Let's talk prenup

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Exactly you are the type of women that I'm looking for. I'm planning to live as a resident the next few year, pay my debt, drive my Toyota for a few more years. Never live beyond my means. I don't think a Doctor should live in million dollars houses or send the kids to private schools or have a yacht or drive a Ferrari I would like for me an my family to travel the world, visit as many countries as we can. That it is what I want but we don't control everything , do we? Do I want to find the person to do all this with, of course. Can I make a mistake because I'm a human and think that the person that I have chosen is the right one? that is also true.

Don't knock private school as a blanket statement. It sometimes (not always) is the best educational option for kids.

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[Dr.LeoSpaceman]

I'm single and I'm not planning to marry at least for the next three years or maybe more. I most likely have not even met the person I will marry.

1) This being the case, why even waste time on thinking about this?

2) Are you sure you even want to get married? As in, get married because you've found someone with whom you want to be a partner in life? If not, then save yourself some hassle and don't do it.

 

[ThoracicGuy]

Smq123 , i never said an ironclad prenup, what i been asking is what is fair since it is obvious I have not been there

Have you looked into your future spouse's eyes to establish your dominance? That will be the first step.

 

[FutureInternist]

Or he.. equal opportunity gold diggers out there

 

[operaman]

You’ve already avoided the biggest hit - docs who marry before or during training will in many states find their MD and license considered a marital asset. This and its earning potential will then have to be divided along with all the other community assets. So you’ve dodged at least one big bullet!

Personally I think prenup makes sense in your situation, but you’ll have to make it fair. Usually this means hiring an attorney for you and one for your fiance, and then working through them to figure out something fair and reasonable. Typically this can protect you from someone divorcing you after 1-2 years and trying to take half of your assets, but 5+ years with kids and you’re going to take a big hit regardless. Obviously future children can’t sign the prenup so their support will have to be adjudicated later. Typically there are sliding scales for years of marriage and other stipulations for various situations such as if the spouse stops working, but those all need to be fair enough to both parties to hold up in court. I’ve known a number of people who did this and the key seems to have been the dual attorneys and making sure everything was done fairly. A good prenup should also let the less monied spouse feel secure in their own financial future as well.

Basically you’re doing the same division of assets you’d do in a divorce, but you’re doing it in advance when you both still like each other. Best case you save some assets if the marriage ends super early, but if you stay together a long time and then badness goes down, you’re probably getting hosed either way.

 

[perita]

You’ve already avoided the biggest hit - docs who marry before or during training will in many states find their MD and license considered a marital asset. This and its earning potential will then have to be divided along with all the other community assets. So you’ve dodged at least one big bullet!

Personally I think prenup makes sense in your situation, but you’ll have to make it fair. Usually this means hiring an attorney for you and one for your fiance, and then working through them to figure out something fair and reasonable. Typically this can protect you from someone divorcing you after 1-2 years and trying to take half of your assets, but 5+ years with kids and you’re going to take a big hit regardless. Obviously future children can’t sign the prenup so their support will have to be adjudicated later. Typically there are sliding scales for years of marriage and other stipulations for various situations such as if the spouse stops working, but those all need to be fair enough to both parties to hold up in court. I’ve known a number of people who did this and the key seems to have been the dual attorneys and making sure everything was done fairly. A good prenup should also let the less monied spouse feel secure in their own financial future as well.

Basically you’re doing the same division of assets you’d do in a divorce, but you’re doing it in advance when you both still like each other. Best case you save some assets if the marriage ends super early, but if you stay together a long time and then badness goes down, you’re probably getting hosed either way.

Thanks operaman , one of the few people here that finally gives a response that makes sense

 

[operaman]

Thanks operaman , one of the few people here that finally gives a response that makes sense

I’ll add that my friends who have done it right said it was some of the best premarital counseling they ever did. It really forces you to disclose your finances and seriously discuss a lot of future situations and put actual dollar values on your choices. I do know other people where talk of prenup broke off the engagement, so like anything else there’s risk. But for it to work well, both partners need strong legal representation and the ability to have some hard conversations and make some tough decisions. It won’t be cheap either - paying dual attorney fees is pricey - but might be worth it to you.

Expect any agreement that passes muster to basically trend toward a 50-50 split as enough years go by.

 

[Crayola227]

You’ve already avoided the biggest hit - docs who marry before or during training will in many states find their MD and license considered a marital asset. This and its earning potential will then have to be divided along with all the other community assets. So you’ve dodged at least one big bullet!

Personally I think prenup makes sense in your situation, but you’ll have to make it fair. Usually this means hiring an attorney for you and one for your fiance, and then working through them to figure out something fair and reasonable. Typically this can protect you from someone divorcing you after 1-2 years and trying to take half of your assets, but 5+ years with kids and you’re going to take a big hit regardless. Obviously future children can’t sign the prenup so their support will have to be adjudicated later. Typically there are sliding scales for years of marriage and other stipulations for various situations such as if the spouse stops working, but those all need to be fair enough to both parties to hold up in court. I’ve known a number of people who did this and the key seems to have been the dual attorneys and making sure everything was done fairly. A good prenup should also let the less monied spouse feel secure in their own financial future as well.

Basically you’re doing the same division of assets you’d do in a divorce, but you’re doing it in advance when you both still like each other. Best case you save some assets if the marriage ends super early, but if you stay together a long time and then badness goes down, you’re probably getting hosed either way.

Very reasoned post.

I would point out as well, there is a thinking about how retirement benefits are split and how the dollars flow in a marriage.

One idea is that, the other spouse's income/support/splitting of basic bills/shared costs with kids making the whole set up cheaper per person in the household/childcare, all adds to the family's finances, and also allows the greater earning spouse to contribute MORE to investments and retirement than arguably they may have otherwise been able to make. Now, someone can argue that with a cardiologist's salary the person in question could have afforded it all and on their own and it never would have affected their ability to save or invest.

But in any case there are reasons when one spouse works and the other doesn't, that they are entitled to some retirement benefits.

The idea is that, you made a contract with each other to share these things, and that reasonably affects decisions made by both parties. And in the case of someone who stayed home with the kids and supported the other person's career (when that is what happens), they had an expectation that they didn't need to be working and saving for their own retirement, as they provided support and will share in the retirement. Especially if the other spouse was working some of the time or had lower earnings but can show contribution to the household, even if it was less and not to retirement, again, you can argue that is where their otherwise retirement money went.

This is only relevant to what you are saying about retirement.

Many people are not aware, that the above rationale is why our own government, in its great benevolence, since it loves to dole out high amounts of social security monies to people who have worked and are owed it based on their working record, will allow ex spouses to claim benefits based on the other spouse's record (this is true under some conditions and not others, and does not affect the other person's payout).

In any case, you point out a couple things about fairness, like the approach with 2 lawyers and a pre-nup.

Part of that, or the other strategy I discussed was learning the laws about assets and divorce and marriage and planning accordingly, is to consider how to set up retirement plans. Contributions made in the other spouse's name can be beneficial here. It's possible while married to set things up for your other spouse's future (when you still like each other) that can allow you to effectively pay ahead rather than out the back end. If you invest for your spouse for 10 or 20 years and the money can be followed showing this, depending on what those accounts look like, this can obviate the need as far as courts are concerned about alimony or some assets being split. Obviously lots of details here and will vary greatly based on legal particulars.

It depends on your state, but some states order alimony on a basis of sorta, how much does this other spouse still need support and moving forward into retirement, accounting for the fact that this marriage may have hindered their saving. So if you've saved for them and established a reasonable pension for them, you may have to pay less or even be off the hook depending.

Pick your spouse well, take care of them (before the marriage with pre-nup and lawyers if you wish, or after the fact with lawyers) and some of this is not as big of an issue.

The thing is, you can make financial plans and estates and investments that work for you as a COUPLE, and also build contingencies in case of divorce or death where it still works for both parties.

If your approach is more about, how do we make this FAIR and care for us both no matter what happens to/with either of us, I think that can go over a lot better when you are arranging finances with someone. How do we set up a joint or individual retirement accounts or other investments or let's do the house in a way the poorer spouse still has a house, might come off better than, I made all this money and I want to make sure I make off with it in case you screw me.

It's about, how are we splitting things, rather than an approach of well I made all this money how do I keep it from you.

But at some point it seems ridiculous to even get married.

You can have kids with someone and not even get legally married. You can still split bills, assets, have power of attorney if one of you is hurt, be beneficiaries on each other's accounts, take the other's last name (name change).

Ultimately being in a relationship or a marriage is all about a choice to be with someone, it's not about paper or money. Those things don't keep people together in the end. It's a daily choice.

As others point out, values matter a lot here. Some people the legal recognition aspect matters a lot, and there are benefits to marriage that are financial and not otherwise attainable.

 

[operaman]

Very reasoned post.

I would point out as well, there is a thinking about how retirement benefits are split and how the dollars flow in a marriage.

One idea is that, the other spouse's income/support/splitting of basic bills/shared costs with kids making the whole set up cheaper per person in the household/childcare, all adds to the family's finances, and also allows the greater earning spouse to contribute MORE to investments and retirement than arguably they may have otherwise been able to make. Now, someone can argue that with a cardiologist's salary the person in question could have afforded it all and on their own and it never would have affected their ability to save or invest.

But in any case there are reasons when one spouse works and the other doesn't, that they are entitled to some retirement benefits.

The idea is that, you made a contract with each other to share these things, and that reasonably affects decisions made by both parties. And in the case of someone who stayed home with the kids and supported the other person's career (when that is what happens), they had an expectation that they didn't need to be working and saving for their own retirement, as they provided support and will share in the retirement. Especially if the other spouse was working some of the time or had lower earnings but can show contribution to the household, even if it was less and not to retirement, again, you can argue that is where their otherwise retirement money went.

This is only relevant to what you are saying about retirement.

Many people are not aware, that the above rationale is why our own government, in its great benevolence, since it loves to dole out high amounts of social security monies to people who have worked and are owed it based on their working record, will allow ex spouses to claim benefits based on the other spouse's record (this is true under some conditions and not others, and does not affect the other person's payout).

In any case, you point out a couple things about fairness, like the approach with 2 lawyers and a pre-nup.

Part of that, or the other strategy I discussed was learning the laws about assets and divorce and marriage and planning accordingly, is to consider how to set up retirement plans. Contributions made in the other spouse's name can be beneficial here. It's possible while married to set things up for your other spouse's future (when you still like each other) that can allow you to effectively pay ahead rather than out the back end. If you invest for your spouse for 10 or 20 years and the money can be followed showing this, depending on what those accounts look like, this can obviate the need as far as courts are concerned about alimony or some assets being split. Obviously lots of details here and will vary greatly based on legal particulars.

It depends on your state, but some states order alimony on a basis of sorta, how much does this other spouse still need support and moving forward into retirement, accounting for the fact that this marriage may have hindered their saving. So if you've saved for them and established a reasonable pension for them, you may have to pay less or even be off the hook depending.

Pick your spouse well, take care of them (before the marriage with pre-nup and lawyers if you wish, or after the fact with lawyers) and some of this is not as big of an issue.

The thing is, you can make financial plans and estates and investments that work for you as a COUPLE, and also build contingencies in case of divorce or death where it still works for both parties.

If your approach is more about, how do we make this FAIR and care for us both no matter what happens to/with either of us, I think that can go over a lot better when you are arranging finances with someone. How do we set up a joint or individual retirement accounts or other investments or let's do the house in a way the poorer spouse still has a house, might come off better than, I made all this money and I want to make sure I make off with it in case you screw me.

It's about, how are we splitting things, rather than an approach of well I made all this money how do I keep it from you.

But at some point it seems ridiculous to even get married.

You can have kids with someone and not even get legally married. You can still split bills, assets, have power of attorney if one of you is hurt, be beneficiaries on each other's accounts, take the other's last name (name change).

Ultimately being in a relationship or a marriage is all about a choice to be with someone, it's not about paper or money. Those things don't keep people together in the end. It's a daily choice.

As others point out, values matter a lot here. Some people the legal recognition aspect matters a lot, and there are benefits to marriage that are financial and not otherwise attainable.

Agree 100%

Fully funding separate retirement accounts is something I’ve seen done both as part of a prenup as a well as part of a financial strategy. Definitely the kind of thing that can be worked into a very fair prenup that protects both sides, especially since OP is particularly concerned about protecting the nest egg. Seems like it would be a win win - if the marriage lasts that’s more saved; if it fails then he can keep his own savings and she keeps a sizeable enough amount to live and retire comfortably as well. It’s a much better plan than trying to hide assets.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Were you just going to hide that asset from your spouse until you retired and/or your parents died?

Trying to hide money in a divorce is often not looked favorably on by judges, and if it comes to light, it could really bite you. (Never, ever piss off your judge, especially in a non-jury case).

 

[mvenus929]

Thanks all for the answers. The premise here is that I did not know much about prenups. So I needed to have some ideas. As anonperson said , you have a pre marriage 401k and you stop contribute during your marriage, but it still growths during marriage, Does this immediately become a common asset? The end goal here is when I'm ready to retire I want to have enough money so I don't have to continue working . I'm not trying to hide asset that I gain during the marriage but something that I got before if this is something that can be achieve with a prenup like any money and interest acquired before married is not part of the marriage asset. Does it sounds reasonable ?

Trying that.

Yes, I guess what is reasonable if the marriage lets say for example, last only a couple of years because you find out the person is not what you though she was. I'm fine with reasonable but having to pay alimony for your whole life?

You can 100% set up a pre-nup that says any assets owned before marriage belong to each owner individually (along with whatever growth they have). I currently own a house and I'm not married--I would definitely ask for a prenup stating I get to keep the house (or the proceeds from sale/insurance payment) in the event of a divorce without payout. Depending on how much equity I have initially, I may stipulate something like $x each month is put into an account for future spouse during their time living in the home if this is our marital home too. Or otherwise ensure that my money is paying for the house, not his.

Tricky part comes if your spouse ends up being a gambler or something and takes money without your knowledge out of assets. But then the divorce settlement gets more complicated and you should hire yourself a forensic accountant.

Exactly you are the type of women that I'm looking for. I'm planning to live as a resident the next few year, pay my debt, drive my Toyota for a few more years. Never live beyond my means. I don't think a Doctor should live in million dollars houses or send the kids to private schools or have a yacht or drive a Ferrari I would like for me an my family to travel the world, visit as many countries as we can. That it is what I want but we don't control everything , do we? Do I want to find the person to do all this with, of course. Can I make a mistake because I'm a human and think that the person that I have chosen is the right one? that is also true.

Might I suggest talking about money before marriage? People with different money philosophies can work, but it's one of the sticking points of a lot of marriages and why many couples keep their finances separate. Part of the prenup discussion can include how you're going to manage finances after marriage--including debts, savings, spending, acquisition of assets, etc. If you find a spouse that has the same money values as you, even if you end up divorced it will probably be more 'fair' than someone who doesn't share your money values. But the only way to know that is to talk to her about it as you start to get serious. And have those hard discussions about how much debt you both have, how much you both make, how much you save, what savings you have at baseline.

 

[WildWing]

I listened to this podcast a while back - it went into some detail about prenups, particularly about the importance of having deep discussions about what money means to you and what it means for your partner, and how you want to use your money.

Ramit Sethi — Automating Finances, Negotiating Prenups ...YouTube · Tim Ferriss2 hours, 21 minutes, 18 secondsMay 21, 2019

These discussions will require you to be vulnerable and define what matters most to you.

 

[perita]

Thanks for the recent post from mvenus929 and wildwing, very informative. Just to add to the post, ana I did not know when I started this thread, there were some legislation just approve in July 2023 in the state I live in. What was approved is three brackets,
1-10 years of marriage up to 50 % off the length of marriage for alimony. If you are married for 4 years, you are only responsible for 2 years alimony.
10-20 up to 65%
21-30 up to 75%

It will also consider some factors like the the earning capacity ,education levels and employability for both parties.

 

[RonArtest]

marriage is for suckers. just don't get married. you can still have fun. this is a non-issue

 

[Splenda88]

if you are male physician, marriage is a bad deal for you. DO NOT DO IT.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

if you are male physician, marriage is a bad deal for you. DO NOT DO IT.

That's just awful advice

 

[Splenda88]

That's just awful advice

If one did not have a partner before becoming a physician, you need to be cautious because most women will see you as $$$. I have seen it multiple times already.

 

[LucidSplash]

If one did not have a partner before becoming a physician, you need to be cautious because most women will see you as $$$. I have seen it multiple times already.

I think it is overall a bad idea to demonize an entire gender. If anything, this is possible from any human. I know that men do not think that this also can happen to women, but it is also a well known phenomenon to women. Therefore I think we can realize that our shared experience is that this is a human nature issue.

We all need to be cautious in choosing partners and co-parents, regardless of gender.

Which brings us back to the logic of a prenup, regardless of gender.

I got divorced in the middle of medical school. Overall I do not recommend getting married at 21. But you live and learn. I personally do not plan to marry again, because I don’t see that it offers me any emotional or social benefits in our society as a woman as I am not having children. However if I did, I would have a prenup. I view this as a way I could protect someone I love while I still have overwhelmingly positive feelings about them (and hopefully visa versa) as well as myself. To guard against future enmity.

I think the mistake most people make is being overly idealistic. But also most people don’t bring up a prenup until the proposal is done and the wedding is already being planned. Then you feel stuck and don’t want to risk someone refusing. The topic should, like many things, be broached long before there’s a ring, as part of the compatibility assessment.

And we also need to collectively, as a society, better appreciate the value of a primary child caretaker, regardless of the gender. A lot of this thread views a stay at home, or part-time employed outside the home, parent, who takes on the majority of the mental load of making a household run, as a freeloader it seems.

I have often jokingly complained that I wish I had a wife at home. My married surgeon colleagues are often able to focus on entirely their careers because of the contribution of their spouses elsewhere. This allows them to be financially successful. The contribution of that other person may not be directly financial, but it absolutely is a financial boon in allowing that focus.

 

[Splenda88]

I think it is overall a bad idea to demonize an entire gender. If anything, this is possible from any human. I know that men do not think that this also can happen to women, but it is also a well known phenomenon to women. Therefore I think we can realize that our shared experience is that this is a human nature issue.

We all need to be cautious in choosing partners and co-parents, regardless of gender.

Which brings us back to the logic of a prenup, regardless of gender.

I am NOT demonizing an entire gender. I use the word MOST, which is the truth.

I am married. But I am not naive to understand that once you are in position of power and have money as male, you are a target to unscrupulous women. Our legal system system incentivizes that behavior. The stats are out there.

Marriage is a bad deal for any male physician who started dating after they become a physician unless they can find a high earning partner. A lot of these prenups don't stand a chance in court.

 

[LucidSplash]

I am NOT demonizing an entire gender. I use the word MOST, which is the truth.

I am married. But I am not naive to understand that once you are in position of power and have money as male, you are a target to unscrupulous women. Our legal system system incentivizes that behavior. The stats are out there.

Marriage is a bad deal for any male physician who started dating after they become a physician unless they can find a high earning partner. A lot of these prenups don't stand a chance in court.

Again, you are discounting that this also happens to women physicians with equal frequency. You have observer bias, partially because statistically male physicians tend to partner with women of equal education/earning potential less frequently than female physicians.

 

[Splenda88]

Again, you are discounting that this also happens to women physicians with equal frequency. You have observer bias, partially because statistically make physicians tend to partner with women of equal education/earning potential less frequently than female physicians.

Show me the stats. I find this statement hard to believe.

 

[RangerBob]

if you are male physician, marriage is a bad deal for you. DO NOT DO IT.

Statistically, getting married is by far the most likely decision to positively impact one’s quality of life.

As they say, better to have loved and lost them to have never loved at all.

 

[xffan624]

Show me the stats. I find this statement hard to believe.

Show yours first.

 

[LucidSplash]

Show me the stats. I find this statement hard to believe.

Provide stats for your assertion first. 🤷🏼‍♀️ Maybe some legal society has info on this but as far as I know we were both speaking from anecdotal experience.

I am part of numerous Facebook groups where female physicians seek advice and help from others in dealing with acrimonious divorces. Both from partners with equal education/financial contributions and those with partners who are stay at home or employed in less financially remunerative professions. Like your own experience/perspective with male physicians, it is truly reprehensible what some people will do in these situations. These situations typically have blame on all sides but there are some truly heinous humans (of all genders) out there.

 

[CoolDoc1729]

I have a prenup. I am an ER doc and my husband is a fireman. I met him my second year of residency. His parents are divorced. He is once divorced. His siblings have an average of 2 divorces each. I didn’t go into the marriage planning to divorce; but it seemed possible to happen, and I didn’t want to have to give him half of my entire life’s earnings if we divorced after say 3 years.

When I brought up the prenup I presented it like this. I hope we never use it and someday our grandkids throw it on the bonfire , BUT if things don’t work out I want it to be fair. He was not thrilled about the idea but we discussed terms. What we ended up with was that he would not get alimony; he would get 1/2 of assets accumulated after our marriage; and he would get a prorated share of our home equity (year by year, up to half the equity, fully vested after 3 years), as I was putting up our entire down payment but figured he would be fixing things all the time so he would deserve that.

10 years, four kids, 16 rental doors and an unclear number of backyard chickens later, things are going fine but I am still glad that we went through that process. It’s also good to have a full understanding of what you’re getting into financially as some people are more bothered by CC debt, IRS debt, etc than others.

 

[perita]

When I brought up the prenup I presented it like this. I hope we never use it and someday our grandkids throw it on the bonfire , BUT if things don’t work out I want it to be fair. He was not thrilled about the idea but we discussed terms. What we ended up with was that he would not get alimony; he would get 1/2 of assets accumulated after our marriage; and he would get a prorated share of our home equity (year by year, up to half the equity, fully vested after 3 years), as I was putting up our entire down payment but figured he would be fixing things all the time so he would deserve that.

Thanks CoolDoc1729, the type of personal advice of someone who has gone thru this experience. This is something that can be use for all of us that we are still on this process.

 

[dpmd]

start seeing another attractive guy from her own country and asked the dermatologist for a divorce. In addition the the alimony and child support their parent have gifted him a house that was value two million dollars. So he has to sell the house to give her a million. So she goes ahead an live her happy life with her lover and millions of dollars. Is this fair? If it is, so I totally whatever names that you want to attach to my. In addition , maybe was the wine, I never said that I will do any of this to a person who has spend decades on my side I was thinking more in the few beginning years of marriage.

The house was gift to both of them. Why would she not be entitled to her half of it just because the guy is mad at her. Maybe she started seeing the new guy because the dermatologist ignored her or was a dick to her. Maybe he constantly refused to do his part of household chores and she just got sick of not being appreciated. Perhaps he was the one who ended up being a different person than who she thought she married and that was why she sought love elsewhere.

 

[dieABRdie]

I've been single through my education and training. I worked full time in college as my parents didn't have the money to pay my way. It might have been nice to have a partner to support me through it all. But that didn't happen. Now that I've finally made it... you better believe I'll have a prenup when I get married. If someone thinks they should be entitled to what I've earned just because of a marriage; then they aren't the type of person I want to be with.

But remember... a prenup isn't for only one person. Its for BOTH parties. A completely one-sided prenup contract actually won't stand up in court. I'm pretty sure in contract law they call it having "consideration." i.e. "a promise for a promise," "quid pro quo" etc. If there is only benefit to one party... then the contract could be non-enforceable. And that means you're left with the state's marriage laws to fall back on. If the other party actually suffers a detriment from relying on the "contract"; you could be liable for further "reliance damages" by the doctrine of promissory estoppel. ( you can tell I've been reading about it...) If you try hiding or protecting things like you had mentioned, that might affect the validity of any prenuptial contract. They have some specific requirements compared to other contracts.

Just be honest with her. If she's a reasonable person then she will understand a doctor might not want to fight over the fruits of their life's labor. If you can't agree on these issues before you get married; you're not going to agree with them when you get a divorce.

 

[Arcan57]

If one did not have a partner before becoming a physician, you need to be cautious because most women will see you as $$$. I have seen it multiple times already.

It's weird that there's a whole class of men that offer nothing other than $$$ and then get weird/offended about attracting women that are just looking for $$$.

 

[Splenda88]

It's weird that there's a whole class of men that offer nothing other than $$$ and then get weird/offended about attracting women that are just looking for $$$.

I guess.