Let this NP teach you about CHF

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Why gluconate? Something about extravasation which went over my head

I'm a lot more familiar with the dermatology literature than internal medicine or emergency medicine literature, but I was taught since 3rd year of medical school calcium gluconate was the way to go. That's all I ever did as an intern.
 
The problem I have with you citing this blog is there are few citations compared to the number of claims they are making. So I have no idea where many of these recommendation or statements are coming from. Maybe many of these thoughts are just their opinion or practice style?

I can tell you the following:

1. Kayexalate does work. Probably not with only one-dose and certainly not immediately. It is a messy drug (literally and figuratively) and does have many nasty side effects. As with any drug you would need to carefully select the patient who might benefit from it. This isn't something I order in the ED and certainly has no use for immediately reducing potassium. This is used for multi-day inpatient stays to remove the potassium from the body if needed.

Per your citations, you have basically just regurgitated the EM lyceum review probably without reading the originally articles, no? Mini rant...not intended to be directed at you...this is the one downside of all these random EM blogs/podcasts popping up. They aren't formally peer-reviewed and allow you to avoid diving into depth on an issue to understand it. So it creates an artificial state where you think you know the literature when you are just applying what you heard incorrectly. This is one of the reasons EM gets so much crap from specialists. We should know the literature better than what some random wordpress blog says about it. /end rant

There are no studies to show it is efficacious in the ED, fine...of the literature I have read on the issue I agree. However, for you to argue that kayexalate that doesn't work at all is not consistent with what I have read or the experts have recommended.

If you don't believe me go to pubmed and search "hyperkalemia kayexalate."

2. Pertaining to calcium. Corey Slovis, one of the author of the article I posted is both the chair of Vanderbilt Emergency Medicine and wrote the Rosen's chapter on hyperkalemia. Not to mention he has published numerous peer reviewed articles on hyperkalemia (search his name on pub med). Even though many of these guidelines are more likely grade c type recs, I don't think the authors of the linked blog have anywhere close to the level of expertise in the topic area. Therefore, I still will argue that the advice in the ACEP piece is more valid and founded in better expert opinion. But follow whatever you think the evidence supports.

Just to be clear, the summary of the link I posted is not intended to be a rigorous scientific literature review.

Its a quick and dirty overview of the topic that should prompt further investigation and research.

I’ve researched keyexalate on pubmed before for presentations and haven’t found any quality evidence to prove their effectiveness for the emergency treatment of hyperK (I'm not talking about slowly lowering K past 24hrs which in itself is still controversial). If you know of any recent RCTs that say the opposite I’d be happy to read them. The bottom line is that if kayexalate were developed today, it would not be approved for the emergency treatment of hyperK.

As for Slovis and Rosen et al. I’ll give my own mini rant. Probably a third or more of the things you’ll find in their textbooks is outdated, inaccurate, or flat out wrong. There’s still so much we don’t understand when it comes to EM and just medicine on general (ACLS and ATLS are prefect examples). FOAMed absolutely has its share of downsides but its a huge improvement over traditional textbooks and society consensus statements. As an aside, those 2 are probably even worse when it comes to one sided reporting of the literature. Professional societies such as ACEP were created to advocate for physicians and raise money, not to guide clinical practice. Pubmed is a wonderful resource if you have time and know how to properly interpret the literature. Sadly most med students and physicians don’t. Citing a bunch of outdated or low quality studies (so called "grade c evidence”) doesn’t prove efficacy. Just because its on pubmed doesn’t mean its automatically valid and trustworthy.

In any event, I agree, everyone needs to critically evaluate the literature on their own.
 
Just to be clear, the summary of the link I posted is not intended to be a rigorous scientific literature review.

Its a quick and dirty overview of the topic that should prompt further investigation and research.

I’ve researched keyexalate on pubmed before for presentations and haven’t found any quality evidence to prove their effectiveness for the emergency treatment of hyperK (I'm not talking about slowly lowering K past 24hrs which in itself is still controversial). If you know of any recent RCTs that say the opposite I’d be happy to read them. The bottom line is that if kayexalate were developed today, it would not be approved for the emergency treatment of hyperK.

As for Slovis and Rosen et al. I’ll give my own mini rant. Probably a third or more of the things you’ll find in their textbooks is outdated, inaccurate, or flat out wrong. There’s still so much we don’t understand when it comes to EM and just medicine on general (ACLS and ATLS are prefect examples). FOAMed absolutely has its share of downsides but its a huge improvement over traditional textbooks and society consensus statements. As an aside, those 2 are probably even worse when it comes to one sided reporting of the literature. Professional societies such as ACEP were created to advocate for physicians and raise money, not to guide clinical practice. Pubmed is a wonderful resource if you have time and know how to properly interpret the literature. Sadly most med students and physicians don’t. Citing a bunch of outdated or low quality studies (so called "grade c evidence”) doesn’t prove efficacy. Just because its on pubmed doesn’t mean its automatically valid and trustworthy.

In any event, I agree, everyone needs to critically evaluate the literature on their own.

Which is my point exactly. I can't even tell from that blog where these random statements are coming from. Did they just wake up one day and say we should give calcium for a certain potassium. It's a difficult subject to create a RCT on for ethical concerns and quite frankly lack of potential profit.

Grade C evidence doesn't prove efficacy but it does say that someone who is smarter than me on the topic has an opinion for a certain reason. Even if Slovis just 'made up those recs' at least I know he has a reasonable background to do that. I don't know if that blog was wrote by a resident (who is most certainly not qualified to make those type of recs) and then loosely edited by their faculty.

Professional society recs become the standard of care regardless of what you think about them (although that article wasn't an actual ACEP rec just CME published by them). If you don't like them, then fine, that is why you went to med school and not robot school. But if you go against the standard of care in this country you need a compelling reasoning.
 
Why gluconate? Something about extravasation which went over my head

Calcium chloride is more irritating to veins and extravasation at the injection site can cause tissue necrosis, so it shouldn't be given via peripheral IV. There's also more Ca per ml than in calcium gluconate so I've been told that units/institutions usually only use one or the other in order to reduce confusion with dose.
 
I have a very simple question. Let's say there is full autonomy for all "mid-levels" (DNP, PA) in every single specialty, including surgery. Under those circumstances: Would the president of the United States or the Pope or even a major celebrity go to an M.D. or would they go to a D.N.P.?

no seriously, I'm just trying to break it down to the brass tacks. All we hear about is "equal outcomes" and "non-inferiority" and even many of them saying DNPs are better in many areas than physicians. Really simple question - if the president or the vice president or even Bill Gates were to fall seriously ill, would they see someone with an M.D. or would they see a "non-inferior" D.N.P. with "equal outcomes" studies?
Would these people allow their family members to be treated in an ICU run by any one other than an M.D.?

I think the answer to these questions are quite clear. Which leads any reasonable person to believe that full autonomy will lead to a 2 tier health care system.
 
Calcium chloride is more irritating to veins and extravasation at the injection site can cause tissue necrosis, so it shouldn't be given via peripheral IV. There's also more Ca per ml than in calcium gluconate so I've been told that units/institutions usually only use one or the other in order to reduce confusion with dose.

We use both, though we've run out of gluconate. The CaCl works through a big, reliable peripheral. I remember something about how even though CaCl has 3x the calcium, there is not evidence that it works better than Ca gluconate.
 
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.or...d-practice-nurses-does-not-endanger-patients/

This comment by a resident literally made my blood boil:

An excellent post indeed. And an interesting one as well. I am probably biased since my entire medical experience has involved working with NPs and PAs. From my undergrad research in heart failure, to my work as a trauma tech in the ER, to my medical training in Years 3 and 4 of medical school they have always been a part of how I have seen medicine done and it has always been a very positive and fruitful experience.

Yes, there are going to be "bad" ones who go outside their scope, who don't know or recognize their limitations, who are too arrogant to ask for help, or whatever. But those sorts of physicians also exist. In fact, one anecdote is that during my time in the ICU the PA I worked with was honestly at LEAST as good as most of the attending physicians.

The key, I think, is to recognize the fact that many conditions have become routine. Particularly in outpatient medicine, most of what we see is pretty rote and straightforward and there is honestly no reason to have the vastly excess amount of education and training we have in order to manage those sorts of patients. As my step-father (a critical care physician for a few decades now) likes to say, 80% of medical conditions can be diagnosed and treated by the ladies at the hair salon. We train for so long and learn so much to make sure and catch that 20% that doesn't quite fit. The point being that there is absolutely no reason NPs (or PAs) can't handle the majority of cases within a specific field. As Dr. Gorski pointed out, it is the foolhardy physician that overestimates his or her abilities and doesn't call for help when needed. In fact, in my medical education it was drilled into our heads that the first step of any emergency is "call for help." And they know they are training physicians here.

I think an important part of it - and really the only way that patient safety could actually be endangered (well, moreso than physician care) - is to make sure that the APRNs/PAs actually have access to help should they need it. But that is true for any practitioner of course.

Obviously, since the education is less broad in scope than our own and the training less, it is also necessary (IMHO) to specialize up front... which they already do. I mean honestly, I have zero interest in pediatrics. In fact the most common thing I heard on my pediatrics rotation was "That is absolutely correct... for an adult." Yet I had to rotate through it, do pediatric surgery, and my board exams all have pediatrics on them (Steps 1, 2, and 3 of the USMLE - not my subsequent specialist boards). Why? So I can be more comprehensive and have flexibility in where I want to go with my career. But if I already knew I wanted to do pediatrics, why not just go directly that route? In the new era of medicine - which is, absolutely and unequivocally a team effort - it makes perfect sense to have people with less overall education and training but with just as much (if not more) in a specific field of medicine. I think medical school and physician training are great for people who want more comprehensive education and abilities or who are just unsure of where they want to go with their careers. Having an opportunity to sample all the different fields of medicine is highly valuable. But if I run into a kid on the streets in severe medical distress my first action will be to call for help, then do general stabilizing and temporizing measures, and then get that kid to someone who knows how to do medicine on children!

There could be the argument that giving APRNs independent practice rights could jeopardize patient care. Horse hockey. That argument is like saying that the existence of urgent care centers jeopardize patient care because they aren't full ED's. It is the responsibility of the urgent care to refer and act rapidly as necessary and it would be the same responsibility for independently practicing NPs. Just as my license will be on the line if I don't act in accordance with my own practice limitations, so will theirs.

In an inpatient setting, I think it may be possible for APRNs to act independently in low acuity setting but I would be hard pressed to think it makes sense in a critical care setting (though I am very open to being convinced otherwise). That said, they make invaluable assets to critical care teams and I have thoroughly enjoyed working with them in those settings. It is amazingly wonderful to be able to kick around ideas and discuss patient care plans with someone who actually understands what you are saying. And to then be able to delegate tasks in order to make workflow go better is awesome. If I don't have time to place a central line I know the PA/NP can do it for me and we can get more patient care done and focus on the real meat of medicine rather than the procedural stuff which just takes up time. You do not need to be a physician to place a central line. Yes, complications happen. But if I caused a pneumothorax or induced ventricular tachycardia from placing a line I would still call for help as well. There's no room for cowboys in medicine anymore, no matter what your training and education.

Sorry for the rambling comment. Been putting it together in between doing other tasks. Basically I wanted to lend my support as a newly minted physician for advanced practitioners (or mid-level practitioners, whatever term is better/more favored/less offensive). They will prove to be an invaluable asset in providing good quality care at all levels. The only real trick will be ensuring that their education, training, scope, etc are defined and done well... but that goes the same for physicians as well.


:laugh: I am starting to get the feeling that our profession is becoming more and more irrelevant. With fools like this, there will be literally NO reason to go to medical school and do a residency (that is, unless you want to spend half a million $ just to "sample more" of what is out there :smack:)

You better believe NPs will have full scope of practice soon, and it will not just be in primary care like many of you head-in-the-sand people in surgical specialties believe.
 
Oh look:

Dr. Gorski:
Would you be in favor of training SNPs, or Surgical Nurse Practitioners? Anyone who has been around surgery knows how simple and straight forward it is to do many surgeries. First assist nurses and PA's already do a large portion of many surgeries so why not train them to do the whole thing. The can always consult a MD Surgeon when the SNP needs assistance. Thoughts?

David Gorski
I would note that NPs and PAs already do a fair number of surgical procedures, unsupervised, such as putting in central lines, floating Swann-Ganz catheters, inserting chest tubes, harvesting saphenous veins, doing skin biopsies, and much more. PAs, for instance, can be trained on the surgical PA track, where what they do is more surgically oriented. What you are describing thus already exists to some extent; the only question becomes where to draw the line in terms of procedures. I would also note that surgery tends to be more competence-based than knowledge-based in how trainees are evaluated, because it has to be; no doubt the same would have to be true if such a thing as a surgical NP of the sort you describe were to be instituted.

David Gorski
The PA I work with now used to be the PA on a cardiothoracic service of the local hospital. She floated Swanns, did chest tubes, covered night call, etc. Of course, PAs are by definition "supervised," but surgeons didn't watch her do several of the minor surgical procedures that she could do. I know that in some hospitals NPs cover night call for surgical services and can do common procedures like the ones listed above.
 
Lol no matter how much they get, they always want more. Why not teach them to do the whole thing? Because being a surgeon is more than just operating. You have to know how to do what's right for the patient. Why are there so many people in favor of the dumbing down of medicine? It's not as if patients get cheaper care, it just allows management to fill their pockets more quickly. Also the whole point of getting a broad based education is to truly understand your patient and be able to talk to consultants intelligently so that you can do what's right for the patient. The best doctors are the ones who understands things outside of their typical scope of practice.

Even the website title is wrong, medicine is more of an art than a science as any doctor worth their salt will tell you. But I'm all for giving them independent practice rights. Just don't ask me to help them out and then assume all the responsibility for their mistakes when they happen
 
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Lol no matter how much they get, they always want more. Why not teach them to do the whole thing? Because being a surgeon is more than just operating. You have to know how to do what's right for the patient. Why are there so many people in favor of the dumbing down of medicine? It's not as if patients get cheaper care, it just allows management to fill their pockets more quickly. Also the whole point of getting a broad based education is to truly understand your patient and be able to talk to consultants intelligently so that you can do what's right for the patient. The best doctors are the ones who understands things outside of their typical scope of practice.

Even the website title is wrong, medicine is more of an art than a science as any doctor worth their salt will tell you. But I'm all for giving them independent practice rights. Just don't ask me to help them out and then assume all the responsibility for their mistakes when
 
You can teach a monkey to fly a plane, just like you can teach one to insert a chest tube. Doesnt mean they should. Certain tasks are just far too serious/high stakes and patients deserve to have someone with an extent of training commsurate with the seriousness of the problem. When someones wife/husband/parent/child is dying on a table, they deserve someone with more than just simply on-the-job training. All those endless hours dissecting dead bodies should mean something in the grand scheme of things. Same with residency. If not then med school is a complete scam.
 
I have a very simple question. Let's say there is full autonomy for all "mid-levels" (DNP, PA) in every single specialty, including surgery. Under those circumstances: Would the president of the United States or the Pope or even a major celebrity go to an M.D. or would they go to a D.N.P.?

no seriously, I'm just trying to break it down to the brass tacks. All we hear about is "equal outcomes" and "non-inferiority" and even many of them saying DNPs are better in many areas than physicians. Really simple question - if the president or the vice president or even Bill Gates were to fall seriously ill, would they see someone with an M.D. or would they see a "non-inferior" D.N.P. with "equal outcomes" studies?
Would these people allow their family members to be treated in an ICU run by any one other than an M.D.?

I think the answer to these questions are quite clear. Which leads any reasonable person to believe that full autonomy will lead to a 2 tier health care system.

The problem is that I don't think the average person understands the difference in training. If you were to simply outline the differences in training pathways, I think the majority of people would choose to see a physician. That said, the situation is complicated by costs, and the reduced cost of seeing an NP/DNP vs. MD/DO for "simple" problems (e.g., URI) might be worth it for some. But for things like surgical cases or management of complex medical problems, I give people the benefit of the doubt and think they can appreciate the huge differences in training between the two pathways.
 
Might finally be time to do a pr campaign to the public on the differences in training, not to mention the typical candidate and selection processes to enter training. Saving 15% of the physician fee for total cost on a procedure would be only a few percent at most to the consumer, aka almost no cost difference to have piece of mind.
 
Who's the dinosaur that taught you this?

Probably the same people at the same hospital you work at who roll their eyes at the management in the ER when a patient is there for more than 12 hours. Quoting an EM blog as evidence is funny especially when they basically discount almost all of the evidence out there and what they do include is a study with a laughable amount of patients. Dd you actually look at where that data that emlyceum used for that 'review' of why kayexalate doesn't work? It was study that had 6 patients and was unblinded. SIX. Come on... Note that they didn't use any other study because all the other data show a reduction in serum potassium. Theirs is the only one that I could find that did not show any reduction in serum potassium.

I have seen kayexalate work literally hundreds of times at this point basically without fail as long as they poop. Insulin, albuterol and the like really only push it back into the cells and hours later it's just coming right back out and you haven't changed a thing. For life threatening hyperkalemia, sure that stuff is first line to temporize while the dialysis machine is being wheeled in. However for moderate to severe hyperkalemia, especially in non-dialysis patients, kayexalate or other diarrhea inducing meds have their place. With regard to intestinal necrosis, if you don't use sorbitol and don't use it in constipated ptients, you don't run into GI problems... but this usually involves actually seeing and interviewing a patient which I realize is sometimes tough in the ER.

Finally with regard to EKG changes and the K level being tenuous... who cares. All I care about is what is happening in the myocardium itself. I don't care whether the K is 6.5 or 8 if the QRS is 200ms. Calcium gluconate is pretty inocuous as well so overtreating with it will give you a little leeway.
 
Lol no matter how much they get, they always want more. Why not teach them to do the whole thing? Because being a surgeon is more than just operating. You have to know how to do what's right for the patient. Why are there so many people in favor of the dumbing down of medicine? It's not as if patients get cheaper care, it just allows management to fill their pockets more quickly. Also the whole point of getting a broad based education is to truly understand your patient and be able to talk to consultants intelligently so that you can do what's right for the patient. The best doctors are the ones who understands things outside of their typical scope of practice.

Even the website title is wrong, medicine is more of an art than a science as any doctor worth their salt will tell you. But I'm all for giving them independent practice rights. Just don't ask me to help them out and then assume all the responsibility for their mistakes when they happen

Cause they don't want that fluff. They want the autonomy, $$, and lifestyle. I remember a NP saying the worst part about doctors is that they don't talk like normal people, and she wanted to scream at a cardiologist to simplify his words so a human can understand them. Although there are doctors who only focus on algorithms, they are the minority.

Basically, most Americans want the easy path, which is easy to understand. It might not be the right thing, but as we know, that is how our society is. The people who put in hard work and effort are the 1%.
 
Cause they don't want that fluff. They want the autonomy, $$, and lifestyle. I remember a NP saying the worst part about doctors is that they don't talk like normal people, and she wanted to scream at a cardiologist to simplify his words so a human can understand them. Although there are doctors who only focus on algorithms, they are the minority.

Basically, most Americans want the easy path, which is easy to understand. It might not be the right thing, but as we know, that is how our society is. The people who put in hard work and effort are the 1%.

that just sounds like a dumb physician to me. part of intelligence is being able to relate to whoever you're speaking to IMO
 
that just sounds like a dumb physician to me. part of intelligence is being able to relate to whoever you're speaking to IMO

That is a good point, that is why I try to leave off too much medical jargon if people are looking at me funny. 😛
 
Cause they don't want that fluff. They want the autonomy, $$, and lifestyle. I remember a NP saying the worst part about doctors is that they don't talk like normal people, and she wanted to scream at a cardiologist to simplify his words so a human can understand them. Although there are doctors who only focus on algorithms, they are the minority.

Basically, most Americans want the easy path, which is easy to understand. It might not be the right thing, but as we know, that is how our society is. The people who put in hard work and effort are the 1%.

I'm against having stupid words like sontometer, absonce seizures and dilatation but every educated field has their technical terms that help them understand. It's good that we have shibboleths to help distinguish the real doctors from the fakes
 
Cause they don't want that fluff. They want the autonomy, $$, and lifestyle. I remember a NP saying the worst part about doctors is that they don't talk like normal people, and she wanted to scream at a cardiologist to simplify his words so a human can understand them. Although there are doctors who only focus on algorithms, they are the minority.

Basically, most Americans want the easy path, which is easy to understand. It might not be the right thing, but as we know, that is how our society is. The people who put in hard work and effort are the 1%.

Maybe the NP couldn't understand them....
 
that just sounds like a dumb physician to me. part of intelligence is being able to relate to whoever you're speaking to IMO

As Grover alluded to, it sounds like the NP is frustrated that he/she doesn't understand the physician's big words and fancy diagnoses.

I'm all for omitting complex jargon and trying to relate complicated concepts in simplistic ways to laypersons, but I am not going to cut out medical terminology when speaking with other health professionals. If NPs want to sit at the grown-ups table, they can't complain when the physicians take away their sippy cup.
 
As Grover alluded to, it sounds like the NP is frustrated that he/she doesn't understand the physician's big words and fancy diagnoses.

I'm all for omitting complex jargon and trying to relate complicated concepts in simplistic ways to laypersons, but I am not going to cut out medical terminology when speaking with other health professionals. If NPs want to sit at the grown-ups table, they can't complain when the physicians take away their sippy cup.

oh I thought they overheard the doc talking to a patient, my bad
 
No, it was the NP talking with a specialist about a patient, and she was scoffing at the person for saying things just to sound smart. Then she said how they should get over themselves because they just rush in the rooms, only focus on one system and not even listen to the patients, while she listens to every need, makes sure they get the proper soda they need, blankets, etc...
 
Then she said how they should get over themselves because they just rush in the rooms, only focus on one system and not even listen to the patients, while she listens to every need, makes sure they get the proper soda they need, blankets, etc...

If nps work in an er and do all this, they will blow their brains out.

And get fired for not seeing patients fast enough.
 
As Grover alluded to, it sounds like the NP is frustrated that he/she doesn't understand the physician's big words and fancy diagnoses.

I'm all for omitting complex jargon and trying to relate complicated concepts in simplistic ways to laypersons, but I am not going to cut out medical terminology when speaking with other health professionals. If NPs want to sit at the grown-ups table, they can't complain when the physicians take away their sippy cup.
Well that is going to be difficult. I have met 1 DNP student a couple months away from practice who didn't know what pre-renal azotemia meant. Another practicing NP didn't know what a prothrombin time was (and didn't know why someone with atrial fibrillation needed anti-coagulation)
 
Damn you guys are brootal
If you've ever read the Angry Pharmacist, he is pretty wary of various "providers" as well:

I love getting hate mail from people who try to defend what I bitch about. Here is a good one:
Most CNMs have Master’s Degrees…hardly career college.
My response to that:
Then learn your **** so I dont have to correct your errors. If you have a “masters” degree, then obvously you should have some brain cells in your noggin so I dont have to waste my time correcting your fatal ****ups. I get my **** in order before I speak with a doctor about a medication, so you should have your **** together before you speak with me about medication.
Lets rehash the whole CNM/PA/NP issue shall we? For those of you who arent in the medical profession, heres a quick breakdown:
CNM: Certified Nurse Midwife – Basically someone there when you have a baby. Why they gave these people the ability to write prescriptions is beyond me. Their scope of practice is about a half dozen drugs.
NP: Nurse Practioner – At one time could prescribe everything a doctor could except C-2 narcotics (Morphine, Ritalin, etc). Thats changed.
PA: Physicans Assistant – A NP but could write triplicate Rx’s for Morphine, etc.
Now PA/NP’s are interchangeable.
Back to the rant:
How many pharmacists in the crowd have saved a CNM/PA/NP/Whoever-they-are-allowing-to-write-Rx’s-now-days/etc asses from something severe. Say like confusing hydroxyzine with hydralazine, or my favorite lamictal with lomotil.
I had a NP sit there and argue with me that hydralazine was for itching. This was a white chick too, so there wasnt any accent (dont get me started) or language issues. She was dead set that hydralazine was for itching. Well, I guess if you take enough of it you wont have an itch anymore.
Now this isnt a bash on all NP/PA’s, because i’ve met some of them that really know more than the Dr they work under. This is just a bash to all the stupid ones with the ego of a doctor, but without the schooling or balls to back it up.
Lets move on now to Home Health Nurses. I had a nice call day before yesterday from a Home Health Nurse that went something like this:
Her: “We have a problem here”
Me: *sigh*
Her: “I am supposed to give this person 10mg of methadone twice daily, but you dispensed the 5mg tablets”
Me: “What does it say on the label”
Her: “Take 2 tablets (10mg) twice daily”
Me: “So whats the problem”
Her: “These are 5mg tablets!”
Me: “Yeah, you give 2. 5 + 5 = 10″
Her: “Oh”
Me: !@#!$!@#!@#!$!
I swear, thats how the conversation went. When I hung up, I walked into the back room, sat down, and sobbed for the medical profession.

Lol
 
interesting had never heard of CNMs before
 
If you've ever read the Angry Pharmacist, he is pretty wary of various "providers" as well:

Oh yeah, I've seen this sort of foolishness.

Reading this thread, I guess I didn't realize how strongly NPs are pushing for independent practice. Scary stuff.
Why can't we all just focus on knowing our roles and doing what we're best at?
For all that pharmacy keeps trying to expand its scope of practice, I think most of us still recognize where we fit in the picture.
I'd rather be a badass pharmacist than try to be a half-ass physician. I imagine if I were a nurse I'd feel the same.
 
Oh yeah, I've seen this sort of foolishness.

Reading this thread, I guess I didn't realize how strongly NPs are pushing for independent practice. Scary stuff.
Why can't we all just focus on knowing our roles and doing what we're best at?
For all that pharmacy keeps trying to expand its scope of practice, I think most of us still recognize where we fit in the picture.
I'd rather be a badass pharmacist than try to be a half-ass physician. I imagine if I were a nurse I'd feel the same.
I really don't think most NPs are pushing for more independence. Most of the ones I have met really enjoy the niche they fill.

It's just a vocal few who don't understand the boundaries of their knowledge base.
 
I really don't think most NPs are pushing for more independence. Most of the ones I have met really enjoy the niche they fill.

It's just a vocal few who don't understand the boundaries of their knowledge base.
Well the vocal ones run the schools and the professional associations....they absolutely want equal standing as doctors
 
Well that is going to be difficult. I have met 1 DNP student a couple months away from practice who didn't know what pre-renal azotemia meant. Another practicing NP didn't know what a prothrombin time was (and didn't know why someone with atrial fibrillation needed anti-coagulation)

When I was on EM, one of the NPs manning fast track came over to main ER to ask about a patient who came in with new-onset afib with RVR. She came over to ask what dose of warfarin you start on. The EM doc was like, "Is she on rate control?" NP: "What? I just looked it up and saw you can give a bunch a drugs for afib and I picked warfarin. What dose should I send her home on?"

Also a failure on triage's part.
 
When I was on EM, one of the NPs manning fast track came over to main ER to ask about a patient who came in with new-onset afib with RVR. She came over to ask what dose of warfarin you start on. The EM doc was like, "Is she on rate control?" NP: "What? I just looked it up and saw you can give a bunch a drugs for afib and I picked warfarin. What dose should I send her home on?"

Also a failure on triage's part.

Oh my god. I remember thinking that medical school was stupid and why do I have to learn all this stuff when I could just look things up. Man was I dumb
 
When I was on EM, one of the NPs manning fast track came over to main ER to ask about a patient who came in with new-onset afib with RVR. She came over to ask what dose of warfarin you start on. The EM doc was like, "Is she on rate control?" NP: "What? I just looked it up and saw you can give a bunch a drugs for afib and I picked warfarin. What dose should I send her home on?"

Also a failure on triage's part.

This is really up there with the 'stat kayexelate.'

What confuses me when reading about these scenarios is that it seems like this is stuff a RN should have a basic awareness of, let alone an NP.
 
This is really up there with the 'stat kayexelate.'

What confuses me when reading about these scenarios is that it seems like this is stuff a RN should have a basic awareness of, let alone an NP.

It was very odd. From what I could gather, she had been an NP for more than a decade.
 
When I was on EM, one of the NPs manning fast track came over to main ER to ask about a patient who came in with new-onset afib with RVR. She came over to ask what dose of warfarin you start on. The EM doc was like, "Is she on rate control?" NP: "What? I just looked it up and saw you can give a bunch a drugs for afib and I picked warfarin. What dose should I send her home on?"

Also a failure on triage's part.
That is kind of awesome yet tragic, lol
 
It was very odd. From what I could gather, she had been an NP for more than a decade.
There was probably a mental disconnect between the concept of new onset a fib vs chronic a fib that's pharmacologically managed. That's what happens when you "learn" about disease on the job.
 
My sister's black lab has been a dog for 14 years, but he isn't qualified to make important medical decisions either.

I dunno, I might trust your doggie over a NP.

NP: Pre-renal azotemia? Leave that for the nephrologist I'm consulting for a Cr of 1.5. He's dehydrated for 2 days, so he needs fluids! Only 30cc, cause his BP is 140/80 and I don't want him to stroke out.

Black Lab: ARF! ARF!

Yes, he's in acute renal failure! Good boy, here's a bacon treat!
 
I really don't think most NPs are pushing for more independence. Most of the ones I have met really enjoy the niche they fill.

It's just a vocal few who don't understand the boundaries of their knowledge base.
Same with psychologists.

And nurses/midlevels can't stand when a physician uses evidence and medical terminology. Deer in headlights.
 
NP students determine their patient populations at the time of entry to an NP program. Population focus from the beginning of educational preparation allows NP education to match the knowledge and skills to the needs of patients and to concentrate the program of academic and clinical education study on the patients for whom the NP will be caring. For example, consider a primary care Pediatric NP. The entire time in didactic and clinical education is dedicated to the issues related to the development and health care needs of the pediatric client. While medical students and residents spend time learning how to manage adult clients and complete surgery rotations, a primary care pediatric nurse practitioner student’s educational time is 100 percent concentrated on the clinical area where the NP clinician will actually be practicing."

Except that np school is 2 years and you can do it online. There are no standards for licensing or degrees. Spending all of your time on one area means that you don't know anything about everything else. Are you just going to rely on the radiologists' reports entirely and be completely helpless in that regard? Also their clinical hours are vastly inferior as they are learning from other nps. Your education is only as good as your preceptors and you. If your preceptors suck, you won't learn much especially if you're starting from a much lower baseline with fewer clinical hours. If you're trying to take a shortcut into medicine, you won't learn much. They don't have the basic understanding that you need to practice medicine properly. I've taken nursing classes and helped out nursing students with classes. It's not even close.

This is a transparently weak argument. To illustrate what I mean, let me ask: What happens when a physician encounters something in the course of diagnosis or treatment that goes very wrong and he doesn’t have the training to handle? He calls in other physicians who can handle it! Seriously, by this reasoning, no gastroenterologist should ever be allowed to do colonoscopies because he can’t repair a colon if he perforates one, and no cardiologist should be allowed to do angioplasties because he has to call in a heart surgeon to fix the problem with an emergency bypass if he messes up a coronary artery during a balloon angioplasty, a known risk of the procedure. The key is not being able to handle everything, as every physician specialist knows. The key is to be able to recognize when you’re in over your head and can’t handle a problem and not to be too proud or stubborn to call for help from someone who can handle it. You know who taught me that? Pretty much every surgeon I ever trained under. To quote Harry Callahan, “A man’s got to know his limitations.” This is true whether that person is a physician or an APRN, and APRN training pounds a knowledge of those limitations home.

I personally believe that you shouldn't do things that you can't fix. I've seen so many stents in legs without proper indications placed by cardiologists that had to be fixed by vascular surgeons. Don't make a mess that you can't clean up. Nursing school does pound limitations home in a stupid way. I'm shocked that nursing diagnoses are a thing and you can't say that someone has heart failure, you have to say some bull**** like fluid in the lung secondary to poor cardiac output. But "advanced" nursing seems to be more about expanding limitations and arguing for equivalence than pounding knowledge of limitations.

One study, a chart review from 2008, compared the family practices in Pennsylvania and New Jersey to examine a single disease: Diabetes. Investigators audited 846 charts of patients with diabetes to compare adherence to American Diabetes Association guidelines for diabetes management between practices that employed NPs, physicians assistants (PAs), or neither. Practices with NPs performed better at providing some types of diabetes care, primarily monitoring tests, than physicians only or physicians with PAs, the latter two of which were statistically indistinguishable from each other. Whether there were confounding factors to account for the differences was not clear.

Being a doctor is about being able to think outside of the box and not have to rely on guidelines to treat a patient. Of course nurses are better at following guidelines, they're not as familiar with the basic pathophysiology that is emphasized in medical school. How is that an argument for nursing independence? It argues against it.

Patients were randomized either to NPs or one of the two family physicians at an allocation of 2:1 to doctors versus NPs, because at the time a case load half of that of a family physician was considered manageable for an NP. The resulting conventional group contained 1058 families (2796 members) equally divided between the two doctors, and the nurse-practitioner group comprised 540 families (1529 members), equally divided between the two nurse practitioners. Over the one year period of the trial, the number of deaths between the two groups was not statistically significantly different, nor was there a difference in physical status in terms of physical impairment, activities of daily living, or disability. The investigators noted a 5% decrease in gross practice revenue, but that was because the physicians were not billing for NP services. It was estimated that if the practice could have been reimbursed for their services, the increased volume of a 22% rise in the number of families under care could have produced a 9% increase in income.

So they did half the work and managed not to kill anyone in a family practice? Whoop de doo I guess. I sure hope I don't fall dead from going to my primary doc.

Although there were limitations in this study, including heterogeneity of studies, limited number of randomized designs, often inadequate descriptions of NP versus physician roles for purposes of the studies examined, and the difficulty in attributing to the NP specific outcomes, at the very least we can say that this review of the literature does not support the contention that expanding the scope of NP practice is likely to result in decreased quality of care.

"the methodology sucked and did not measure what the studies purported to measure but we can say that the body of literature about nurses written by nurses in nursing journals published by other nurses do not support decreased quality of care". Pretty weak argument for independence in my opinion

Dude probably just wrote this because his wife was giving him problems at home
 
IIRC, calcium chloride is caustic to veins, so gluconate is preferable. Or at least that's what we were taught.

i always wonder what the rationale for things are and if they're actually legit. for example, i just found out that the 5 out of 9 sigecaps for depression came from some dude named feighner wrote a paper in 1972 sometime between dsm 2 and 3 and he had 6 out of 10 criteria to diagnose depression. when someone asked him how he came up with it he was like i dunno it just sounded good. with all the revisions in psychiatry, we are now at 5 out of 9. seems to work pretty well though

or for carotid stenosis, it's 70% occlusion in symptomatic patients who shold get carotid endarterectomies which came from the nascet trial. i just found out about the nascet trial today
 
i always wonder what the rationale for things are and if they're actually legit. for example, i just found out that the 5 out of 9 sigecaps for depression came from some dude named feighner wrote a paper in 1972 sometime between dsm 2 and 3 and he had 6 out of 10 criteria to diagnose depression. when someone asked him how he came up with it he was like i dunno it just sounded good. with all the revisions in psychiatry, we are now at 5 out of 9. seems to work pretty well though

or for carotid stenosis, it's 70% occlusion in symptomatic patients who shold get carotid endarterectomies which came from the nascet trial. i just found out about the nascet trial today
What's wrong with the NASCET trial?
 
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