting into. I wouldn't count on lab rotations to give you a good enough idea of what research is like. If you are truly serious about research, it would be well worth your time to work full time in a lab as a technician and see what it's all about.

Also, don't forget that you can certainly do research with an MD only.

It would probably be helpful to talk to the director of the MD/PhD program at your school so you can get a better idea of what you might be getting yourself into and what your chances are.

 

[tco]

We didn't even have a pre-medical club until a few friends and I started it last semester. No one at my school even has that great of an idea of what an MD/PhD is.

I have a good idea of what's involved in it. I've been following around an MD/PhD student who will be headed back to med school next year for 40 hours/week for the past 2 months...

Like I told her, it's not that I'm worried that I wouldn't like research, it's that I'm worried that my "lack" of experience in it will put me out of the running for most programs. If the schools have an all or none policy (meaning either MD/PhD acceptance or bust), I'd be out on my ass for a year. I really, really, really, really don't want that to happen.

She said, at least at WVU, that wouldn't happen. In fact, you get two seperate acceptance letters for the MD then the MD/PhD program here.

 

[mudphudwannabe]

If, after the summer rotations, I decide that it's not for me, I'll regretably resign from the program and persue an MD degree.

This is one comment in particular that made me think you are not really serious. I have not heard of anyone going into MD/PhD with such an attitude. All your rotations might suck (some of mine did!), but you still might really enjoy research in the end - you should not think of them as a trial period for whether or not you will like research.

I think I'm wasting my breath, but I do think that applying with only 1 year of undergrad research experience is going to be a waste of your time and money. Also, as someone else mentioned, your lack of clinical volunteering/shadowing is going to be a real problem if you apply MD-only.

 

[tco]

(Disclaimer: If you want to skip some of the banter and move on to what I've decided, go to the last paragraph)

Well, you're right, you are wasting your breath, but I appreciate you stating your opinion. I'm going to what I want, no matter what the opinion on the board (or from anyone else) is. I just wanted to see what everyone thought, and like I said, I appreciate the opinion.

Maybe I wouldn't feel the way I do if the MD/PhD student that I was interning under this summer was not a member of the acceptance board for the program last year at WVU. Maybe I also wouldn't have that opinion if she didn't hold what I have done so far this summer in such high regard. She honestly believes that, after this experience and with the past research experience that I've had, and considering the fact that my MCAT scores aren't back yet, I probably will get interviews at multiple schools for either the MD or the MD/PhD program. I've been weighing a lot of factors for the past month and a half, and it's been very high and low. With the conclusions that I've been able to make, the experiements that I've been able to perform, and the excitement that I've had in lab, I'm pretty sure that I could see myself doing research for the next 40 years.

Addressing the whole lack of experience...Assuming I get an interview, by the time my they roll around, I will have some significant clinical time (daily for a full month with no less than 4 specialists), and another full semester of research experience. If a month in clinic and a year and a half of research, 3 months of it being full time, wouldn't make me competitive for a lot of programs (maybe not MSTP funded, but maybe so) then there isn't much more barring publication that would.

The fact of the matter is that I think it's *****IC to wait a year and be a lab tech to see if I like research so much or not. That's wasting a year in my opinion. Assuming that I would be accepted, working towards the degree for a year and loving it would be far more productive than being a lab tech for a year and loving it. Besides, I'm going to try to go to medical school reguardless and if I would washout of the PhD portion and be forced to repay for the medical schooling that I had recieved, I'm not out of anything but my time. In the end, it's not about time, it's about doing what you want with your life.

I like to consider my situation an extremely unique one. As of right now, I do love research, but I can't look 5, 10 years down the road. As of right now, I really want to be involved with the clinic and developing medicinal treatments, but again, I can't see 5 or 10 years down the road. Since I've only been involved with science for a short period of time, (I didn't even take anything beyond basic 10th grade science in HS) I don't think it's logical for me to be absolutely certain that either of these is the right career for me. Heck, for most people in their careers, they're not even sure that it's the right career for them! Given the time restraints that I've been faced with for most of my young science career, I honestly believe that diving in for the MD/PhD now is a smarter move than waiting to build my resume and then doing it with no absolute certainty that my resume will look that much more impressive in the future when compared to now.

Finally, my decision. Since I'm such an "in the moment person" and I live for passion, I'm doing MD/PhD. It's less money and more training, assuming that I'll make a good research scientist, but I think it'll be worth it. After next semester begins, I'll be filling out applications for lab tech jobs as a backup for rejection from all programs. I, honestly, don't see this happening, and will be planning on going to medical school next year as an MD/PhD student.

Thank you all for your comments and suggestions.

I apologize for this post being so poorly written. I've been to oral and poster presentations all day, have been racking my brain all day, and am extremely tired and hungry. Good day!

 

[tiedyeddog]

Good luck!

 

[anemone2]

best of luck!

 

[ecoli]

tco - I agree that it would really be a waste of a year. I hope for your sake the adcoms agree.

 

[tco]

Alright, a little update. I did fairly well on my MCAT, but nothing stunning, except for maybe the Marshall University admissions lady...It was kinda funny. Here's a brief of how the phone conversation went:

Me : I'm looking at applying for your MD/PhD program.
Her: I can only answer questions about the MD portion.
**skip ahead in the convo**
Me: Okay, but can you at least tell me if the PhD portion requires the GRE.
Her: Yes, it does (Me *rolls eyes*). Are you looking to be primairly a researcher?
Me: No. I want to be primarily a doctor, but also a researcher. I looked into fellowships, but I think it's silly to spend a year to two years to become a second rate researcher. *thinking to myself, I **** excellence!!!*
Her: Well do you have your MCATs back and primaries in, working on your secondary application and such?
Me: Yes, my MCATs came in and primary is almost on its way out.
Her: Well being in the middle of August and not having your primary in will certainly hurt your chances for acceptance to medical school. What were your scores?
Me : *announces scores*
Her: Oh my! That's wonderful!...(Me thinking, "Wtf?" Way to be professional...)And you're really a WV resident?
Me: Yes.

Needless to say, if anyone was looking at Marshall for MD/PhD, don't. It's a waste of time. They're obviously grasping at nearly anyone if my scores impressed her that much.

It's a hectic time in the admissions world, and I've been trying to get in touch with a few programs. I believe that I'm a strong MD candidate, but less so with the PhD portion, as has been expressed in this thread. Does anyone know if the general rule is (and better yet, has this happened, to your knowledge?), "One can be accepted to medical school, but not to the MD/PhD program," as it is with WVU? If it's not, I would have to seriously consider applying strictly to MD for very competitive schools and do a research fellowship after.

Thanks.

 

[Kraazy]

I hate to echo what so many have said before, but I strongly, strongly recommend you take a year off. Not only to beef up your resume, but to give yourself the time to rally think about whether you want to invest the time and effort into an MD/PhD, as opposed to, say, a research fellowship post-MD. Do NOT apply for MD/PhD thinking that you will have the option to back out later. (Keep in mind you may be taking a spot away from someone else). If it really worries you that much to add a year until the time you finish training, are you really committed to a program that would take you 8 years to complete? Doing research full-time day in, day out for a year can also be very different from an internship. It seems that you are a good candidate for MD/PhD, but make sure that MD/PhD is right for you...it's a 2-way road.

For the record, I applied after 2 years off, and it was the best thing I could have done. I was much more confidant that the MD/PhD was right for me, it helped me discover my interests and define my goals, not to mention the resume boost. It's a hard decision, but I don't know anyone who has regretted it. Frankly, there is no way I would be where I am now had I not taken the time off. Good luck, and keep us posted.

 

[smoke47]

I'm currently planning on applying for the MD/PhD program. If, after the summer rotations, I decide that it's not for me, I'll regretably resign from the program and persue an MD degree.

I agree with Kraazy. As another applicant, I find it disturbing that you could potentially get into an MD/PhD program with this sort of attitude and take a spot from me or someone else. I just hope that there aren't lots of other applicants out there with this same attitude.

 

[JHopRevisit]

I was much more confidant that the MD/PhD was right for me, it helped me discover my interests and define my goals, not to mention the resume boost.

Nice logo, see you for lunch tomm. 😉

 

[HansSpemann]

My opinion, and it is just an opinion, is that you have NO research experience--relatively speaking. Being an MD, PhD's lab b**** is not the same as working and developing an independent project. Yes, you may now be acclimated with running westerns and such, but you have not been involved in the extensive planning--as well as the success and failures of the process--that are the real challenge in research. Limited research is not a liability to your application in the regard that you do not have a lot of skills, rather, it is a liability because you have no experience of experiment planning, as well as the extended low points (several months) when your research fails to work. If you've never faced adversities or roadblocks in the lab before staring the program, you'll have considerable problems in grad school once you do face problems because the stakes are considerably higher. Additionally, I find it unnerving that you referred to your last semester as 'off an on.'

Don't think of it as a year off, think of it as a year on: taking time off will allow you to further your research experience and strengthen your application. A school such as OSU or Pitt has far more resources available for students than WVU, so if you REALLY want to pursue research, it seems pragmatic to make yourself competitive for these schools so that you can have the best education possible. Remember, if it’s worth doing, it’s worth doing well

 

[QofQuimica]

Don't think of it as a year off, think of it as a year on: taking time off will allow you to further your research experience and strengthen your application. A school such as OSU or Pitt has far more resources available for students than WVU, so if you REALLY want to pursue research, it seems pragmatic to make yourself competitive for these schools so that you can have the best education possible. Remember, if it’s worth doing, it’s worth doing well

This is good advice.

OP, to give you some perspective, I began medical school at the age of 31 (after doing my MS and PhD). There is no law saying that you must begin at age 22; in fact, the average entering age for medical students is a few years older (more in the 24-25 range). If you were over age 30 and thinking about an MD/PhD, sure, then time would be a major issue. But you are so young and have so much of your life ahead of you that you cannot even comprehend how silly it is to worry about starting medical school at age 23 instead of age 22.

I know nothing about WV schools, but you yourself said that the program at Marshall isn't very good. Why on earth then are you still entertaining the thought of going there? Focus on making your app as strong as you possibly can so that you will be able to attend a program like Pitt that gives you the best opportunities instead of whatever program will take you with a half-baked app. I think you will find that when you are older, you would regret not living up to your potential much more than you would regret taking an extra year to be the best applicant and MD/PhD you are capable of being. Best of luck to you. 🙂