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CoolDOguy

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To all of my allopathic friends:

I come here to make peace between the MD and DO SDN world. Really, we should just drop all of the inferiority complexes, the arrogance, and the hogwash. We all have the same noble goal of trying to be the best physicians that each of us can be. Let's learn to accept each other and embrace our philosophies with reverence and admiration (they are more similar than dissimilar). 😀
 
I'll be your friend, DOguy! Everyone knows that osteopathy has lost its uniqueness, and therefore DO's and MD's are the same. 😉 😀
 
There nevertheless exists differences b/w osteopathy and allopathy, or else there would not be 2 separate degrees and philosophies. Same goals, yes, but same everything, no, osteopathy is still unique, just as allopathy is unique as well.
To say that Osteopahy has lost its uniqueness and therefore DOs are the same as MDs is like saying doctors in general are just boring and there is nothing special about them. No offense, just my opinion.
 
Do not disguise a your lack of respect with a gesture of kindness....DON'T INSULT MY INTELLIGENCE. I said that DOs and MDs are more similar than disimilar, but DOs are still unique!
 
Five posts and it's already degenerated into a pissing match. Is that a crushed olive branch you're grinding into the dirt, rotatores?
 
Originally posted by CoolDOguy
To all of my allopathic friends:

I come here to make peace between the MD and DO SDN world. Really, we should just drop all of the inferiority complexes, the arrogance, and the hogwash.

Are you sure that it isn't your insecurity complex that makes other people seem arrogant?:laugh:
 
womansurg,

It's obvious that CoolDOguy was instigating something with his original post. I'm just tired of DO?s (students included) constantly justifying their profession.

ENS Rotatores
 
Originally posted by rotatores
It's obvious that CoolDOguy was instigating something with his original post. I'm just tired of DO?s (students included) constantly justifying their profession.
I don't think that's the case. Osteopathic physicians SHOULD justify their profession. They have come far and accomplished much in a far less than receptive environment. Although far from being free of problems, osteopathic medical training has achieved well earned legitimacy in the medical community, and continues to demonstrate ongoing improvement.

I understand the frustration. All of us went through or are going through the process of medical training application. We know that the vast majority of osteopathic student selection is based on people who didn't have adequate scholastic achievement to gain admission to allopathic programs - we see this for ourselves first hand. The question is, how predictive is scholastic achievement in choosing good physicians? And the answer is, not very. Many excellent physicians emerge with modest measurements on standard scoring systems, and many poor physicians post scores in the highest echelons. Once beyond establishment of baseline competence, superlative scholastic achievement is of little value in predicting professional success as a practicing physician.

There is no question that - had I not gotten allopathic acceptances - I would myself be an osteopathic physician at this moment, and I think that it true for nearly all of us. Certainly there is the rare (very rare) individual who purposefully selects osteopathic training based on alleged 'philosophical differences'. Although this phenomenon is frequently referred to, I've never met anyone who has done this - and I know a lot of medical people. I have met people who chose their DO school despite high scores/grades, but once you know the real story, always it has been a case of wanting not to move away from where their spouse was employed, or other regional preferences. So the school was chosen despite being osteopathic, rather than because of it.

These are all generalizations, of course, but based on reality. So it becomes frustrating to hear the continual denial of osteopathic students. Most of us go to the most prestigious institution of higher learning to which we can gain admission. That doesn't mean that the education is less adequate at other levels - it's usually not. But let's at least start by speaking the truth...
 
I would like to attempt to steer this thread back to a discussion of the supposed differences between allopathic medicine and osteopathic medicine without it degenerating into a "pissing match." I am very interested in this topic and always seek to get each osteopathic student's opinion on whether or not there exist any differences.

I believe that the osteopathic profession serves a purpose distinct from the allopathic profession, but question whether this distinction really lies in what today's osteopathic medical student calls a "philosophical difference." Time and again the community of physicians is told that there are dissimilarities in the way MDs and DOs practice, based solely on the way each has been educated, but I struggle to see these in practice on the wards where MDs and DOs share space. I have repeatedly asked osteopathic medical students to define the differences between our two professions, but none have ever given me anything satisfactory. I recall only a lot of hand-waving and use of the word "holism" and the phrase "treating the person, not the symptoms."

Osteopathic medicine has clearly documented origins in a philosophical rift within "orthodox," or as Hahnemann liked to call, "allopathic" medicine lead by Andrew T. Still, MD, in the 1870s. And for decades the osteopaths fought for a place for the practice of their art, and the teaching of their art, to those who would listen and believe. They had a different way of practicing and truly believed in it, and wanted the world to listen and for patients to see things they way they saw them. For the most part the early DOs rejected anything having to do with the traditional practice of medicine, that learned by the MDs.

But then something happened to osteopathy.

Osteopaths seemed unhappy with being osteopaths. More and more DOs sought the unfettered practice rights and privileges of the mainstream MDs. DOs were locked out of hospitals, were constantly being questioned as to the validity of their profession, and were faced with a growing internal resentment for having chosen osteopathy in the first place.

To remedy this situation, the American Osteopathic Association, an organization founded in the 1900s to champion the education and practice rights of the osteopaths decided to re-tool the curricula offered by their accredited colleges of osteopathy. In fact, much of the re-tooling by the AOA was done to update the scientific aspects of osteopathic practice. Things which Andrew Taylor Still rejected as having absolutely no place within osteopathy, all of a sudden found a home in each and every osteopathic college in the country.

Since that happened it seems osteopathic physicians have lost much of their original identity. Whereas the early osteopaths used manual therapy as their primary tool, contemporary studies show that osteopathic physicians hardly ever employ "OMT" in their daily practice. Some studies even show osteopathic physicians using medication more frequently than their allopathic colleagues.

Perhaps some of Andrew T. Still's original teachings are indoctrinated in the DOs during medical school, but these philosophical pearls appear to lose much of their significance as a great majority of DOs train in programs without any osteopathic component. This would lead us to believe that osteopathic physicians, in post-residency practice especially, are several years removed from any sort of teaching of the philosophy of osteopathic medicine and that these DOs' practice of medicine will be incredibly similar to that of the MDs.

In my limited experience with clinicians of both schools, and with students from NYCOM, I fail to see the difference in approach to a patient. The NYCOM students I have rotated with will perform some OMT on occasion, but other than that, they will consider the same points I do in evaluating the patient. Their patient presentations are also very similar to my patient presentations. I have never met an osteopathic physician or medical student who considered the "person" rather than the chief complaint.

Just to reiterate, I see that there is a need for osteopathic physicians in the United States. Osteopathic physicians provide for a lot of the healthcare in areas not prone to attracting many physicians of either school. Osteopathic college also have a very strong primary care bent, and fully two-thirds of osteopathic graduates choose to become primary care physicians. None of these unique aspects of osteopathic medicine, however, are based in some philosophical difference that has yet to be defined by a contemporary DO.
 
Timothy :

I appreciate your well thought out and respectful argument. However, I think that there are differences........osteopathic manipulative medicine and basic principles of osteopathy, if you are interested read the foundations of osteopathic medicine text. I do not, however, feel that the day to day practice of medicine or surgery is different between MDs and DOs.....a good doc is a good doc. Therefore, all in all, we are more similar than disimilar. Furthermore, I feel it is a shame that DOs, specialists and generalists alike, do not use OMM more in their practices. Timothy, I highly respect your school (I am from the island) and the allopathic profession, in fact my uncle is a clinical instructor there. However, if you have ever had a problem fixed by a skilled osteopath I am positive you would become a firm believer in the healing power that it has.


Rotatores:

I was not trying to start a fight. I sincerely do not understand why MD students and DO students can not get along on SDN. It is so easyfor people to fight or make a snide remark hiding behind a computer screen. MD and DO students have more important issues to worry about, like malpractice insurance.......
 
I'm sorry coolguy, but DO will continue to remain inferior to the MD degree. The rationale is blatantly obvious... ask any DO and 95% are most probably reject applicants to the MD programs. I don't care about the way you sugarcoat the DO profession, you simply do NOT get the BEST health career applicants. I can as easily learn about osteopathic medicine without going to any DO program... we are all smart enough to be flexible in our learning, even postgraduate. You all know how it is... most DO applicants have subpar MCAT and GPA stats, just look at the averages for DO schools.

That's just the way it is. I can as easily go to someone who can do a good massage and get the same results as a DO. But the intellectual ability and stamina of an MD graduate clearly overwhelms any DO "pseudodoctor".
 
Originally posted by Mav
I'm sorry coolguy, but DO will continue to remain inferior to the MD degree. The rationale is blatantly obvious... ask any DO and 95% are most probably reject applicants to the MD programs. I don't care about the way you sugarcoat the DO profession, you simply do NOT get the BEST health career applicants. I can as easily learn about osteopathic medicine without going to any DO program... we are all smart enough to be flexible in our learning, even postgraduate. You all know how it is... most DO applicants have subpar MCAT and GPA stats, just look at the averages for DO schools.

That's just the way it is. I can as easily go to someone who can do a good massage and get the same results as a DO. But the intellectual ability and stamina of an MD graduate clearly overwhelms any DO "pseudodoctor".

I imagine that this is a waste of my time, but I'll go ahead anyways.

Where to start...

First of all, you are right that there are many DO students who are only there because they didn't get into an MD school. But as womansurg said, stats on an application are not the best indicators of how good a physician someone will be.

Second, yes, DO schools have lower stats than the higher-end MD schools, but there are also MD schools with lower stats than DO schools. The stats of my med school class are higher than our state MD school...and there are many people in my class who turned down slots at the MD school. It does happen, even if you haven't met someone who has done so. That said, there are also people in my class who got rejected from the MD schools.

Third, if you think that massage and OMT are equivalent, I recommend that you do some research into the subject before opening your mouth. You make yourself sound foolish.


All that aside, I look forward to the day when you work side-by-side with DOs...or under them.
 
CoolDOguy, I think that you're as close as bringing MDs and DOs together as you are to bringing Israelis and Arabs. Don't try too hard. I think that there will always be MDs like Mav that try to hide their boastfulness behind "rationale" and DO's like yourself that frankly seem care too much about what others think of you. As for the majority, they don't really care one way or another and they also don't get into these pointless arguments.

The only opinion that counts is that of the patients, worry about them, not us.
 
Originally posted by Mav
I'm sorry coolguy, but DO will continue to remain inferior to the MD degree. The rationale is blatantly obvious... ask any DO and 95% are most probably reject applicants to the MD programs. I don't care about the way you sugarcoat the DO profession, you simply do NOT get the BEST health career applicants. I can as easily learn about osteopathic medicine without going to any DO program... we are all smart enough to be flexible in our learning, even postgraduate. You all know how it is... most DO applicants have subpar MCAT and GPA stats, just look at the averages for DO schools.

That's just the way it is. I can as easily go to someone who can do a good massage and get the same results as a DO. But the intellectual ability and stamina of an MD graduate clearly overwhelms any DO "pseudodoctor".

shut the F up mav. get off your high horse, you prick. for somebody that wants to be a physician, you sure do enjoy verbally bashing others. does it make you feel good about yourself by stating how academically inferior DO's are compared to MD's? you've done this in multiple threads. are you a premed, med student, or an actual doc? i'm pretty sure we can rule out the latter based on your ignorant posts.

i love how so many people chime in on this subject with little or no experience with osteopathic medicine, and they're mostly premeds who think they know everything and go around making asses of themselves. mav, if you become a doc, are you going to go around treating DO's like idiots as you do on SDN? good luck in medicine (even more luck in life) with your piss poor attitude.
 
Originally posted by geromine
CoolDOguy, I think that you're as close as bringing MDs and DOs together as you are to bringing Israelis and Arabs. Don't try too hard. I think that there will always be MDs like Mav that try to hide their boastfulness behind "rationale" and DO's like yourself that frankly seem care too much about what others think of you. As for the majority, they don't really care one way or another and they also don't get into these pointless arguments.

The only opinion that counts is that of the patients, worry about them, not us.

couldn't agree with you more. absolutely TRUE.
 
Originally posted by geromine
CoolDOguy, I think that you're as close as bringing MDs and DOs together as you are to bringing Israelis and Arabs. Don't try too hard. I think that there will always be MDs like Mav that try to hide their boastfulness behind "rationale" and DO's like yourself that frankly seem care too much about what others think of you. As for the majority, they don't really care one way or another and they also don't get into these pointless arguments.

The only opinion that counts is that of the patients, worry about them, not us.

It's true, just like any other real world issues, endless.....i.e. racism, class/gender discrimination...etc...
There are MDs look down on each other too....what a concept
😱
 
Originally posted by womansurg
I understand the frustration. All of us went through or are going through the process of medical training application. We know that the vast majority of osteopathic student selection is based on people who didn't have adequate scholastic achievement to gain admission to allopathic programs - we see this for ourselves first hand.

I think that this is really the key to the superiority complex that MD students have towards DO's. However, it doesn't just stop there. It also projects onto many dental students as well.

Why does it exist? Well, premed is an ultra competitive curriculum which weeds out "weaker?" students. We're brainwashed into competing for grades and we fight tooth and nail to beat each other out. The only gripe I ever had with any of the people who couldn't hack it was that they'd drop out 8th week (10 wk curriculum) and the bottom half of the curve would fall off dropping my fat A to a B.

Eventually they'd figure out that their grades would NEVER get them into a medical school and they either applied DO or Dent.

So why do some MD's look down upon DO's? (Playing devil's advocate here) If they were smart enough to get into an MD school then they would have!
 
MAV and UCLA:

You children are devoid of any maturity, kindness, or respectfullness. I can only hope that your pompous, egotistic, vain, conceited, and grandiose attitudes rear their ugly, monstrous faces when it comes time for clinical rotations. The world would be better served to have you hang up your stethescopes and pick up trash off highway 95. It makes me very sad to think that these people may one day take care of a family member of mine.


I apoligize for trying to set some sort of SDN precedent. Furthermore, I do not care so much of what people think,but people are lying if they say they don't care at all. Also, Don't ever accuse me of having an inferiority complex because I tried to create some semblence of peace on this extremely volatile and sometimes very immature forum. Lastly, to all the adults in the forum, I am sorry that this came to be. I hope to work side by side with many of you in the future.
 
So why do some MD's look down upon DO's? (Playing devil's advocate here) If they were smart enough to get into an MD school then they would have!........................................................................................................................................................This is one of the most foolish arguments that I have ever heard. It is true that many DO students could not get in to MD schools, but it is also true that some DO students only applied to DO schools. Don't try and argue that point with me unless you presently attend a DO school, because if you don't then you are essentially talking out of your ass and making yourself look like one too. Furthermore, do you not think that there are highly qualified applicants that get turned away every year from MD schools? And that some may have wonderful MCATs, grades, and ECs but they still are not smart enough because, based on your criteria, they did not get into an MD school. I find that humorous, I always thought that intelligence was based on a number of factors.....analytical skill, verbal reasoning, mathmatical prowress. However, you have enlightened me that intelligence for the pre-med is soley based on ones ability to get into an MD medical school. Rethink your argument and possibly consider taking a philosophical or critical reasoning course, I would hate to see you try to fumble around with a differential diagnosis.
 
Mav and other DO haters,

I'm just curious has to how you will all deal with having a DO as your chief resident or attending during your medical education. That is..........a DO will be educating you.........and in charge of you..........how do you reconcile that with this deep seeded anger you have towards them........do you simply ignore your chief resident because he is a DO? i doubt it.

I got to an allopathic institution and we are lectured by DO's in the basic sciences and have plenty of them as attendings in the hospital..........I don't understand this. Do you think they could have become chief resident at an allopathic residency by being incompotent? I just don't understand you guys.............

later
 
Originally posted by CoolDOguy
MAV and UCLA:

You children are devoid of any maturity, kindness, or respectfullness. I can only hope that your pompous, egotistic, vain, conceited, and grandiose attitudes rear their ugly, monstrous faces when it comes time for clinical rotations. The world would be better served to have you hang up your stethescopes and pick up trash off highway 95. It makes me very sad to think that these people may one day take care of a family member of mine.

Nowhere in my post did I say that I agreed with any of those sentiments. In fact at one point I even went out of my way to mention that I was "playing devil's advocate" in order to answer some questions that were raised.

Apparently from the hostile tone of your post you do NOT comprehend what it means to "play devil's advocate", so I'll attempt to clear up your misunderstanding.

When someone "plays devil's advocate" they present an argument that they DO NOT AGREE WITH.

Would you be suprised to know that one of my best friends will be attending DO school next year? How about if I told you that I prompted him to apply DO?

I must admit that I'm sorely disappointed that you resorted to childish personal attacks in your post.

I don't take kindly to personal attacks and frankly you come off looking like a pretentious little prick. I pitty any of your future patients that are presented with this hostile, bitter, and insecure side of yours.

I suggest that in the future you work on your reading comprehension before you even presume to judge me again.
 
Originally posted by rotatores
womansurg,

It's obvious that CoolDOguy was instigating something with his original post. I'm just tired of DO?s (students included) constantly justifying their profession.

ENS Rotatores

Our profession is your profession. Period. God forbid intelligent people from practicing medicine from a slightly different perspective. Things like that never happen in the real world.
 
Originally posted by Mav
I'm sorry coolguy, but DO will continue to remain inferior to the MD degree. The rationale is blatantly obvious... ask any DO and 95% are most probably reject applicants to the MD programs. I don't care about the way you sugarcoat the DO profession, you simply do NOT get the BEST health career applicants. I can as easily learn about osteopathic medicine without going to any DO program... we are all smart enough to be flexible in our learning, even postgraduate. You all know how it is... most DO applicants have subpar MCAT and GPA stats, just look at the averages for DO schools.

That's just the way it is. I can as easily go to someone who can do a good massage and get the same results as a DO. But the intellectual ability and stamina of an MD graduate clearly overwhelms any DO "pseudodoctor".

You assume that allopathic adcoms have the correct formula for making the best decision all the time. I know there are many kids with great GPA's and MCAT scores who willingly desire to give something back to humanity - that is why they worked so hard in undergrad (btw - some of us worked just as hard, but weren't born with as much grey matter). There are also plenty of kids who have those high scores, but feel like somebody owes them something for it. I believe that attitude antagonizes a healthy practice of medicine. If you are interested, you might want to pick up "Empathy and the Practice of Medicine" by Howard Spiro, MD, et al. Just a suggestion.

I'm going to just stop there.
 
UCLA:

Listen, based on your previous post in this thread we all know where you are coming from. Trying to mask it with a little phrase (playing devils advocate) insults my intelligence as well as everyone elses. GROW UP!
 
Originally posted by CoolDOguy
UCLA:

Listen, based on your previous post in this thread we all know where you are coming from. Trying to mask it with a little phrase (playing devils advocate) insults my intelligence as well as everyone elses.

You're an insult to your own intelligence.
 
Oooh, oooh, oooooh, can I play, too?. I'm not enrolled in or headed for a medical school so I hope you'll forgive the intrusion into your forum. Anyhow, I must have seen this MD vs. DO hashed out a million times here. DOs would simply not be allowed the same practice rights as MDs if they weren't up to par. And since someone did bring up dentistry, I'm going to include it in my argument here. I was looking on the internet, and from what I've found, the average MD matriculant has ~3.6 GPA, the average DO matriculant has ~3.45, and the average dental matriculant has ~3.5. These are averages so there are plenty of people above and below these numbers, but they are far too close for there not to be tons of overlap. That is to say, there MUST be many osteopathic or dental matriculants that would also have been competitive applicants to an allopathic program.

Granted, there is a much higher proportion of super-GPA applicants opting for the allopathic program, but there are still MD matriculants with low and even sub 3.0 averages. I imagine that many who chose the DO path were on the low end of competitiveness and decided to go DO instead of doing a post-bacc to raise their stats and get into an MD program - it doesn't mean they're any less intelligent, just eager to start their education.

I honestly don't see how a few points difference in average GPA and test scores can prove any substantial difference in the quality of matriculants. There are SOOO many factors that determine the quality of a doctor. You don't have to be an Einstein to provide quality care; you just need above average intelligence with a commitment to your education and later to the patients in your care.
 
rbassdo,

Please explain to me your slightly different perspective to practicing medicine. And please don't go into OMT, I want to hear about something DO's practice on a daily basis.

ENS Rotatores
 
Originally posted by Supernumerary
from what I've found, the average MD matriculant has ~3.6 GPA, the average DO matriculant has ~3.45, and the average dental matriculant has ~3.5. I honestly don't see how a few points difference in average GPA and test scores can prove any substantial difference in the quality of matriculants.
I agree wholeheartedly that scores and grades are a weak and tangential measurement of one's ability to practice good medicine. I do think that, overall, allopathic schools provide a more consistent clinical training environment that, in my own experiences, seems to hold students to a higher standard of performance (much higher) than the osteopathic schools. This, in my opinion, is a legitimate criticism of osteopathic training which I would like to see the osteopath community acknowledge and address, rather than continually deny.

But I - again - reject the argument that MDs and DOs are similar in scholastic composition.

Matriculating students are a composite. An allopathic student with a GPA of 3.5 is very likely to have correspondingly high MCAT scores, 35 for example. If such were not the case, he or she would likely end up in an osteopathic program. The converse is true: a lower MCAT is compensated for by high grades and outstanding accomplisments. Thus while overall averages - in each separate category - are moderately higher for allopathic students, the overall quality of student (as measured by standardized testing) remains consistently and measurably higher. All generalizations. Exceptions - of course - exist.

While I'll buy that higher grades and scores may not matter, I will not buy that the matriculating allopathic student body does not have significantly higher grades and scores. They do.

I strongly believe that in order to understand and discuss an issue, people need to be able to do so honestly.
 
Originally posted by CoolDOguy
However, I think that there are differences........osteopathic manipulative medicine and basic principles of osteopathy, if you are interested read the foundations of osteopathic medicine text . . . Therefore, all in all, we are more similar than disimilar. Furthermore, I feel it is a shame that DOs, specialists and generalists alike, do not use OMM more in their practices . . . However, if you have ever had a problem fixed by a skilled osteopath I am positive you would become a firm believer in the healing power that it has.

The Foundations text also has a lot of the same hand-waving perpetuated by members of the osteopathic profession. "Holism" and "treating the patient, not the disease," is the same kind of thing one finds within the Foundations text. I have that text at home, by the way, and have read portions of it to get a better understanding. I like the book for the most part, but it does nothing to enlighten a non-DO on the actual foundations for osteopathic medicine.

As for being a "believer in the healing power" of OMM, I ensure you that my experiences have lead me to believe that OMM has a place in the treatment of musculoskeletal ailments. It's not quite as far-reaching as some DOs would have the world believe, but it certainly has its place within the scope of musculoskeletal problems.

Oh well. Guess I will continue to seek the answer to my question. 🙂
 
*sigh* DOguy, I know exactly how you feel about wanting a peaceful discussion, however, I have discovered that there are plenty of immature jerks that just want to argue and belittle other people. But I'm going to say my 2 cents anyway.

Who cares what your undergrad grades were when it comes to treating patients? Are they going to ask their doctor, hey, what was your MCAT score, because I won't be seen by someone with less than a 35. And I know someone who only considered DO schools and not any MD programs, because that's what he wanted to do. I also have a very good friend who went to the same college as me, got a higher GPA and a better MCAT, but was waitlisted at the school I was accepted at because they didn't think his philosophy of why he wanted to be a doctor meshed with theirs. I think he will be a GREAT doctor and will do infintely better in med school than I'm doing right now, but the adcom still didn't accept him. So....two points: one, the acceptance process is far from perfect; two, allopathic schools also care about philosophy.
 
CoolDOguy,

What a pity that so many people see a thread entitled "let's be friends" and join in to bash one another. I applaud your effort here. Prejudice takes a long time and a lot of effort to overcome. You are a credit to your profession.


I'd choose a DO with your attitude over a MD with the attitude of Mav any day of the week to proivde medical care to me and my family.

Only the ignorant think that GPA is a great predictor of the ability to be a good clinician. What it does predict, however, is the ability to do well on tests. The MCAT predicts how well one handles standardized tests. So these things predict how well the admissions committe could expect an applicant to jump through the hoops required to obtain a license to practice, but they don't do a very good job of predicting who will be the best physican.
 
Originally posted by rotatores
rbassdo,

Please explain to me your slightly different perspective to practicing medicine. And please don't go into OMT, I want to hear about something DO's practice on a daily basis.

ENS Rotatores

First, if our perspectives were the same, they're still be one "complete physician" degree instead of two. So...by nature, there should be a difference.

To give you an example of something that DO's do differently, on a daily basis, would be impossible. Just as it would be impossible to tell you what MD's practice on a daily basis. Most DO's use OMM - some don't. I am sure there are ideas and treatments that MD's don't rely on, that they may have learned during med. school.
If anything...learning and practicing OMM allows DO's to become more proficient at palpation. I realize this is a generalization, but I believe that this IS generally true.
I also believe that DO's, in general, pay more attention to things such as collateral ganglia, referred pain, and other "underlying" nervous and musculoskeletal issues that a given pt. may present. Is that better? Maybe when appropriate. Do DO's always check to see of Joe Patient's celiac ganglia are over or under stimulated? No...but sometimes it's appropriate.

I hope you understand what I'm trying to convey. 🙂
 
I've noticed that the vast majority of these threads are started by DO students or those who've chosen to apply to D.O. schools. To me, it seems as though some (NOT ALL) D.O. students are perhaps overly concerned/somewhat insecure about the way their degree is viewed by the rest of the medical community. So much so that they'll go out of their way at every opportunity to equate allopathic medicine with osteopathic medicine or "justify" their degree choice in some manner. I specifically remember a thread last fall where someone was complaining about the state of affairs at his ALLOPATHIC medical school, and a DO applicant decided that was perfect time to chime in and plug DO schools. As if the students in DO schools don't face similar problems. Actions like that just reinforce the insecurity issues I was talking about earlier. Honestly, the overwhelming majority of medical students at allopathic institutions don't sit around all day cracking D.O. jokes or viewing them as inferior or 2nd rate doctors. Why do some DO students care so much what MD students think of them anyway? We don't care what DO students think of us. It doesn't really matter to us. As long as you develop the requisite skills to become a competent physician, that's all that matters in the end. That's primarily what you will be judged upon. Not the letters after your name. I wish D.O. schools would start taking more applicants that really wanted to go the D.O. route b/c they believed in the philosophy rather than those who simply used it as a backup to allopathy. Perhaps then ppl wouldn't be so defensive. Can we please put an end to the pissing contest now?
 
CoolDOguy - I wouldn't worry about trying to change the perceptions of the ignorant. You are a wonderful voice for our profession!

I would also like to say that I am not an MD reject, nor are many of my fellow students. I had scores that would get me into just about any medical school of my choosing. However, I chose to apply only to Osteopathic schools. In the process of researching medical schools, I had the opportunity to meet with many physicians of both the MD and DO persuasion. I found that more DO's had a way of relating to patients and staff that was more friendly and respectful than their MD counterparts. This is not to say that there aren't MD's with great bedside manners. I simply felt more comfortable overall with DO's as people. Their technical acuity is every bit as good as an MD's. We use the same books as an allopathic school, and many of us pass two sets of boards. Quite honestly, whether you like it or not, you will be colleagues of DOs. I hope that those of you who feel threatened by that have a chance to mature in your residency. After all, we are supposed to be professionals, and I would hope that we all have the same goal - that of improving the health of our patients and our communities.

I look forward to working with all of you in about 7 more years.😀
 
Womansurg:

I will agree that the average GPA and MCAT are lower for osteopathic students (as you know, these stats are public knowledge). However, I still do not understand how a 27 on the MCAT as opposed to a 29.5 makes one physician head and shoulders above the other? Pointing to this difference in numbers perpetuates the idea that one professional is somehow better than the other. Honestly, I sincerely hope we all realize that much more goes in to the training of a physician. There truly is something to be said of empathy, stamina, drive, ambition. These are not factors which can be ascertained through standardized exams (I am not implying that DO students have a market on these qualities). Following this train of thought, the physician from Harvard is better (more knowledgeable, analytical, and astute) than the one from SUNY down state (sorry Timothy), and the SUNY guy is better than the person from Howard. This concept is detrimental and conterproductive to medical education. For instance, lets say one day you are an attending (can't wait for that day) and have an osteopathic student rotating through your service, based on your own personal bias, this student becomes short changed and does not get the attention, respect, or education that we all deserve. However, later in the student's rotation you find out that they scored well on the MCAT, had 98% on the COMLEX, and did research on the molecular basis of human cancer. Long story short, prejudice can and does hurt in all aspects of life. As physicians we have a responsibility not only to our profession, but to the lives of those that trust us. I ask you then, who suffers in the end of a prejudice scheme like this?

Do osteopathic students have lower average stats? Yes. Do I think it is that significant? No. Why? Because if an individual rises to the challenge of medical education and passes biochemistry, anatomy, histo, path, pharm (sorry guys, I will never mention biochem again) then that individual should be afforded the respect of the greater medical community, as well as the right to practice medicine free of all preconceived notions and to be considered an esteemed colleague. Medical students and doctors are not a product of undergraduate GPA and MCAT scores, they are a product of the medical institution that they attend as well as the effort that they put forth.
 
UCLA:

If I was mistaken about your intentions then I apoligize.
 
I realize this is three posts in a row but here it goes anyhow.

I just wanted to say that I do feel I have to justify my profession and my degree. Believe me, if the osteopathic community did not do that then we would not be where we are today. Justifying one's self is a consequence of being a minority in a big medical community. I do not have an inferiority complex......I swear (now he is in denial, quick get a psych...lol).


One last thing, it is often difficult to justify the osteopathic profession because OMM is not the most widely researched medical modality......we all hope that this is changing quickly. However, there have been some encouraging studies that have been done thus far. But I will say again what I said before, you have to experience it to believe it, I know this sounds corny but it is true. If you ever do have a pain or problem that will not go away easily, take a visit to a skilled OMM doctor.....it can be nothing short of amazing.
 
Originally posted by CoolDOguy
Womansurg:

I will agree that the average GPA and MCAT are lower for osteopathic students (as you know, these stats are public knowledge). However, I still do not understand how a 27 on the MCAT as opposed to a 29.5 makes one physician head and shoulders above the other?...Following this train of thought, the physician from Harvard is better (more knowledgeable, analytical, and astute) than the one from SUNY down state (sorry Timothy), and the SUNY guy is better than the person from Howard.
Hmm...you don't appear to have read (or comprehended) any of my posts...

Here, I'll quote myself:
The question is, how predictive is scholastic achievement in choosing good physicians? And the answer is, not very. Many excellent physicians emerge with modest measurements on standard scoring systems, and many poor physicians post scores in the highest echelons. Once beyond establishment of baseline competence, superlative scholastic achievement is of little value in predicting professional success as a practicing physician.

Most of us go to the most prestigious institution of higher learning to which we can gain admission. That doesn't mean that the education is less adequate at other levels - it's usually not.
 
Womansurg:

I read your posts and was adding to the general disscusion. I just figured you would be most receptive of the problems that potentially come along with the numbers game. No harm meant, just giving my long winded perspective. I did not mean to come off aggresively.
 
Ah, my bad 🙂 .
 
Let me jump in here with my 2 cents! I couldn't keep reading the above crap so if anyone has made a similar comparison, my apologies for the redundancy.

One of my preceptors in our physical diagnosis course is a DO. He is knowledgeable and treats me with respect and patience. My other preceptor is an MD and he treats me with respect and patience. All of our patients so far like both of them and enjoy their interactions with each of the doctors.

What it boils down to is whether or not as a doctor you keep improving your knowledge base, pay attention to the details, and know how to work with and understand people.

To those of you who bash DO's you had better be careful. If you attend school or practice medicine in a state that accepts and welcomes it's DOs, you will at some time or other have a DO-bound classmate, DO colleague, or DO attending.
 
The mere fact that some DO dude barges in here and starts something is an invitation to being bashed.

Let's put aside all this nonsense about predictors of becoming a good doctor because if we continue to use this argument, you might as well say that any guy you see in the street can become a good doctor.

Let's also stamp the fact that DO students, in general, have lower application stats than the average medical student, after all how many times have pre-med advisors recommend osteopathic and naturopathic medicine to applicants with subpar MCAT scores.

In the end what we look for is the purpose of the argument itself, so cool DO whatever your handle is, you already have the answers to your MD/DO banter...

"DO is just as good as MD, while the general academia agrees the (on average) superiority of intellect MD students have (based on test scores, extracurriculars and undergrad performance), it matters on the individual's performance to become the best health care provider"

End of story.
 
"you might as well say that any guy you see in the street can become a good doctor"


I actually agree with that, you never know one's potential until you know and have worked with this person..😉
 
I still haven't heard how any of you DO bashers deal with having residents and attendings who are DO's...........do you hate them.......do you think they are bad doctors? what? i don't understand.

like i said earlier my allopathic institution has many DO attendings in all departments and lectures are also given to medical students by DO's. Do you guys mutter to each other that............"oh, that endocrinologist lecturing us today is just a DO he must not be very good."

anyone?

how do you people function in real world medicine in communities..........where inevitably a partner of yours or a boss of yours or an administrator of a department is going to be a DO?
 
Originally posted by CoolDOguy
the physician from Harvard is better (more knowledgeable, analytical, and astute) than the one from SUNY down state (sorry Timothy), and the SUNY guy is better than the person from Howard.

Oh, dude, really, no apologies are necessary. There's a reason for why schools like Harvard and Stanford turn out seemingly better physicians than lower schools.

And it's understandable. My opinion of the MCAT is that it's an objective measure of something, but no one seems to agree on what. The party-line coming out of most admissions offices in US medical schools is that the MCAT is a clear predictor of how well a given student will do on the USMLE. All medical schools are guilty of looking at the MCAT in one form or another, but some places, very plainly, give it greater weight. I see the MCAT as an objective measure of one's ability to scientifically assess a problem presented in the Biological or Physical Sciences within a limited period of time, on a given day, at a given moment in time. It doesn't mean that one's score of 34 (10V, 11B, 13P, O) on the August 1997 MCAT administration at Fordham Law School in New York City puts him at the top of the class whose average is 30 (trust me). And it doesn't even mean that this person will also score the same 34 on another day in another city.
 
In my opinion and personal experience, the MCAT is a predictor of reading comprehension and indurance. Medical school is all about reading comprehension and indurance. I would propose that the verbal section of the MCAT is an accurate predictor of medical school performance. Hopefully the USMLE step 1 will have shorter passages than the MCAT. At least the passages won't be about some obscure religious sect or nonsensical review of english literature.

I agree that there is a stratification in medical school education (both allopathic and osteopathic), but what it boils down to is how competent you are as a doctor. Do you listen to your patients; do you miss some key lab value that's not wnl; do you exhibit empathy and patience towards others? It all boils down to not killing a patient. Everything else (GPA, medical school, med school ranking, residency) is about making top dollar. So, you can have a competent DO from a good DO school with a strong COMLEX/USMLE score with a good allopathic residency that might make ok money, but may be a great physician because he knows he has a stigma and works twice as hard to prove these misconceptions wrong.

I really don't feel I'm in a much better situation because I don't go to a highly ranked school. So what if I have MD behind my name? I am pretty much stuck applying to less desirable residencies because I'm not in the top 10% of my class either, so in the end it's all about helping people - that's where I have to find my satisfaction. I will make ok money and that's good enough for me.

Ok, back to binge drinking - can you say CAGE anyone?
 
I think the MCAT (and the Step 1 as well) is a relatively useless predictor of how good a physician a person will become (and this is coming from somebody who did well enough on it to get into a good med school). What it gives the schools, though, is a way to compare applicants from different qualities of schools (as much as some of us would hate to admit it, a 3.5 GPA at Vanderbilt means more than a 4.0 GPA at Middle Tennessee State). I think that also gives you some of your GPA discrepancy. You have to look at each applicant on the whole to really get a picture of whether or not they should be accepted. Somebody may have a 3.2 GPA at Harvard + be an athlete, involved heavily in community service, come from a less-advantaged background etc etc v. a person who gets a 3.8 GPA at the Fashion Institute of Technology (FIT - it's a real school, believe it or not) but has an application otherwise devoid of any character. The 3.2 GPA may bring down the class average, but that person will still likely be a quality student. I think we don't give med schools enough credit in looking at the whole person - grades are their screener, because you need intelligent people and unfortunately grades are the only way a stranger can assess how intelligent you are - but there's plenty of people with similar scores to the posted averages who got rejected from med schools across the country because they didn't present themselves as a good candidate to be a physician. Everybody makes mistakes, and there's people who get admitted to med schools every year that probably shouldn't (and they often don't make it to graduation day), as well as people who probably should've made it, but for whatever reason don't.
 
Originally posted by Behcet
who gets a 3.8 GPA at the Fashion Institute of Technology (FIT - it's a real school, believe it or not)

Sure is. The Fashion Institute of Technology is part of the State University of New York (SUNY) system and is located on 7th Avenue (Fashion Avenue) and West 27th Street in Manhattan's Garment District. It was founded in 1944 and joined the SUNY around 1953, just three years after the system was founded. One of its most notable alumni is Calvin Klein.

The founder of FIT apparently stated in the 1940s, "What we need is an MIT for the fashion industry." 🙄

Anyway, the point of this? You wouldn't ever have a premed applicant from FIT because I believe it only offers associates degrees (read: community/junior college) and no premed courses.

Carry on ladies and gentlemen. 🙂
 
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