Lawyer in Medical School, having doubts!

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How old will you be by the time you finish residency?
How much debt have your incurred thus far and how much will you have incurred when finishing residency?
Have you considered completing the MD, and in conjunction with your legal background find work in at a medical institution's Ethics and Humanities department (my school has one) or even pursuing medical malpractice law (the latter is not a troll question)?
 
just to keep in mind leaves of absence are never a positive for you residency application
 
That blanket statement is not correct.

There are many acceptable reasons for a LOA; some reasons may include:
  • Research
  • An additional graduate degree
  • An international educational opportunity
  • Extramural elective opportunities (outside of your medical school)
  • Family leave or medical leave
  • Additional time to study for boards
  • Customized curriculum
  • Other personal reasons
 
Did you work as a lawyer before med school? What kind of income you expecting? $250k can be a larger obstacle for many lawyers.

PS, medical school sucks. Residency is just a little bit better, and being staff is SO MUCH BETTER. There are lots of training options for low back pain. Medicine will give you more control and likely more income, but that is going to be 7 years of poo in the meantime.

7 years is a long time if it isn’t something you really want to do.
 
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So you just finished MS1, and therefore have yet to start your clerkships? If so, you have not yet experienced actually talking to patients, taking their HPIs, and doing their PEs. Does your school finish preclinical classes in MS2 and start clerkships in the 2nd half of MS2? If so, perhaps you can wait to experience clerkship first and then have more info to make a determination whether continuing medicine is the correct path for you.
 

Could you realistically manage your existing $250K debt with the type of law you'd be willing to practice?

Have you ever shadowed DR? Can be super flexible, even 100% telework.
 
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If you have a law degree and a medical degree you would make a very compelling recruit for a VC firm or other consulting businesses. I think I read on here before someone graduated and went straight to work at Medtronic and now runs their clinical trials.

If you have a very narrow interest in medicine, it makes the rest of it quite a bit of a slog. I think you could easily achieve what you are looking for via either PM&R, a sports medicine fellowship via one of the pathways or even MSK radiology though the latter is longer than the other two.

I think an LOA is not as bad as it seems to most people. I think it demonstrates introspection and maturity and a deliberateness to decision making. Several of my classmates took LOAs for similar reasons as you mentioned (one was in a real dark place). All of them came back and were more successful and rejuvenated for it.

Pushing through is probably the worst advice to give, it leads to much unhappiness and resentment and is probably more of surefire path to hating further training then taking an LOA.
 
DV-T said:
That blanket statement is not correct.

There are many acceptable reasons for a LOA; some reasons may include:
  • Research
  • An additional graduate degree
  • An international educational opportunity
  • Extramural elective opportunities (outside of your medical school)
  • Family leave or medical leave
  • Additional time to study for boards
  • Customized curriculum
  • Other personal reasons
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I dont see how any of those would be perceived more positively. Surgery PD's for subspecialties at my school said if you take a research year its looked down upon and that was a shared value across other programs. SO as my original statement says taking a leave of absence will not benefit your residency app i didnt claim it would completely hurt it. Gotta read
 
SweetBurger said:
I dont see how any of those would be perceived more positively. Surgery PD's for subspecialties at my school said if you take a research year its looked down upon and that was a shared value across other programs. SO as my original statement says taking a leave of absence will not benefit your residency app i didnt claim it would completely hurt it. Gotta read
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Conversely at my institution we view LOA favorably and it comes up in rank discussions so long as it’s well explained (at least in the 2 departments where I interview). A straight shot from high school to residency is not necessarily the preferred standard anymore
 
Dr G Oogle said:
Conversely at my institution we view LOA favorably and it comes up in rank discussions so long as it’s well explained (at least in the 2 departments where I interview). A straight shot from high school to residency is not necessarily the preferred standard anymore
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Not trying to be nit picky but wouldn't the fact that it needs to be "well explained" imply its not favorable. Feel free to disagree or say that's wrong
 
SweetBurger said:
Not trying to be nit picky but wouldn't the fact that it needs to be "well explained" imply its not favorable. Feel free to disagree or say that's wrong
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I don’t mean they have to have a sworn affidavit about their whereabouts, an acknowledgment of the LOA and detail about what they did with time off and what they learned from experience is certainly expected. Simply having a year long absence on your application without any sort of explanation would be odd, but short of I went away to a sleep away camp with bars on the windows pretty much any scenario would be acceptable if there was evidence of personal growth.
 
It's not that most doctors are incompetent with treating lower back injuries. They are just tough to treat. But you don't know what you don't know.

Medicine is a difficult and long road. I don't think it's worth getting an MD without residency, because its just a degree without any significant clinical experience. If I were you, I would continue building your career with the JD degree. You'll be in less debt, and you'll be better off 3-4 years from now than if you were to spend the time getting your MD degree and starting over with your career.
 
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Dr G Oogle said:
Conversely at my institution we view LOA favorably and it comes up in rank discussions so long as it’s well explained (at least in the 2 departments where I interview). A straight shot from high school to residency is not necessarily the preferred standard anymore
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How would one view a LOA favorably? I totally understand it not hurting you, but favorably, I don't know about that.
 
"how incompetent most doctors are at helping these patients"...Are you for real. That is such a ignorant statement. Sure, are there doctors that may be incompetent in helping patients with "common lower back injuries", but to say "most doctors" are, is just incredibly stupid. Please go back to the law and maybe you can out those "incompetent doctors."
 
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Browns99 said:
How would one view a LOA favorably? I totally understand it not hurting you, but favorably, I don't know about that.
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Depending on circumstances it is often a sign of introspection, maturity and self growth, particularly if they are struggling before the LOA and then come back and do better, I find that to be very compelling evidence of resiliency and self preservation, 2 things I would value in a trainee and a doctor.
 
Dr G Oogle said:
Depending on circumstances it is often a sign of introspection, maturity and self growth, particularly if they are struggling before the LOA and then come back and do better, I find that to be very compelling evidence of resiliency and self preservation, 2 things I would value in a trainee and a doctor.
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I get what you're saying, but I would think most would agree that taking a LOA cannot be viewed as a something positive as opposed to the student not taking one. By your interpretation, someone who had taken a LOA would be viewed more favorably than someone who did not when you noted that it comes up in ranking. Again, a LOA does not have to be viewed negatively or as you said can even be inspirational, but to generally say it's looked upon positively, I can't agree with.
 
Browns99 said:
I get what you're saying, but I would think most would agree that taking a LOA cannot be viewed as a something positive as opposed to the student not taking one. By your interpretation, someone who had taken a LOA would be viewed more favorably than someone who did not when you noted that it comes up in ranking. Again, a LOA does not have to be viewed negatively or as you said can even be inspirational, but to generally say it's looked upon positively, I can't agree with.
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If all things are equal and one person took an LOA and then was successful after that I tend to argue that I would prefer that person. But things are not black and white like that and LOAs are not that common. So I think it’s fair to say that having an LOA is not usually detrimental but probably not an “advantage” either
 
It's a lot easier to explain an LOA if you're a nontraditional.
I didn't end up doing it, but I considered a travel RN year between 3rd and 4th year, and I know that wouldn't have been frowned on during interviews. (I was told many times in my interviews that my RN work during COVID was seen as very, very positive)

A lawyer taking a year off to practice law (especially if you can come up with a compelling reason) could be seen as an interesting addition to a CV instead of a drawback. (Caveat to the above, I'm just an M4 and don't want to claim any expertise that isn't mine, these are just my opinions)

All that aside, the time to decide if you want to be a physician is BEFORE medical school. 100% figure out if you want to be a doctor before you go back to doctor school. The methods employed to do that are traditionally shadowing and good old fashioned soul searching/ seeking wise counsel
 
You can certainly make well over $250k in PM&R. I do inpatient and am quite a bit above that. Half the day I have to myself in my office as you say you'd like. But that means I'm charting for half the day! However, I do inpatient, not MSK/hips/back. Most outpatient PM&R practices doing low back pain/etc will obviously be in clinics, so you'll be going to/from your office (possibly a shared workroom) and patient rooms throughout the day. So not to0 much prolonged time by yourself.

You can absolutely be a spine specialist. It's a bit niche and will require a decent sized area. Also, because there are so few of us (and by extension, fewer open jobs per city), you'd have to be open to re-locating.

I do get the sense from your posts however that your heart isn't quite in the medicine game. And it's a miserable game to be in if your heart isn't there. PT is a wonderful hands-on option. You could probably grab part-time or per-diem work to allow room for that small business venture you talk about. PT unfortunately doesn't pay great though, so your debt will be an issue. But don't go into medicine just to pay off your loans--you'll just be stuck with golden handcuffs. Better is to do something you like and is sustainable and do PAYE/IBR/REPAYE and pay 10-15% of your income for 20-25 years and get forgiveness.
 
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I'm going to be done with residency at 40, and I have >$450k from med school alone, so I'm in a pretty similar situation to you both age-wise and financially. As a nontrad who also worked before med school, I had many, many points where I thought about dropping out to rejoin the workforce or taking a LOA, mostly in the first two years because I straight up hated just sitting in a chair and studying instead of being productive. Now that I'm a fourth year just waiting to match, I'm glad I'm still here.

If you were still deciding, I'd say go back for your PT based on what you've said - but you're already in med school. You're in the tougher program to get in, which has higher income capabilities, so it simply does not make financial sense to quit and go for your PT. I'm also not convinced that you know enough about the day to day practice of medicine to know that you're going to dislike it. You definitely could still end up enjoying it.

You also don't know that you're going to stick with your current plan. I know, I know, you know what you want to do... but I worked in healthcare for five years before med school and was absolutely do or die about my specialty, didn't want to be a physician if I couldn't do it... and then I changed my mind in third year. Literally anything is possible.

The first two years are very different than working with patients. I would do at least a few rotations in third year, and especially focus on finding a PM&R rotation, before deciding whether or not to quit. Take a big old slice of humble pie and check your attitude at the door, though. You're not going to do well in your clinical years if anyone even picks up a wisp of a feeling from you that you think most doctors are incompetent at treating something. Even if you did happen to have an incompetent preceptor, which isn't impossible, it would not benefit you or your rotation grades to appear to be anything other than eager to learn and pleasant to be around.
 
So what defines a great physical exam of the lower back and what is missed by "many physicians" and PTs?
 
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Look at the bright side though. If you advertise that you are a holistic back specialist you’ll
have an endless line of patients waiting to see you. You should even write the “what your doctors don’t want you to know about back pain” book.

In all seriousness it’s fine to have an interest in something. Yours is is just super narrow and probably a dead end. Unless you become a spine surgeon where you can make a money doing “useless” surgeries while working on non-op approaches as well.
 
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I am currently a student in a DPT program and we learn how to exam the lower back and other parts of the body exactly as you just described. We typically get a 1 hour time slot for the initial examination to get all of that done. PT's don't have a great salary compared to MD/DO but it sounds like rehab is more of your passion. And if you got into med school, you would definitely get into DPT school.
 
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You’re mostly interested in back/hip pain, and starting a small business. It doesn’t sound like you actually want to be a doctor, which is fine. Lots of people don’t want to be doctors. But if your interest is that narrow, everything else you have to do while in medical school-literally the other 99%-probably isn’t worth slogging through. Even once you get into physiatry residency, you’ll find yourself in a wide variety of rotations, the majority of which aren’t going to let you focus completely on the back/hip, either.

Have you looked into ergonomics? Sounds like it might be up your alley. And typically is a masters or PhD, which isn’t easy by any means, but is often less all-encompassing and doesn’t take 8 years.
 
Sounds like you’re really struggling.

It only gets harder and even if you didn’t do the LOA, you’d have 2.5 years from now before you’d get to start doing what you want. And that assumes you match PM&R.

I don’t care what anyone says, a LOA is a red flag unless you did it to enhance your CV. You really want to go back, not match and be forced to be a 40 year old miserable FM attending?

Stick to law.
 
I think you need to figure out whether medicine is something you really want to do. I don’t think anyone can make that decision but you.

In terms of areas of medicine where you might be able to utilize your legal expertise: if you’re at all interested in psychiatry, you should consider forensic psychiatry. I’m a forensic psychiatrist, and really love the work. I get to review the discovery on all sorts of interesting cases, including murder cases. I get to talk to defendants about their offenses and form an opinion on whether they meet the legal test for insanity. My day to day work involves talking to defense attorneys and State’s Attorneys on a regular basis. In private practice settings, you can get involved in all types of cases, including medical malpractice both in the field of psychiatry and in the context of proving psychological/psychiatric damages, opining on testamentary capacity for wills, etc.

I definitely love my job. It’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but I have found that attorneys and forensic psychiatrists often have similar temperaments, and you might stand a greater than average chance of enjoying the work.
 
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The reason why chronic back pain is so hard to treat is because the etiology is multifactorial or sometimes unknown. There has been an abundant of research in treating idiopathic chronic lower back pain, and there has not been any single treatment that is promising. You would be praised by everyone if you're able to find an answer through creating a rehab protocol that works even 70% of the time. People would even name this protocol after you. But first, you'd need to learn the differentials of lower back pain.
 
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sloop said:
I think you need to figure out whether medicine is something you really want to do. I don’t think anyone can make that decision but you.

In terms of areas of medicine where you might be able to utilize your legal expertise: if you’re at all interested in psychiatry, you should consider forensic psychiatry. I’m a forensic psychiatrist, and really love the work. I get to review the discovery on all sorts of interesting cases, including murder cases. I get to talk to defendants about their offenses and form an opinion on whether they meet the legal test for insanity. My day to day work involves talking to defense attorneys and State’s Attorneys on a regular basis. In private practice settings, you can get involved in all types of cases, including medical malpractice both in the field of psychiatry and in the context of proving psychological/psychiatric damages, opining on testamentary capacity for wills, etc.

I definitely love my job. It’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but I have found that attorneys and forensic psychiatrists often have similar temperaments, and you might stand a greater than average chance of enjoying the work.
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Sounds really interesting!

We had a forensic pathologist give us a series of lectures in med school and I thought that was interesting. Your side of investigating and interviewing defendants seems equally cool or more so. Congratulations on finding your niche 🙂
 
ACSurgeon said:
Sounds really interesting!

We had a forensic pathologist give us a series of lectures in med school and I thought that was interesting. Your side of investigating and interviewing defendants seems equally cool or more so. Congratulations on finding your niche 🙂
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Thanks. It’s definitely a good job to have when people ask you what you do at cocktail parties, haha. As soon as I tell people, they always want to know more. Something about the work seems to really capture people’s imaginations, which I can obviously understand since I also find it very interesting.
 

PM & R is generally an easier residency to match for, so at the very least it would be easier to get the training slot you want. I have friends who work in that field and are quite happy doing it. One is in private solo practice and he seems to have a lot of flexibility with his time and able to hire staff and make a good living. He focuses on pain management aspect.

Ultimately you have to listen to your heart to figure out what works for you.
 
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You are EXACTLY were you are supposed to be. Trust that. I know it is hard, the first year especially. There are so many moments where you doubt if this is what you should do, or if you are good enough. But listen, you were CHOSEN to be a doctor for a reason. You CAN do this. And you WILL get through it. No doctor has EVER told me that "medical school was the best years of my life." But look, IT ENDS. This is especially hard in the online learning environment and all the changes due to COVID.

My advice is that it'll be worth it. Just hold on.

 

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Have you consider some med mal work, either plaintiff or defense. I think it is a respectable career. As an expert witness, I've seen some very bad physicians hurt patients. There are also some physicians who do a very good and bad things happen. Both sides need knowledgable representation. Being an attorney who knows something about medicine can be a valuable asset no matter which side of the case you take.
 
Too bad you already got into med school... Honestly, this is exactly what PTs do and everything you will learn in PT school. But PTs definitely don't make enough money.
 
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I recommend finding a pathway in law that will make you happy and stick with that. Make the best of what you have. If you’ve already burned out in Med school, I promise you won’t be any happier if you continue. Med school is a game, applying for residency is a game, and residency is a game. It’s grueling and exhausting and nothing is guaranteed, especially happiness.

As Ben Franklin said, happiness depends more on the inward disposition of the mind than on outward circumstances.

Good luck.
 
If it’s any consolation, the Dean of the medical school I went to had his JD as well as his medical degree. There’s always ways to use your degree outside of medicine alone.
 
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