Learning from others' mistakes (Resident perspective of residency shortage)

[GSRaw]

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[OBI603]

Out of curiosity, what professions exactly would those be?

 

[CapCrunch]

Weren't there not enough residency spots, period? If there were more applicants than available slots, wouldn't it not have mattered how hard you studied? If everybody received a 4.0 and had stellar recommendations there would still be unmatched graduates. 😕

 

[DrMarx]

Weren't there not enough residency spots, period? If there were more applicants than available slots, wouldn't it not have mattered how hard you studied? If everybody received a 4.0 and had stellar recommendations there would still be unmatched graduates. 😕

The point is that that doesn't happen, therefore make yourself stand out. However, I'm pretty sure this is common knowledge, and nobody is going to look at themselves critically and say "I'm too stupid to be a doctor." What these students should be doing is working harder, studying harder, and developing skills when needed. It's never too late, if you believe that it is your only helping the competition anyways.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

Weren't there not enough residency spots, period? If there were more applicants than available slots, wouldn't it not have mattered how hard you studied? If everybody received a 4.0 and had stellar recommendations there would still be unmatched graduates. 😕

Maybe. If you were a podiatrist right now, and you had the opportunity to open a residency before July, would you? You realize these 104 people are people that have gotten passed over by multiple programs. Would you want to open a new residency with the knowledge your first residents were... not the greatest? You would go into your first year with the knowledge your residency would be classified from the beginning as a residency for rejects. I imagine that would be a tough title to shed. Do you think the brightest students would apply to your program next year knowing that the rest of your residents were rejects? I doubt it.

Alternatively, you might be more convinced to start a program if you knew your first class would be socially competent and intellectually brilliant.

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[hotdawg]

that is low.

students are always being held accountable. there is not a student unmatched who is not banging this heads on that mirror hard.

labeling them as rejects...great solution. maybe send an email to those students so that they what, drop out? kts? really?

lets be frank. as it stand now a program is required to take an applicant who passed the boards. it doesnt state a GPA requirement or passing on the first try.

so make one. dont have a february offering. raise the gpa to 3.0 or better. students in thier third year will drop out altogether.

but the problem is spots and untrained DPMs. thats the big picture which mars the profession. these grads are not going to simply "go away." create a pathway for them.

not all residencies are created equal and not all precious residents had those stats. lets be fair.

i dont see blame on these forums i hear excuses. and no solutions. but calling umatched students rejects? not acceptable. these students are qualified. unless the designation changes as i said previously the fact remains: a lack of spots.

next.

 

[hotdawg]

apology for the errors in the post above-

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

that is low.

students are always being held accountable. there is not a student unmatched who is not banging this heads on that mirror hard.

labeling them as rejects...great solution. maybe send an email to those students so that they what, drop out? kts? really?

lets be frank. as it stand now a program is required to take an applicant who passed the boards. it doesnt state a GPA requirement or passing on the first try.

so make one. dont have a february offering. raise the gpa to 3.0 or better. students in thier third year will drop out altogether.

but the problem is spots and untrained DPMs. thats the big picture which mars the profession. these grads are not going to simply "go away." create a pathway for them.

not all residencies are created equal and not all precious residents had those stats. lets be fair.

i dont see blame on these forums i hear excuses. and no solutions. but calling umatched students rejects? not acceptable. these students are qualified. unless the designation changes as i said previously the fact remains: a lack of spots.

next.

I mean, by definition, they are... I don't know how you don't see that.

I was merely pointing out that there isn't a huge incentive for a pod to open a new residency in the next few months other than the motivation of "being nice."

Opening a residency is a huge commitment and time consumer and they probably need now motivation than being nice...

I'm not suggesting that these unmatched students don't "deserve" a residency, but rather pointing out that a lot of practicing podiatrists might be hesitant to open a new program with the knowledge if who their residents will be...

Are they qualified? Sure. Are they the best? Unlikely.

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[hotdawg]

as a pre pod your opinions -matter very little.

if you choose to go pod, your views will change. hopefully for your future colleagues and the patients you are privilaged to treat.

good luck.

 

[AttackNME]

I'm sure part of the problem also is pushing for all residencies to be 3 years plus surgery. Not all of my classmates want to do rearfoot/ankle/trauma. It might be a good thing to be able to explain to other health professionals that "all podiatrists are now required to complete 3 years of surgical residency training", but in the long run, it might be healthier for our profession to split the course of training. My advice for prospective students is that they should know that our profession is clearly in a state of change. Shadow an old school one and a new school one. Many hospitals still have to check which podiatrists do surgery and which ones don't. If your goal is to perform good ol fashion podiatry, then realize you'll likely be pushed to study harder than you want to because you'll be in the same class competing against bright doctors.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

as a pre pod your opinions -matter very little.

if you choose to go pod, your views will change. hopefully for your future colleagues and the patients you are privilaged to treat.

good luck.

What...??? Do you win lots of arguments like that?! Lol

You posted this in the pre-pod section, so you should expect pre-pod opinions...

I'm not saying no residencies SHOULD get created, just that human nature might dictate here and very few will, because there are no personal incentives....

I don't know why you are disagreeing with me as a person. I'm only suggesting what I anticipate to happen, not what I think should happen.

Perhaps you should reread my post....

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[Cascade11]

Ok so the first year will be the "rejects", qualified rejects. Rejects that would not be in this position had there not been so little spots. Then the next year the stigma of rejects will go away because everyone is applying. I can't call these people rejects because was this a normal round they would have gotten somewhere, a true number of rejects would be MUCH less.

 

[PatchAdamsFan]

Maybe. If you were a podiatrist right now, and you had the opportunity to open a residency before July, would you? You realize these 104 people are people that have gotten passed over by multiple programs. Would you want to open a new residency with the knowledge your first residents were... not the greatest? You would go into your first year with the knowledge your residency would be classified from the beginning as a residency for rejects. I imagine that would be a tough title to shed. Do you think the brightest students would apply to your program next year knowing that the rest of your residents were rejects? I doubt it.

Alternatively, you might be more convinced to start a program if you knew your first class would be socially competent and intellectually brilliant.

It has been reiterated many times on these forums that the students from the class of 2013 that did not match come from a variety of academic backgrounds. Some barely scraped by, yet many others were quite decent and even excelled, yet luck was not on their side. I feel it is illogical to consider every non-matched, qualified applicant as 'not the greatest'. Problems with externs rankings or connections are a huge aspect, or likewise some students lucked out matching a rank with the director, while others fell short one or two places. This just touches on possible problems, and above all, with a residency shortage, this was inevitable and bound to happen.

 

[Zalligan]

You guys are reading too far into this. All Max is saying is that the people who went unmatched were passed over by other programs for SOME REASON. I garauntee nobody went interviewless during the match process. Nobody knows why they may have been passed over, other than their interviewers. It's easy to assume that they were not the greatest applicants, and sadly, that's probably the case for several of them.

Now if you're a residency director, do you really want to open a new residency knowing that your first class will be nothing but people who were passed over by multiple other programs? Regardless of how qualified or what these students stats are, they weren't selected. Residency "success" is often judged by prestige of applicants and word of mouth. Taking individuals who weren't good enough (for whatever reason) in your newly established residency wouldn't exactly be starting off on the right foot. And that's why the only incentive is "being nice."

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

Ok so the first year will be the "rejects", qualified rejects. Rejects that would not be in this position had there not been so little spots. Then the next year the stigma of rejects will go away because everyone is applying. I can't call these people rejects because was this a normal round they would have gotten somewhere, a true number of rejects would be MUCH less.

It has been reiterated many times on these forums that the students from the class of 2013 that did not match come from a variety of academic backgrounds. Some barely scraped by, yet many others were quite decent and even excelled, yet luck was not on their side. I feel it is illogical to consider every non-matched, qualified applicant as 'not the greatest'. Problems with externs rankings or connections are a huge aspect, or likewise some students lucked out matching a rank with the director, while others fell short one or two places. This just touches on possible problems, and above all, with a residency shortage, this was inevitable and bound to happen.

I think you guys are getting caught up in the term "rejects." The students that didn't get a residency are BY DEFINITION rejects. I know that sounds harsh and inconsiderate of me, but that's the word I chose, because it is by definition, accurate. They were NOT selected for a residency, and are therefore the rejects. And that's how I imagine many podiatrists will view it as well. Did they qualify for a residency? Yes! Should they have gotten a residency? Probably most of them! But even so, they were rejected. That's the cold hard truth. It doesn't matter there was a shortage. They were still rejected. Did any of you apply for a school/program that you didn't get into even though you "met the minimum qualifications"? You were rejected. That's why it's called a "rejection letter." Was there a "shortage" of spots at Columbia Medical this year because there were 100x more apps than spots? Is that relevant to the fact that those who didn't get in were rejects? You need to look behind your emotions and feelings for these people and look at reason. They were rejected.

PAF, you find it illogical "to consider every non-matched, qualified applicant as 'not the greatest.' " You might be right! I don't think I ever suggested that all of the applicants were not intelligent. I am willing to bet that 99% of the top 10% from each school matched though. That means the best and brightest WERE snatched up. Were there mediocre and average students that didn't match? Of course! But personally, if i started a residency, I would want to know that I at LEAST had the opportunity to grab a couple top 10% students. The students that were not selected for residency were MOST LIKELY (maybe there are a handful) of the brightest 2013 graduates. Many of the applicants were reapplicants from previous years.

I think you might be fighting an emotional battle whereas I am positing a logical one. No one would start a residency right now with the goal to train the best and brightest 2013 graduates. That's all.

 

[Zalligan]

Residency success has absolutely nothing to do with the prestige of the applicants. It has everything to do with the quality of attendings teaching. No quality attendings at your program? Then you program is most likely not very good. Doesn't matter if every resident has a 4.0 gpa coming in. The training defines the residency.

Newer programs are more likely going to take applicants who were passed over because they need to get their programs off and running. Establishing the podiatry service within the hospital and community.

In that case, I retract my previous statement. You are far more "in the know" than I.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

Residency success has absolutely nothing to do with the prestige of the applicants. It has everything to do with the quality of attendings teaching. No quality attendings at your program? Then you program is most likely not very good. Doesn't matter if every resident has a 4.0 gpa coming in. The training defines the residency.

Newer programs are more likely going to take applicants who were passed over because they need to get their programs off and running. Establishing the podiatry service within the hospital and community.

Do you think a well-known/excellent podiatrist would start a program at a well known medical center, and then take mediocre residents? You don't think that pod MIGHT be worried about their reputation in that medical community?

If you were at a well known teaching hospital that had the best attendings and best residents, and then you have a bunch of mediocre podiatry students (as if they don't already have to prove themselves in a new residency program in a hospital...) working there... do you REALLY think a good pod would do that?

I find it dubious at best...

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

The stigma of a new program is that the program is an enigma. Applicants don't know the politics of the hospital (Ortho vs DPM), there is no "track record" in terms of numbers...there are a lot of questions that can't be answered. Most quality applicants will be hesitant to apply and subject themselves to a brand new program. A director can NOT wait forever to pick the best applicants because their choices may be limited or there may be no outstanding applicants to choose from.

Yet you need to start the program sooner than later. It's very common for new programs to take residents blindly for the sake of getting the ball rolling. With the exception of 1 or 2 current new programs, the majority of brand new programs will take re-applicants or applicants that are in the scramble if that is what it comes down to.

Don't get me wrong, I really hope you're right, and I'm wrong. I suppose at this point, we should be hoping for any residency period, and not necessarily some godsend residency that might balk at mediocre applicants.

 

[Adam Smasher]

ttt

 

[rushrhees]

Re:

Re: mediocre applicants/rejects

In previous years, all the qualified applicants would place into residency and there might be a few leftovers who were simply not suited to work as physicians. Those kinds of people will pop up each year, but this year, because of the severity of the shortage, people are scrambling for all sorts of reasons. Some of us were unlucky and had programs close. Some of us had major life events happen while in school (family emergencies, health problems, etc) and our GPAs suffered. Some of us didn't play well at the political game which has become an increasingly important part of the match process. Some of us flat out overreached.

The reason I bring this up is that the directors of these new programs are smart and they know there are a lot of quality applicants still out there. So it doesn't bother me one iota if anyone want to call us "rejects" or "mediocre." I'm a good sport, so hell, you can call me "idiot" if that's what will give you a chuckle. Sooner or later, you'll be calling me Doctor.

This aspect is alive and kicking with no signs of ever letting up. Never underestimate the power of good connections.
My overall thought, there are several that had no business entering POD school, somehow made it through but no PD viewed them as worth taking on as a resident. Other than good Karma from the APMA, AACPM etc and the nice warm feeling that one gets by giving back to the profession, there is not a whole lot of upside to taking on a resident and a lot of downside risk taking on these people. With that said there is no sane PD that will ever take on someone whom they do not feel is capable or ready yet for a residency.
About the people who failed to match. First off I would truly love to see their stats, CV and meet them. There is probably something missing in one of those three, but I I obviously will never meet them nor know their back ground. I will say though over the interviews I have met a few students and interviewees that have questionable interpersonal skills. It is POD school, anyone can get in to at least one of the nine. There are bound to be a few that make it to the end even if they are still lacking.
As for the others that did the right things, got good marks and have a strong CV that still did not get matched (which I do not see there are many of these 100+ unmatched) that is a part of life. You might do all the right things, and somehow things just do not work out. Yes it sucks and is not right, but trust me it happens.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

.. So it doesn't bother me one iota if anyone want to call us "rejects" or "mediocre." I'm a good sport, so hell, you can call me "idiot" if that's what will give you a chuckle. Sooner or later, you'll be calling me Doctor.

Okay, you'll be a doctor in a month or so.... But that doesn't matter if you can't practice....


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[Telekinesis]

Okay, you'll be a doctor in a month or so.... But that doesn't matter if you can't practice....


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Low blow max

 

[rushrhees]

Getting a bit back on track, @Adamsmasher. It is unfortunate that you did not match this year and I hope you will land a residency in the next round. If you do not mind me asking is if you had to look at your application package from the perspective of a program director what would you say was the area of your application that might have not been as strong or you thing could be improved upon. I would love to just know more about the 100+ that did not match.
Keep your chin up and bolster that CV a bit, wish you the best of luck next match season.

 

[Zalligan]

Getting a bit back on track, @Adamsmasher. It is unfortunate that you did not match this year and I hope you will land a residency in the next round. If you do not mind me asking is if you had to look at your application package from the perspective of a program director what would you say was the area of your application that might have not been as strong or you thing could be improved upon. I would love to just know more about the 100+ that did not match.
Keep your chin up and bolster that CV a bit, wish you the best of luck next match season.

IIRC he's one of the people who was all but given a residency in Atlanta, but didn't want to move, so he's not one of the people who straight up had no shot at a residency. I won't speak for him though.

 

[MaxillofacialMN]

Low blow max

I wasn't trying to be mean, but when AS presents his case as if I'm the bad one for suggesting the mediocre or poor students were the ones most likely without residency, I'm going to call it like it is from a reasonable, logically based argument. When he starts playing the harp on our heartstrings and makes me out as the bad guy, I'm going to pull the smoke and mirrors away and show you reality.

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[rushrhees]

IIRC he's one of the people who was all but given a residency in Atlanta, but didn't want to move, so he's not one of the people who straight up had no shot at a residency. I won't speak for him though.

Wow I hope for his sake that is not true. I hate Atlanta for a number of reason but to possibly derail all what you worked for to avoid a city would not be the wisest.

It is one of my biggest fears of getting into this that I might have to do residency in a second tier or worse city or have to set up shop in a rural area, but it is a risk willing to take on.

 

[air bud]

I know of a few people from a few schools who did not go to Atlanta and other programs for a variety of reasons, some being more ridiculous than others. They had the opportunity to interview there and passed on it. Crazy but it happens. Inexplicably, it happens.