LCSW or LPC? (NJ)

[EnergizerBunny0]

I am having a really difficult time choosing between a MSW and a MS in Mental Health Counseling. Both majors are offered at the local university I am considering. Truth be told, the coursework in counseling looks more interesting to me than the coursework in social work. However, I need to think long term and wish to choose the degree that would garner the most job prospects, the better pay, job security, insurance reimbursement, etc. Currently, I am most interested in counseling/psychotherapy so I could really do that with either degree. While doing my research, I have been told that the MSW is the more respected and versatile of the two - is this still true? In NJ, the requirements for the MS in Mental Health Counseling are identical to the requirements for the MSW - 60 credits, 1000 hours of internships, etc. (It seems academically they are neck and neck, but out in the "real world" there may be a preference for the MSW still.) My question to you all - if a LCSW and a LPC were up for the same job in mental health, would the LCSW have the upper hand? Also, is the LPC too limiting? Thanks for everyone's help!

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[thepsychgeek]

I can't speak for other places, but in Maine, an LCSW will be chosen over an LPC with similar experience, simply because the LCSW is better known here. Whether or not that's reasonable, I don't know.

 

[EnergizerBunny0]

I can't speak for other places, but in Maine, an LCSW will be chosen over an LPC with similar experience, simply because the LCSW is better known here. Whether or not that's reasonable, I don't know.

Thank you Psychgeek for your persective. I think it definitely is a reasonable observation, as I have heard the same from others in various states. I think I am leaning more toward the MSW. I might also add a couple of mental health counseling courses to my MSW just to get a more in-depth view of therapy/counseling techniques. (The MSW at my school does offer a clinical track so that will help immensely.)

 

[WannaBeDrMe]

Same in my state, LCSW is the preferred masters level degree even over a masters in psychology because of the feature for independent practice.

Still, there's a lot to be said for interesting coursework. Is another university an option for you? There are some clinical MSW programs that might better suit your needs than a generalist program (if that's what caused you to be uninterested in the coursework)...

Good luck!

 

[PizzaButt]

You can practice independently with a master's in community counseling--you can get licensed, which is available in 49 states.

 

[WannaBeDrMe]

You can practice independently with a master's in community counseling--you can get licensed, which is available in 49 states.

Still, depending on the state, the actual license you'd get for that degree would vary, right?

Our LPC licenses are open to more than just individuals with counseling degrees. Also, for the original poster, one benefit to the LPC is that (at least here) they count your internship toward your 2000 hour requirement making it only 1250 hrs total and some of your grad supervision too!

Compared with my supervision period (msw/lcsw) which was 3000 hrs post grad.

 

[PizzaButt]

Still, depending on the state, the actual license you'd get for that degree would vary, right?

I'm confused about your question. If you graduate with a master's in community counseling, the license you would get would be an LPC. There are no other licenses you can get with a master's in community counseling other than the LPC. I guess some states have the LCPC but that I believe is a higher tier than the LPC and requires more supervision hours.

And one can practice independently once you get the LPC.

 

[WannaBeDrMe]

I'm confused about your question. If you graduate with a master's in community counseling, the license you would get would be an LPC. There are no other licenses you can get with a master's in community counseling other than the LPC. I guess some states have the LCPC but that I believe is a higher tier than the LPC and requires more supervision hours.

And one can practice independently once you get the LPC.

In our state, if they have a certain core curriculum, they can also be LMFT's with going through the MFT specialist program. LPC is more of our catch-all for art therapists, counselors outside of voc rehab/academics, and pastoral based providers. So there are a lot of degrees.

Sorry, I was just sort of asking the question if other states were that way too... I just didn't phrase it very well! My independent practice thing was mainly just a comparison between psychology and social work. I just don't really have a comparison between LCSW and LPC in my state because the experiences are so varied.

My only hard LPC knowledge is that the post-grad hours are less than half of what are required for LCSW's. They only require around 1200 in this state b/c they allow to count for internship so it saves people some $$$ in supervision I suppose.

 

[Rapunzel]

I need to go where you live. Here, we have to have 1000 hours as part of the master's degree (40% direct services). Then we aren't allowed to practice while waiting for two weeks after graduation to become certified (CPCI). Then it's 4000 more hours to LPC. But it is a newer degree here, and they are putting the LPC profession and graduate programs through the wringer right now to prove ourselves.

I had a hard time with finding internship sites, partly because local community counseling centers have established internship programs with MSW programs, and although they said they would consider me, they just automatically brought in MSW candidates like they always do. My university program insists that the LPC profession simply has not quite "arrived" yet in this state, and that it is becoming more established. There are still states that don't have LPCs at all.

Trends come and go. The APA used to recognize master's level psychologists. Some of the great theorists didn't even have degrees (Erik Erikson never even earned a bachelor's degree). But there was also a time when psychologists only did research, not therapy. Carl Rogers, as a psychologist, was accused of practicing medicine without a license. Psychologists became recognized as clinicians at least partially based on the fact that social workers were already doing therapy, working under medical doctors. Times change, don't they?

 

[WannaBeDrMe]

I need to go where you live. Here, we have to have 1000 hours as part of the master's degree (40% direct services). Then we aren't allowed to practice while waiting for two weeks after graduation to become certified (CPCI). Then it's 4000 more hours to LPC. But it is a newer degree here, and they are putting the LPC profession and graduate programs through the wringer right now to prove ourselves.

I had a hard time with finding internship sites, partly because local community counseling centers have established internship programs with MSW programs, and although they said they would consider me, they just automatically brought in MSW candidates like they always do. My university program insists that the LPC profession simply has not quite "arrived" yet in this state, and that it is becoming more established. There are still states that don't have LPCs at all.

Trends come and go. The APA used to recognize master's level psychologists. Some of the great theorists didn't even have degrees (Erik Erikson never even earned a bachelor's degree). But there was also a time when psychologists only did research, not therapy. Carl Rogers, as a psychologist, was accused of practicing medicine without a license. Psychologists became recognized as clinicians at least partially based on the fact that social workers were already doing therapy, working under medical doctors. Times change, don't they?

Wow, that is a lot of hours! Honestly, I think that all mental health therapists should have the same requirements... even us out a little bit. I wouldn't mind doing more if others also did more.

I'm in NC and my counseling friends are as unsatisfied as the rest of us, on the whole, because our mental health system is in crisis. That has little to do with the licensure process... but it's out there and it sucks.

Our grad hours varied but I know I had over 1400 but can't remember how many counted toward my degree or what the program minimum was when I went through it... CSWE (council for social work education) requires minimum 900 hours during grad and I don't know if they put a % of direct services. I know my program explained to use that they wanted us to have a ration of 3 hrs face time for every 1 hour of agency time and we needed to be able to back that up... but I went to a clinically focused program, so I have no idea how that would work in other schools.

Post degree, I only had to have 3000 hours... the wait from graduation to provisional license was only the month it took the school to took to post my degree but I was working in the same position I would have had anyway. Almost all of our master's level clinicians end up working as case managers... although the state model is transitioning away from that so there are more clinically emphasized positions opening for new grads now than when I finished.

I'm so sorry that you are having a tough time. We have a lot of that here in this state... you hear people (even on this site) keep exclaiming that mental health hasn't even hit it's stride, that it's going to be stable and awesome... but I just don't see it. People can't even afford basic health care like denistry, mammograms, or Tylenol... let alone psychotherapy.

That's just one cynic's opinion... though...

I hope you find something fulfilling soon. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!

 

[Rapunzel]

Well, i have a part-time job now as a therapy intern. It this rate I might be able to graduate in about 10 more weeks. Still looking for another job. We can't count case managing here. I applied for some case manager jobs that would have paid a lot more but they wouldn't have counted for my hours, and I didn't even get interviewed because of that.

 

[WannaBeDrMe]

Well, i have a part-time job now as a therapy intern. It this rate I might be able to graduate in about 10 more weeks. Still looking for another job. We can't count case managing here. I applied for some case manager jobs that would have paid a lot more but they wouldn't have counted for my hours, and I didn't even get interviewed because of that.

We are going through that now here, thank goodness. When I first left school, the ONLY positions that were available to us were case management positions in a very broken system.

I think case management is a great way to better understand how everything works... but it was impossible to get our clinical hours without working 80 hr weeks. I was so burnt out and miserable by this last year that I did it... ugh.

I truly hope you are able to find something soon. this market is a mess in some places. Good luck.

 

[Rapunzel]

Thanks! It is so frustrating because I'm not getting considered for jobs that an unlicensed person with a bachelor's degree could do, and those wouldn't give me what I need to finish my degree and get my license, because basically the state won't count anything other than face to face therapy at this point. But I can't get licensed jobs because I'm not licensed. When I apply for therapy jobs, they say to come back after I graduate. But I'm so close that nobody else wants to hire me because obviously I'm not going to stop looking for an opportunity nto do therapy and get licensed.

I'm staying comfortably active seeing a couple of clients through volunteer internship placements that aren't goint to give me any more clients because I'll leave when I get something more permanent, plus a couple of clients and some groups at my part-time job where I work for $10/hour for pretty much the face to face time only - paperwork is on my own time. But it is a step up from volunteer. I lost the job that I had been at for two years last month too. The one that I ended up not being able to count hours from (I only counted hours from there for a few weeks). I was trying to hold on to it until I found a therapy job. They always knew that was my goal. I didn't have the time or energy to look for more work while I was working there, and was severely burned out. Probably wouldn't have found my new job if I had stayed there.

I would be happy living this way until I have my hours done, but I can't afford it. My class graduated last month (I had to extend because one of my internship sites was related work often done by MSWs and LPCs but not necessarily, so I have to make up those hours), and I'm already getting student loan bills. In fact, I thought they said I wouldn't have to pay until I graduate, but I just got a nasty note wanting a late payment for last month too, and it hasn't even been a month yet since my class graduated.

 

[WannaBeDrMe]

Thanks! It is so frustrating because I'm not getting considered for jobs that an unlicensed person with a bachelor's degree could do, and those wouldn't give me what I need to finish my degree and get my license, because basically the state won't count anything other than face to face therapy at this point. But I can't get licensed jobs because I'm not licensed. When I apply for therapy jobs, they say to come back after I graduate. But I'm so close that nobody else wants to hire me because obviously I'm not going to stop looking for an opportunity nto do therapy and get licensed.

I'm staying comfortably active seeing a couple of clients through volunteer internship placements that aren't goint to give me any more clients because I'll leave when I get something more permanent, plus a couple of clients and some groups at my part-time job where I work for $10/hour for pretty much the face to face time only - paperwork is on my own time. But it is a step up from volunteer. I lost the job that I had been at for two years last month too. The one that I ended up not being able to count hours from (I only counted hours from there for a few weeks). I was trying to hold on to it until I found a therapy job. They always knew that was my goal. I didn't have the time or energy to look for more work while I was working there, and was severely burned out. Probably wouldn't have found my new job if I had stayed there.

I would be happy living this way until I have my hours done, but I can't afford it. My class graduated last month (I had to extend because one of my internship sites was related work often done by MSWs and LPCs but not necessarily, so I have to make up those hours), and I'm already getting student loan bills. In fact, I thought they said I wouldn't have to pay until I graduate, but I just got a nasty note wanting a late payment for last month too, and it hasn't even been a month yet since my class graduated.

I'm keeping yuo in my thoughts... what a mess.

re: the student loans, if it's a private company, I have no idea but I know that the Federal loans, all you have to do is send them a statement from the school of continued enrollment and you should be fine... I hope that helps...

I really am just so sorry for all you are going through in your state. They tried to do the SAME to us a few years ago. They were saying that they were no longer going to allow provisionals to bill and they were only going to cut the types of jobs that counted for placements. That would have made it impossible to get our licenses in any way but volunteer setting or some clinic who would let us see their sliding fee people... but those are so few and far between.

My fingers are crossed for you that something comes through soon.. I know all about the financial issues. I'm having some of those right now myself... mental health isn't for the wanna-be wealthy for sure.

 

[Rapunzel]

Thanks. That's exactly what they did. As an intern, I'm not reimbursible, so I'm slave labor up for grabs.

 

[MettaKaruna]

Hello friends,

I am sorry to hear that you are going through such difficulties getting your careers going.

I want to live and practice in Virginia, and am trying to decide between LPC and LCSW. Do you know if it is this difficult to get a career started in Virginia? Does LPC or LCSW have an advantage over the other in Virginia?

Thanks and best of luck 🙂