Let's Have the Truth, Kids.......

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Mr_Money

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Okay........let's all be honest now........we aren't sitting in front of an admission committee now so here goes:

Who is in this mainly for the money? As I'm sure you have intuited, I am. 🙂
 
You're a sucka! I can think of 10,000 better ways to earn a crapload of money than becoming a doctor...
 
Mr_Money said:
Okay........let's all be honest now........we aren't sitting in front of an admission committee now so here goes:

Who is in this mainly for the money? As I'm sure you have intuited, I am. 🙂

You knwo you could find another career that pays in the same range that doesnt take this kind of commitment and rigor.
 
study 7 years after university to become an IM an earn 150,000 when i can go to law school for 3 years after Univ. and earn that same amount with less work. Come on, very few people are in this because of the money, its just a bonus, 4 years of med school is enough to eliminate a lot of the people who are after the money. And a lot of other professions pay >100k if you study you butt off in Univ and then work hard.
 
Do you think I would be putting up with long hours and being paid as an indentured servant if I was in it for the money? Heck no!
 
Full credit to you if you're willing to endure medical school and postgraduate training for the money. I'm fairly sick of the die hard med school purists who seem to be the same ones who complain to the dean when you miss one of their PBL sessions...

Anyway I digress. When I was a young fresh medical student I used to joke all the time I was in it for the money, in fact I probably believed it. But now I just _love_ caring for patients, watching them improve, all that bullsh*t people spouted during interviews when noone actually knew anything about it. The money is 'acceptable'. I don't view myself as arrogant but I am quite confident I could make alot more bling bling if I was an investment banker or hardworking lawyer. I think I could be quite sucessful in any occupation. But as much as I love spending money, I actually find money itself quite boring. I honestly do not think there is a better job, nay, privelege in the world than being a doctor. At least for a while... I think I might move into politics when I hit 50 😉

Loving rant aside however, I wouldn't have chosen medicine if the pay was the average wage... or even double the average wage. At the time I choose medicine because (i) I had something to prove and medicine is the hardest profession to be accepted into (imo) (ii) The money was good (iii) respect.
 
cricketnmatt said:
Do you think I would be putting up with long hours and being paid as an indentured servant if I was in it for the money? Heck no!

Right.....so if you knew from the onset that you'd max. out at say $50k/year you'd still be a doctor? Whatever....... 🙄
 
EMDream said:
You knwo you could find another career that pays in the same range that doesnt take this kind of commitment and rigor.

Yeah.....but then I wouldn't have several others things which I currently have as a physician: prestige and power.

Peace!
 
Galaxian said:
You're a sucka! I can think of 10,000 better ways to earn a crapload of money than becoming a doctor...

10,000 eh............Why don't you enlighten me with say 2 or 3?

Thanks, pal.
 
Hedge funds- analysts in their 1st year make at least $300K

Private equity

Bond trading

Friends from college in these fields are making 7 figures/year in their early 30's. It's crazy to go shopping for lofts on SoHo or townhouses in Gramercy Park with them. Will I catch up as an MD? It's possible one day, but w/out the 10 year head start.

Prestige and power:

What do you mean by prestige? The respect of intellegent people is earned, not won by throwing down an "MD".

Power is relative, not sure how much any physician negotiating health care plans has. Or academic tenure gives a person intellectual power, traded for a much lower salary.

Medicine has a lot of incredible aspects, but it's not the optimal way to chase prestige and power.
 
I choose medicine for the security as well as the money. I truly do enjoy medicine...I also enjoy DJ'ing in clubs but that wont put food on the table for a lifetime.

Become a physician and your security and comfort is more or less assured for the rest of your life. Your income wil be in the top 3% of society. There are very few, if any, other fields with such security.

You can make 7 figures in your thirties as a securities analyst and get fired the next day when the market bottoms out. That's cool, but not my personal preference in the long haul.

Ligament
 
We'll see how prestigious you feel when your finger is up somone's butt doing a rectal exam, when you are being coughed on by a patient with lots of sputum, when you are being cursed out by a ER patient/psych patient/ pretty much a patient on any service might get angry and talk to you like you are nothing more than dirt...hmmm...I can think of a lot of jobs that get more prestige than I feel when I'm in these situations.

And power...you'll learn quickly that if you play the power card on nurses these days, you'll soon learn who really has the power in the hospital. Patients will also often remind you that they are the boss - gone are the days when patients agreed with whatever plan the doc presented them - these days patients want full involvement in their medical care and generally think of you like they think of their mechanic or plumber - I'm paying you good money to take care of this problem for me, and if I don't like you or your plan, I'll take my business elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong - I actually am one of the residents who is very happy with my job and really like what I'm doing almost every day. But, maybe I'm so happy with it because I didn't go into it expecting much prestige or power. The job security, as noted above, is very nice though. And its' kinda fun to interact with different people every day and get to know their most intimate problems and sometimes find a way to fix them. I hope you are kidding Mr.Money, because otherwise you'll be very dissapointed with medicine these days. The sacrifices to get there (cost of med school, time in residency training), are becoming almost greater than the rewards, so if you don't really like medicine or taking care of patients, you'd better find another carrer now.
 
fourthyear said:
We'll see how prestigious you feel when your finger is up somone's butt doing a rectal exam, when you are being coughed on by a patient with lots of sputum, when you are being cursed out by a ER patient/psych patient/ pretty much a patient on any service might get angry and talk to you like you are nothing more than dirt...hmmm...I can think of a lot of jobs that get more prestige than I feel when I'm in these situations.

And power...you'll learn quickly that if you play the power card on nurses these days, you'll soon learn who really has the power in the hospital. Patients will also often remind you that they are the boss - gone are the days when patients agreed with whatever plan the doc presented them - these days patients want full involvement in their medical care and generally think of you like they think of their mechanic or plumber - I'm paying you good money to take care of this problem for me, and if I don't like you or your plan, I'll take my business elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong - I actually am one of the residents who is very happy with my job and really like what I'm doing almost every day. But, maybe I'm so happy with it because I didn't go into it expecting much prestige or power. The job security, as noted above, is very nice though. And its' kinda fun to interact with different people every day and get to know their most intimate problems and sometimes find a way to fix them. I hope you are kidding Mr.Money, because otherwise you'll be very dissapointed with medicine these days. The sacrifices to get there (cost of med school, time in residency training), are becoming almost greater than the rewards, so if you don't really like medicine or taking care of patients, you'd better find another carrer now.


Been there, done that, son. I'm out and making the big bucks now, so I'm finally reaping the rewards of my hard labor. Being an anesthesiologist, I've pretty much avoided all the aforementioned crap. I hated it as a medical student/intern and took steps to assure I would never have to do it again. Patients? I can be nice to anyone for five minutes!
 
That's true Mr. Money. As an anesthesiologist you do avoid all of the crap; however, the crap is around you, so you still have to live in it. This guy has a good question; just look at all the fields that are difficult to get into nowdays and there is your answer. Every specialty has its faults, but general medicine is downright ugly. I love it when the medicine attending tells me how hard the anesthesiologists have to work (70-80 hrs/wk) all the while he himself is working close to 90. And he gets paid peanuts for it. Most of the anesthesiologists I know in private practice work 50-60 hours/wk. This just goes to show that ignorance is rampant even among highly skilled and gifted people. I guess it makes them feel good about themselves. I even had this ICU doc (medicine) tell me that he would not consider anesthesia because of the hours (can they be any more stupid). And I am an intern who is going into anesthesia; I have already made up my mind. Its not going to change to internal medicine. Mysery loves company. To answer your question: yes, i chose money, lifestyle, and my family over healing the fu**ing ghetto population. I might hate my life as an intern right now, but I will be happy 1 year down the road.
 
I'm definitely not in it for the money, if I was I would've become a dentist. Less schooling, better hours, and better quality of life. I'm in it to make a difference as cheesy as it sounds.
 
Mr_Money said:
Yeah.....but then I wouldn't have several others things which I currently have as a physician: prestige and power.

Peace!

It's people that are in it for prestige money and power that really scare me.
 
EMDream said:
It's people that are in it for prestige money and power that really scare me.

Where are you in your training? Although you find it abhorrent, people in it for the prestige, money, and power have to work hard to get it, and, despite all the bootlicking and brown-nosing, it is difficult (but not impossible) to work that hard, and not become good at what you are doing, while moving up the ladder.

If people that are in it for abstracts (more or less) like prestige, money, and power "really scare [you]", you haven't seen man's physical inhumanity to man. (Or, alternately, if you have seen how people can abuse, maim, and kill each other, and, still, "prestige, money, and power" "really" scare you, well, I find that to be rather chilling.)
 
Apollyon said:
Where are you in your training? Although you find it abhorrent, people in it for the prestige, money, and power have to work hard to get it, and, despite all the bootlicking and brown-nosing, it is difficult (but not impossible) to work that hard, and not become good at what you are doing, while moving up the ladder.

While I agree that what most of these doctors do isnt nearly as bad as the crimes you mentioned, it is that TYPE of doctor that I would generally venture causes the most problems not only within the medical community, but to patients as well.

There was an article a while back about two cardiologists in Cali (from nytimes) who would recommend surgeries they didnt need simply to collect, and then they would defraud medicare for even more money. A good narrative of this is Complications by Atul Gawande (though the case described isnt as bad as what those cardiologists did).

Im not trying to say that money, prestige, etc shouldnt be a consideration, but for people who are almost entirely motivated by those factors, well they end up hurting a lot more people than just themselves.
 
"I went into the medicine for the same four reasons everyone else did: chicks, money, power, and chicks"

-Dr. Cox
 
Gleevec said:
Im not trying to say that money, prestige, etc shouldnt be a consideration, but for people who are almost entirely motivated by those factors, well they end up hurting a lot more people than just themselves.

Wow! What an inane overgeneralization. I can only surmise that you are a medical student given the idiocy of this statement. Trust me, I am at the top of my game, have the OR staff CONSTANTLY ask me to provide anesthesia for themselves or their family members (one of the highest forms of compliments), and NEVER end up "hurting more people than myself". Get a grip, man! 😡
 
Lonestar said:
To answer your question: yes, i chose money, lifestyle, and my family over healing the fu**ing ghetto population. I might hate my life as an intern right now, but I will be happy 1 year down the road.


Fantastic post buddy! Hang in there and 4 years from now, your life will be INFINITELY better. You've got the right attitude. 👍
 
Mr_Money said:
Yeah.....but then I wouldn't have several others things which I currently have as a physician: prestige and power.

Peace!


You pass gas for a living :laugh: Good Lord, get over yourself. You're two weeks out of residency and obviously slipping a little of the Versed under the table to yourself. Yeah, that's what the rest of the docs think about you guys, "prestige and power". If you just finished anesth, then you got into it when the fill rates were hanging around 50%. Congrats on your "prestige and power" and overpaid specialty.

You're most likely similar to most of the anesth guys who show up at a code, intubate as fast as you can, then run away very quickly even when there is a lowly intern trying to run their first code solo. Yeah, prestige and power. :meanie:
 
Mr_Money said:
Wow! What an inane overgeneralization. I can only surmise that you are a medical student given the idiocy of this statement. Trust me, I am at the top of my game, have the OR staff CONSTANTLY ask me to provide anesthesia for themselves or their family members (one of the highest forms of compliments), and NEVER end up "hurting more people than myself". Get a grip, man! 😡

Or you have an overinflated opinion of yourself that is completely divorced from reality.

And you lack basic reading comprehension skills to boot :laugh:

I never said those that were in it for money automatically would hurt patients, but if you look at a lot of the situations in which gross malpractice has occurred, it is because doctors were too busy trying to rake in the dough to give a crap about patients. So while that motive doesnt automatically result in patients being hurt, if you are familiar with even a few of the more egregious cases (which I mentioned in my above post which you failed to comprehend), you will realize that moneygrubbers caused the problem.

But seriously, go back, and since you obviously don't read very well, reread my post more slowly. Get over yourself, its the surgeons doing the work anyway...

Also, have fun with the nurse anesthesiologists Mr. Money, or should I just say, "gas"? :laugh: :laugh:
 
Newdoc2002 said:
You pass gas for a living :laugh: Good Lord, get over yourself. You're two weeks out of residency and obviously slipping a little of the Versed under the table to yourself. Yeah, that's what the rest of the docs think about you guys, "prestige and power". If you just finished anesth, then you got into it when the fill rates were hanging around 50%. Congrats on your "prestige and power" and overpaid specialty.

You're most likely similar to most of the anesth guys who show up at a code, intubate as fast as you can, then run away very quickly even when there is a lowly intern trying to run their first code solo. Yeah, prestige and power. :meanie:


Jealousy rears its ugly head once again 😱
 
If the proverbial swinging of penises is over then I would like to state the benefits of medicine:
1.) It's cool. Pushing paper for a living sucks.
2.) Job security. You can be a complete ****** and still have a job somewhere.
3.) Location. Doctors have a lot more freedom in getting to choose where they live. Of course....it can be hard to relocate a practice. Ehhh.
4.) "Higher" profession. Say what you want....but wanting to help people feel better IS noble.
 
Newdoc2002 said:
You pass gas for a living :laugh: Good Lord, get over yourself.

No kidding. The anesthesiologists I have worked with thus far have been a 100% cool group of people. Until now....

Surgeon: "Mr. Money, would you mind excercising some of your power and give the table a little more Trendelenberg"?
 
Mr_Money said:
I can only surmise that you are a medical student given the idiocy of this statement.

I can only surmise that you are a troll based on how much of a tool you appear to be.
 
Newdoc2002 said:
You pass gas for a living :laugh: Good Lord, get over yourself. You're two weeks out of residency and obviously slipping a little of the Versed under the table to yourself. Yeah, that's what the rest of the docs think about you guys, "prestige and power". If you just finished anesth, then you got into it when the fill rates were hanging around 50%. Congrats on your "prestige and power" and overpaid specialty.

You're most likely similar to most of the anesth guys who show up at a code, intubate as fast as you can, then run away very quickly even when there is a lowly intern trying to run their first code solo. Yeah, prestige and power. :meanie:

Are you an unhappy and under appreciated gen surg resident?
 
Spacedman said:
ok, mr money. whip it out. how much does an attending anesth make these days? also, why gas, and not, say, derm? :idea:

A new grad can expect to make $200-$300k to start. Obviously all benefits and malpractice are paid for in 99.9% of these positions as well. In so far as someone with experience, the skies the limit. There are several pain management physicians I know who make in excess of a mil a year. Why not derm? I personally find it very boring and probably could never have gotten a residency anyway.
 
So you finished residency, found a job, and spend your free time describing your salary on message boards?

What a sweet life- we residents can only dream.
 
knowing the **** and mad hours my friends have had to go through in their jobs to avoid getting canned, logging hours ... i never thought med school or residency was ever nearly as tough. i'm coddled in the predictability of my "training" while they are running with backstabbing sharks and opportunists in law and i-banking worrying about their next review or client. sure, they're making mad bank and will easily foot the bill for now without batting an eyelash when we go out, but there's a security i've had from day one of med school that i'll be set, pull in a decent 300-400k for my 50 hours of work, and never have to worry about ****. people, that's priceless. just another year of driving my crappy car and all that talk of opportunity costs can suck it. my only dilemma now is ..... g35, s4, or m3?
 
Havarti666 said:
No kidding. The anesthesiologists I have worked with thus far have been a 100% cool group of people. Until now....

Surgeon: "Mr. Money, would you mind excercising some of your power and give the table a little more Trendelenberg"?

Haaaaaaaahahahahahah.. if I heard a surgeon say that, I'd die laughing.

Trendelenberg power!!!! *Table buzzes as it slopes*

Personally, I didn't choose medicine -for- the money, because I'm not the type of person who can overlook unhappiness in his life so long as the dollars are rolling in. If I were to have chosen a profession soley for its monetary benefits, I've no doubt that I would end up miserable. I enjoy working with people, I enjoy having the opportunity to influence others' lives (for the better, I hope), and I love science. Besides, daddy was a doctor, too. 😉

However, I really hope you all aren't above admitting that it's simply not practical to claim you'd go into a medical career if it were paying $50,000. For the amount of work that some (or rather all) specialties require, it simply isn't feasible (and I'm not talking about the few people who have $100M and choose to continue working for the sheer philanthropy of it, and there are several at our hospital).

Medicine is a profession, and is a way to make a living. Much as a mechanic learns of the inner-workings of automobiles and how to repair them, physicians learn how to manage the human body. If you asked the average mechanic if he chose his job to help improve the world of automobiles, he'd look at you like you were a lunatic.

Medicine is a noble profession in that we have the opportunity to (hopefully) help improve quality of life for other people after dedicating years of hard work toward achieving the status of "Doctor," but at the end of the day, it's still a job, and it's still a source of livelihood. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that one of the factors in choosing medicine was money, because for the amount of time and effort it takes, there had better be some. On the flip-side, for someone like me, for all the work and endless time medicine takes from one's life, no amount of money could in and of itself make it worthwhile.

My feeling as far as Mr. Money goes is that he could use a course in humility. 😀

There's nothing wrong with being good at what you do. I'd sincerely hope that if you're in-charge of the lives of others, you -are- good at what you do, but there's really no reason to flaunt it. Honestly, what's the point in acting as if you're too good for the rest of humanity? We're all on the same playing-field here, and no one is 'better' than anyone else. Having been given the opportunity to serve as a physician doesn't make one 'higher' than anyone else; maybe you think it does, though. I hope not. Being respectful toward others and actually meaning it (e.g., not just "I can be nice to anyone for five minutes!") is something the majority of this planet's populus could stand trying out. Trust me, there are enough douche-bags walking around that losing one won't lend a crippling blow to the planet's state of dickitry. It might make you a better and happier person, though. Who knows.

We chose to pursue medicine... others chose a differen't path.
*shrug* At the end of it all, what does it matter? We're all going to die, and then that Viper sitting in your ex-driveway won't mean much. :luck:
 
Hmmm... Let's see I have a friend who works in business and is making 100K a year with a 4 year degree, and his company is paying for him to get his Master's when as he wants, plus gets to travel.

I just think there is more to life than money, prestige and power.
 
Lonestar said:
To answer your question: yes, i chose money, lifestyle, and my family over healing the fu**ing ghetto population.

🙁

You don't deserve the title of physician. Really.
 
I'd like offer an honest opinion about money and medicine, but hopefully with a bit more humility than Mr_Money. Yes, I did choose medicine because it offers a secure career with one of the best salary potentials of any common profession (i.e., vs. those lucky [or devilishy smart?] businesspeople who are bazillionaires). But, I also would not have chosen it if I didn't care about being altruistic. It's obviously *****ic to train for such a long time to help people and hate it the whole while.

Nevertheless, I could've become a nurse and accomplished very similar altruistic goals. Most of us would probably agree, though, that the challenge of medicine is greater and also enticed us to the field. And, I suspect, many would agree that the money in medicine is a fair trade for that challenge. Thus, it is a compelling interest in one's choice of the profession, albeit an interest interconnected to other interests and not a sole objective in itself. I hope that makes sense.

As far as the difficulty of getting into the field, it certainly doesn't rival veterinary medicine which is more competitive in terms of school admissions, but it pays far less than human medicine (more types of critters to know about, too! 😉). I would also make an educated bet that the avg salary for attorneys is less than that for physicians (minus law firm partners who rake it in - although many partners in physician groups make comparable salaries). Anyhow, these comparisons are kinda silly since they're very different professions.

My brother-in-law is a nurse anesthetist in a group where all the anesthetists do every single case and the only real responsibility of the ologists (i.e., anesthesiologists) is to place OB epidurals. They make lots more dough than my brother-in-law ever will because they take what's leftover after paying their anesthetists. Don't get me wrong, these docs are generally nice people according my bro-in-law and sis. But, my question for Mr_Money is, if it's all about the money for you, why not be a sly snake and join such a group where you don't even do any cases? I'm sure you're aware of such practice arrangements. Sounds to me like you wouldn't even have to deal with people for even five minutes, then. 🙂 I don't fault you much for your feelings about money and medicine, though. I say, at least you didn't pick a patient-centered specialty, grow to despise it, and yet continue to practice and care less-than optimally for the patients (such docs could be the subject of another thread, I imagine).
 
Please don't feed the trolls folks.
 
I was really idealistic and altruistic when I came in. Now, I am still very idealistic, but after all the medical school bull$#!t I am definately expecting some serious, unapologetic remuneration.
 
Carb Addict said:
But, my question for Mr_Money is, if it's all about the money for you, why not be a sly snake and join such a group where you don't even do any cases? I'm sure you're aware of such practice arrangements. Sounds to me like you wouldn't even have to deal with people for even five minutes, then. 🙂 I don't fault you much for your feelings about money and medicine, though. I say, at least you didn't pick a patient-centered specialty, grow to despise it, and yet continue to practice and care less-than optimally for the patients (such docs could be the subject of another thread, I imagine).


I AM in such a practice. I personally handle the difficult and/or interesting cases. I do enjoy my 5 minute patient interactions. I learned something early in my medical career: namely that I didn't like spending all damn day seeing patients. Turns out, anesthesiology is perfect for someone like me! 😀
 
Honestly, money and more importantly the security of it played a big factor in my decision. It's true that there are many profession that requires less investment (time and money) than medicine with similar monetary compensation, but they don't guarantee a life-time income at that level the way medicine does.

With that said, it would be unfortunate if one decided to devote his life in medicine just because it pays well. For me, chance to translate my expertise into something meaningful and serve another human being is the main reason why I chose medicine.

However, if one day all the doctors were paid lowly amount, then I probably would not do medicine. This is not because I am in it for money, rather it's not a sound investment, and completely ignoring that is simply being irresponsible.
 
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