First of all, I'm not looking for legal advise I just want to educate myself. I have met recently with a financial planner and an CPA and notice that I sometimes have to ask them specific questions such as what about back door IRA or if I have a 1099 , can I take advantage of a Qualified Business Income? So I eventually going to see a lawyer but when I see him/her , I would like to have some more knowledge about this and that is the reason for this thread. A little bit about me, I'm 31 years old. I'm a cardiologist doing a HF fellowship which I will finish in June next year. I'm single and I'm not planning to marry at least for the next three years or maybe more. I most likely have not even met the person I will marry. So far, my thinking is to save the most money into a retirement account under my parents name to protect that money from a divorce. Any other ideas? I apologize for the ones that think that marriage is forever, I would also like that once I married it also will be but I'm not naïve and know that at least 50 % of marriages end up in divorce. I can not wrap my head around the idea that after 16 yeas of high education and efforts , I can make a single mistake and married the wrong person get divorce in a year and loose half of everything.
Let's talk prenup
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My guess is if the retirement account is in your parents name, that you can't get a tax deduction for it (if you want to do pre-tax contributions).
You can certainly gift them the money and they put it in a Roth Solo 401k with you as the beneficiary.
I'm sure what the tax simplifications are when they give that back to you (whether voluntarily or if/when they pass).
Ultimately I'd run any more complicated plans like that with a tax lawyer and accountant.
My general philosophy is keep it simple. Put your money in a retirement account in your name. Spend money on date night. If you get a divorce, odds are either your spouse has money as well and a pre-nup is sort of moot or they're a stay at home spouse who deserves half of what you have, seeing as they're the one raising the kids and all that.
No marriage should be a mistake. Put more care and attention into finding the right spouse than you spent on deciding whether to go to med school/what specialty to pursue, and then put at least as much energy into maintaining that relationship as you do your job, and not only will you likely stay married that way, but far happier.
You can certainly gift them the money and they put it in a Roth Solo 401k with you as the beneficiary.
I'm sure what the tax simplifications are when they give that back to you (whether voluntarily or if/when they pass).
Ultimately I'd run any more complicated plans like that with a tax lawyer and accountant.
My general philosophy is keep it simple. Put your money in a retirement account in your name. Spend money on date night. If you get a divorce, odds are either your spouse has money as well and a pre-nup is sort of moot or they're a stay at home spouse who deserves half of what you have, seeing as they're the one raising the kids and all that.
No marriage should be a mistake. Put more care and attention into finding the right spouse than you spent on deciding whether to go to med school/what specialty to pursue, and then put at least as much energy into maintaining that relationship as you do your job, and not only will you likely stay married that way, but far happier.
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… so what exactly is your question? Yes, if you are averse to losing some of your savings in a potential marriage, a prenup where you keep whatever you had before the marriage protects you. It is probably the safest way to ensure you get the outcome you are looking for. The main issue with a prenup isn't that any of the rest of us are going to judge you for that decision, as it's your money and your life and you should live how you want to live. But when it comes time to have this conversation with someone you get serious with, there isn't a way to spin this in a positive light. You are introducing a financial power imbalance into the marriage, whereby you will make out much better financially in a divorce. There are a number of rippling implications that more or less mean that when the inevitable hardships of marriage come up, it would be much easier for you to look for the exit while your spouse would be incentivized financially to tough it out. Again, no judgement... but that is going to be a non-starter for a fair number of prospective spouses, and their values are just as valid as yours. PS, the divorce rate is much later (<20%) if you're getting married past 30.
I am not sure how putting money in an account under your parents name is preferable because you still don't have control over the asset. Most obviously, there may be a tax implication when they give the money back to you or pass. But they could also presumably just change the beneficiary on the account--of course you wouldn't imagine your parents would do such a thing, but you also wouldn't be the first person who had a late falling out with a parent. There could be other family members who could contest your claim to the account if your parents pass. And I'm just not sure what going through these financial gymnastics does for you that a prenup doesn't.
I am not sure how putting money in an account under your parents name is preferable because you still don't have control over the asset. Most obviously, there may be a tax implication when they give the money back to you or pass. But they could also presumably just change the beneficiary on the account--of course you wouldn't imagine your parents would do such a thing, but you also wouldn't be the first person who had a late falling out with a parent. There could be other family members who could contest your claim to the account if your parents pass. And I'm just not sure what going through these financial gymnastics does for you that a prenup doesn't.
Thanks for your answer, I don't think marriage is a mistake the mistake is believing you are choosing the right person and you mistakenly are not. I'm trying to protect myself from myself doing this mistake. My guess is most of the people that get married don't think it will end up in divorce and they do. I don't know if you have been in the dating game lately , but I have put a lot of effort on it and it has been hard to find someone. In regards to kids and stay home mom, I don't think I could marry someone that will be a stay home mom and of course I understand the responsibilities that I will have once we have kids and I will put my best effort to maintain my marriage since that is the example that I have had from my parents but If you browse sdn there are cases here of people that are married in medical school and the spouse just said "Hey I don't want to be with you anymore but I won't give you a divorce so I can reap the benefits off you being a doctor".
I guess the question will be , what can you protect in a prenup
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Anything that you can get your future spouse to sign can be included in a prenup. This can include current assets/property, future assets, anticipated income, etc. Unlikely to get anyone to sign a "you'll get nothing and like it" prenup, but you can certainly write one.
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As @gutonc said, the challenge isn't writing an iron-clad prenup, any lawyer can do that. The challenge is finding someone who is spouse material who also thinks you are spouse material, and then explaining to them why they should sign an iron-clad prenup.
I will be just a little bit sappy. Marriage isn't just about love, it's about risk. A couple takes on that risk together because you think that together you're going to be happier and stronger than you would be separately. Of course sometimes that doesn't work out. But if you aren't willing to take a risk, then I'm not really sure you want to be married. Or at least I think you will find it very difficult to become married if you are hoping to shift a significant amount of the financial risk onto your prospective partner.
What just doesn't make any sense at all to me is this whole business about opening a retirement account in your parents' name. Not only is it probably a bad idea in the first place for the reasons highlighted above, but what exactly was your plan there? Were you just going to hide that asset from your spouse until you retired and/or your parents died? How did you envision that conversation going any better than being up front and asking for a prenup?
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Usually pre marriage assets are yours.
It gets tricky when you have a pre marriage 401k or taxable account and then contribute to it during the marriage. The assets become commingled and splitting it is very tricky.
The assets obtained during the marriage are what are at risk.
A pre nup is a negotiation. You can ask for anything but if it is not reasonable, there is a risk it could get thrown out at the time of divorce by a judge.
Retirement accounts have to be in your name. I guess you could make a taxable account under a parents ownership.
Ways to protect yourself:
Marry someone on an equal financial footing
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Be careful about utilizing your parents accounts to hide assets. Seek guidance from an elder law attorney or estate planner. If your parents end up in a nursing home many assets can be garnished to pay for their care. And there are clawback laws that look for distribution of assets that occurred in the last X (3-5) years.
Thanks all for the answers. The premise here is that I did not know much about prenups. So I needed to have some ideas. As anonperson said , you have a pre marriage 401k and you stop contribute during your marriage, but it still growths during marriage, Does this immediately become a common asset? The end goal here is when I'm ready to retire I want to have enough money so I don't have to continue working . I'm not trying to hide asset that I gain during the marriage but something that I got before if this is something that can be achieve with a prenup like any money and interest acquired before married is not part of the marriage asset. Does it sounds reasonable ?
Trying that.
Yes, I guess what is reasonable if the marriage lets say for example, last only a couple of years because you find out the person is not what you though she was. I'm fine with reasonable but having to pay alimony for your whole life?
It is legal to gift your parent certain amount of money, and if what does not make sense is the premise that my parents will somehow swindle the money , that is the least of my worries.
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If your marriage only lasts a few years you won't be paying lifetime alimony.
If you have kids, then you'll get nailed with child support without mercy.
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Yes it is legal to gift a certain amount to your parents, but when they gift it back it may become subject to taxes. Again, if you want to do this you need a lawyer who knows what they are doing.
Hiding a financial asset during marriage is a worse idea than being an adult and having an honest conversation with your spouse. And may not actually work the way you intended, which is why it is better to actually spell out your intentions in a prenup.
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I have lots to say, but the #1 thing is it is ridiculous to limit your pick of partner based on their income bracket.
Once upon a time, that was something I considered, and it didn't make anything better for me.
If I hadn't stopped considering that factor, and continued using other factors I now realize don't matter, I wouldn't be with my current partner the father of my child. Maybe there was someone out there as wonderful as he is with more money, but I can say that when they say there are things more important than money they aren't kidding.
As others have said, the best way to end up happy is to be mature yourself and pick the right person.
To me, this would be demonstrating an understanding that financial footing should take a backseat to so many other considerations.
Lastly, you can also choose not to get legally married. Again consult your tax people and lawyers about this. There are many ways to being unmarried can be work, but it depends on so many particulars. And also cohabitation/"common law marriage" laws in your state.
It is also difficult to plan this ahead of time without knowing all states of residence and your partner in question.
Putting assets in your parents' name is about one of the worst ideas I've seen so far, for so many reasons. It might work in some very particular ways, but I would be so careful and again, need a great lawyer.
One idea I haven't seen kicked around, is the use of an estate trust. This can do a lot of great things, but again, need excellent planning, and after marriage have to consider additional assets and ownership.
I don't think the pre-nup is nearly as useful as, before marriage and after marriage, working with a very knowledgeable attorney. I talked to an attorney, and they thought this was the better way to keep assets divided up. You just have to know the laws and how courts divide property and do things accordingly. Pre nups try to see into the future and can't account for everything. Dealing with property before marriage and after the fact before acquiring on an individual basis is more tedious but more likely to get you the results you want.
Once upon a time, that was something I considered, and it didn't make anything better for me.
If I hadn't stopped considering that factor, and continued using other factors I now realize don't matter, I wouldn't be with my current partner the father of my child. Maybe there was someone out there as wonderful as he is with more money, but I can say that when they say there are things more important than money they aren't kidding.
As others have said, the best way to end up happy is to be mature yourself and pick the right person.
To me, this would be demonstrating an understanding that financial footing should take a backseat to so many other considerations.
Lastly, you can also choose not to get legally married. Again consult your tax people and lawyers about this. There are many ways to being unmarried can be work, but it depends on so many particulars. And also cohabitation/"common law marriage" laws in your state.
It is also difficult to plan this ahead of time without knowing all states of residence and your partner in question.
Putting assets in your parents' name is about one of the worst ideas I've seen so far, for so many reasons. It might work in some very particular ways, but I would be so careful and again, need a great lawyer.
One idea I haven't seen kicked around, is the use of an estate trust. This can do a lot of great things, but again, need excellent planning, and after marriage have to consider additional assets and ownership.
I don't think the pre-nup is nearly as useful as, before marriage and after marriage, working with a very knowledgeable attorney. I talked to an attorney, and they thought this was the better way to keep assets divided up. You just have to know the laws and how courts divide property and do things accordingly. Pre nups try to see into the future and can't account for everything. Dealing with property before marriage and after the fact before acquiring on an individual basis is more tedious but more likely to get you the results you want.
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In my experience, if they get angry or upset it usually means that they weren’t the right person to begin with and or with a person for money. I know this from the people I used to work in finance with. Most who had them actually had more stable marriages.
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I don't think this is accurate in the least.
I can see how many devoted partners would take mention of a prenup as a huge insult/affront to their love/dedication. Unless you're a superstar or have children from a prior relationship, mentioning a prenup is going to very a wide variety of mostly negative reactions/emotions. Many/most will feel their love is critically questioned, or they'll feel feel betrayed/misunderstood to the core.
I certainly would be--it would have been completely out of character for my wife to have brought up something like that. It would have completely changed who I thought she was.
For two very rational/objective people who analyze everything logically (to the extreme), perhaps the conversation goes ok. But most humans are not logical/rational, and we often pick partners with different personalities than ourselves.
There is a reason all major world faiths tell us to pursue love/trust/friendship and to not dwell too much on money. Because for the bulk of humankind, once we have our basic needs met, the biggest driver of our happiness is the people who surround us. Take a chance on them.
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I’m not saying it can’t work, because clearly it works for some. I am saying that it is not unreasonable for it to be a dealbreaker for a prospective partner either. You can be not in it for the money yet still unwilling to shoulder a disproportionate financial risk in case the marriage fails.
Hiding a financial asset from a prospective spouse, as the OP seems to have explored, would be highly unethical.
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Pre nup is fine. Be smart about who you marry etc. If you want to marry a waitress/line cook from the Waffle House (not denigrating the job) it will be prudent to get that pre nup. If you marry an orthopod, probably don't need it.
There is an emotional component to marriage but don't kid yourself that it is a contract approved by the government with very important financial ramifications.
Cardiologist are making $500k plus a year. Let's say he/she works 20 years. That's $10 million of gross income on the line ( taxes will take a chunk off but plenty of legal tax loopholes). If invested properly, that can be generational type of money.
After a few years, they can easily amass nearly a million dollars. That is a lot of money at stake.
Easiest way to go broke as a physician is get divorced.
There is an emotional component to marriage but don't kid yourself that it is a contract approved by the government with very important financial ramifications.
Cardiologist are making $500k plus a year. Let's say he/she works 20 years. That's $10 million of gross income on the line ( taxes will take a chunk off but plenty of legal tax loopholes). If invested properly, that can be generational type of money.
After a few years, they can easily amass nearly a million dollars. That is a lot of money at stake.
Easiest way to go broke as a physician is get divorced.
Thanks to all. I will try to summarize here , let's all agree that there is not a wrong or right answer to all of this. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and that everyone opinion is subject to their own experiences. It is undeniable that there have been cases were doctors have been taken to the cleaners in a divorce and even future earnings are part of the settlements. I can also deduct from yours answer here that some of you have been happily married for a long time and a divorce is not something that is part of the equation and that is good. Some of you think that prenup is a good idea others think that the other party will be offended. Some think that marrying in the same income bracket is the solution and others that is a bad idea even when they consider it at first. Some think that putting money earned years previous to marriage into my parents name is unethical others say is ok but make sure to consider all the consequences.
To clarify some of the issues here, it is an option for me to marry in the same bracket but it is not the only option. If I find someone that I feel is compatible with me , the bracket will not matter. Somehow I think it would have been easier to have had someone who has been by my side during all this years and going thru all the difficult years so I know that person is someone I can trust. Now my situation is, I have to date someone for not a long period of time and trust my instinct , at the same time I have to ask myself, will this person marry me if I have a much lower income? How good am I judging someone else character ? and I guess that was the whole purpose of this.
What is my best option if I make a mistake judging the character and intentions of the person I marry? and I refuse to accept the answer that I will be doom for the rest of my life if that is the is the case.
To clarify some of the issues here, it is an option for me to marry in the same bracket but it is not the only option. If I find someone that I feel is compatible with me , the bracket will not matter. Somehow I think it would have been easier to have had someone who has been by my side during all this years and going thru all the difficult years so I know that person is someone I can trust. Now my situation is, I have to date someone for not a long period of time and trust my instinct , at the same time I have to ask myself, will this person marry me if I have a much lower income? How good am I judging someone else character ? and I guess that was the whole purpose of this.
What is my best option if I make a mistake judging the character and intentions of the person I marry? and I refuse to accept the answer that I will be doom for the rest of my life if that is the is the case.
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I'm not sure anyone really thinks putting your money in your parent's name is really that smart of a thing to do. I can't even comprehend someone wanting to do that.
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No, that is a terrible idea because it is not only unethical but also likely doesn't accomplish what you are intending. There are many more ways for that to go wrong than getting a prenup, with the only theoretical advantage being that you don't have to have a difficult conversation with your prospective spouse (and instead get to have a difficult conversation with your actual spouse after several years of already being married).
Get a prenup. But again, there is no way to fully mitigate all risk if you choose to get married.
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Best option is preventative—per WhiteCoatInvestor, the #1 best financial decision you can make is to marry right, and then put in the effort (ie, literally schedule date nights once married/working)
Divorce is the #1 most common financial disaster that occurs to physicians (and most Americans). It’s far, far more common if a financial hit than malpractice lawsuits.
If you’re of the opinion you need some kind of “insurance” plan then the best options are
1) Talk to an estate lawyer
2) Do a prenup and accept that it could cause issues with the person you bring it up with (it may not—perhaps people who think prenups are fine tend to be attracted to partners who think prenups are fine—I have no idea what the statistics are)
Marrying in the same financial class isn’t protection. Who knows if your spouse decides to stop working (or if you do). If you’re both earning the same amount when you’re dating/engaged, it’s not a given that’ll continue throughout the future. So I don’t think that negates a prenup for those inclined to have that protection.
3) Accept that there is risk regardless of what you do. Many prenups get thrown. Clearly you’ll want a good lawyer to draft a prenup.
I would not put money in your parents’ name. As others pointed out, so much can go wrong beyond just the tax implications. A big concern would be if your parents are legally at fault for something (they get sued) since the vast majority of non-employer sponsored retirement/investment plans are not protected from creditors, government garnishment, etc. So many folks go bankrupt due to health.
I think a spouse is more likely to get offended you hid money than asked for a prenup (unless you tell them about the parent-held accounts early on). Keep it simple—forget the parent retirement account plan (unless you’re also just trying to protect your assess from creditors in general—still, not the best idea), put the money in your own retirement account, get a pre-nup and then post-marriage future retirement dollars into a different retirement account (so your pre-marriage retirement dollars are always separate from your post-marriage retirement dollars. I assume that’s the easiest way to separate pre vs post-marriage write me t funds, but again—ask a lawyer)
Bottom line is spend the money for a good lawyer. All our advice is simply that of a bunch of people with MDs/DOs but not JDs, and if/when stuff hits the fan even good JD’s advice sometimes doesn’t go as planned. So find a really good JD.
Excellent answer. Not a legal question but more like a people question, what will you guys consider fair. Of course situations change and if there are children involved is another ball game. The only thing about RangerBob answer that I will not totally agree is "Marrying in the same financial class isn’t protection. Who knows if your spouse decides to stop working" . I think for this to happens you probably are a few years into the marriage and it will be an agreement from the both parties. It is not like one of the spouse will show off one day and say, hey I decided to stop working and you are now in charge of all the financial .
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Happened to me. I'm not married to that person anymore. 12 years on and she still isn't working (I put up with it for 4 of them).
Fortunately, my alimony payment drops to a near poverty level amount next year so she'll probably get a job by then.
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Sorry-yes, that is what I meant. Your equal earning spouse may decide to stop working if you have kids, for example. In which case you’re now in an unequal income partnership and it brings up the concerns you mentioned initially, with the exception that they may have accrued some assets up to that point.
I may be wrong but something fair would have been since both have the same earning potential, Ok you get a part time and I get a part time and we both spend time with the children. Unless I am onboard with her decision of her not working. I guess you need a prenup even when you married in the same bracket. Will anyone keep married to a person like that that unilaterally take that decision ?
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Regarding your first statement-yes, we’d probably all be better off if when women starting entering the workplace more, they entered half time and men dropped to half time, so that all had the equivalent of a full time stay at home parent between the two.
Of course, it’s not like all families in the past that is so often glorified even had a stay at home parent—most working class families had two working parents, if it was a two parent household.
Regarding your question at the end, I think in general most people don’t like it if their partner makes a unilateral decision. But some people prefer not to make decisions—every couple is different.
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Pre-nups are only valid if they are deemed "fair". No judge will deem zero to be fair. In the end, pre-nups say, "I will you give you A LOT of cash to go away, but not 50%."
Given a cardiology income of $500k-600k+, I would guess a fair amount to a poorer ex-spouse needs to be a 7-figure payout. At least something like $250,000 per year of marriage, capped at 10-20 years of marriage. There are many pitfalls to what is "fair", including a poorer spouse signing a pre-nup without a lawyer. And poorer is relative. Even if your spouse is a doctor, a cardiologist 2-3 times more than the average doctor. Don't forget the richer spouse may have to pay the poorer spouse's divorce lawyers too.
Child support is also separate. You are required to maintain their lifestyles (i.e., such as any private schools, fancy house, Porsche, equestrian hobbies, vacations, college funds etc.).
Get thee to a lawyer.
I'm not a fan of spending money in private schools. Even if the marriage goes well for me is a waste of money. I will rather find a house in a neighborhood with a good rated public school. I wonder if that could be part of a Pre-nups.
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Best advice of the thread.
Anyone who has a fair amount of money and wants to keep it, should be throwing money at good lawyers imho.
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Nope. TBH, I think I did as well in the settlement as I would have in a prenup. In fact, I probably would have been more generous in a prenup, thinking "this will never be an issue".Wow, I'm not kidding with this but during pre-med , medical school and residence I always though what gutonc will say about this
Did you have a prenup?
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Lol wut
Have you considered not getting married at all?
I love this contract though. If you aren't agreeable to public schools, we divorce and you get NOTHING. Hahahaha ok
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If you are thinking of every way to protect yourself for all potential bad paths a marriage can take, then you are doomed to take one of those bad paths.
I think you have more things to worry about than prenups.
I think you have more things to worry about than prenups.
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So, I'm not sure you are aware of this, but most states have no fault divorce, and either party can file for any reason. So if someone doesn't want to be with you except for your paycheck, you are more than free to divorce them.
If your worry is someone would want to marry you for your money, the pre-nup gives an incentive for your last stated worry.
As far as, having a pre-nup keeps someone from marrying you for your money, that wouldn't stop someone. Being married to someone with more money will always improve your quality of life while you are with them, even if in a divorce you walk away with nothing. And if you have kids, you can rest assured your kids have a better quality of life from money no matter what happens with the relationship. Or why else would a woman ever choose to breed with Trump? I'm sure Melania had to sign a pre-nup. Ivanka's kids are doing pretty well. It doesn't matter if Trump discards those women, the children have been made, they are his, he generally has cared for them financially and continues to do so. And even if that was not why they married him, once you become a mother that is generally the most important thing, whereupon not much else matters all that much. So gold diggers can still win even with a pre-nup.
Also, you have not had children. Rather than judging women that stay at home with the kids, consider for a moment, that having all the money you will have, you might greatly prefer the idea of the mother of your children being the one to watch over them every spare minute, rather than entrusting a stranger often with minimal education, often underpaid, where your infant is only one of 4 that person is watching. Battles with daycare over the care of your child. Endless sniffles. Maybe you want your children to be fed directly from the breast, held close for every meal by the only other person on the planet that loves them as much as you do. I don't say this to hate on anyone that chooses work and daycare or doesn't breastfeed, but consider for a moment that some people who can afford it prefer to do the care themselves or have their spouse do it. But more importantly, consider that having a family, having children, is not something that you can know ahead of time all your feelings and all of how you want things done. And the most "cheap" way to do it often ends up not being the greatest priority. (Also full time at home nanny is not without its own challenges and struggles, and costs money).
Consider that once that precious babe is borne, you or the mother or both, may change how you feel about their care.
And if the mother says, you make 600k a year, why would you rather pay a stranger to care for your baby, than allow me to stay home and be the one to do it? Are you going to tell her what a gold digger she is at that point?
And it could be the most dedicated career woman you know. Children change you. It is biological and hormonal, and just as one cannot predict who gets hyperemesis gravidarum with pregnancy, one cannot ahead of time account for all the things that will change postpartum. The whole thing is a wildcard.
Which leads me to the last thing. Any number of things can happen to a woman during pregnancy, and some of those things can actually be disabling.
Consider as well, that if you were to spend decades with a woman, and she gave you children, and she cared for them, especially when you couldn't be there because you were busy, how do you think those children will feel about you divorcing their mother and riding off into the sunset with all your wealth to start over with a new wife, and leaving her poor? I've seen it happen. While she will be the "freeloader would-be gold digger were it not for the pre-nup" to you, she will not be that to them.
Consider that in that case, the lack of a pre-nup (but not a total abandonment of some asset protection), and your ex wife being entitled to a slice of the pie of a life you have both put blood tears and sweat into, that the courts looking at the situation and deciding "fair," may be what keeps you honest and keeps you from making a decision that benefits you evolutionarily speaking (dump the woman financially and take your wealth to the next marriage and set of kids, look at many Kevin Costner), but could alienate you from your own children. Because that woman will always be the mother of your children, and it is on THEIR account, not yours, not hers, that you should consider what you owe her.
If you don't want to share half your stuff and pay out the nose for your own children regardless of what happens, why do you even want to get legally married?
I mean, you haven't discussed what you think is fair for her and the kids to have should there be a divorce. When one person makes a lot of money and the other doesn't, I mean the kids are shared regardless. So should she get half the house so you both take your half and get decent separate houses? Or the kids spend half their time with you in the mansion, and the other half they stay with mom and grandma in the hovel their father left their mother in?
If you pick the right person to marry and have kids with, by the time alimony would even be an issue, do you really think the other party isn't entitled to some of the house, money, and retirement? Wasn't being married and binding yourselves by blood in shared children --- I mean, what greater way can you lash your fortunes to another person than in children? --- wasn’t the intention to share? And why, when 2 people walk away from one another, why is one person entitled to all the fruits of those labors and the other person is just **** out of luck?
I have a relative that pays my other relative alimony. The one getting alimony lives in a nice condo and has a decent car, and goes on a couple trips a year in retirement. The one paying alimony, it hasn't stopped him from living in a multimillion dollar house, having a yacht, traveling the globe all year round, buying whatever he wants, and enjoying retirement with the new wife.
So is one-half of your salary really not enough for you? I think you need to reconsider your finances.
Also, rather than considering yourself parasitized in this scenario, consider that if that person hadn't been with YOU, what else could they have had? A better father for their children? Someone who keeps their promises? Someone to share everything with? Someone who puts a greater value on certain ethics than cold hard cash? Someone who respects their non-financial contributions?
For the record, if you flip around the genders I feel the same way.
Yes, it's nice when we no longer feel a certain way about someone, to just be done with them and walk away and if their life sucks, who cares. But that's not how every promise in life works out. With kids and decades of marriage, these promises don't just end when you're tired of them.
And if she decides to leave you, that doesn't mean she should have to forfeit all you worked together to build. If someone does all this with you and then leaves, they probably have a decent reason, one you are at least partly responsible for.
I don't know if you know this, but in a relationship, especially a good one, the value in it isn't the money. It's the love, care, emotional labor, and time put in. And that doesn't have a pricetag. And individual salaries don't measure them. There is no pre-nup that lets either party ever get that back. This is why the best that can be done in many scenarios is to try to have both parties separate in a way where neither person is making off with everything and the other person has nothing.
I don't think either party in a cardiologist marriage should walk away poor. There's no reason for that at all.
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This last part is not how alimony works. If someone chooses to let you use their uterus to reproduce and puts up with you for a few decades, they are entitled to some of what they help support you in creating during that same time.
My understanding for most states is you are usually looking at a decade minimum for alimony to be considered on anything but a temporary basis meant to help the other spouse attain independence if attaining independence is a challenge for various reasons.
If I birthed your kids, babysat your kids, changing their diapers, picked them up from soccer practice, while you ground the flour to make a cake we plan on eating together, you think that it's fair that you decide not to give me a piece of the cake and you eat the whole thing?
The point is your entire thinking shows a certain sort of self centered egoism about your achievements and what you deserve, and the value you place on that, and very little does it sound like you value your spouse for showing up, birthing kids, and caring for all of you. You are focused on yourself and what it means for you, and looking very little at how it looks on the other foot.
My rant above, it isn't all the way I am saying you can argue against some of it, but I wanted to play Devil's Advocate and see if you could look past the money. Because if you can't look past who is bringing how many dollars your marriage is already doomed.
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Maybe she finds out you aren't who she thought YOU were. She thought you were a super intelligent emotionally mature person who is caring and generous, because you are a cardiologist that saves lives, and not a selfish man-child.
And my God, as one person mentioned, she could find out how you hid money in your parent's name and you never mentioned it.
Before you tell me, no no, you're not selfish and immature, I mean, look at how you are looking at things.
Someone beautifully mentioned that marriage is risk. Having your babies is an enormous risk. But your focus here on money and what's mine is mine and what if this person wants to stay home, disappoints me not being who I thought they were, etc etc
Someone's greatest fears can tell a lot about them.
My greatest fears I can tell you right now. Something happens to my daughter or my partner. I'm destitute and homeless. I die alone and in pain. My greatest fears are for the people I love or not having love.
I say somewhere else on this board, the reality is that a lack of money can make any good relationship suffers under the stress. By being the person who can earn enough for your spouse not to work and still care for the kids comfortably, means you don't have to think about the realities of someone else's income and how that diminishes your life together and your kids. You can marry the sculptor and support them sculpting in the basement if that is their passion. Your kids can become artists. If your dream is medicine, you are so lucky that your dream can mean you can love anyone and money will not ruin things. That your dream can finance your loved one's dreams, like your kids. If medicine is not your dream and passion, then all the more reason for your loved ones to at least get to experience that if they can. If not you, then at least them.
I don't want for anyone to be a ****ing artist it's broke and freaks me out and sounds awful. But the point is being able to remove money as a major worry can open the door to so much more. You can marry any wonderful person you want! Your kids can be comfortable. We don't control kids and who they end up being. The starving artists are that way much as physicians destroy themselves for career. Compulsive behavior in more than one sphere. Artists starve because that is how much they love art. A lack of money won't change that. So what a gift to give kids that they don't have to choose between fulfillment and food.
If holding onto money is what matters most, you may find that causes you a lot of stress and doesn't bring you more people into your life or more happiness. It's how people have all the stuff in the world and end up alone.
Ask not, how do I hold onto this money and keep it from the people I supposedly care about most in this world (or should), ask how can I use this money to care for the people I love? I guarantee the latter will be better for you than the former. The former never gives people what they think it will.
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Well **** I don't know why I bother writing posts half the time. I tried to say this but not as well and not as concise. I blame it on the wine and my partner playing Star Trek Online right now (which I fully support as I am a sci fi fan. We each have our nerd hobbies, mine is SDN).
Anyway, yeah, what this guy said
Thanks crayola for your opinion and hope you have a wonderful life just take into account that you once you consulted an attorney and also consider marrying in the same bracket. Were you the kind of person that you the mentioned in the previous post
I know it will never going to happens but let say hypothetically that it does, are you ok giving your husband half your salary for the next twenty years if you get divorce ? That is the question. If you are, yes you are a better human being that I'm. And also for clarification, I never said I will never paid alimony what I am saying something fair. I also mentioned that once there are kids involved is a different ball game.
Let me tell you an experience that I witnesses and tell me if this is fair. A dermatologist married a very attractive woman from another country, ( big mistake ) They have to kids. She then
Let me tell you an experience that I witnesses and tell me if this is fair. A dermatologist married a very attractive woman from another country, ( big mistake ) They have to kids. She then
start seeing another attractive guy from her own country and asked the dermatologist for a divorce. In addition the the alimony and child support their parent have gifted him a house that was value two million dollars. So he has to sell the house to give her a million. So she goes ahead an live her happy life with her lover and millions of dollars. Is this fair? If it is, so I totally whatever names that you want to attach to my. In addition , maybe was the wine, I never said that I will do any of this to a person who has spend decades on my side I was thinking more in the few beginning years of marriage.
If you have read my posts, at the beginning I said that I just want to have enough money to retire with dignity , how much money, I will think that three millions dollars will allow me to live in retirement if a get return of 6 % and withdraw 4 % . That will give $120000 a year + SS if still exist . I'm willing to spend all the rest of my earning with my family in whatever they want.
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This is the end of the relevant part of your story. He would have done much better following the “don’t marry the wrong person” advice than by getting a prenup.
Let me put it to you in this terms. Every year there is a first pick in the NBA draft. There are people that spend their all like analyzing players and when they pick they are sure they are making the right decision. Many of them misjudge the pick and make a mistake. In the other hand the Spurs every time the get the first pick they are luck enough that they are able go get a generational player like Robinson , Duncan or this French guy now. Sometimes you try to make a good decision but you can still make a mistake.
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Yes. There are rewards for making a good pick, and there are consequences to taking the wrong decision. Don’t play the game if you can’t live with the risk.
Regardless, in your hypothetical scenario, if the “scouting report” on the marriage starts with “a very attractive woman from another country,” that person should not be the no. 1 pick.
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Dude, we get it.
You're not the only person in the history of the world to wonder if you're picking the right spouse. And there are many high earning physicians who have wondered if their spouse will take advantage of their financial position.
By all means, get a pre-nup. I mean, don't bring it up on the first date, but if things turn serious, then discuss it.
But I can't imagine a pre-nup iron clad enough that it will protect you from the financial and emotional heartbreak of having realized that you picked a spouse poorly. And if it is that rigid and strict, then I imagine that it could/would be contested in court - which, of course, brings a significant financial cost with it.
Instead of fixating on how to draw up a pre-nup so waterproof that your spouse can never "take advantage" of you, maybe focus on how to pick a spouse better. If all this fear around the pre-nup comes from your own past experience with gold-digging girlfriends, maybe think back on red flags that you missed in the past. Maybe re-think your list of what you're looking for in a potential partner. If this fear is coming from seeing what friends and relatives have been through, then learn from their experience.
I get it. I do. Society encourages women to seek out rich guys and become gold diggers. I'm primary care so I've never exactly been rolling in it (and, actually, for a long time I worked in a community health center, so I was making MEDICAID primary care money....definitely not rolling in it). My spouse, on the other hand, is in a much higher paying specialty, and I have heard my share of "Ohhh....so THAT's why you're with him," and "Did you ask for a Ferrari for Christmas?" But there are definitely women who refuse to depend on someone and would never, in a million years, take advantage of their financial position. You just need to find one of them. They're out there. (And no, I have never asked for a Ferrari. I was happy with my Subaru for years until our kids got too big for it.)
Smq123 , i never said an ironclad prenup, what i been asking is what is fair since it is obvious I have not been there
Yes I agree, she was a Greg Oden type of pick but we can’t denied he looks good coming out of college 😄
Exactly you are the type of women that I'm looking for. I'm planning to live as a resident the next few year, pay my debt, drive my Toyota for a few more years. Never live beyond my means. I don't think a Doctor should live in million dollars houses or send the kids to private schools or have a yacht or drive a Ferrari I would like for me an my family to travel the world, visit as many countries as we can. That it is what I want but we don't control everything , do we? Do I want to find the person to do all this with, of course. Can I make a mistake because I'm a human and think that the person that I have chosen is the right one? that is also true.
