Leaving my BS/MD program

cydron47

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Hey guys, hope all is well--

I just finished my freshman year at a state medical school's BS/MD program on the east coast. The program basically "guarantees" your admission to my state's medical school, given a 3.6 GPA and a 511 MCAT. I was very apprehensive about doing this program because of the requirements, but I was quite depressed my senior year and my parents pushed me to do this for "safety" reasons. I would say I had a pretty awful experience there, and do not really want to go back next year. It's a commuter school, and I don't know what it is, but I've been struggling with sexuality issues, physician parents putting pressure on me to do medicine (which I've never been sure about), and just still feeling like a kid (I've always been very sheltered/agreeable). I am very negative towards myself and I don't see any of this changing by the time medical school comes--I feel like I'll still be in this depressed mood. I applied to my state flagship to transfer, and need to decide by the end of this week whether I'll transfer or not. It seems like a really nice school to go to. I've been struggling with this question for literally months, and have kind of become depressed--COVID hasn't helped. Plus my dad is basically blackmailing me into staying here... everything seems so emotionally inflexible. It's like, some of my friends here at home tell me to go, do what you want to do! and then my parents (and myself) are like, well realistically you're not going to get in anywhere! Makes me hate my life, I'm so fixated on this.

I guess I'll do a pros and cons list (of transferring out) so maybe I can make it clearer so that you guys can help me make a decision.

Pros:
fresh start - this seems really important to me, returning to that school sounds awful
non-commuter school experience
push me out of depression - have to fend for myself
I want to have a more risky life, I feel deeply dissatisfied with myself, I'm so boring
Not 100% sure about medicine, so maybe I will be forced to explore other things
better school overall

Cons:
would be harder to get into medical school, worried this might be a red flag, at the mentioned state medical school esp.
would have to go through the application process (which a bunch of people are going through anyway)
I could make some changes (switching out of engineering) that could make me feel happier

I seem dead set on transferring but also have this inner hesitancy since it seems "irrational" but I don't know if I can take it emotionally going back there. I made a few "friends" but I've cut off contact with them, I just feel so "fake" and denigrated and like I'm putting on an act. I don't know if I'm ready to have a highly structured life for the next 7 years when I'm this unhappy. Add residency onto that, and I feel like my life will be a disaster and I wish I'd have my parents to blame over myself... I would like to say I'm sure about not doing medicine but I'm afraid my agreeable personality makes it a good choice for me. I'm also considering dentistry as "my ticket out" as well as CS. I think being a teacher sounds nice as well.

Thanks guys -- sorry it's a bit of an essay but I hope that you wouldn't mind helping me make a decision! I need to decide by this Friday >.>

TL;DR Would hate to go back to my BS/MD program, but I'm scared of what will happen, need help deciding! I've had replies from "definitely stay" to "definitely go" so idrk what to do!
 
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KnightDoc

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Hey guys, hope all is well--

I just finished my freshman year at my state medical school's BS/MD program. The program basically "guarantees" your admission to my state's medical school, given a 3.6 GPA and a 511 MCAT. I was very apprehensive about doing this program because of the requirements, but I was quite depressed my senior year and my parents pushed me to do this for "safety" reasons. I would say I had a pretty awful experience there, and do not really want to go back next year. It's a commuter school, and I don't know what it is, but I've been struggling with sexuality issues, physician parents putting pressure on me to do medicine (which I've never been sure about), and just still feeling like a kid (I've always been very sheltered/agreeable). I am very negative towards myself and I don't see any of this changing by the time medical school comes--I feel like I'll still be in this depressed mood. I applied to UW-Madison to transfer, and need to decide by the end of this week whether I'll transfer or not. It seems like a really nice school to go to. I've been struggling with this question for literally months, and have kind of become depressed--COVID hasn't helped. Plus my dad is basically blackmailing me into staying here... everything seems so emotionally inflexible. It's like, some of my friends here at home tell me to go, do what you want to do! and then my parents (and myself) are like, well realistically you're not going to get in anywhere! Makes me hate my life, I'm so fixated on this.

I guess I'll do a pros and cons list (of transferring out) so maybe I can make it clearer so that you guys can help me make a decision.

Pros:
fresh start - this seems really important to me, returning to that school sounds awful
non-commuter school experience
push me out of depression - have to fend for myself
I want to have a more risky life, I feel deeply dissatisfied with myself, I'm so boring
Not 100% sure about medicine, so maybe I will be forced to explore other things
better school overall

Cons:
would be harder to get into medical school, worried this might be a red flag, at the mentioned state medical school esp.
would have to go through the application process (which a bunch of people are going through anyway)
I could make some changes (switching out of engineering) that could make me feel happier

I seem dead set on transferring but also have this inner hesitancy since it seems "irrational" but I don't know if I can take it emotionally going back there. I made a few "friends" but I've cut off contact with them, I just feel so "fake" and denigrated and like I'm putting on an act. I don't know if I'm ready to have a highly structured life for the next 7 years when I'm this unhappy. Add residency onto that, and I feel like my life will be a disaster and I wish I'd have my parents to blame over myself... I would like to say I'm sure about not doing medicine but I'm afraid my agreeable personality makes it a good choice for me. I'm also considering dentistry as "my ticket out" as well as CS. I think being a teacher sounds nice as well.

Thanks guys -- sorry it's a bit of an essay but I hope that you wouldn't mind helping me make a decision! I need to decide by this Friday >.>

TL;DR Would hate to go back to my BS/MD program, but I'm scared of what will happen, need help deciding! I've had replies from "definitely stay" to "definitely go" so idrk what to do!
Wow! We don't know you, or your parents, or your relationship with and dependency on them, so we are really not qualified to give you advice on what to do. Everything you are feeling is very understandable and normal, and I'm not going to try to sway you one way or the other.

I will, however, point out one glaring inconsistency in your post -- you say you hate it, felt pressured to go, and are not sure you even want med school, and then list as a "con" that transferring might be a red flag, especially at your state med school, and would make admission more difficult. You really need to figure this out before you make a decision.

Yes, withdrawing from a guaranteed A with a 3.6/511 will make whatever you do in applying later on more difficult (i.e., many people with better stats will not receive As in whatever cycle you apply). And yes, withdrawing from your program will probably make it very difficult if not impossible to be admitted to your state school.

This is irrelevant if you don't want to go to med school, but is everything if you do. Figure this out first, and which path you should take will reveal itself. Good luck!!!
 
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M&L

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listen.... what i am about to tell you is my opinion alone, and maybe a lot of people would disagree with it, but i will share it anyway.
You are probably 19? (finished freshman year, so i am assuming). I could i truly believe that 19 is not the time to make huge commitments that will decide the rest of your career. Be responsible with your grades? yes! be careful to not mess up potential options? yes. I am so glad that in the US medical school is a masters degree. It gives you a chance to discover yourself, challenge yourself, and come to YOUR OWN conclusion about what you want to do with your life. Your parents might be right, but it is besides the point. YOU need to decide what you what to do. YOU need to learn how to be independent and make your own decisions. this is part of growing up.
When i was finishing high school, my parents pushed me to study chinese professionally... i hated my life. I finished the first year, and realized there is no way i can keep going like this. told my parents, they were furious... I had to leave home, i rented a room in an apartment of an alcoholic, working full time and studying at night, but i got into a school i wanted, and pursued the major i wanted. 2 months later, when my parents saw how happy i was, they realized that this is better for me. Since than i made decisions myself, and this is the best experience you can have.

If i were you, i would transfer, work hard, and DECIDE FOR YOURSELF if you want to be a doctor or not. What if instead you decide to do something else? than do it and never look back. The world needs more talented artists, accountants, physicists, teachers, - whatever it is you decide to do. If you still want to do medicine, - you will. and then you can write a great assay about how you chose route, and you are a stronger person for it.


also: YOU PARENTS WILL NEVER RESPECT YOU AS AN ADULT UNTILL YOU RESPECT YOURSELF AS AN ADULT.
 
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Hopeful101

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If you still want to do medicine, stay. If you dont, walk. Also know that a 511 is a difficult score to get. Don't assume that that's within reach unless they allow you to be within standard error of the 511 with out actually getting it.
 
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cydron47

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listen.... what i am about to tell you is my opinion alone, and maybe a lot of people would disagree with it, but i will share it anyway.
You are probably 19? (finished freshman year, so i am assuming). I could i truly believe that 19 is not the time to make huge commitments that will decide the rest of your career. Be responsible with your grades? yes! be careful to not mess up potential options? yes. I am so glad that in the US medical school is a masters degree. It gives you a chance to discover yourself, challenge yourself, and come to YOUR OWN conclusion about what you want to do with your life. Your parents might be right, but it is besides the point. YOU need to decide what you what to do. YOU need to learn how to be independent and make your own decisions. this is part of growing up.
When i was finishing high school, my parents pushed me to study chinese professionally... i hated my life. I finished the first year, and realized there is no way i can keep going like this. told my parents, they were furious... I had to leave home, i rented a room in an apartment of an alcoholic, working full time and studying at night, but i got into a school i wanted, and pursued the major i wanted. 2 months later, when my parents saw how happy i was, they realized that this is better for me. Since than i made decisions myself, and this is the best experience you can have.

If i were you, i would transfer, work hard, and DECIDE FOR YOURSELF if you want to be a doctor or not. What if instead you decide to do something else? than do it and never look back. The world needs more talented artists, accountants, physicists, teachers, - whatever it is you decide to do. If you still want to do medicine, - you will. and then you can write a great assay about how you chose route, and you are a stronger person for it.


also: YOU PARENTS WILL NEVER RESPECT YOU AS AN ADULT UNTILL YOU RESPECT YOURSELF AS AN ADULT.

That’s funny... I’d love to study chinese lol! this is the thing... my parents are telling me that if I’m not sure, I should stay, because I will figure it out later...I totally agree with what you’re saying but I’m scared I won’t be able to get into medical school.
 

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Hey mannn (or WOMAN?), I cannot compare my upbringing to yours but wanted to share some of my own life experiences in the hopes that maybe you won't feel so alone. When I was around your age I started to feel a lot of the same emotions you expressed in your post. So much so, that I decided to join the Army back when you could still get kicked out for being gay in order to hide from what I was truly facing. The pressure to succeed, get married, have children, and be successful was all so much that I chose to become apart of the problem instead of facing it as my authentic self. I specifically remember my father asking me, "why are you throwing away your entire future to go die in some illegal war!?" He couldn't understand why I didn't want to attend college or save money by staying at home. The truth is, no one can answer the question you are proposing in your post. The most important part is that you choose your future for yourself, it doesn't matter if it is the right or wrong choice, the only thing that matters is that it is YOUR choice.

Medical school will always be there when you are ready. While it is true that if you don't let anyone in you won't ever be hurt... you also won't ever be happy. My greatest advice would be to find an environment where you can explore who you truly are and what you want to become.
 
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TigerKing123

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I do think it’s be a great idea to get some counseling just to gather your own thoughts a bit and figure out what the best move for you would be! There’s even online counseling services that you can take advantage of from your home which I’ve found particularly helpful.

I read somewhere that growth is not a glamorous nor linear process. This has gotten me through A LOT! I was someone who had been conditioned her whole life to become a Doctor and thought that’s what I wanted as well. At your age I was turning away from medicine too, but for me it was more due to my personal life and poor grades which lead me to do some soul searching and exploring of different career paths. In the end, I ultimately came back to medicine and will be starting in the Fall but it feels much better when you choose something knowing it’s what YOU want! Sure if you drop out and then later decide medicine is for you it will be harder to justify why you want to become a doctor, but it won’t be impossible and the growth and maturity that needed to happen for you will be taken into account as well. HOWEVER, I do think that taking the time to step away if necessary to figure out who you are as a person, what you want, and in general gain some life experience is something that will be priceless in the long run no matter what career you end up in!

Whatever happens, make sure to take care of your mental health! A lot easier said than done, but it is a priority so that you can ultimately make the best decision for you!
 
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EdgeTrimmer

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It appears you are really don't like your UG experience and only thing that's keeping you there is parental pressure and medical school guarantee. Given in your strong dislike for the school, do you think you will be motivated enough to achieve 3.6 GPA and 511 MCAT? Explain to your parents that you are not confident that are you not confident of achieving those two but you will work hard at another school and decide on medical school when you are ready. One thing for sure is withdrawing from BSMD won't be a red flag for medical school admissions including the school you are.

As a parent it pains me to see your parents are putting you under so much pressure. GL to you. BTW, given the information you shared lot of people can figure out your school and may be your name also. Maybe you should edit and remove some information.
 
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cydron47

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It appears you are really don't like your UG experience and only thing that's keeping you there is parental pressure and medical school guarantee. Given in your strong dislike for the school, do you think you will be motivated enough to achieve 3.6 GPA and 511 MCAT? Explain to your parents that you are not confident that are you not confident of achieving those two but you will work hard at another school and decide on medical school when you are ready. One thing for sure is withdrawing from BSMD won't be a red flag for medical school admissions including the school you are.

As a parent it pains me to see your parents are putting you under so much pressure. GL to you. BTW, given the information you shared lot of people can figure out your school and may be your name also. Maybe you should edit and remove some information.

Thanks for your response. that’s a good point regarding the motivation and disliking my UG. Though my brother/parents keep telling me it’s not my school, it’s me, I’m just being lazy/undisciplined etc. I see the logic in that I guess—what would you say to that? Is “I’m unhappy”/unmotivated enough of an argument?

also why don’t you think it would be a red flag? I’m pretty worried that adcoms will see it and think I’m “flaky” or, worse, maybe it shows I’m too emotionally unstable to succeed in the profession if I do decide on it...

edit: I got rid of some info, hopefully I haven’t been doxxed by now...
 
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cydron47

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I do think it’s be a great idea to get some counseling just to gather your own thoughts a bit and figure out what the best move for you would be! There’s even online counseling services that you can take advantage of from your home which I’ve found particularly helpful.

I read somewhere that growth is not a glamorous nor linear process. This has gotten me through A LOT! I was someone who had been conditioned her whole life to become a Doctor and thought that’s what I wanted as well. At your age I was turning away from medicine too, but for me it was more due to my personal life and poor grades which lead me to do some soul searching and exploring of different career paths. In the end, I ultimately came back to medicine and will be starting in the Fall but it feels much better when you choose something knowing it’s what YOU want! Sure if you drop out and then later decide medicine is for you it will be harder to justify why you want to become a doctor, but it won’t be impossible and the growth and maturity that needed to happen for you will be taken into account as well. HOWEVER, I do think that taking the time to step away if necessary to figure out who you are as a person, what you want, and in general gain some life experience is something that will be priceless in the long run no matter what career you end up in!

Whatever happens, make sure to take care of your mental health! A lot easier said than done, but it is a priority so that you can ultimately make the best decision for you!

Congrats on getting in! I guess I’m just wondering, how did you “pivot” from medicine? Did you talk about this in your application?
 

cydron47

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Moving doesn’t “push you out of depression”. Speak with a health professional
I’d love to, this COVID thing is an issue and the time frame is a bit tight by the deadline unfortunately. I know I have to deal with issues myself but you don’t think a different UG experience/lack of guarantee will push me to action/independence? I wish I could be like some other people in my life and check all the boxes, but I’m not sure what I’m missing to make me feel so unhappy...
 

EdgeTrimmer

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Thanks for your response. that’s a good point regarding the motivation and disliking my UG. Though my brother/parents keep telling me it’s not my school, it’s me, I’m just being lazy/undisciplined etc. I see the logic in that I guess—what would you say to that? Is “I’m unhappy”/unmotivated enough of an argument?

also why don’t you think it would be a red flag? I’m pretty worried that adcoms will see it and think I’m “flaky” or, worse, maybe it shows I’m too emotionally unstable to succeed in the profession if I do decide on it...

edit: I got rid of some info, hopefully I haven’t been doxxed by now...
I don't know exactly why you are unhappy with your UG school and the reasons you have are justified or not, but for whatever reasons if you strongly feel that you have no motivation to continue then use that logic and see what your dad says. Maybe you should come up with a good plan for your transfer school and work hard to convince them. If you think you are depressed take medical help immediately and resolve that first.

As per BSMD, you are still in UG part of a BSMD program and no medical school will know or ask about it and no need for you to mention. I believe the program you are in is a 4+4 program so you are not disadvantaged if you decide to leave that.
 
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I’d love to, this COVID thing is an issue and the time frame is a bit tight by the deadline unfortunately. I know I have to deal with issues myself but you don’t think a different UG experience/lack of guarantee will push me to action/independence? I wish I could be like some other people in my life and check all the boxes, but I’m not sure what I’m missing to make me feel so unhappy...
I gave my advice
 

KnightDoc

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I don't know exactly why you are unhappy with your UG school and the reasons you have are justified or not, but for whatever reasons if you strongly feel that you have no motivation to continue then use that logic and see what your dad says. Maybe you should come up with a good plan for your transfer school and work hard to convince them. If you think you are depressed take medical help immediately and resolve that first.

As per BSMD, you are still in UG part of a BSMD program and no medical school will know or ask about it and no need for you to mention. I believe the program you are in is a 4+4 program so you are not disadvantaged if you decide to leave that.
Where are you getting this advice from, the UMKC thread?

While OP certainly will not be a reapplicant anywhere, since he has not yet been accepted to med school, the school attached to his BS/MD program knows he is enrolled, and will know if he withdraws.

Similar to how someone who turns down an A is blackballed in future cycles, it is highly unlikely that someone who withdraws from a BS/MD program will be accepted at that specific school when applying later. Yes, other schools won't know, but why on earth would you think the specific school would not hold the withdrawal against the applicant, given how competitive admissions are, and how the applicant already walked away from a guarantee, not just to apply out, but to leave the program????

I agree OP will not be disadvantaged at other schools, but I think he'll be pretty much DOA at his current school after squandering a guarantee that could have gone to someone who desperately wanted it. OP needs to be comfortable with the idea that he will likely never have the opportunity to attend that particular med school before deciding whether or not to leave the program.
 
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TigerKing123

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Congrats on getting in! I guess I’m just wondering, how did you “pivot” from medicine? Did you talk about this in your application?
Thank you! Maybe turning away was poor word choice on my part. Medicine/ wanting to go to medical school was just no longer a focus. I was in a mentally very dark place at the time and though I didn’t realize it I needed to dial back the various pressures I was putting on myself to simply enjoy my own life a little more. So I ended up transferring schools, switching from a heavily science major to one that was less so but still pretty interesting to me which seemed to help a lot. Once I transferred my focus was graduating with my degree and exploring activities that I sincerely enjoyed. Only thing I wish I had done different is given more thought to post graduation than I initially did. There was a solid 5 months post graduation where I frantically was applying to jobs, realizing that mentally I was always circling back to wanting to be a Physician and figuring out a plan to get there. So that can be easily remedied by some introspection sophomore/junior years. Also I did talk about this in my application! It was honestly my central theme because though it wasn’t an ideal path to medical school it was one I really needed to take to become the well rounded and committed applicant I was!

Also, if you’d like to talk even more detail about what I did feel free to PM me!
 

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Where are you getting this advice from, the UMKC thread?

While OP certainly will not be a reapplicant anywhere, since he has not yet been accepted to med school, the school attached to his BS/MD program knows he is enrolled, and will know if he withdraws.

Similar to how someone who turns down an A is blackballed in future cycles, it is highly unlikely that someone who withdraws from a BS/MD program will be accepted at that specific school when applying later. Yes, other schools won't know, but why on earth would you think the specific school would not hold the withdrawal against the applicant, given how competitive admissions are, and how the applicant already walked away from a guarantee, not just to apply out, but to leave the program????

I agree OP will not be disadvantaged at other schools, but I think he'll be pretty much DOA at his current school after squandering a guarantee that could have gone to someone who desperately wanted it. OP needs to be comfortable with the idea that he will likely never have the opportunity to attend that particular med school before deciding whether or not to leave the program.
We had this discussion before :) I don't think a medical school (especially a state school) will decline to interview candidate who withdrew early from a BSMD program and came back as a traditional applicant with a strong application. I even doubt that same people administer admissions for both BSMD and traditional paths. Don't ask me again if my kid is applying to same medical schools which he rejected during BSMD cycle :)
 
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KnightDoc

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We had this discussion before :) I don't think a medical school (especially a state school) will decline to interview candidate who withdrew early from a BSMD program and came back as a traditional applicant with a strong application. I even doubt that same people administer admissions for both BSMD and traditional paths. Don't ask me again if my kid is applying to same medical schools which he rejected during BSMD cycle :)
Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. :) Given how involved you've been with this process on that other site, I would have thought you'd know better. And, for what it's worth, no, this has absolutely nothing to do with applying for BS/MD program, turning it down to go regular route, and then applying four years later. You are 1,000% correct about that. Your kid did not take a guaranteed seat away from anyone else. Big difference!!!

This is joining the program, taking the seat, and then withdrawing. Trust me, if not the Dean, certainly the director of admissions is very well aware of the identities of the UGs who have guaranteed seats, and they are very well aware of who is not progressing in the program, who is doing well, and who is dropping out. The person who takes a guaranteed seat and then relinquishes it (again, not to apply out, although that might be treated similarly, but actually quits the program) will be no more welcome in the future than someone who turns down an A regular way and then reapplies.

Won't matter how strong the application is. Seller's market. Won't matter to other schools (who won't know about it anyway), but it's hard to see how it would be forgiven at the BS/MD school, given what the objectives of the programs are, when the result is that the school lost the ability to enroll another high stat HS student because some kid took the spot and then quit the program. Lots of strong applications every cycle. Hard to see how a single school would give anyone the opportunity to turn them down twice in one lifetime.
 
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EdgeTrimmer

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Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. :) Given how involved you've been with this process on that other site, I would have thought you'd know better. And, for what it's worth, no, this has absolutely nothing to do with applying for BS/MD program, turning it down to go regular route, and then applying four years later. You are 1,000% correct about that. Your kid did not take a guaranteed seat away from anyone else. Big difference!!!

This is joining the program, taking the seat, and then withdrawing. Trust me, if not the Dean, certainly the director of admissions is very well aware of the identities of the UGs who have guaranteed seats, and they are very well aware of who is not progressing in the program, who is doing well, and who is dropping out. The person who takes a guaranteed seat and then relinquishes it (again, not to apply out, although that might be treated similarly, but actually quits the program) will be no more welcome in the future than someone who turns down an A regular way and then reapplies.

Won't matter how strong the application is. Seller's market. Won't matter to other schools (who won't know about it anyway), but it's hard to see how it would be forgiven at the BS/MD school, given what the objectives of the programs are, when the result is that the school lost the ability to enroll another high stat HS student because some kid took the spot and then quit the program. Lots of strong applications every cycle. Hard to see how a single school would give anyone the opportunity to turn them down twice in one lifetime.
My argument is I don't believe they shut the door purely based on the fact OP withdrew during UG especially a public school. May be OP can write a killer essay about how they escaped from shackles of helicopter parents by transferring out, discovered themselves and came back as stronger candidate than the candidates who cruised thru UG part of BSMD programs with merely checking the boxes required?
 

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I have a completely different suggestion: how about taking a "gap year" in your education, without withdrawing completely from your program? Get a job (maybe research at your university, or something medical, like scribing), get some counseling, find a place to live, and spend time figuring out what you really want. Then, you will be able to go back to school (or transfer) with more insight and more enthusiasm. School will be a lot more enjoyable, and you will be more successful, if you are comfortable with who you are and know what you want.
 
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EdgeTrimmer

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I have a completely different suggestion: how about taking a "gap year" in your education, without withdrawing completely from your program? Get a job (maybe research at your university, or something medical, like scribing), get some counseling, find a place to live, and spend time figuring out what you really want. Then, you will be able to go back to school (or transfer) with more insight and more enthusiasm. School will be a lot more enjoyable, and you will be more successful, if you are comfortable with who you are and know what you want.
Hard to convince ORM parents about gap year(s)!
 
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My argument is I don't believe they shut the door purely based on the fact OP withdrew during UG especially a public school. May be OP can write a killer essay about how they escaped from shackles of helicopter parents by transferring out, discovered themselves and came back as stronger candidate than the candidates who cruised thru UG part of BSMD programs with merely checking the boxes required?
If you think so. I think they have enough highly qualified candidates that they don't need to be swayed by killer essays from candidates that have burned them once before. In fact, honestly, I have never even heard of this before.

It's a difficult enough decision for someone who doesn't quit a program to decide to give up a guarantee to take their shot, and I'm pretty sure their success rate at their home school is pretty damn low, since they chose to apply out knowing it means giving up the guarantee. (Why would a school accept you, no matter how "killer" your essay is, once you tell them they are not your first, second, third, etc. choice? Who does that? I'd bet a lot of people applying out don't even bother applying to the school whose guarantee they gave up in order to apply out in the first place!)

The only people I know who get away with this are people who are in programs at schools that allow them to apply out while keeping the guarantee. At the other schools, if you are good enough to apply out and give up the guarantee, you are basically telling the school you think you are too good to go there, and, believe me, they act accordingly.

Now, layer on that the fact that you actually quit the program. Every single person I know (admittedly, not that many, but, still, more than a few!) who quit a BS/MD program did so because they no longer wanted to be an MD. I have never heard of a single person doing this, then later deciding they not only want to go to med school, but they want to go to the school whose program they quit, and then actually being accepted by that school. How is it any different from applying, being accepted, turning it down, and then reapplying later after you escaped from whatever shackles caused you to turn them down in the first place? Why would any school that is not hurting for applicants (ALL OF THEM!!!) care about this and give you another shot after you screwed someone out of a seat in a guaranteed program at their institution?
 
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HopeP

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Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. :) Given how involved you've been with this process on that other site, I would have thought you'd know better. And, for what it's worth, no, this has absolutely nothing to do with applying for BS/MD program, turning it down to go regular route, and then applying four years later. You are 1,000% correct about that. Your kid did not take a guaranteed seat away from anyone else. Big difference!!!

This is joining the program, taking the seat, and then withdrawing. Trust me, if not the Dean, certainly the director of admissions is very well aware of the identities of the UGs who have guaranteed seats, and they are very well aware of who is not progressing in the program, who is doing well, and who is dropping out. The person who takes a guaranteed seat and then relinquishes it (again, not to apply out, although that might be treated similarly, but actually quits the program) will be no more welcome in the future than someone who turns down an A regular way and then reapplies.

Won't matter how strong the application is. Seller's market. Won't matter to other schools (who won't know about it anyway), but it's hard to see how it would be forgiven at the BS/MD school, given what the objectives of the programs are, when the result is that the school lost the ability to enroll another high stat HS student because some kid took the spot and then quit the program. Lots of strong applications every cycle. Hard to see how a single school would give anyone the opportunity to turn them down twice in one lifetime.

First of all BS/MD in question is not an automatic A, rather a conditional A subject to GPA and MCAT minimums. SOM is not loosing any seats nor OP is leaving because of SOM quality or have any reservations for that program, rather to find own pursuit of happiness, which won't be held against OP, should OP decide to come back and apply in future as traditional candidate ! Any education/career without happiness is a disaster. If a SOM holds that BS/MD withdrawal against you, why you want to join a SOM who disapproves your pursuit to happiness?
 
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cydron47

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Now, layer on that the fact that you actually quit the program. Every single person I know (admittedly, not that many, but, still, more than a few!) who quit a BS/MD program did so because they no longer wanted to be an MD.

That's the thing... I'm worried that I don't actually want to be an MD, but I'm just "going along with it", I'm so dang indecisive, and am not sure why. All I know is that leaving feels better than staying. I want to ignore this feeling, but I feel like maybe I'm unhappy because I've ignored it too much.
 
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candbgirl

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You really need to get help with your depression before you make any big decisions. You are so mixed up at this point that you really need to talk it out with a professional. Transferring is not going to solve your unhappiness. It probably won’t push you “to action/independence”. Why would you even think it would? Please get some help. Everything else can wait.
 
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KnightDoc

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First of all BS/MD in question is not an automatic A, rather a conditional A subject to GPA and MCAT minimums. SOM is not loosing any seats nor OP is leaving because of SOM quality or have any reservations for that program, rather to find own pursuit of happiness, which won't be held against OP, should OP decide to come back and apply in future as traditional candidate ! Any education/career without happiness is a disaster. If a SOM holds that BS/MD withdrawal against you, why you want to join a SOM who disapproves someone pursuit to happiness?
Agreed about not needing to go to the particular SOM, but you are misunderstanding my point.

Seats in a BS/MD program are very competitive, and very limited. That seat is gone forever when you take one and then quit. Schools use those seats to attract high stat HS students, who then become typically full pay matriculants in their SOM.

You waste their time and deny them the opportunity to fill the seat with someone who has already figured out that their pursuit of happiness includes guaranteed admission to their SOM, drop out of the program because your happiness cake was only half baked when you started the program, and then come back later and expect to get another shot to turn them down, you are probably expecting too much.

A person who is not happy in a program should absolutely consult with whoever they respect and make whatever decision is right for them. I'm just saying once that is done, one should assume that whatever happiness road they are traveling on is not going to be passing through that particular SOM.
 
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cydron47

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You really need to get help with your depression before you make any big decisions. You are so mixed up at this point that you really need to talk it out with a professional. Transferring is not going to solve your unhappiness. It probably won’t push you “to action/independence”. Why would you even think it would? Please get some help. Everything else can wait.

I suppose, I guess then I'd be stuck here for the next 3 years though. Maybe even 7 (with all that lost money) if I don't figure it out in time.
 

cydron47

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I have a completely different suggestion: how about taking a "gap year" in your education, without withdrawing completely from your program? Get a job (maybe research at your university, or something medical, like scribing), get some counseling, find a place to live, and spend time figuring out what you really want. Then, you will be able to go back to school (or transfer) with more insight and more enthusiasm. School will be a lot more enjoyable, and you will be more successful, if you are comfortable with who you are and know what you want.

This seems like a pretty good idea. Not sure what place would accept my transfer after that gap year though, lol...
 

KnightDoc

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That's the thing... I'm worried that I don't actually want to be an MD, but I'm just "going along with it", I'm so dang indecisive, and am not sure why. All I know is that leaving feels better than staying. I want to ignore this feeling, but I feel like maybe I'm unhappy because I've ignored my feelings too much.
Yes, yes, I know. Please go back and read my first response to you. I would never be so presumptuous as to try to tell you what to do. Whether to go to war with your parents. Whether to move out and be on your own. You really have to figure that out for yourself, based on all of the interpersonal dynamics in your life that we cannot possibly know about.

If you don't want to be an MD, you are wasting everyone's time in the program, and you'll end up being miserable and unsuccessful. People from BS/MD programs leave med school at much higher rates than any other category of matriculant, typically because they made the commitment when they were too young and immature to understand what it entailed. (I'll look up the stats and edit this post when I find them.)

On the other hand, if you do drop out of the program and later decide you still want to be a doctor, that will be very possible. But it will be more difficult because you won't have a guarantee, and you can probably forget about attending the school attached to your program.

Don't ignore your feelings because, at the end of the day, it is your life. But, you do have to manage your relationships at the same time. Good luck. Maybe when I come back with the statistics you could show them to your parents and it will make a difference.

Edit: Attrition rates for 2004-05 through 2013-14: MD Only - 3.1% (1.3% academic/1.8% academic), BS/MD 5.2% (2.9%/2.3%), MD/MBA 0.3% (0.3%/0.0%), MD/MPH 1.4% (0.3%/1.1%), MD/PhD 3.1% (0.8%/2.3%), and MD/other 2.2% (0.7%/1.5%). Bottom line, the BS/MD med school attrition rate is by far the highest. If you don't want to do it, make sure your parents understand that 5 out of every 100 BS/MD students who enter med school do not graduate; this is almost double the rate for MD only.
 
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EdgeTrimmer

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Agreed about not needing to go to the particulat SOM, but you are misunderstanding my point.

Seats in a BS/MD program are very competitive, and very limited. That seat is gone forever when you take one and then quit. Schools use those seats to attract high stat HS students, who then become typically full pay matriculants in their SOM.

You waste their time and deny them the opportunity to fill the seat with someone who has already figured out that their pursuit of happiness includes guaranteed admission to their SOM, drop out of the program because your happiness cake was only half baked when you started the program, and then come back later and expect to get another shot to turn them down, you are probably expecting too much.

A person who is not happy in a program should absolutely consult with whoever they respect and make whatever decision is right for them. I'm just saying once that is done, one should assume that whatever happiness road they are traveling on is not going to be passing through that particular SOM.
I think you overselling the point that BSMD programs will be devastated if they have occasional dropout. Lot of programs have varying number of students each year (into BSMD), some get more than they expected (higher yield) and some get less (schools like Pitt only offer to 10 students with no WL) and they adjust their traditional path intake based on number of BSMD matriculating into SOM that year.

Anyway, given that OP is not sure about medicine and extreme unhappiness about UG school, it's better for them to take sometime off, get some counseling and decide whether to go back to same school or transfer to another school and decide their career path later.
 
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The wise one

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If I may, How old are you?
That's the thing... I'm worried that I don't actually want to be an MD, but I'm just "going along with it", I'm so dang indecisive, and am not sure why. All I know is that leaving feels better than staying. I want to ignore this feeling, but I feel like maybe I'm unhappy because I've ignored it too much.
 

HopeP

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Seats in a BS/MD program are very competitive, and very limited. That seat is gone forever when you take one and then quit. Schools use those seats to attract high stat HS students, who then become typically full pay matriculants in their SOM.
It is a misleading. On paper it seems BS/MD seat can't be filled in 2nd year, but they can easily by accepting one more BS/MD candidate next cycle.
Also BS/MD has 2 components, BS and MD. They may admit one more BS candidate next cycle and during suppose to be MD admission cycle of withdrew candidate, SOM will admit one more traditional candidate. Potential loss to SOM is that additional candidate may not be as stellar as they thought high school BS/MD candidate would be.

You waste their time and deny them the opportunity to fill the seat with someone who has already figured out that their pursuit of happiness includes guaranteed admission to their SOM, drop out of the program because your happiness cake was only half baked when you started the program, and then come back later and expect to get another shot to turn them down, you are probably expecting too much.

It is not a waste of time and deny SOM an opportunity, rather fill the seat with a more mature/happier candidate then was, that will be a win-win situation for SOM and candidate.
 
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KnightDoc

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I think you overselling the point that BSMD programs will be devastated if they have occasional dropout. Lot of programs have varying number of students each year (into BSMD), some get more than they expected (higher yield) and some get less (schools like Pitt only offer to 10 students with no WL) and they adjust their traditional path intake based on number of BSMD matriculating into SOM that year.

Anyway, given that OP is not sure about medicine and extreme unhappiness about UG school, it's better for them to take sometime off, get some counseling and decide whether to go back to same school or transfer to another school and decide their career path later.
Not devastated at all. They plan for it and know that it happens.

You are overselling the point that a school would be devastated if a particular applicant who writes killer essays doesn't matriculate at their school. Schools all have thousands of applicants for hundreds of interview spots and scores of seats. If you want to believe they would waste a spot on someone who was fortunate enough to be admitted to their BS/MD program and then quit it to go find themselves, be my guest, but that same argument would apply to anyone who turned down an A and later reapplied, and I don't hear you making that argument. :)
 
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candbgirl

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I suppose, I guess then I'd be stuck here for the next 3 years though. Maybe even 7 (with all that lost money) if I don't figure it out in time.

Your response has nothing to do with my reply. But that tells me you are trying to avoid getting help and finding out why you are in this situation. Ultimately it is your decision so good luck to you as you try to move forward.


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candbgirl

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I am totally fine with deciding later. Just don't want to be arsed when it comes to MD admissions later on...

You just can’t worry about that. If you decide later you want to be a doctor you apply like everyone else. It’s always sort of a crap shoot, only around 40 percent of all applicants each cycle even receive an acceptance. But that’s a chance you take if you leave your current program.


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cydron47

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Your response has nothing to do with my reply. But that tells me you are trying to avoid getting help and finding out why you are in this situation. Ultimately it is your decision so good luck to you as you try to move forward.

It does -- if I wait and "get help" (whatever that means!) then I'm jeopardizing where I can transfer my junior year AKA another institution. I guess I made this thread just because I wanted to make sure that making this decision wouldn't be awful, that it would be fine, even if I decide later!
 

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Hey guys, hope all is well--

I just finished my freshman year at a state medical school's BS/MD program on the east coast. The program basically "guarantees" your admission to my state's medical school, given a 3.6 GPA and a 511 MCAT. I was very apprehensive about doing this program because of the requirements, but I was quite depressed my senior year and my parents pushed me to do this for "safety" reasons. I would say I had a pretty awful experience there, and do not really want to go back next year. It's a commuter school, and I don't know what it is, but I've been struggling with sexuality issues, physician parents putting pressure on me to do medicine (which I've never been sure about), and just still feeling like a kid (I've always been very sheltered/agreeable). I am very negative towards myself and I don't see any of this changing by the time medical school comes--I feel like I'll still be in this depressed mood. I applied to my state flagship to transfer, and need to decide by the end of this week whether I'll transfer or not. It seems like a really nice school to go to. I've been struggling with this question for literally months, and have kind of become depressed--COVID hasn't helped. Plus my dad is basically blackmailing me into staying here... everything seems so emotionally inflexible. It's like, some of my friends here at home tell me to go, do what you want to do! and then my parents (and myself) are like, well realistically you're not going to get in anywhere! Makes me hate my life, I'm so fixated on this.

I guess I'll do a pros and cons list (of transferring out) so maybe I can make it clearer so that you guys can help me make a decision.

Pros:
fresh start - this seems really important to me, returning to that school sounds awful
non-commuter school experience
push me out of depression - have to fend for myself
I want to have a more risky life, I feel deeply dissatisfied with myself, I'm so boring
Not 100% sure about medicine, so maybe I will be forced to explore other things
better school overall

Cons:
would be harder to get into medical school, worried this might be a red flag, at the mentioned state medical school esp.
would have to go through the application process (which a bunch of people are going through anyway)
I could make some changes (switching out of engineering) that could make me feel happier

I seem dead set on transferring but also have this inner hesitancy since it seems "irrational" but I don't know if I can take it emotionally going back there. I made a few "friends" but I've cut off contact with them, I just feel so "fake" and denigrated and like I'm putting on an act. I don't know if I'm ready to have a highly structured life for the next 7 years when I'm this unhappy. Add residency onto that, and I feel like my life will be a disaster and I wish I'd have my parents to blame over myself... I would like to say I'm sure about not doing medicine but I'm afraid my agreeable personality makes it a good choice for me. I'm also considering dentistry as "my ticket out" as well as CS. I think being a teacher sounds nice as well.

Thanks guys -- sorry it's a bit of an essay but I hope that you wouldn't mind helping me make a decision! I need to decide by this Friday >.>

TL;DR Would hate to go back to my BS/MD program, but I'm scared of what will happen, need help deciding! I've had replies from "definitely stay" to "definitely go" so idrk what to do!

How are you doing academically in your program?
 
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HopeP

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OPs own admission, sexuality issues, not sure how that get resolved by transferring out to anywhere else, may be a large population in state flagship will provide that hideout, but that is not a permanent solution. Agree with lots of sentiment on thread, take counseling, gap year to engage in interest activities, without loosing that MD spot provided OP has still little interest to be an MD and story become discovering myself. Based on OP responses to various scenarios, doubt OP is in correct mindset to know what (s)he wants, not OP's fault.
OP, What your UG school support network has to offer for issues you are describing.
 
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KnightDoc

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I am totally fine with deciding later. Just don't want to be arsed when it comes to MD admissions later on...
You will be totally fine, EXCEPT at the one school whose program you are quitting. You can very likely assume you are kissing that one school goodbye. And, of course, as @candbgirl stated, you will be giving up a 100% acceptance rate with a 3.6/511 for a 43% acceptance rate, regardless of how high or low your stats are.
 
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cydron47

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OP, What your UG school support network has to offer for issues you are describing.
Hmm--it's a commuter school, so it's a bit of a hit or miss, most people leave school at 4 and go home. The extracurricular situation is a bit dead, except for pre-med/ethnic clubs. I am not sure what else I could consult on campus, I'm not sure how counseling would help exactly, I'm willing to try but why is our society getting 19-year-olds on Prozac and speaking with mental health professionals...? something feels off, so I figure maybe I should just do what others are doing and get a normally-social college exp.
 

candbgirl

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It does -- if I wait and "get help" (whatever that means!) then I'm jeopardizing where I can transfer my junior year AKA another institution. I guess I made this thread just because I wanted to make sure that making this decision wouldn't be awful, that it would be fine, even if I decide later!

That’s the whole point. You can transfer next semester or next year. You should go see a counselor or psychologist or a psychiatrist. You seem to be ignoring everyone who has suggested you get the help you need. Your issues aren’t going to go away when you land on a big campus. You need coping skills, you need to think through what the end game is or at least where you think it is focused. If a school will take yo now, they will take you after a gap year. You are worrying about and focusing on the wrong things.
 
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cydron47

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That’s the whole point. You can transfer next semester or next year. You should go see a counselor or psychologist or a psychiatrist. You seem to be ignoring everyone who has suggested you get the help you need. Your issues aren’t going to go away when you land on a big campus. You need coping skills, you need to think through what the end game is or at least where you think it is focused. If a school will take yo now, they will take you after a gap year. You are worrying about and focusing on the wrong things.

I hope so! I might try contacting them about delaying enrollment. I don't mean to be ignoring that advice, I'm just not sure how a professional would help at this point, is there that much wrong with me? Like not everyone can commit to doing an American MD (all that money, residency, etc.) let alone at 18!
 

candbgirl

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I hope so! I might try contacting them about delaying enrollment. I don't mean to be ignoring that advice, I'm just not sure how a professional would help at this point, is there that much wrong with me? Like not everyone can commit to doing an American MD (all that money, residency, etc.) let alone at 18! At the same time I don't want to jeopardize myself, so maybe I am like, delusional... not sure where I should "suck it up" for my professional life and where I should follow how I feel.

You really do seem adverse to getting help and nobody said you need Prozac. Many of us have suggested you get help because you need to talk to someone that has no hidden agenda(parents) or no preconceived notions. A professional could help you sort out all of the things that you are concerned about. They can help you get to a better place where you see things clearly and are able to make good decisions for yourself. But until and unless you want the help it won’t help. Good luck and take care of yourself.
 
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EdgeTrimmer

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Not devastated at all. They plan for it and know that it happens.

You are overselling the point that a school would be devastated if a particular applicant who writes killer essays doesn't matriculate at their school. Schools all have thousands of applicants for hundreds of interview spots and scores of seats. If you want to believe they would waste a spot on someone who was fortunate enough to be admitted to their BS/MD program and then quit it to go find themselves, be my guest, but that same argument would apply to anyone who turned down an A and later reapplied, and I don't hear you making that argument. :)
I didn't say a school will be devastated by someone not matriculating. Remember it's a sellers market :) Equating BS/MD candidate dropping out early in UG and applying to same SOM to Reapplying to same SOM after rejecting A previous cycle thru traditional point is silly. We know BSMD is 5% of total MD admissions and dropout rate is very less. Anyway, time to move on to other threads :)
 
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