Leaving psychology.

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psychstudent5

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I'm nearing the end of internship and am thinking of doing so. The incessant re-branding myself year after year is ridiculous. The process of applying to postdocs is financially and energy depleting. With the current trajectory of the field (e.g. deflating wages, hallmarks of psych being usurped by other disciplines, licensing and board hoops, market saturation), has anyone on this board decided to or plans on leaving the field after receiving their degree? Does anyone know of people who left the field after they received their phd? Where did they go? What was their experience like outside of psychology? Are they enjoying themselves? Had I know the troubles of the field before I entered graduate school or even before my 4th year of grad school, I likely would have left.

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I don't personally know anyone who has just left psychology altogether after the degree was conferred. However, I know several people who have transitioned to psychology from other fields (ex. a friend who is now an intern in psychology after leaving the practice of law). Disillusionment and career change is nothing new or abnormal. Psychology offers a variety of skill sets that could be tweeked and taken in different directions (management in corporate america; advocacy work; advertising; etc). Think of what you love about psychology and see where it might be useful.

As a bit of an aside: Is your frustration really all about the process of getting your career started or do you actually not enjoy the work? If the former is true, you might be jumping ship a bit prematurely
 
I don't personally know anyone who has just left psychology altogether after the degree was conferred.

That's kinda odd. I certainly have. I've only known one personally very well, but have heard many stories. I also know a guy who took a job after internship with the Department of the Navy doing some psychometric research on many of their selection tests and procedures, their online education systems and such. Tangentially related of course, but no patient contact and he was never licensed.
 
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I don't personally know anyone who has just left psychology altogether after the degree was conferred. However, I know several people who have transitioned to psychology from other fields (ex. a friend who is now an intern in psychology after leaving the practice of law). Disillusionment and career change is nothing new or abnormal. Psychology offers a variety of skill sets that could be tweeked and taken in different directions (management in corporate america; advocacy work; advertising; etc). Think of what you love about psychology and see where it might be useful.

As a bit of an aside: Is your frustration really all about the process of getting your career started or do you actually not enjoy the work? If the former is true, you might be jumping ship a bit prematurely

i enjoy aspects of psychology, particularly research and some clinical work. However, all the other factors, especially declining wages, are major elements to my frustration with the field. Last time, I checked T-mobile does not take altruism as payment. The extensive training and continued hoops for pittance and little respect is unacceptable for me. In undergrad, I briefly mused about becoming a lawyer. Yet, one night at a bookstore, I read about the law profession - high turnover rate, long work hours, and rarely seeing a court room. I immediately dropped the idea. Working 10,12, or more hours a day is not what I would like to do. Yet, even within psychology, I see the same work structure (excluding VAs). Psychologists consistently working over 8hrs/day, weekends, or juggling multiple jobs (e.g. working at a hospital + teaching + private practice). So piling that on top the present difficulties in our field is not a lifestyle that I want live. I did not come into this field to be defined by it. I simply viewed it as a career tool that allows me flexibility within psychology.
 
I'd venture into the job market and see what kind of jobs you can find.

The "market" isn't good right now, but that doesn't necessarily mean you won't find a job you can be happy in. If you did get some that sweet 9-5 VA gig with guaranteed income and a solid chunk of protected research time, it sounds like you wouldn't be all that inclined to leave. Might as well try and find one first before abandoning ship. That is, unless you are planning on going back to school and starting from square one (in which case I imagine time is a concern). Its easy to be daunted looking forward to an ambiguous future that may or may not involve 80 hour weeks for minimal pay. I imagine it will be a bit different once you have some certainty.

Most folks I know at least stay peripherally involved in the field, though I would consider erg's example to still be well within the field (albeit perhaps more I/O than clinical) so perhaps my standards are different than others. I've said it before, but I think we have a diverse skillset that could be useful in a great many settings. If academia doesn't work out for me, believe me when I say I'll be looking for ways to take advantage of that.
 
i enjoy aspects of psychology, particularly research and some clinical work. However, all the other factors, especially declining wages, are major elements to my frustration with the field. Last time, I checked T-mobile does not take altruism as payment. The extensive training and continued hoops for pittance and little respect is unacceptable for me. In undergrad, I briefly mused about becoming a lawyer. Yet, one night at a bookstore, I read about the law profession - high turnover rate, long work hours, and rarely seeing a court room. I immediately dropped the idea. Working 10,12, or more hours a day is not what I would like to do. Yet, even within psychology, I see the same work structure (excluding VAs). Psychologists consistently working over 8hrs/day, weekends, or juggling multiple jobs (e.g. working at a hospital + teaching + private practice). So piling that on top the present difficulties in our field is not a lifestyle that I want live. I did not come into this field to be defined by it. I simply viewed it as a career tool that allows me flexibility within psychology.

I hear you in all this. I was a strong undergrad student, very dedicated, and did all the right things. However, I was still shocked coming into grad school that there were people who viewed it as their "life" and everything they did revolved around furthering their career and getting "published" (in journals that nobody I care about actually reads:cool:) They wanted to change the world with their dissertation and didnt mind staying in grad school for 8 years to "build up their CV" (are you ppl freakin nuts?!). They like having 3.5 different jobs, 10 projects going at once, and working 12 hour per day.

Um yea, not for me...:laugh:
 
erg, are you referring to me? Haha.

Edit: Just the "build CV, publishing opportunities, and multiple projects at once" part, not the 12 hr work day and nothing in grad school but work parts, that is. :)
 
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I hear you in all this. I was a strong undergrad student, very dedicated, and did all the right things. However, I was still shocked coming into grad school that there were people who viewed it as their "life" and everything they did revolved around furthering their career and getting "published" (in journals that nobody I care about actually reads:cool:) They wanted to change the world with their dissertation and didnt mind staying in grad school for 8 years to "build up their CV" (are you ppl freakin nuts?!). They like having 3.5 different jobs, 10 projects going at once, and working 12 hour per day.

Um yea, not for me...:laugh:

Thanks for this reply. Sometimes I feel really alone thinking and feeling this way.
 
I'd venture into the job market and see what kind of jobs you can find.

The "market" isn't good right now, but that doesn't necessarily mean you won't find a job you can be happy in. If you did get some that sweet 9-5 VA gig with guaranteed income and a solid chunk of protected research time, it sounds like you wouldn't be all that inclined to leave. Might as well try and find one first before abandoning ship. That is, unless you are planning on going back to school and starting from square one (in which case I imagine time is a concern). Its easy to be daunted looking forward to an ambiguous future that may or may not involve 80 hour weeks for minimal pay. I imagine it will be a bit different once you have some certainty.

I am having an internal debate along these lines. Maybe if I find something, things will settle within me. I'm not quite sure, but I hear you. I have also thought about going into health policy, but those jobs seem to want people with a degree or extensive research in that field, which puts me at a disadvantage.
 
That's kinda odd. I certainly have. I've only known one personally very well, but have heard many stories. I also know a guy who took a job after internship with the Department of the Navy doing some psychometric research on many of their selection tests and procedures, their online education systems and such. Tangentially related of course, but no patient contact and he was never licensed.

erg923, can you speak more to the experiences you heard about?
 
i enjoy aspects of psychology, particularly research and some clinical work. However, all the other factors, especially declining wages, are major elements to my frustration with the field. Last time, I checked T-mobile does not take altruism as payment. The extensive training and continued hoops for pittance and little respect is unacceptable for me. In undergrad, I briefly mused about becoming a lawyer. Yet, one night at a bookstore, I read about the law profession - high turnover rate, long work hours, and rarely seeing a court room. I immediately dropped the idea. Working 10,12, or more hours a day is not what I would like to do. Yet, even within psychology, I see the same work structure (excluding VAs). Psychologists consistently working over 8hrs/day, weekends, or juggling multiple jobs (e.g. working at a hospital + teaching + private practice). So piling that on top the present difficulties in our field is not a lifestyle that I want live. I did not come into this field to be defined by it. I simply viewed it as a career tool that allows me flexibility within psychology.

Not to be a downer,but the idea that psychologists are paid well in the V.A. system is highly subjective. I am currently a staff psychologist at a V.A.in a city of 1,000,000 people. 2 years after employment, I am now a GS-13 (around $80,000) and it will take me over 10 years to hit six figures. This is only good money if you are single with no kids. This is not much money when you consider the years we are out of the workforce, if you have a family (better hope your spouse never loses his/her job), etc. Social workers and LPCs make almost as much as a psychologist (within 10,000 $), so, if you want to work for the V.A., get your LCSW, not your PhD.

Clinical psychology is a dead field-- end of story. If I had to do it over again, I would have quit at the bachelor's level (my b.s. was in chemical engineering). However, I figured any field this competitive HAD to be a great career.I guess I was fooled by social proof, huh.

I willl never forget having to incesstantly study for the EPPP, pay the OUTRAGEOUSLY high fees for study materials,licensing fees, etc. all while making $57, 000 at the V.A. (and I was one of the lucky ones because many of my friends were in post-docs making $30K...

This is the only field that has all the hassles of medical school without any of the rewards.
 
I have thought about this a lot over the years, yet something keeps me in the field.

What worries me, is after putting all this time and energy into psychology, is what I would do if I left. What 'other' skills do I have? I knew folks in my cohort in grad school who had backgrounds in education, business, etc who had other things that they could fall back on. I think if people have backup plans, all the power to them. However, I think I'll wait things out and do the best I can do in the field, as frustrating as it is sometimes.
 
That's kinda odd. I certainly have. I've only known one personally very well, but have heard many stories. I also know a guy who took a job after internship with the Department of the Navy doing some psychometric research on many of their selection tests and procedures, their online education systems and such. Tangentially related of course, but no patient contact and he was never licensed.

I have known people who left early in grad school and I have known people who have decided to leave the workforce or cut down to half-time/private practice after having kids. I just don't personally know anyone who left psychology for a different field after internship.

Not to be a downer,but the idea that psychologists are paid well in the V.A. system is highly subjective. I am currently a staff psychologist at a V.A.in a city of 1,000,000 people. 2 years after employment, I am now a GS-13 (around $80,000) and it will take me over 10 years to hit six figures. This is only good money if you are single with no kids. This is not much money when you consider the years we are out of the workforce, if you have a family (better hope your spouse never loses his/her job), etc. Social workers and LPCs make almost as much as a psychologist (within 10,000 $), so, if you want to work for the V.A., get your LCSW, not your PhD.

Clinical psychology is a dead field-- end of story. If I had to do it over again, I would have quit at the bachelor's level (my b.s. was in chemical engineering). However, I figured any field this competitive HAD to be a great career.I guess I was fooled by social proof, huh.

I willl never forget having to incesstantly study for the EPPP, pay the OUTRAGEOUSLY high fees for study materials,licensing fees, etc. all while making $57, 000 at the V.A. (and I was one of the lucky ones because many of my friends were in post-docs making $30K...

This is the only field that has all the hassles of medical school without any of the rewards.

I don't think you are being a downer at all. I agree with your comments. In general the input to output ratio for psychology is not great. My perspective is a bit skewed in that I did not encounter quite as many hassles as I could have. I was accepted right out of UG, have manageable debt, specialized in an area that is actually hiring, matched first time around to a place I actually wanted to go, and have been able to stay put for postdoc. If bumps had been encountered at any of those stages, I would be singing a more pessimistic tune. I am also currently in a VA (fixed hours) with oddly high locality pay and that has been protected from many of the economic woes in other parts of the country. Again, if I were in a different scenario, I would be less cheery. Finally, not to sound sexist, I would probably feel less positively about psychology if I were a man. I have no kids yet, but imagine that my spouse will earn more than me. Again, not trying to be sexist, but that is just the odds. I've tended to date other professionals given the social circles I run in and my current boyfriend makes a good living. Therefore, the long-term economics may not be as big a factor for me. I feel relatively lucky, but all things considered, the clinical psychology route is not easy nor lucrative.
 
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I have thought about this a lot over the years, yet something keeps me in the field.

What worries me, is after putting all this time and energy into psychology, is what I would do if I left. What 'other' skills do I have? I knew folks in my cohort in grad school who had backgrounds in education, business, etc who had other things that they could fall back on. I think if people have backup plans, all the power to them. However, I think I'll wait things out and do the best I can do in the field, as frustrating as it is sometimes.

You can still develop new skills after graduation. Less than two years after licensure, I am finishing my post-doctoral masters in psychopharmacology and will be a prescribing psychologist. Not only will I be able to help the underserved have access to mental health care but will also be earning a much higher hourly wage.

After receiving my PhD, I thought about various post-docs, but, IMO, they are a waste of time (similar to ABPP boarding of non-forensic psychologists), because they do not allow you to bill anymore than someone wo a post-doc. The psychopharm master's is the only directly financially beneficial post-doc out there
 
i enjoy aspects of psychology, particularly research and some clinical work. However, all the other factors, especially declining wages, are major elements to my frustration with the field. Last time, I checked T-mobile does not take altruism as payment. The extensive training and continued hoops for pittance and little respect is unacceptable for me. In undergrad, I briefly mused about becoming a lawyer. Yet, one night at a bookstore, I read about the law profession - high turnover rate, long work hours, and rarely seeing a court room. I immediately dropped the idea. Working 10,12, or more hours a day is not what I would like to do. Yet, even within psychology, I see the same work structure (excluding VAs). Psychologists consistently working over 8hrs/day, weekends, or juggling multiple jobs (e.g. working at a hospital + teaching + private practice). So piling that on top the present difficulties in our field is not a lifestyle that I want live. I did not come into this field to be defined by it. I simply viewed it as a career tool that allows me flexibility within psychology.

While I can relate to your angst, I think you feel entitled to a certain quality of life, job stability, low turn over etc. You may benefit from accepting that you are not entitled to anything in life. You get what you earn when you earn it, and no sooner. None of this will change in other fields. Most successful professionals work very long hours.
 
I've know psychologist who change careers mid-career. I have known two who went to Medical School in their forties, one became a psychiatrist and the other was an ObGyn. I've also known psychologist who went back to school mid-career to get a JD and now are working as lawyers and making much more money in the corporate world.

Whatever you decide, your psychology degree and experience should be helpful. Some seem to go for the money but others have become housewives and raise a family after earning their doctorate in psychology.
 
Finally, not to sound sexist, I would probably feel less positively about psychology if I were a man. I have no kids yet, but imagine that my spouse will earn more than me. Again, not trying to be sexist, but that is just the odds. I've tended to date other professionals given the social circles I run in and my current boyfriend makes a good living. Therefore, the long-term economics may not be as big a factor for me. I feel relatively lucky, but all things considered, the clinical psychology route is not easy nor lucrative.

Eh, it's ok to sound sexist... because there is nothing wrong with stating obvious facts. Many women expect their spouses to make more than they do and there are a lot of cultural reasons for it to be true (existing social biases against women in the workforce for instance and/or preferential treatment of males in some career fields). Dr. Buss at UT Austin has done some interesting work in the area of mating strategies and spouse selection that are always fun fodder for discussions that border on the sexist if it were not for the data to support it.

However, as a man in psychology, I don't feel the slightest bit marginalized by my profession or limited by my choice of career with regards to reasonable earning potential. Sure, I don't see myself "getting rich" or even making more than my current spouse in the long run (who's income should eclipse mine when she finishes Georgetown for her J.D. next year). I do make a comfortable low six figure salary and I am fairly happy with that right now. I agree though that Clinical Psych is not easy or lucrative in general.

It's not the end of the world to be married or to date a woman who makes more than you do. BTDT. It often only becomes a problem when the man in the situation is not secure enough to handle it (I've seen this play out time and time again, usually the guy is the problem).
 
There are some troubling things economically in the field, as there are in many fields. And, certainly when accounting for inflation and real dollars, psychology (and other fields) is not as lucrative as it used to be. Still, there is a diversity of incomes within psychology. There is room to make money, I also think some of you folks are a tad entitled. I didn't want to use that word, but I'm not sure how else to describe it. In many ways, I am right there with you. But, the grass is not quite as luxurious on the other side as some are painting it. Nor is it quite so brown on this side of the fence. $100,000 a year jobs are not that easy to get. If you majored in business, you probably wouldn't be making that. The averages are much lower. Could you? Sure. Could you make 100,000 a year as a billing person working on commission in a medical office? Maybe. As a real estate agent? Sure. Car salesman? Of course. But, how much of an outlier would you have to be? What would you have to do to secure that income? Take a look at the average income in the US. Take a look at the average incomes of someone with a BS, with an MS/MA/MBA, with a JD, MD, PhD. Psychology is not that bad, just accounting for the average Joe that enters the field wanting to be a therapist. They make okay money. I think the US/world has changed. Things aren't as stable. There's no guarantee that you will be able to work at the same place for 30 years and retire comfortably. And, there's a perception that you could lose your job at any time. When that's looming, 100,000 doesn't seem so great.

I think too many people are looking at "psychologist" as the destination when careers are far more varied than that. I wish I knew that I would be making 6 figures and that it would be constantly increasing through the end of my career 30-40 years down the road. I don't know that. But, I can say that, at least for me, I made 16-24,000 a year through grad school with no tuition and have a low 6 figure income within 5 years of finishing my postdoc. My job is interesting. I get to do whatever research I feel like so long as I publish and get grants. I do a day a week of clinical work, because I like it. I take a class here or there to learn something new (and I'm paid for it). I am never on call. I don't work at home, often, other than reading and maybe writing if I feel like it. I don't teach unless it's an invited lecture somewhere. I have a few administrative responsibilities, acting as a statistical consultant, and the like. I have traveled to many different countries and to a large chunk of the United States presenting and talking about science. If I keep getting grants and publishing, my income will likely go up substantially. Other very successful researchers I know that are deeper into their careers are operating well north of 200K a year. To me, that sounds like a fun lifestyle. Now, there are downsides. I have to keep getting grants. My position, despite the "tenure-track" label is all soft money. If I don't get tenure, it's over. The competition level is fierce. I have to deal with the increasing demands of IRB.

Clinically, you can do similar things, work with a diverse range of settings, add in some forensics and make a good income. You could start a treatment center, employ a range of specialties, service a specific population. Whatever. Be creative.

Now, these types of careers are not as stable or as easy to maintain as, say, walking into a pre-made clinical position as a psychologist, social worker, physician, speech pathologist, etc.. . And, in that respect, psychology isn't the most lucrative field. It's not bad, but not great. But, would I want the lifestyle of a practicing physician? No. The more difficult question is would I want the lifestyle of an academic physician with grants? And, I'd have to say yes, to that. Because it is little different than my current gig but with extra money. Though, even that, isn't definitive. I liked graduate school. I like the skillset I bring to the table. Thus far, this has been a fun ride.

I think we should be working to make psychology better. Get rid of the ills that ail it. As young aspiring psychologists, we can see something that is affecting many fields, the impact of subsidized freely available loan monies. Crappy schools = crappy outcomes. I think that is the source of much disgruntlement in the field. Going to school for 5 years, racking up 100K+ debt, not being competitive for cool internships, postdocs and jobs = dissatisfaction. You see a lot of people on here deciding between social work and psychology. Is this the stuff high incomes are made of? No. And, it shouldn't be.

:thumbup:

My thoughts on the matter might of course change, as I have yet to fully enter the "real world," but at the moment, they essentially mirror those of JS and some others in this thread. Sure, $80-100k might not make you independently wealthy, but it's more than many of my friends currently make who've been out and in the work force the entire time I've been in grad school. Obviously you also have to take into account the "lost income" of 5-10 years in training, but by that same token, look at the added flexibility afforded by a doctoral degree. And, in that vein, look at the flexibility of clinical psych compared with most other doctoral degrees.

Personally, I think what often happens is that many who end up in clinical psych were first pre-med (or at least entertained the idea of medical school). And, throughout training, we/they deep down maintained that mindset of desiring the prestige that accompanies an MD/DO degree. However, as we/they progress through grad school, internship, and postdoc, it's realized that we as psychologists generally aren't afforded that same level of prestige, leading to the sprouting of resentment (both against physicians, and against the field of clinical psychology). This resentment is then fueled by the difference in pay and, to some degree, the lack of a clearly-defined professional path vs. physicians. But I, for one, wouldn't want the life of a physician. Having grown up around a surgeon, I saw first-hand the toll that path can take on all aspects of a person's quality of life, and it's something I willingly forfeited (with respect to both the pros and cons) when I decided on this route rather than medicine.

Edit: To answer the OP's questions, I know a few people who left the field during grad school to go to med school; haven't kept in touch, though, so not sure how happy they are. I've also heard of individuals going the med school route post-grad, but this (as expected) is less common, and unfortunately I don't know any of them personally, so can't comment on their happiness, either.
 
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There are some troubling things economically in the field, as there are in many fields. And, certainly when accounting for inflation and real dollars, psychology (and other fields) is not as lucrative as it used to be. Still, there is a diversity of incomes within psychology. There is room to make money, I also think some of you folks are a tad entitled. I didn't want to use that word, but I'm not sure how else to describe it. In many ways, I am right there with you. But, the grass is not quite as luxurious on the other side as some are painting it. Nor is it quite so brown on this side of the fence. $100,000 a year jobs are not that easy to get. If you majored in business, you probably wouldn't be making that. The averages are much lower. Could you? Sure. Could you make 100,000 a year as a billing person working on commission in a medical office? Maybe. As a real estate agent? Sure. Car salesman? Of course. But, how much of an outlier would you have to be? What would you have to do to secure that income?

Now to help put this in perspective, I know a guy who sells blenders, yes, blenders. He's on track to make $250k this year... Nearly unbelieveable, but true. He moves about 250 blenders a month... ya... really.

An education doesn't buy success... it certainly doesn't stand in the way of it either. Who knew, you don't need an education to make a lot of money?

Money is the last reason to pick a Ph.D. in psychology.
 
Now to help put this in perspective, I know a guy who sells blenders, yes, blenders. He's on track to make $250k this year... Nearly unbelieveable, but true. He moves about 250 blenders a month... ya... really.

An education doesn't buy success... it certainly doesn't stand in the way of it either. Who knew, you don't need an education to make a lot of money?

I know folks like that. I agree that one doesn't need an (advanced) education to make a lot of money. It's probably prohibitive! However, remember that making a lot of money means putting down some sort of an investment, and for a salesperson or entrepreneur there is a LOT at stake to lose. An advanced degree does give a certain sort of security. Once the blenders are outdated or the market changes, what then? Your guy will have to find another way to score or may end up picking up the pieces to a failed business.

In the end, although it's a cliche, people don't go into psychology for fast, big money. If that is your main priority, go into sales. The lure of professional training is to have a mark on the world, to have pride in a profession, to give to humanity. Psychology has so many ways to do that, in addition to being a (relatively) secure career without the need to hustle or wear down your body. Feeling useful and productive are important qualities in one's work.

Or you can be a psychology pro who sells self-help books or some other product. Why not? Best of both worlds. Many other professions get into retailing. Oh, but the ethics...
 
Now to help put this in perspective, I know a guy who sells blenders, yes, blenders. He's on track to make $250k this year... Nearly unbelieveable, but true. He moves about 250 blenders a month... ya... really.

An education doesn't buy success... it certainly doesn't stand in the way of it either. Who knew, you don't need an education to make a lot of money?

Money is the last reason to pick a Ph.D. in psychology.

My wife and I got about 3 magic bullets post wedding. They blow. What is your friend doing to solve the problem of sucky blenders?! I demand an answer. :D
 
A lot of fields are experiencing what we are. Look at airline pilots--they go thousands of dollars in debt to make less than $20,000 per year in a regional airline entry gig and never know what city they're in when they wake up. Less schooling time, sure, but still.

And I definitely don't want the lifestyle of a medical student, resident, fellow, or attending. My schedule isn't great, but it's a LOT better than those of the doctors or doctors-in-training that I know.
 
Sure, it would be great to have an idyllic 1950's life where an advanced degree was a rarity and bestowed upon you fame, wealth, and power. I guess you could leave the field and start anew as a stock broker or something... but I'm guessing you went straight to grad school from undergrad? I say that because there's a HUGE difference between having a career you love and having a career that just pays the bills - even if it pays the bills for a nice new car, home, electronics, etc.

That feeling of having your soul drained a bit more each day by a job that isn't inspiring or flat-out loathsome outweighs any paycheck in my opinon. Maybe that's how you feel about your experience with psychology - in which case, yeah, get on with a life you want to live!
 
Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:

"Don't ask yourself what the world needs, ask yourself what makes you come alive. And then go do that. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
~Dr. Howard Thurman
 
I was raised on a household income of 40,000 2012 dollars. It was not glamorous but we also had no serious needs or insecurities. From a child's perspective do you think they'd view being reared in an 80k family as twice as good as in a 40k family? This is meant to be silly--I'm just trying to point out that money is only part of the equation in raising kids.

Sometimes we forget that only 15% of American households make six figures. We are generally underpaid given our level of education and experience. Still, I don't think it's helpful for our own mental health to let the fact that a LCSW makes only 10k less than us engender bitterness.
 
I don't think it's helpful for our own mental health to let the fact that a LCSW makes only 10k less than us engender bitterness.

Yeah, especially since you're only talking pure dollars (and not career mobility, variety, options, etc.) and that 10k is most definitely over and above meeting basic expenses--total score, I'd say...as long as you have the desire and time to spend the extra time in school and training.
 
I am a firm believer of taking some time away from the profession for developing perspective and allowing refreshing energy or re-invigoration. To some extent making it through a doctoral program is not an easy tasks and most of us have to prioritize our family needs during this phase. I've heard of students finishing up the doctorate and then taking off a year or two to dedicate to their own mental health and re-establish family ties and become more involved with their children, especially women.

Rather than change professions....allow yourself some time for perspective seeking. Maybe seek out therapy or a group process during this time.
 
Well, I have heard of it. I agree with others who say the grass isn't always greener. There are good (higher paying) jobs to be had within the field as long as you are willing to be flexible about your life circumstances (particularly location) and are willing to set yourself apart from the pack with extra work.

If you aren't flexible about those things, you may have to settle for less than what you had hoped for (or were told to expect when researching graduate schools). I can see how that can be demoralizing for people and why they might consider other options - not just out of frustration, but perhaps even financial necessity.

Now, I have to say that other allied health professions appear to be MUCH BETTER ORGANIZED about advocating for themselves and their roles within the health care industry. Sure, many professions have their problems with supply/demand, but I have to say that for the time commitment and financial payoff, a doctoral degree in clinical psychology is a terrible investment. Much of this is due to poor leadership and oversight by our national governing body, and I think some of that reflects how young and broad our profession is.
 
Just to change the tone of the discussion a bit (it seems to have gone the way of financial pay off) - did anyone actually go into psychology expecting to make big bucks? i think a lot of us knew we weren't going to make 6 figures right off the bat, if at all. we were told this in the beginning of our program. there's something to be said about wanting to have a meaningful career/work life, one that you enjoy, look forward to, and feel comfortable with. And I'm coming from a place of being in debt over my head (University based PsyD program...one of the good ones, I promise) so yes, I do worry about money. But I am proud that I worked hard and came this far, and I know that I'll like what I do. Money isn't everything, and I feel like sometimes people get too wrapped up in it.

Just my two cents. Hope this doesn't rub anyone the wrong way.
 
While I have not considered leaving the field, I am certainly thinking more outside of the box when it comes to my career. Having graduated from a funded PsyD program, I still have debt from undergrad and money I took out to live while in grad school. Luckily for me, I am working in an area of the field that is doing well currently and I have had good job offers. I am looking more into programs development getting into administration related to my specialty area or for non-profit social programs. Having externed and interned in the VA system, I am considering going back there as well. While I know some here complain about the VA system and think it is not that great, I disagree. Sure you may only get into the low six figures. However, you are unlikely to get laid off, the work hours are decent, and the major benefit is the pension. If you start young there and get your 20 years in you are looking at $50-60k/yr in pension if you retire (that is in your mid 50s). This leaves you with a good chunk of your career to do private practice, teach, or a variety of other things with a pension to supplement your earnings. That sounds pretty darn good to me.

The truth is that a lot this depends on perspective. Were I not to be in this field, I would have been a teacher of some sort or, perhaps, and economist. Many of my friends have pursued PhDs is history,economics,etc. Compared to them, my earnings outlook rocks. I have a friend that is going into real estate management to fund his passion of being a college professor because he is only getting ~40-50k non-tenure track positions in the area without any upward mobility. Sure, it is not (necessarily) the earnings outlook of a physician, but few careers provide such levels of income. Medicine is not that great anymore either, I know a married couple (both physicians) out of work for almost a year because they cannot find suitable positions in tri-state area where they want to settle down. I have several lawyer friends that make $50-60K in jobs that they do not like (forced into bankruptcy and collections law as that is what is hiring while areas like criminal law are letting people go). While out profession is changing and there is certainly room for better organization and advocacy, there are still plenty of opportunities if you are savvy and your interests lay in some the more lucrative areas (For the record, I am not just talking neuro and forensics; I am in behavioral medicine and geriatrics and it is doing well).
 
Money isn't everything, and I feel like sometimes people get too wrapped up in it.

Just my two cents. Hope this doesn't rub anyone the wrong way.


Your desire to rationalize the situation is unlikely to offend anyone else... however I don't think it makes the plan of encumbering oneself with massive debt to get a Psy.D. any better of a plan.
 
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Thanks for the feedback everyone. What seems to have gotten lost in the replies are how all the problems in the field + salary expectations are contributing to my ambivalence about the field. Not making 6-figures is not the sole reason that I am considering leaving the field. I thought I made that clear in the beginning. I came into psych knowing and understanding that. For those of you who want to scream "entitled," that is such a privileged remark. I am not from a high SES background. So, for me, this was an opportunity to do better than my parents. And based on some of the replies in this post, I don't think some of you will get this. To say that my ambivalence is about salary is over simplifying the issue. I really thought my reasons were explicit in the original post.
 
Not to be a downer,but the idea that psychologists are paid well in the V.A. system is highly subjective. I am currently a staff psychologist at a V.A.in a city of 1,000,000 people. 2 years after employment, I am now a GS-13 (around $80,000) and it will take me over 10 years to hit six figures. This is only good money if you are single with no kids. This is not much money when you consider the years we are out of the workforce, if you have a family (better hope your spouse never loses his/her job), etc. Social workers and LPCs make almost as much as a psychologist (within 10,000 $), so, if you want to work for the V.A., get your LCSW, not your PhD

Okay, I actually think you made the opposite point of what you were trying to make. 80k sounds amazing to me! I graduated in 2009 and am now fully licensed. I work in a similarly sized city. I work in a large group practice, where the owner takes over 50% of what I bring in. I average about 32 face to face clinical hrs per week (to say nothing of the hrs I put in doing notes, writing reports, waiting for no shows, etc). Last year I made about 50k BEFORE taxes. I work like a dog and can barely make ends meet. Thank goodness I went to a funded program and I don't have loans to pay back!

Sadly, I think I would hate to work in a VA, but perhaps I should think about it!

Best,
Dr. E
 
Thanks for the feedback everyone. What seems to have gotten lost in the replies are how all the problems in the field + salary expectations are contributing to my ambivalence about the field. Not making 6-figures is not the sole reason that I am considering leaving the field. I thought I made that clear in the beginning. I came into psych knowing and understanding that. For those of you who want to scream "entitled," that is such a privileged remark. I am not from a high SES background. So, for me, this was an opportunity to do better than my parents. And based on some of the replies in this post, I don't think some of you will get this. To say that my ambivalence is about salary is over simplifying the issue. I really thought my reasons were explicit in the original post.

You make both direct and indirect references to financial issues in your OP. But, I agree that there are plenty of other stressors that make leaving the field an attractive fantasy. Clearly from some of these replies, the grass is not always greener.
 
Okay, I actually think you made the opposite point of what you were trying to make. 80k sounds amazing to me! I graduated in 2009 and am now fully licensed. I work in a similarly sized city. I work in a large group practice, where the owner takes over 50% of what I bring in. I average about 32 face to face clinical hrs per week (to say nothing of the hrs I put in doing notes, writing reports, waiting for no shows, etc). Last year I made about 50k BEFORE taxes. I work like a dog and can barely make ends meet. Thank goodness I went to a funded program and I don't have loans to pay back!

Sadly, I think I would hate to work in a VA, but perhaps I should think about it!

Best,
Dr. E

Thats weird because in some of our internship semimars here at my VA, many have highlighted that one con of VA employment is that you can easily make more in a succesful PP. That is, VAs pay pretty good but put a def cap on your earning potential. I have to say, if you are working over 40 hours/week and not bringing in more than 50k, seems like that practice is either struggling or not being very efficent. Being a slave to the insurance industry (and what they pay you) might be one issue too?
 
Well she also signed a crap contract where she only gets half of what she earns. I'm sure the owner of the practice is making a boatload if they have a few employees that agree to that arrangement.

The contract doesn't sound very favorable to say the least. It's unfortunate, but I've heard many similar stories about unlicensed professionals (particularly those who want to work in a specific location) basically being railroaded into signing very "unfriendly" contracts (e.g., >/= 50% cut off the top, no guaranteed referral base, handle all your own billing) in order to, if nothing else, secure the post-doc hours they need to become licensed.
 
The contract doesn't sound very favorable to say the least. It's unfortunate, but I've heard many similar stories about unlicensed professionals (particularly those who want to work in a specific location) basically being railroaded into signing very "unfriendly" contracts (e.g., >/= 50% cut off the top, no guaranteed referral base, handle all your own billing) in order to, if nothing else, secure the post-doc hours they need to become licensed.

Yeah I have heard of taking only 40-50% for PP. I don't do PP but it isn't uncommon. The only way I could see taking that type of contract is if they take care of the administrative work for you and they are providing a referral base, materials, and office space (i.e., you only want to do some part time PP and have a different primary job).
 
Okay, I actually think you made the opposite point of what you were trying to make. 80k sounds amazing to me! I graduated in 2009 and am now fully licensed. I work in a similarly sized city. I work in a large group practice, where the owner takes over 50% of what I bring in. I average about 32 face to face clinical hrs per week (to say nothing of the hrs I put in doing notes, writing reports, waiting for no shows, etc). Last year I made about 50k BEFORE taxes. I work like a dog and can barely make ends meet. Thank goodness I went to a funded program and I don't have loans to pay back!

Sadly, I think I would hate to work in a VA, but perhaps I should think about it!

Best,
Dr. E

Agreed with everyone else here that this is a bad contract. I am still working toward my license and my contract states that I make 60% of my earnings in my group practice. The practice pays for everything but my malpractice insurance (office, staffing, billing, materials, etc) and this includes supervision. My rate goes up to 80% of my earnings when I am licensed.

It makes me wonder how many of these stories of underpaid psychologists are things like bad contracts at work.
 
I'm nearing the end of internship and am thinking of doing so. The incessant re-branding myself year after year is ridiculous. The process of applying to postdocs is financially and energy depleting. With the current trajectory of the field (e.g. deflating wages, hallmarks of psych being usurped by other disciplines, licensing and board hoops, market saturation), has anyone on this board decided to or plans on leaving the field after receiving their degree? Does anyone know of people who left the field after they received their phd? Where did they go? What was their experience like outside of psychology? Are they enjoying themselves? Had I know the troubles of the field before I entered graduate school or even before my 4th year of grad school, I likely would have left.


Re-reading your original post, I think the question is what would you do. There are positions that you can use your degree that are outside the traditional clinical scope (A doctorate brings credibility for a number of admin positions in the non-profit sector), but I do not consider that leaving psychology. If you are like me and went straight through, there really are not a lot of options for a person to make great money (or even good money compared to psych). You can always take your degree and move towards I/O psych or any research/stats position if that is a forte. However, in this economy good luck getting a position that you do not have the right degree and experiences for.
 
Your desire to rationalize the situation is unlikely to offend anyone else... however I don't think it makes the plan of encumbering oneself with massive debt to get a Psy.D. any better of a plan.

I can agree with that statement. Things were different when I applied and got in, and I thought that I wanted to primarily focus on the clinical side of things and not build a heavy research-focused career (not to say I didn't do a lot of research, because I did, and I had to write a dissertation, posters at conferences, etc). It just doesn't make sense for me to regret my decision to get PsyD and take out loans because there's nothing I can do about it now. Just have to stay positive and continue working hard.
 
The contract doesn't sound very favorable to say the least. It's unfortunate, but I've heard many similar stories about unlicensed professionals (particularly those who want to work in a specific location) basically being railroaded into signing very "unfriendly" contracts (e.g., >/= 50% cut off the top, no guaranteed referral base, handle all your own billing) in order to, if nothing else, secure the post-doc hours they need to become licensed.

I know someone in the same boat who is basically putting up with a similar situation for the post-doc hours. It's VERY unfortunate, and frightening.
 
I know someone in the same boat who is basically putting up with a similar situation for the post-doc hours. It's VERY unfortunate, and frightening.

Oh yes, if you want to be rich, be the owner of my practice! He is ROLLING in dough. He's a greedy SOB.

Historically, he has hooked people into my practice because in this state it is almost impossible to get a job w/o a license. I know, I looked hard. So people sign on with him planning to leave after they get their license. But, that is easier said than done. It is easy to get used to the luxury of having a full office and billing staff and unlimited referrals. (We have an incredibly steady stream of insurance and other referrals. I could see 50 clients per week if I wanted.) I have been here for a year since I got my license.

I'm going to make the leap to solo practice soon, it just takes guts because income can be very uncertain for a few years. And then I'd have to worry about billing insurance and all that junk. Also, there are stories of people leaving my practice and then COMING back because it is so hard to make it on your own. Scary stuff.

Unfortunately, there is not really an option to stay in my current city and move to another practice and get a better split. For whatever reason (perhaps because our owner's power and influence) other practices in the area do not seem to have a better split. My friend in an adjacent state gets 70% of what she brings in. I suspect it is very regionally influenced.

Sigh. I think I just convinced myself to get out of here sooner rather than later. Or maybe to go to med school. :)

Best,
Dr. E

P.S. The kicker is that he keeps us as "independent contractors" so he doesn't have to give us benefits. "SOB" sums it up well.
 
Oh yes, if you want to be rich, be the owner of my practice! He is ROLLING in dough. He's a greedy SOB.

Historically, he has hooked people into my practice because in this state it is almost impossible to get a job w/o a license. I know, I looked hard. So people sign on with him planning to leave after they get their license. But, that is easier said than done. It is easy to get used to the luxury of having a full office and billing staff and unlimited referrals. (We have an incredibly steady stream of insurance and other referrals. I could see 50 clients per week if I wanted.) I have been here for a year since I got my license.


P.S. The kicker is that he keeps us as "independent contractors" so he doesn't have to give us benefits. "SOB" sums it up well.


My positions are independent contractor as well. This is how many of the private practices operate to save money. The truth is that even many larger corporations are doing similar things to avoid paying healthcare costs and other expenses. I think many of these issues cut to the core of unfair business practices in the U.S. rather than simply within the field. Since the economy has gotten worse and many post-doc positions, internships, and jobs have closed, companies are taking advantage and people in need of jobs are getting squeezed. I took a look around the forums last night and many of the other fields are complaining as well. Those that are not complaining about declining pay are complaining about increasing work demands. Check the pharmacy and optometry forums for some of these complaints. The truth is that 'the worker' is losing a lot of traction in the U.S. compared to corporations. I wonder how long it will be until my annual medical physical is being done at Walmart or Costco. You can already get an eye exam or have your prescription filled there while you buy groceries and have your oil changed.
 
"I wonder how long it will be until my annual medical physical is being done at Walmart or Costco. You can already get an eye exam or have your prescription filled there while you buy groceries and have your oil changed."

I lol'd, good stuff and so true...
 
Oh yes, if you want to be rich, be the owner of my practice! He is ROLLING in dough. He's a greedy SOB.

Best,
Dr. E

P.S. The kicker is that he keeps us as "independent contractors" so he doesn't have to give us benefits. "SOB" sums it up well.


Really, you're gonna criticize your boss as greedy when he not only makes sure that you have a steady stream of clients and income, but when he does the same for others as well?

Sure he's making money, he's taking the risk. What is wrong with that?
 
Really, you're gonna criticize your boss as greedy when he not only makes sure that you have a steady stream of clients and income, but when he does the same for others as well?

Sure he's making money, he's taking the risk. What is wrong with that?

I could argue with you, but I won't. We'll have to agree to disagree. Suffice it to say that If you knew this guy, you'd understand. He is not a good person. I wrote more here, but then deleted it for fear of being recognized.

Hope you can find a better employment setting than I have.

Dr.E
 
My positions are independent contractor as well. This is how many of the private practices operate to save money. The truth is that even many larger corporations are doing similar things to avoid paying healthcare costs and other expenses. I think many of these issues cut to the core of unfair business practices in the U.S. rather than simply within the field. Since the economy has gotten worse and many post-doc positions, internships, and jobs have closed, companies are taking advantage and people in need of jobs are getting squeezed. I took a look around the forums last night and many of the other fields are complaining as well. Those that are not complaining about declining pay are complaining about increasing work demands. Check the pharmacy and optometry forums for some of these complaints. The truth is that 'the worker' is losing a lot of traction in the U.S. compared to corporations. I wonder how long it will be until my annual medical physical is being done at Walmart or Costco. You can already get an eye exam or have your prescription filled there while you buy groceries and have your oil changed.

:thumbup: x 10
 
I could argue with you, but I won't. We'll have to agree to disagree. Suffice it to say that If you knew this guy, you'd understand. He is not a good person. I wrote more here, but then deleted it for fear of being recognized.

Hope you can find a better employment setting than I have.

Dr.E

it sounds like this just might violate the IRS definition of an "independent contractor." When you do leave, you might consider filing a report with the IRS. Here is the link to the form.

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fss8.pdf

Revenge can be fun and financially rewarding. If the SS-8 confirms that you are not an independent contractor, you can get your self-employment tax back for as many as three years.

Almost all of the fee-spitting contracts are unethical and questionably legal. The only reason so many people use them in our field is that psychologists don't challenge them more often.
 
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