LECOM DSP vs PBL

[sabsaf123]

Hey guys,
I got into LECOM-B and trying to decide if I want to attend my upcoming interview at LECOM-E.

I searched the old forums but I believe there may be some conflicting information. I was recently accepted at LECOM-B which is all PBL. PBL meets MWF for ~2hrs and then they have minor labs/pt assesments/etc. Tue. Thur. for ~2hrs. So clearly class is very minimal for PBL students.

Could someone explain to me how things work at LECOM-Erie? From my knowledge:
LDP: Mandatory lecture 5 days/wk (so A LOT of time at school)
PBL: same thing as LECOM-B
DSP:...?more or less required attendance than PBL?

Also can someone tell me the books used at LECOM?

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[jordansetron]

I currently attend LECOM-B and you should know that the PBL curriculum is a great way to learn clinical medicine, BUT the school will still make you come to the building all the time for dumb stuff. You end up spending alot of time at the school for mandatory talks, OPP, and clinical exam. And attendance is enforced sometime to the point where they will deduct from your final grade if you miss a class.

I havent bought a single book. I primarily use the library books and pdf files. Some facilitators however will require you to bring personal copies to pbl sessions but only a small majority.

 

[sabsaf123]

I currently attend LECOM-B and you should know that the PBL curriculum is a great way to learn clinical medicine, BUT the school will still make you come to the building all the time for dumb stuff. You end up spending alot of time at the school for mandatory talks, OPP, and clinical exam. And attendance is enforced sometime to the point where they will deduct from your final grade if you miss a class.

I havent bought a single book. I primarily use the library books and pdf files. Some facilitators however will require you to bring personal copies to pbl sessions but only a small majority.

Really? So how often does that occur? On average, how many hours are you required to spend in class weekly? Is it still less than DSP?

 

[murcott]

Really? So how often does that occur? On average, how many hours are you required to spend in class weekly? Is it still less than DSP?

It's 2 hours 3x a week for PBL
2 hours of OMM lab per week
1 hour of lecture for OMM or clinical exam lectures randomly thrown in. You can count on at least one or the other each week. Sometimes 2-3 in a week.
Patient encounters for 2 hours thrown in the schedule here and there. I think we had 6 first semester?
And a few administrative hours here and there.

Nothing like a traditional lecture program however.

 

[deleted564680]

I currently attend LECOM-B and you should know that the PBL curriculum is a great way to learn clinical medicine, BUT the school will still make you come to the building all the time for dumb stuff. You end up spending alot of time at the school for mandatory talks, OPP, and clinical exam. And attendance is enforced sometime to the point where they will deduct from your final grade if you miss a class.

I havent bought a single book. I primarily use the library books and pdf files. Some facilitators however will require you to bring personal copies to pbl sessions but only a small majority.

Wow...PBL does not help with clinical medicine at all. LECOM-B students are failing miserably at clinical medicine and local preceptors rarely say good things about them "clinically." The only thing PBL is good for is that it gives you tons of time to study for boards and you can rock Step 1 and get a good residency.

Spending "a lot of time at the school for mandatory talks, OPP, and clinical exam." You mean basic DO school requirements? How dare you have to be in school approx. 10 hrs/week MAX. Gasp!!!

 

[ortnakas]

Wow...PBL does not help with clinical medicine at all. LECOM-B students are failing miserably at clinical medicine and local preceptors rarely say good things about them "clinically." The only thing PBL is good for is that it gives you tons of time to study for boards and you can rock Step 1 and get a good residency.

Spending "a lot of time at the school for mandatory talks, OPP, and clinical exam." You mean basic DO school requirements? How dare you have to be in school approx. 10 hrs/week MAX. Gasp!!!

From the sounds of it (both the SDN rumor mill and the LECOM rumor mill), LECOM-B has had some struggles in the clinical department the last few years, but I don't know that you can blame PBL for it. Additionally, the pass rate for 2014/2015 was 93.4% for Bradenton and 92.4% for Erie, both just above the national average.

I'm not going to proclaim it's the best clinical curriculum ever, but I'm not sure why SDN thinks LECOM's first and second year clinical skills classes are so terrible.

 

[deleted245139]

Shrug... Pal was amazing for me. My entire group of friend from pbl seemed to do well. Out of 40 from Erie, 1/4 are chief residents in their respective programs. Not a detailed analysis, but definitely does a great job of fostering clinical critical reasoning as well as early practical application of the basic sciences. I'd say the program is going to be what you make of it. I would choose it again and again and again. I give two thumbs up

 

[deleted564680]

If everyone keeps thinking it, saying in on here and there's 10+ threads about it...it's probably true. You don't see that kind of thing for ANY other school. SDN is a place that people can be truthful and anonymous.

Truth is, people who go to LECOM will never know what it's like at other schools.

Also this "Out of 40 from Erie, 1/4 are chief residents in their respective programs" means literally nothing without MUCH more objective data.

 

[ortnakas]

Truth is, people who go to LECOM will never know what it's like at other schools.

This is a fair point-- maybe LECOM students just don't know what we're missing-- but the reverse is also true. People who do not go to LECOM will never know what it's like there, either.

I'm not calling you out specifically, I promise; I just find it interesting that SDN members in general have a habit of acting like experts on schools they've never actually attended.

 

[jordansetron]

Wow...PBL does not help with clinical medicine at all. LECOM-B students are failing miserably at clinical medicine and local preceptors rarely say good things about them "clinically." The only thing PBL is good for is that it gives you tons of time to study for boards and you can rock Step 1 and get a good residency.

Spending "a lot of time at the school for mandatory talks, OPP, and clinical exam." You mean basic DO school requirements? How dare you have to be in school approx. 10 hrs/week MAX. Gasp!!!

I didnt mean to come off like I was saying time at LECOM-B was too much, I was just saying that students will be on campus for more than just PBL, and its usually at inopportune times with big gaps between classes.

Also it might be better for me to say that PBL is the best way to apply basic sciences to a clinical setting, not so much actual clinical practice. Its nice to work from lab values and SOAP notes instead of powerpoints. Its just my personal opinion. But yeah its true last year about 20% of the class failed comlex PE. The school is definitely struggling in the clinical education department. They had the head of clinical education "resign" after that historical failure rate. They had the opportunity to replace him with a great physician that would have done the program good but they refused to appoint him because he is an MD. Go figure.

 

[sabsaf123]

Thanks for the replies all!!!! Can someone please comment on DSP? Is it more time consuming than PBL? Any pros? Gotta decide if I want to cancel the interview.

 

[sabsaf123]

From the sounds of it (both the SDN rumor mill and the LECOM rumor mill), Additionally, the pass rate for 2014/2015 was 93.4% for Bradenton and 92.4% for Erie, both just above the national average.

.

http://lecom.edu/about-lecom/lecom-accreditation/lecom-comlex-pass-rates/

according to that it was closer to 98% for both

Edit: also if you go to lecom can you please give me some advice on DSP?

 

[ortnakas]

Erie is the only campus that has DSP, so I know next to nothing about it. I know they have to go to campus for OPP and H&P (like everyone else), but I don't know how the DSP pathway actually works in regards to on-campus time. Sorry.

 

[deleted245139]

If everyone keeps thinking it, saying in on here and there's 10+ threads about it...it's probably true. You don't see that kind of thing for ANY other school. SDN is a place that people can be truthful and anonymous.

Truth is, people who go to LECOM will never know what it's like at other schools.

Also this "Out of 40 from Erie, 1/4 are chief residents in their respective programs" means literally nothing without MUCH more objective data.

I suppose it doesn't. Was also one class. I've also worked clinically with people from other DO schools who made me,wonder how they got an interview invite. Same with some MD schools. Point is (to parrot you)... People who DIDNT go to Lecom can't know the experience. Sorry you had some negative experiences with Lecom students. Id save the judgement. Lots of doctors out there.

 

[sabsaf123]

Erie is the only campus that has DSP, so I know next to nothing about it. I know they have to go to campus for OPP and H&P (like everyone else), but I don't know how the DSP pathway actually works in regards to on-campus time. Sorry.

Hey ortnakas!

Are you a student at LECOM-B or Erie PBL? I got into the program and had a few questions. Also where did you get the pass rate data from-since, from the chart I linked, it is closer to 98%?

 

[deleted564680]

I suppose it doesn't. Was also one class. I've also worked clinically with people from other DO schools who made me,wonder how they got an interview invite. Same with some MD schools. Point is (to parrot you)... People who DIDNT go to Lecom can't know the experience. Sorry you had some negative experiences with Lecom students. Id save the judgement. Lots of doctors out there.

Agreed. Lots of medical students from lots of schools are terrible. My point was that LECOM gets brought up by far the most on here and there has to be a reason. Students who are applying should just have all the information out there. I personally think upwards of 8-10 DO schools are probably deficient at this point in terms of rotations/clinicals/etc. It helps our profession to admit these faults and try to fix them.

In a normal circumstance, I would agree that most people wouldn't know anything outside of their own school but I personally have inside information at a lot of DO schools for reasons I can't really get into.

 

[jordansetron]

Agreed. Lots of medical students from lots of schools are terrible. My point was that LECOM gets brought up by far the most on here and there has to be a reason. Students who are applying should just have all the information out there. I personally think upwards of 8-10 DO schools are probably deficient at this point in terms of rotations/clinicals/etc. It helps our profession to admit these faults and try to fix them.

In a normal circumstance, I would agree that most people wouldn't know anything outside of their own school but I personally have inside information at a lot of DO schools for reasons I can't really get into.

I agree that problems need to be recognized in order for them to be solved. One faculty member recommended that students sue the school for failure to provide adequate medical education through rotation sites....

Its worth mentioning that not everybody gets subpar rotations, most people get pretty good ones. but when we're talking $120,000 in tuition, anybody getting screwed with rotations is unacceptable IMO.

 

[hallowmann]

OP, I don't know a ton about Bradenton, but the only reason to consider Erie/SH over them is when it comes to rotations. I've heard that their system of setting up rotations is frustrating, and kind of on you.

DSP is a mixed bag. I'd personally recommend PBL over it, because I've heard mixed things about the advisors, who you basically meet with constantly. That said, I've only heard that from a handful of students, but I only really know a handful of DSP students.

Agreed. Lots of medical students from lots of schools are terrible. My point was that LECOM gets brought up by far the most on here and there has to be a reason. Students who are applying should just have all the information out there. I personally think upwards of 8-10 DO schools are probably deficient at this point in terms of rotations/clinicals/etc. It helps our profession to admit these faults and try to fix them.

In a normal circumstance, I would agree that most people wouldn't know anything outside of their own school but I personally have inside information at a lot of DO schools for reasons I can't really get into.

LECOM gets a bad rep because they have rigid rules that are for the most part unrelated to education (dresscode, no food/drink, required meetings, rigid rotation schedules, miscommunication, abrupt policy changes, and to some degree unrealistic bureaucratic loopholes). People come to an interview, are shocked at the idea of no food/drinks in lecture halls and make another post on here about how "terrible" LECOM is.

If we were to measure actual complaints about quality of education, LECOM is brought up the same number of times as basically any mid-tier DO school, and its usually by the same 2-3 non-LECOM students.

 

[hckyplyr]

I'm at LECOM Erie in the DSP program currently. There are definitely advantages and disadvantages to each pathway. I feel that LDP has their hand held more because they are basically told exactly what to study for each test, and given powerpoints. If you know the powerpoints, you will score well. They also have EXCEL sessions where teachers go over questions/answers, scenarios, and stress what's important for tests. In DSP, we are usually given a 30-90 page blank "objective module," that specifically lists questions/topics of what to know, and usually where to find it (page numbers) in the book. We only have about a week (generally) to look up all of the module answers and study for the test. When filled out, the module is normally around 100-200 pages, depending on the module length. Its a lot of work, considering you have multiple other classes going on at the same time. DSP is great because we are barely in class, seemingly less than PBL. What I don't like is the module/objective questions are usually pretty vague, so you really don't know what exactly they are stressing for a possible test question. You might have a paragraph answer, or a 5 page answer, but you are always wondering if what you are studying is even what they find to be important for the test. Whereas LDP, the powerpoints are awesome, and you don't get overwhelmed with information that may not be pertinent.
We have a new pathway director this year, but I feel the DSP director and the faculty are definitely here for our benefit, and they definitely listen to our complaints and suggestions. They are always trying to make things more efficient and productive for the students. Yes, LECOM is very strict about dress code, food/drinks, professionalism, etc. But if you act like a normal person should and follow those rules, things are just fine.

 

[sabsaf123]

I'm at LECOM Erie in the DSP program currently. There are definitely advantages and disadvantages to each pathway. I feel that LDP has their hand held more because they are basically told exactly what to study for each test, and given powerpoints. If you know the powerpoints, you will score well. They also have EXCEL sessions where teachers go over questions/answers, scenarios, and stress what's important for tests. In DSP, we are usually given a 30-90 page blank "objective module," that specifically lists questions/topics of what to know, and usually where to find it (page numbers) in the book. We only have about a week (generally) to look up all of the module answers and study for the test. When filled out, the module is normally around 100-200 pages, depending on the module length. Its a lot of work, considering you have multiple other classes going on at the same time. DSP is great because we are barely in class, seemingly less than PBL. What I don't like is the module/objective questions are usually pretty vague, so you really don't know what exactly they are stressing for a possible test question. You might have a paragraph answer, or a 5 page answer, but you are always wondering if what you are studying is even what they find to be important for the test. Whereas LDP, the powerpoints are awesome, and you don't get overwhelmed with information that may not be pertinent.
We have a new pathway director this year, but I feel the DSP director and the faculty are definitely here for our benefit, and they definitely listen to our complaints and suggestions. They are always trying to make things more efficient and productive for the students. Yes, LECOM is very strict about dress code, food/drinks, professionalism, etc. But if you act like a normal person should and follow those rules, things are just fine.

What is the typical mandatory class schedule like for the week?

Also I agree that LDP might have their hands held, in some ways. But aren't they usually also the most stressed cuz of the amount of mandatory lecture?

 

[Whats up Doc!]

OP im not sure youll get a choice. Another student was in a similar situation as yours, they received an acceptance to LECOM E and they committed, then they received an email from LECOM B cancelling their interview since they already committed to LECOM E. I know you didnt mention if you committed or not but it might be worth calling and asking.

 

[ortnakas]

Hey ortnakas!

Are you a student at LECOM-B or Erie PBL? I got into the program and had a few questions. Also where did you get the pass rate data from-since, from the chart I linked, it is closer to 98%?

I'm at LECOM-SH, actually.

It's around 98% for COMLEX 1 and COMLEX 2-CE, and around 92-93% for COMLEX 2-PE (my source was the same as yours).

 

[jordansetron]

OP, I don't know a ton about Bradenton, but the only reason to consider Erie/SH over them is when it comes to rotations. I've heard that their system of setting up rotations is frustrating, and kind of on you.

DSP is a mixed bag. I'd personally recommend PBL over it, because I've heard mixed things about the advisors, who you basically meet with constantly. That said, I've only heard that from a handful of students, but I only really know a handful of DSP students.



LECOM gets a bad rep because they have rigid rules that are for the most part unrelated to education (dresscode, no food/drink, required meetings, rigid rotation schedules, miscommunication, abrupt policy changes, and to some degree unrealistic bureaucratic loopholes). People come to an interview, are shocked at the idea of no food/drinks in lecture halls and make another post on here about how "terrible" LECOM is.

If we were to measure actual complaints about quality of education, LECOM is brought up the same number of times as basically any mid-tier DO school, and its usually by the same 2-3 non-LECOM students.

I agree with this assessment of LECOM-B but with a small critique. Most of the complaints are not specifically related to medical education, but at the same time I feel like the school lied to me during my interview. They said they struck a deal with Florida hospital to secure ~80 rotation spots in orlando but not even a month into my first semester that completely fell through and scores of people were dropped from their rotation at Florida Hospital and had to pack up and go up north for rotations within a week. Honestly you could sit in a room by yourself for 2 years and read books for no cost to anyone (other than the books) to get basic sciences, but a medical school is needed for clinical exposure, something LECOM is supremely failing to do adequately for my 30K a year tuition.

To claim the school doesn't have any money to spare for white coats for students and then apply to open a 4th campus is insulting. Apparently the AOA is not a fan of the way LECOM has been doing things but due to whatever reason the school remains open and unpunished for their borderline abuse of students. Thats all off-topic though. From what I understand, Bradenton seems to be the more laid back campus but the rotations are in flux right now while Erie still has first dibs on some pretty good ones. I would do PBL if you get the chance. I am a huge fan of that learning style.

 

[hallowmann]

I agree with this assessment of LECOM-B but with a small critique. Most of the complaints are not specifically related to medical education, but at the same time I feel like the school lied to me during my interview. They said they struck a deal with Florida hospital to secure ~80 rotation spots in orlando but not even a month into my first semester that completely fell through and scores of people were dropped from their rotation at Florida Hospital and had to pack up and go up north for rotations within a week. Honestly you could sit in a room by yourself for 2 years and read books for no cost to anyone (other than the books) to get basic sciences, but a medical school is needed for clinical exposure, something LECOM is supremely failing to do adequately for my 30K a year tuition.

To claim the school doesn't have any money to spare for white coats for students and then apply to open a 4th campus is insulting. Apparently the AOA is not a fan of the way LECOM has been doing things but due to whatever reason the school remains open and unpunished for their borderline abuse of students. Thats all off-topic though. From what I understand, Bradenton seems to be the more laid back campus but the rotations are in flux right now while Erie still has first dibs on some pretty good ones. I would do PBL if you get the chance. I am a huge fan of that learning style.

Yeah, I really can't comment on rotation sites in Bradenton. Up north there are a good number of decent ones, and if you want an OK-good clinical education, it's attainable.

One of the worst things about LECOM is how suddenly policies may change and how quickly things might fall through. Its happened and for us it's primarily been an inconvenience, but that happening to Bradenton is a big deal.

The truth is at LECOM and pretty much any private DO school, rotations and sites can fall through pretty much until you're on the rotation. LECOM is more willing to let it happen because they don't pay for rotation sites. For most people it works out, but it definitely isn't a concern-free process. For people like me and you where part of the decision to attend was based on anticipated rotation sites that feel through, it annoying at first, but honestly after being halfway through 3rd year rotations I've gotten over it. Just be sure to work hard at setting up good selectives and electives.

Also, what the heck is that about white coats? We got them for "free". They make you guys pay for them? That's really messed up. Its only $20, and ultimately you have to buy at least 1-2 other ones on your own, but still.

 

[jordansetron]

Yeah, I really can't comment on rotation sites in Bradenton. Up north there are a good number of decent ones, and if you want an OK-good clinical education, it's attainable.

One of the worst things about LECOM is how suddenly policies may change and how quickly things might fall through. Its happened and for us it's primarily been an inconvenience, but that happening to Bradenton is a big deal.

The truth is at LECOM and pretty much any private DO school, rotations and sites can fall through pretty much until you're on the rotation. LECOM is more willing to let it happen because they don't pay for rotation sites. For most people it works out, but it definitely isn't a concern-free process. For people like me and you where part of the decision to attend was based on anticipated rotation sites that feel through, it annoying at first, but honestly after being halfway through 3rd year rotations I've gotten over it. Just be sure to work hard at setting up good selectives and electives.

Also, what the heck is that about white coats? We got them for "free". They make you guys pay for them? That's really messed up. Its only $20, and ultimately you have to buy at least 1-2 other ones on your own, but still.

FOMA was so embarrassed by the school refusing to pay for white coats that they offered to pay for it. And to top it off, I heard the provost literally makes over a million dollars a year...that the IRS knows of.

 

[hallowmann]

FOMA was so embarrassed by the school refusing to pay for white coats that they offered to pay for it. And to top it off, I heard the provost literally makes over a million dollars a year...that the IRS knows of.

I really wonder if it was a ploy by LECOM to get FOMA to pay for them. It honestly sounds like something that would happen. POMA pays for our coats and stethoscopes, but I think they do that for PCOM too, so it's more or less a policy of their's.

The Ferretti's make bank. The upside is at least they don't increase tuition nearly as much as other schools. Its like a fixed 1.5% annual increase compared to a 4-5% at most other DO schools and up to 7-8% at a few.

 

[ortnakas]

I really wonder if it was a ploy by LECOM to get FOMA to pay for them. It honestly sounds like something that would happen. POMA pays for our coats and stethoscopes, but I think they do that for PCOM too, so it's more or less a policy of their's.

The Ferretti's make bank. The upside is at least they don't increase tuition nearly as much as other schools. Its like a fixed 1.5% annual increase compared to a 4-5% at most other DO schools and up to 7-8% at a few.

I concur. I'm pretty sure POMA buys our coats out of the goodness of their hearts or whatever, so I wouldn't be shocked if the school had just assumed FOMA would do the same.

I don't think our tuition even went up from last year to this year, which is nice. I would have paid more annually had I ended up at my in-state public MD school.

 

[jordansetron]

I really wonder if it was a ploy by LECOM to get FOMA to pay for them. It honestly sounds like something that would happen. POMA pays for our coats and stethoscopes, but I think they do that for PCOM too, so it's more or less a policy of their's.

The Ferretti's make bank. The upside is at least they don't increase tuition nearly as much as other schools. Its like a fixed 1.5% annual increase compared to a 4-5% at most other DO schools and up to 7-8% at a few.

I do like the low tuition but I believe that ALL medical schools charge too much. In LECOMs case I think they are overcharging the s!@# out of us still because they dont provide alot of the things other schools do. Low tuition does not equal good value. I believe that they only increase the costs because they know they can and people will still apply reguardless. I truly believe that all the deans get together and agree by how much all of the schools with raise their tuition every year. Its not just a problem at DO schools. One of the worst offenders is USF's "select" program, which is essentially a bureaucratic scheme designed to charge students out-of-state tuition even if they are in-state and shipping them to Pennsylvania for rotations.

 

[Whats up Doc!]

Definitely cost a pretty penny but you gota pay to play I suppose, besides they would'nt charge that amount if doctors were'nt able to pay it off. True some struggle with paying off their loans but come on man if your a doctor for 10+ years and cant afford to pay off your 200k (my predicted value not including interest) loans then your doing something wrong and living way beyond your means.

 

[hallowmann]

I do like the low tuition but I believe that ALL medical schools charge too much. In LECOMs case I think they are overcharging the s!@# out of us still because they dont provide alot of the things other schools do. Low tuition does not equal good value. I believe that they only increase the costs because they know they can and people will still apply reguardless. I truly believe that all the deans get together and agree by how much all of the schools with raise their tuition every year. Its not just a problem at DO schools. One of the worst offenders is USF's "select" program, which is essentially a bureaucratic scheme designed to charge students out-of-state tuition even if they are in-state and shipping them to Pennsylvania for rotations.

I don't know, talking to people at some other mid-tier DO schools, I'm not sure they get more than us. You're right though, all the schools, LECOM included, are charging too much, especially for 3rd and 4th year. No way their cost of operation for those years is anywhere close to that.

 

[Oldenuff2nobetr]

Shrug... Pal was amazing for me. My entire group of friend from pbl seemed to do well. Out of 40 from Erie, 1/4 are chief residents in their respective programs. Not a detailed analysis, but definitely does a great job of fostering clinical critical reasoning as well as early practical application of the basic sciences. I'd say the program is going to be what you make of it. I would choose it again and again and again. I give two thumbs up

I'm doing PBL at Rowan SOM and I'm sure there are some differences. Our small group is very motivated and we are enjoying medical school. All of the classmates in the traditional program we talk to say they should have done PBL and none of us would give it up to do traditional... Also our in house stats on board scores has us doing equal to or better so I agree, it is what you make of it, difference is in the traditional you are a deck hand, in PBL you are your own Captain Morgan.

 

[GOHOGS!]

Hey guys! I am coming close to the end of undergrad, and I'm in lecom's early acceptance program. They are allowing me to choose the campus I want to go to. I like Florida weather a lot more, but I'm not sold on the PBL being best for me. I don't learn well from reading, but I am a self-directed learner. I learn best by looking at the teacher's power points outside of class. Which pathway would you guys recommend? Thanks for the help!

 

[ortnakas]

Hey guys! I am coming close to the end of undergrad, and I'm in lecom's early acceptance program. They are allowing me to choose the campus I want to go to. I like Florida weather a lot more, but I'm not sold on the PBL being best for me. I don't learn well from reading, but I am a self-directed learner. I learn best by looking at the teacher's power points outside of class. Which pathway would you guys recommend? Thanks for the help!

If you don't learn well from reading, don't pick PBL-- it won't be a good fit. (PBL isn't for everyone and that's okay).

LDP gets lectures all days most days, which is great if you like having materials provided to you and you like guidance, but obviously isn't very self-directed. It sounds like DSP might work for you but I don't know enough about it to endorse it; maybe @Promethean could chime in?

 

[DoReMiFaSo]

I'm not calling you out specifically, I promise; I just find it interesting that SDN members in general have a habit of acting like experts on schools they've never actually attended.

Preach girl!

I learn best by looking at the teacher's power points outside of class.

Sounds like you would do great in PBL the 1st half of the 1st semester when it is ppt heavy. But after October of Yr1, you won't get ppt for PBL contents, which is 90% (don't quote me on the exact %) of the preclinical curriculum.

 

[Promethean]

If you don't learn well from reading, don't pick PBL-- it won't be a good fit. (PBL isn't for everyone and that's okay).

LDP gets lectures all days most days, which is great if you like having materials provided to you and you like guidance, but obviously isn't very self-directed. It sounds like DSP might work for you but I don't know enough about it to endorse it; maybe @Promethean could chime in?

DSP is also pretty reading heavy. We get a module, which is a list of questions/concepts that we are expected to cover in our studies. We are supposed to go through the assigned readings to fill out the module, and then use that to study by.

What many people *actually* do is - get copies of powerpoints from LDP students, use Pathoma, Dr. Najeeb, Sketchy Micro, Youtube videos, last year's modules, etc. and use those to study from. There are also quite a few people who band together to complete the module, so that each student in a study group will take a section, do the reading, and they jointly put together a document that everyone in the group can then study from. This is efficient, but there is always the risk that someone will have misunderstood or glossed over a vital concept, and then everyone who relied on that as their sole resource ends up missing points because of it.

Personally, I like to look over the objectives in the module, read the text, look through the objectives again to gauge my understanding, and then use various video resources to reinforce anything that I'm still shaky on. I don't usually bother with getting power points, since sometimes the LDP objectives don't match up exactly with ours. I also don't fill in the module - like, I don't waste any time copying and pasting info from the text into the module. I think the idea is that doing so would create a document that I could come back to for board review... but board review materials that are already compiled and don't require me to do a lot of formatting text already exist and can be purchased or checked out of the library.

I do participate in group efforts to create quizlets and other shareable review materials, but that is mostly because I greatly value cooperation and want to contribute in some way. I rarely actually use those resources myself.

There is no way to get around reading in medical school. LDP even has to read some, and they have a lot less time to do it in. I think that is why DSP works for me. It isn't that the way we are supposed to be acquiring the material is ideal for me, so much as that, since I have more unstructured time, I have more opportunity to indulge my ADD, by doing a little of this, and a little of that. PBL looks like it has similar potential, but I don't really understand their curriculum at all, so I can't comment on that.

 

[DoReMiFaSo]

Woah, the post above should be sticky'd for any future inquiry about DSP!

 

[GOHOGS!]

Thank you guys! You guys are a huge help! I don't mind reading to some extent, I just feel like I study more efficiently by memorize power points. That being said, I am a lot more productive studying outside the classroom. From what you guys have said, it sounds like PBL and DSP would allow for more time to study outside of class. I know PBL only has a few tests during the semester, about how many does DSP have? Thanks to all!

 

[GOHOGS!]

Also, I read on the website that the DSP students may want to go the the LDP classes. Do they allow you to access the power points in the DSP pathway to help you work on your module? Or can you can you get the power points from the year before to help? Thanks again!

 

[ortnakas]

Thank you guys! You guys are a huge help! I don't mind reading to some extent, I just feel like I study more efficiently by memorize power points. That being said, I am a lot more productive studying outside the classroom. From what you guys have said, it sounds like PBL and DSP would allow for more time to study outside of class. I know PBL only has a few tests during the semester, about how many does DSP have? Thanks to all!

Just a heads up-- PBL does NOT get the powerpoints from LDP. It might theoretically be possible in Erie if you had LDP friends, but you might not be covering materials at the same time for that to be very efficient, either. Powerpoints are not an option at Seton Hill PBL or Bradenton PBL.

 

[Promethean]

Also, I read on the website that the DSP students may want to go the the LDP classes. Do they allow you to access the power points in the DSP pathway to help you work on your module? Or can you can you get the power points from the year before to help? Thanks again!

You *can* go to lectures, when they line up. They don't always. During the block where we were doing our basic sciences, LDP had lectures on micro, path, pharm, biochem, etc. all in a day, across the several weeks. DSP did one module at a time, so we had all of biochem done in the first couple weeks, then all of micro, etc. So, if LDP had a lecture on something you were struggling with at the same time that you would be working on it, that would work.

Our faculty is very opposed*** to us using power points from LDP and they aren't provided through official channels. USB sticks and google drives abound, though, with material from this and prior years readily available from other students.

Tests: DSP sometimes has quizzes and other small point opportunities (workshops, labs) when we meet (once or twice a week) to discuss any questions we have about the module. Then we have one or two exams for each module. So, one or two 5 point quizzes along the way and a 80 (more or less) point exam gives you your grade for the module. The quizzes aren't going to do much to your grade, unless you are on the line between a C and a B, maybe. So, we end up taking an exam every couple of weeks? And each exam is worth 1-3 credits worth of material? That seems about right so far. Plus exams in H&P, OPP, and other courses that everyone takes together.

***The reasoning seems to be that power points are intended to accompany lectures. If you try to use the power point without the lecture, you are missing important details that they would have wanted to impart to you, but which may not be obvious from the slide. If you want to learn from power points, they encourage you to select LDP. And, as I said, the objectives don't exactly match up between LDP and DSP, so you could find yourself studying material that isn't going to be on your exam, while completely missing material which will be tested. That is a bad place to find yourself, when every exam carries such high stakes.

 

[Z-Qualizer]

You *can* go to lectures, when they line up. They don't always. During the block where we were doing our basic sciences, LDP had lectures on micro, path, pharm, biochem, etc. all in a day, across the several weeks. DSP did one module at a time, so we had all of biochem done in the first couple weeks, then all of micro, etc. So, if LDP had a lecture on something you were struggling with at the same time that you would be working on it, that would work.

The structure of the DSP curriculum (focusing on one subject at a time) sounds awesome.

 

[Promethean]

The structure of the DSP curriculum (focusing on one subject at a time) sounds awesome.

You think that, until you realize that you have one week to master immunology.

They try to keep the chunks of info manageable, but there is JUST so much. One thing at a time means that you can't allocate time away from a topic that comes easier for you into one that that you are struggling with. I often find myself wishing that I had just a little more time to reflect on concepts that are particularly fascinating or high yield. The feeling is that of running along tethered behind a horse. Sometimes, you can kinda run and stumble forward, mostly keeping up. Sometimes, you lose your footing and get dragged along the ground a bit. The horse doesn't really appreciate your distress, and it definitely isn't planning on changing its pace for you, so you'll keep up or else.

Med school is a marathon no matter what, and there are positives and negatives for every pathway. Don't lose sight of that. Every benefit comes with trade offs. That is just an inevitable fact of having to learn so much in such a short span of time.

 

[GOHOGS!]

That makes a lot of sense. It sounds like the LDP pathway would be more suited to the way I study. The only problem is I like to take my time to study the material after class is over. Given LDP is in class for a lot of the day, it may be hard to find time to do that. It almost seems like learning to get the info through the textbooks and doing PBL or
DSP might be the best thing to do. How frequently do can you find other means of filling out the module( videos, online sources, etc.) for DSP? Or learning about the information in the case for PBL?
I just want to reiterate how much help you guys are being (ortnakas and Promethean). I know that you guys must be super busy, so I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help!

 

[Promethean]

That makes a lot of sense. It sounds like the LDP pathway would be more suited to the way I study. The only problem is I like to take my time to study the material after class is over. Given LDP is in class for a lot of the day, it may be hard to find time to do that. It almost seems like learning to get the info through the textbooks and doing PBL or
DSP might be the best thing to do. How frequently do can you find other means of filling out the module( videos, online sources, etc.) for DSP? Or learning about the information in the case for PBL?
I just want to reiterate how much help you guys are being (ortnakas and Promethean). I know that you guys must be super busy, so I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help!

Have I mentioned my ADD? Right now, I have a sketchy micro video running in another window. I've seen it before, and just wanted the audio while I looked at something else. I have youtube open (paused) to a Paul Bolin lecture on Pediatric Osteomyelitis. Another tab is open to Firecracker, and I pop in there and do a few questions every hour or so. I also have the pharm textbook open in Vital Source, and the MSK module open in Word. There is a First Aid Organ Systems text that I checked out of the library open to the musculoskeletal chapter, on the floor beside my bed (where all this studying is going down.)

I'm going to bet that most students are a lot more organized than me. =)

There is no limit to the resources that are available to you, both free and paid, online and off. The challenge is to continue using them as efficiently as possible, hour after hour, day after day. That is one reason I have so much going on. I get bored and wander away from one resource after a while. I make sure that no matter which direction I wander off, in, I am surrounded by other alternatives to continue learning the material. I keep the list of objectives from the module as sort of a north star, a guide book to direct my meanderings, so that I don't get behind or go too esoteric and study just one thing in so much depth that I fail to cover the rest.

Popping into SDN is how I get my human interaction most days. I mean, I have significant others and IRL friends and classmates, etc. But SDN is nice because I can stop in whenever I want, and when I abruptly wander off and ignore it for days or weeks at a time, no one is terribly offended by my absence. Partners and IRL friends get a little more touchy about that, I've noticed.

 

[GOHOGS!]

Hahaha I know exactly what you mean. I am very ADD as well. I like how you have a lot of different things (school related) going on at once, so when you get distracted it can be to something that may still help you. I may try that out sometime. Would you say that you can learn a lot of the material online? Or are there thinks in the textbooks that summarize the info for you usually? I have found that it is easier for me to understand info from websites, videos, charts, or summaries, as oppose to reading chapters of the notebook.

 

[Promethean]

Hahaha I know exactly what you mean. I am very ADD as well. I like how you have a lot of different things (school related) going on at once, so when you get distracted it can be to something that may still help you. I may try that out sometime. Would you say that you can learn a lot of the material online? Or are there thinks in the textbooks that summarize the info for you usually? I have found that it is easier for me to understand info from websites, videos, charts, or summaries, as oppose to reading chapters of the notebook.

You prefer your information summarized, pre-sorted. I get that. I do, too, and yes, there are endless resources that will do that for you.

But you really can't skip the details in medical school. One thing that helps me, when I really have to just read through chapters because I need that level of understanding, is to have a sketchbook open while I read. I take copious notes, draw diagrams, etc. It is less like sitting and reading a novel... which I doubt really works for anyone, and more like constructing your own summary as you go. There have been quite a few times when my sketchbook and I go to the library and spend 6 hours or so, going through a particularly dense chapter. Sometimes, it is just necessary.

But no, first I always look for the shortcut. There usually is one. If I don't find it, quickly, then you gotta go with tried and true because there isn't time to spend days trying to find something easier.

You don't have to find every resource on your own. Make a habit of sharing everything useful that you find and others will reciprocate because they will want to be included, too. Together, we are more efficient.

 

[GOHOGS!]

I see what you're saying. It makes sense you needed to be detailed in med school. I also had a question for you about residences (I know you're not to it yet, but you probably have a better feel than me). How important are grades in terms of what residences you can get into? I know boards play a big role, but is it more about passing or is getting a good gpa really important? Also, how are the rotations at lecom? Are they assigned to you or do you have to set them up yourself? Thanks!

 

[ortnakas]

Just a note on the other resources: while Youtube can be really helpful, Sketchy is awesome and Pathoma is life, it's also really important to study the original resources, since that's what you're ultimately tested on-- ESPECIALLY in PBL. It's really easy to get resource overload and end up not learning what you were supposed to in the first place.

I see what you're saying. It makes sense you needed to be detailed in med school. I also had a question for you about residences (I know you're not to it yet, but you probably have a better feel than me). How important are grades in terms of what residences you can get into? I know boards play a big role, but is it more about passing or is getting a good gpa really important? Also, how are the rotations at lecom? Are they assigned to you or do you have to set them up yourself? Thanks!

Preclinical grades matter, but not as much as boards or clinical grades, as far as residencies are concerned. Having good preclinical grades does provide some other opportunities though; you have to have a 3.0 to be an official club officer or travel to events at LECOM, and if you have a GPA under 2.5 you're in "alpha group" and have some additional restrictions as far as clinical sites and board prep.

Here's a post I wrote a few months ago on rotations (I quote it a lot because typing it up took forever):

LECOM-Erie/Seton Hill
(maybe @hallowmann can help me fill in details)

Length at each site: all of 3rd year, 4th year depends on site

How is site determined?: match “lottery” organized by class government. One site reserved for GPA >3.0. GPA <2.5 are "alpha" and go to Elmira, NY or Erie, PA

Do students have to set up their own rotations?: For electives, selectives and family medicine but not other cores.

Freedom to do rotations outside of designated site?: Yes for electives and family medicine. I'm not sure about selectives. Not for cores unless you're military (HPSP).

States/Sites:

Home Hospital: I guess-- Millcreek Hospital/LECOM Health in Erie, PA

Residencies offered: ??? (they exist, I just don't know details)

True Academic University Sites (Residencies): I guess-- Millcreek Hospital/LECOM Health in Erie, PA

Community Sites (Residencies): (a lot of these have residencies but I don't have details offhand)

Pennsylvania:
Allegheny Health Network - Pittsburgh
Aria Health - Philadelphia
Butler Health System - Butler
Clarion Hospital - Clarion
Conemaugh Memorial -Johnstown
Guthrie/Robert Packer - Sayer
Indiana Regional MC- Indiana
Meadville MC - MEadville
Memorial Hospital - York
Millcreek Community - Erie
Penn Highlands - Dubois
Pinnacle Health- Harrisburg
Saint Vincent HC - Erie
Uniontown Hospital - Uniontown
UPMC Horizon - Farrell
Washington HS - Washington

Ohio:
Adena Health System - Chillicothe
East Liverpool - East Liverpool
St. Elizabeth - Youngstown
UHS Cleveland East - Cleveland
UHS Cleveland West - Cleveland

New York:
Arnot Ogden- Elmira
Niagara Falls MMC-- Niagara Falls
Our Lady of Lourdes- Binghampton
Samaritan MC - Watertown
Sisters of Charity - Buffalo
St. John's Episcopal - Far Rockaway
St. John's Riverside - Yonkers
United Memorial MC- Batavia
WCA Hospital - Jamestown

California:
San Diego Regional - San Diego

Michigan:
Beaumont- Trenton

3rd year rotations: 3 internal medicine, 2 surgery, 1 family medicine, 1 geriatrics, 1 psych, 1 peds, 1 OB/GYN, 2 electives, 1 vacation
4th year rotation: 1 "clinical development", 3 electives, 1 surgery selective, 1 medical selective, 1 primary care selective, 2 emergency medicine, 2 ambulatory medicine, 1 rural/underserved, 1 vacation

Notables:
--most sites have a mix of hospital-based and outpatient rotations
--many of these sites have associated AOA or ACGME residencies, but I don't have the details and don't want to spread misinformation
--you rank your top six programs and top four schedules (out of 13 options) and student government attempts to balance student happiness with meeting clin ed's requirements
--if your site doesn't have a certain rotation (e.g. several locations don't have psych) you go to Millcreek for that month. Housing is provided.
--our schedules have been organized to have (pro) multiple elective months in the fall of 4th year for audition rotations and (con) a mandatory month in Erie for a geriatrics rotation 3rd year

Edited: added a section on rotations by year

 

[hallowmann]

That makes a lot of sense. It sounds like the LDP pathway would be more suited to the way I study. The only problem is I like to take my time to study the material after class is over. Given LDP is in class for a lot of the day, it may be hard to find time to do that. It almost seems like learning to get the info through the textbooks and doing PBL or
DSP might be the best thing to do. How frequently do can you find other means of filling out the module( videos, online sources, etc.) for DSP? Or learning about the information in the case for PBL?
I just want to reiterate how much help you guys are being (ortnakas and Promethean). I know that you guys must be super busy, so I really appreciate you guys taking the time to help!

Let's be clear about the PBL curriculum a little bit. You don't learn just about the cases. It may be that way in the beginning, where it takes you 1-2 wks to go through a case and you only have xx number of pages to cover per case, then you might full your reading quota with just the topics covered in the case, but you quickly go to many more pages and covering 2-3 cases per week. The cases are a guide to topics, but you'll be covering much more than that in PBL. You will finish covering pretty much all of the textbooks at least once and in some cases multiple times. We're talking on the level of ~6500 pages through the preclinical years.

In any case, if you are planning to do PBL, then expect to read a lot. You will have to read for a few hours a day on a daily basis and most of the time you will not have things explained to you, you will just be expected to understand it based on the readings. You will need to be self-disciplined and have good time management (true for DSP as well), and your grade for 70-80% of the 2nd through 4th semesters will be based on 3 exams per semester (in other words about 25% of your cumulative semester grade will be based on one exam). If you think you will be able to manage that, than the freedom PBL offers is well worth it.

 

[DoReMiFaSo]

Sketchy is awesome and Pathoma is life

Sounding like a 2nd yr much?

I will put in a good word for using Firecracker for 1st yr material. Besides that it helps me memorize things, (which I'm below average at,) it also helps me see connections better among the different topics.

We're talking on the level of ~6500 pages through the preclinical years.

Yep... I feel like I'm chewing through books at times. A brand new book in my hands can quickly get beat up cuz we do cover things pretty fast.