Lawsuit threatens Remington

[dpmd]

I am not a progressive. I am closest to a classical liberal, what tends to be called libertarian in this country. This is why I tend to agree with @pgg much more frequently than with @vector2.

I just love animals, even the ones I eat. And, while I am a hypocrite, I am not hypocrite enough to not even acknowledge my hypocrisy.

Do yourself a favor and read up on the practices of the meat/corn industrial complex (when compared to the traditional grass-fed free-range organic small farm). It's like comparing Auschwitz to the American dream.

Does them being delicious and nutritious not qualify to you as a good enough reason for it to not be murder? Or do you agree with my killing for a good reason isn't murder stance?

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[deleted171991]

Does them being delicious and nutritious not qualify to you as a good enough reason for it to not be murder? Or do you agree with my killing for a good reason isn't murder stance?

I regret having to kill truly intelligent life (and I do love pork and bacon and keto). If I had to do it myself, I would probably become a vegetarian (or eat just birds and fish). Let's not mention the contribution of industrial meat farming to global warming.

I am an addict. All I am asking the other addicts here is to realize what we are doing. There will come a time, in the history of humanity, when we'll look back on our meat-eating habits the same way we look down on the sacrificial slaying of animals on the altars, thousands of years ago.

Read "The Omnivore's Dilemma", watch documentaries about the food industry, and you won't look at industrial meat (or food) the same way.

 

[dannyboy1]

I regret having to kill truly intelligent life (and I do love pork and bacon and keto). If I had to do it myself, I would probably become a vegetarian (or eat just birds and fish). Let's not mention the contribution of industrial meat farming to global warming.

I am an addict. All I am asking the other addicts here is to realize what we are doing. There will come a time, in the history of humanity, when we'll look back on our meat-eating habits the same way we look down on the sacrificial slaying of animals on the altars, thousands of years ago.

Read "The Omnivore's Dilemma", watch documentaries about the food industry, and you won't look at industrial meat (or food) the same way.

I love animals. Especially when they are on my plate......

 

[Mad Jack]

You are conflating having the physical force to defend a right and the actual existence of the right

You being strong enough to rape someone doesn’t at any point mean they don’t have a right to not be raped. They don’t need your agreement for them to have a right to not be raped.

In a universe in which we exist by chance or by the whims of an absent God for either no reason at all or reasons that have not been made open to our understanding, in which life, and thus actions, have no inherent meaning, the only right or wrong is that upon which we agree. I happen to believe people have rights, because I believe we share the obligation to one another to make our persistence in a chaotic and seemingly uncaring universe more bearable for one another. Persistence is our shared struggle in the face of uncaring existence, and the great evil is to make others suffer more than is necessary in an existence that is already chock full of suffering.

While I believe in God, the simple fact is the existence or lack thereof does not change the fact that we should treat one another well, and alleviate one another's suffering to the extent that we can spare. That is the basis upon which societies formed, regardless of their belief in a great god or gods, woodland spirits, their ancestors, or nothing appreciable that we can discern based upon their remains. It is in that shared understanding that rights are upheld as a good, but without that shared understanding, rights exist only in the grand abstract realm of social philosophy that spawned them in the first place.

Rights, as we understand them, did not exist in prior historical era, nor will they likely persist after the fall of modern civilization, for they are only sustainable as a concept when we live in a world of plenty with relative peace. When resources become scarce, the rights of neighbors to their property and lives become increasingly flimsy to most, leading to invasion, pillaging, and war for survival. So yeah, rights are a concept that essentially is historically novel in their current incarnation and will be unrecognizable within a few hundred years

 

[deleted480308]

I regret having to kill truly intelligent life (and I do love pork and bacon and keto). If I had to do it myself, I would probably become a vegetarian (or eat just birds and fish). Let's not mention the contribution of industrial meat farming to global warming.

I am an addict. All I am asking the other addicts here is to realize what we are doing. There will come a time, in the history of humanity, when we'll look back on our meat-eating habits the same way we look down on the sacrificial slaying of animals on the altars, thousands of years ago.

Read "The Omnivore's Dilemma", watch documentaries about the food industry, and you won't look at industrial meat (or food) the same way.

I won’t live as long as it would take for me to view meat eating as a moral wrong

 

[deleted480308]

In a universe in which we exist by chance or by the whims of an absent God for either no reason at all or reasons that have not been made open to our understanding, in which life, and thus actions, have no inherent meaning, the only right or wrong is that upon which we agree. I happen to believe people have rights, because I believe we share the obligation to kne another to make our persistence in a chaotic and seemingly uncaring universe more bearable for one another. Persistence is our shared struggle in the face of uncaring existence, and the great evil is to make others suffer more than is necessary in an existence that is already chock full of suffering.

While I believe in God, the simple fact is the existence or lack thereof does not change the fact that we should treat one another well, and alleviate one another's suffering to the extent that we can spare. That is the basis upon which societies formed, regardless of their belief in a great god or gods, woodland spirits, their ancestors, or nothing appreciable that we can discern based upon their remains. It is in that shared understanding that rights are upheld as a good, but without that shared understanding, rights exist only in the grand abstract realm of social philosophy that spawned them in the first place.

Rights, as we understand them, did not exist in prior historical era, nor will they likely persist after the fall of modern civilization, for they are only sustainable as a concept when we live in a world of plenty with relative peace. When resources become scarce, the rights of neighbors to their property and lives become increasingly flimsy to most, leading to invasion, pillaging, and war for survival. So yeah, rights are a concept that essentially is historically novel in their current incarnation and will be unrecognizable within a few hundred years

We’re gonna disagree here

 

[dpmd]

I won’t live as long as it would take for me to view meat eating as a moral wrong

How about purposefully treating the pre meat animal poorly without a good reason (this is not me arguing that commercial raising of meat producing does or does not do this, let's presume something like punching an animal who is just standing there and you are trying to move it or stop a fight or anything, just punching because they feel like doing it)

 

[deleted162650]

something like punching an animal who is just standing there

just punching because they feel like doing it

Everyone knows this is how you get the most tender steaks.

 

[deleted480308]

How about purposefully treating the pre meat animal poorly without a good reason (this is not me arguing that commercial raising of meat producing does or does not do this, let's presume something like punching an animal who is just standing there and you are trying to move it or stop a fight or anything, just punching because they feel like doing it)

I don't approve of cruelty for cruelty's sake, less because of the animal than for the likelihood that I see that treatment later being applied to other humans

 

[deleted171991]

I won’t live as long as it would take for me to view meat eating as a moral wrong

It's all a matter of being informed. Trust me, when you see those images of "protein farms", you will feel something. It may not stop you from eating meat (you are an addict, after all), but you'll definitely not be the same afterwards, and you won't laugh at "liberal" animal rights activists anymore. You can't unsee that kind of image.

On the other hand, eating a lot of meat is not good for your health, regardless what the corn/meat industry likes to brainwash you into. "Whole foods" are not just a liberal fad and conspiracy against middle America; there is actually serious science there. If I look back at what I ate in my childhood and what I eat now, I can't not notice the industrial garbage generations X, Y and Z are eating.

 

[deleted480308]

It's all a matter of being informed. Trust me, when you see those images of "protein farms", you will feel something. It may not stop you from eating meat (you are an addict, after all), but you'll definitely not be the same afterwards, and you won't laugh at "liberal" animal rights activists anymore. You can't unsee that kind of image.

On the other hand, eating a lot of meat is not good for your health, regardless what the corn/meat industry likes to brainwash you into. "Whole foods" are not just a liberal fad and conspiracy against middle America; there is actually serious science there. If I look back at what I ate in my childhood and what I eat now, I can't not notice the industrial garbage generations X, Y and Z are eating.

you really underestimate the knowledge base of those who disagree with you on this

I absolutely laugh at anyone who has "no one can eat meat anymore" as their goal, screw them

 

[deleted171991]

you really underestimate the knowledge base of those who disagree with you on this

I absolutely laugh at anyone who has "no one can eat meat anymore" as their goal, screw them

I have no such goal. I am only trying to improve my own habits. I am slowly getting to an age where I am beginning to pay for my bad choices.

What's opened my eyes the most was how cheap and easy buying healthy food in Paris or London is, and how slim those people look when compared to us.

 

[deleted480308]

I have no such goal. I am only trying to improve my own habits. I am slowly getting to an age where I am beginning to pay for my bad choices.

What's opened my eyes the most was how cheap and easy buying healthy food in Paris or London is, and how slim those people look when compared to us.

you can eat healthy in the states for reasonable amounts too, it's just a choice to not do so

 

[deleted171991]

you can eat healthy in the states for reasonable amounts too, it's just a choice to not do so

Sorry, you're wrong. It is much more expensive to eat healthy here. It's also harder to buy healthy stuff, especially if one doesn't shop at Whole Paycheck.

 

[deleted480308]

Sorry, you're wrong. It is much harder to eat healthy here (unless one is vegetarian), especially if one doesn't shop at Whole Paycheck.

sir/ma'am, I go to grocery stores too, you can't tell me healthy food is impossible to buy

 

[deleted171991]

sir/ma'am, I go to grocery stores too, you can't tell me healthy food is impossible to buy

It's not impossible, sir, just much harder. Americans are not more obese than Europeans because we are lazier etc., it's because our food is much worse, starting with the antibiotic-, hormone- and corn-infested garbage they sell us as meat.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

It's not impossible, sir, just much harder. Americans are not more obese than Europeans because we are lazier etc., it's because our food is much worse, starting with the antibiotic-, hormone- and corn-infested garbage they sell us as meat.

Organic, hormone free, non-corn fed meat is not hard to find and isn't that much more expensive (on the order of $1.50/pound at my local Publix).

 

[pgg]

It's not impossible, sir, just much harder. Americans are not more obese than Europeans because we are lazier etc., it's because our food is much worse, starting with the antibiotic-, hormone- and corn-infested garbage they sell us as meat.

It depends where you live in the USA. As with most problems in the United States, it starts and ends with poverty.

It's pretty well documented that grocery stores in general have razor thin profit margins (a couple percent). Traditional grocery stores that offer a wide variety of prepared foods, raw staples, produce, and fresh meats are becoming scarce in poorer areas. USDA even has a name for these regions, "food deserts" ...

There are several reasons why, but the biggest is the huge growth of dollar stores (again - poverty driven). About the only thing you can buy at a dollar store for a dollar is a pre-processed factory-excreted single or family size serving of something with a shelf life measured in months if not years.

For middle class or better areas, it's not harder to buy healthy food, and it's actually less expensive. Compare a TV dinner from the freezer aisle, or a box of microwavable frozen Jimmy Dean egg sausage biscuit sandwiches ... to a box of pasta, a bag of rice, a bag of beans, and some cheap but healthy cut of meat. A nicely marbled ribeye is obviously costly, but a 2 pound package of plain chicken breasts is far cheaper on a dollar/gram-of-protein basis, than the Cup O Noodles, Slim Jim, or can of Dinty Moore stew at the Dollar Store.


Time to prepare foods is another major factor. Europeans, with their 35 hour work week, and less time wasted commuting alone in cars (drive-thru coffee/breakfast anyone?), simply have more time to prepare their own meals.


Beyond the above, laziness absolutely is a core issue. Middle class and wealthier people (with more leisure time) tend to be less obese than poor people. They absolutely can buy healthier food, they just choose not to. Sweet fatty foods are tasty and easily available. They eat them because they're tasty and convenient.


When it comes to obesity and other health issues, these are far more significant factors than any leftover traces of growth hormones that were injected into a cow two months before slaughter. High fructose corn syrup is easy to avoid if you don't eat or drink sweetened pre-prepared foods ... but dollar stores sell grape soda, not grapes. Antibiotic overuse is a separate issue. Antibiotics have half-lives measured in hours, so a chicken breast in a grocery store isn't going to have a non-homeopathic dose that could affect a human who eats it. (And antibiotics don't cause obesity anyway.)

The anti GMO, anti growth hormone, anti antibiotic "organic" food movement in the United States is a racket that mostly preys on uninformed people with disposable income to pay for those marketed-as-premium products. We have outstanding quality food available in the US. For all the contempt I have for certain 3-letter government agencies, the FDA is one that does a good job. Our food is clean, safe, cheap, and plentiful. We're a fat country for cultural and economic reasons.

 

[pgg]

I regret having to kill truly intelligent life (and I do love pork and bacon and keto). If I had to do it myself, I would probably become a vegetarian (or eat just birds and fish). Let's not mention the contribution of industrial meat farming to global warming.

I am an addict. All I am asking the other addicts here is to realize what we are doing. There will come a time, in the history of humanity, when we'll look back on our meat-eating habits the same way we look down on the sacrificial slaying of animals on the altars, thousands of years ago.

I feel the same way about killing and eating animals. They're so tasty though. I'll probably never give up eating them. My only major concession in that direction so far in my life is to buy beef 1/4 animal at a time from a local source where the animal lived in a pasture, not a feed lot. But yeah, I'm addict too.

150 years from now it wouldn't surprise me if our descendants looked at our meat production and eating habits the way we look at the cotton plantation slave trading of 150 years go.

Thousands of years ago, those sacrificed animals were typically still eaten after being bled out on the altars. They weren't raised in cages, either.

 

[deleted480308]

I feel the same way about killing and eating animals. They're so tasty though. I'll probably never give up eating them. My only major concession in that direction so far in my life is to buy beef 1/4 animal at a time from a local source where the animal lived in a pasture, not a feed lot. But yeah, I'm addict too.

150 years from now it wouldn't surprise me if our descendants looked at our meat production and eating habits the way we look at the cotton plantation slave trading of 150 years go.

Thousands of years ago, those sacrificed animals were typically still eaten after being bled out on the altars. They weren't raised in cages, either.

I also have a goal of buying bulk/farmer direct one day

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I also have a goal of buying bulk/farmer direct one day

A number of my wife's partners do this and swear buy it. The only reason we don't is my freezer is full of deer that I hunt (which I guess is the same idea in that it's a whole animal at a time not raised in a cage).

 

[vector2]

I feel the same way about killing and eating animals. They're so tasty though. I'll probably never give up eating them. My only major concession in that direction so far in my life is to buy beef 1/4 animal at a time from a local source where the animal lived in a pasture, not a feed lot. But yeah, I'm addict too.

150 years from now it wouldn't surprise me if our descendants looked at our meat production and eating habits the way we look at the cotton plantation slave trading of 150 years go.

Thousands of years ago, those sacrificed animals were typically still eaten after being bled out on the altars. They weren't raised in cages, either.

I'm never going to quit eating meat either, but for me, I found the immorality of eating meat indisputable after I read this essay many years ago. It's simply a logical contradiction that human beings could respect the concepts of sentience or the capacity to suffer or right to life but think that those things could only apply to human beings.

https://spot.colorado.edu/~heathwoo/phil1200,Spr07/singer.pdf

 

[deleted171991]

When it comes to obesity and other health issues, these are far more significant factors than any leftover traces of growth hormones that were injected into a cow two months before slaughter. High fructose corn syrup is easy to avoid if you don't eat or drink sweetened pre-prepared foods ... but dollar stores sell grape soda, not grapes. Antibiotic overuse is a separate issue. Antibiotics have half-lives measured in hours, so a chicken breast in a grocery store isn't going to have a non-homeopathic dose that could affect a human who eats it. (And antibiotics don't cause obesity anyway.)

The anti GMO, anti growth hormone, anti antibiotic "organic" food movement in the United States is a racket that mostly preys on uninformed people with disposable income to pay for those marketed-as-premium products. We have outstanding quality food available in the US. For all the contempt I have for certain 3-letter government agencies, the FDA is one that does a good job. Our food is clean, safe, cheap, and plentiful. We're a fat country for cultural and economic reasons.

You're both right and wrong.

Yes, we eat higher portions. Yes, our bad food is cheaper than our good food (same as in Europe). Yes, we move less (those 500 calories/day add up to 60 pounds extra/year). But the truth is more complicated than that, because calories are not everything. The hormonal milieu matters a lot. The bowel flora matters a lot (many obese people have different ones than slim people). Even corn fed to animal matters; the meat has a different chemical structure (not proven to matter yet). Our food is anything but clean or safe; it's mostly industrial garbage. We don't have farms, we have factory farms. And somehow I have trouble believing that, in the entire Western culture, Americans are the only ones with bad eating habits or poor.