Let's talk about: Internships and residencies

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meadow36

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I just have some basic questions about the whole internship / residency process after one graduates. I realize it's a little early to be thinking about it, but if I am asked of my plans in 5 years or 10 years in my next interview, I want to be able to speak intelligently about it.

So, what exactly is an internship for and how much do interns make? Is this like a "pre-requisite" to a residency? Why do some vets do an internship and not a residency? Why do some not do either? Is it always 1 year for an internship and 3 for a residency, or does that vary?

What are the pros and cons of doing an internship?

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I will try to answer some of your questions and hopefully I am not making this up!

The reason many vet students decide to do an internship is because though you come out of vet school with lots of knowledge you still aren't fully prepared to work as a vet. Now that isn't to say that people dont just jump into the fire and succeed, because they do, but many choose to take on an internship because you get to work in an environment with a veterinarian looking over your shoulder and teaching you the ins and outs of the profession. This is rather than say starting at an emergency clinic and ending up working a shift alone and hoping you can remember all the info you learned to work your cases. It just helps in the transition from vet school to real life practice. In addition it can be a stepping stone to a residency. On the down side most interns make a substantial amount less than they would as just a standard vet. Most equine vets start out with an internship and that is why when you see the average salary stats for equine vets they are so much lower than everyone else.

You do a residency if you want to specialize in some sort of vet medicine. Some vets just want the extra tutelage an internship affords so go that route but stop after and dont complete a residency. Some do neither because it's certainly possible to just throw yourself in the ring and start practicing veterinary medicine. Hopefully some others can answer the rest of your questions and correct me/add on to what I wrote.
 
First off let me just say to learn the benefit of an internship all you have to do is ask a person who has completed one how they felt it benefited them. I know every vet I talked to has felt its been the most valuable learning experience of their career and really allowed them to hit the ground running when they were done with it.

I just have some basic questions about the whole internship / residency process after one graduates. I realize it's a little early to be thinking about it, but if I am asked of my plans in 5 years or 10 years in my next interview, I want to be able to speak intelligently about it.

So, what exactly is an internship for and how much do interns make?
There are different types of internships. For small animal medicine you will hear most about rotating internships. These are what most larger hospitals offer and interns will divide their time between covering emergency shifts and rotating through the different departments within the hospital. Pay is typically pretty poor, usually you are looking at between 20 and 30k for the year. And depending on the hours your program has your working, you could very well be making less than minimum wage if you think of it hourly.(but you need to think of it as an educational experience)



Is this like a "pre-requisite" to a residency?
Depends on the residency. Many will have a requirement like 1 year rotating internship or 2 years of general practice experience.

Why do some vets do an internship and not a residency?
An internship is an amazing opportunity for exposure. Since they are usually associated with an emergency or referral hospital you arnt seeing your more typical cases. So in a 1 year time frame you can see a great variety of cases and also preform numerous procedures. In a good program you will come away with a much greater skillset than if you had just worked in a GP setting for a year.

Why do some not do either?
Depends what type of practice the person wants to be involved in.

Is it always 1 year for an internship and 3 for a residency, or does that vary?
Residencies will vary in length. Not sure about the specifics but it seems surgery tends to be a 3 year residency while therio is usually 2.


Take a look at the virmp.org website (Veterinary Internship and Residency Matching Program) as it lists the different internships available along with a general description of job responsibilities.

This is the description of the rotating internship at Angell in boston.
http://www.virmp.org/virmp/viewprogram.aspx?progid=3949 said:
Description of Program:
Angell Animal Medical Center in Boston, world renowned for medical excellence, is seeking above average candidates for 15 internship positions. The internship begins on June 15, 2009 and ends on June 30 2010. Applicants will be considered on the basis of their academic record, letter of intent and letters of recommendation. A personal or telephone interview is very strongly recommended. Interview dates are available for December 2008 and January 2009; please call Arlyne Koopmann at 617-541-5192 for an appointment. The Angell internship is a challenging and exciting opportunity with an emphasis on mentoring and teaching. The evolution of the program is ongoing.
The goal of this internship is to provide the new graduate with a foundation in general and specialty referral medical practice on which to build a future of strong clinical skills, critical thinking, ethics, continued learning and teaching. The interns are expected to learn all aspects of hospital procedures, including management of a wide variety of cases, generating appropriate estimates and communicating with owners and referring veterinarians. Angell's program has an excellent record of graduates continuing on to residencies in all veterinary specialties. Not listed on the program support page is the fact that we have a double boarded clinical and anatomical pathologist, and a full in house pathology laboratory, a certified veterinary acupuncturist and a dentistry service with a board eligible dentist.
The internship begins with two weeks of orientation; an overlap period with the graduating class of interns aids in adjustment. The program includes 10 - 12 weeks in surgery and one week each on the avian/exotic medicine service, neurology, radiology, as well as time for electives and vacation. Approximately 60% of the year is spent with the internal medicine and emergency/critical care services, with clinical responsibility comprised primarily of emergency receiving. Overnight receiving is scheduled in blocks; the critical care service manages admitted cases during the daytime, providing excellent continuity in patient care and client communication. A resident or staff clinician supervises most emergency shifts, and staff and residents are readily available on an emergency basis during the overnight. Daily patient rounds occur on all services, during which all hospitalized patients and some outpatients are discussed. Each intern is supported by an advisor, and is evaluated regularly by the staff on his or her professional performance, communication skills and progress in the pursuit of knowledge and clinical aptitude. The clinical services at Angell work as teams, therefore good group interaction and communications skills are essential for the intern's success. Interns must be able to work efficiently and effectively with a heavy caseload.
The demanding caseload at Angell requires the intern to perform many minor medical and surgical procedures by themselves under staff supervision. Interns can expect to be directly involved with more major procedures as assistants.
Opportunities for continuing education include, but are not limited to, daily patient rounds, daily radiology rounds, and a mandatory weekly lecture series designed specifically for the interns. Most of the clinical services have regular didactic sessions during which they may review the current literature, discuss particular topics, and/or review cases in depth. Time permitting, interns are welcome at these sessions. There is also a weekly continuing education program for the veterinary staff and area veterinarians; these lectures are presented by the staff, residents, and guest lecturers, and the topics cover a wide range of interests related to veterinary medicine. Each intern is required to prepare one lecture, with the assistance of a staff member, which will be presented during this weekly series. A library containing 30 or more periodicals as well as current texts is in house and available 24 hours a day.
Interns are required to be fully licensed in the state of Massachusetts. Interns participate in the benefits package outlined in the MSPCA/Angell employment materials. The above description reflects the program as of the date of writing. This is a dynamic program; changes may be made at any time, leading to deviations from this description.
 
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David, that was very thorough, thanks! Can anyone comment on large animal / equine internships as well? Why do many equine vets start out in an internship?
 
I work at the MSPCA Angell hospital as a critical care tech, and the intern program here is very strong. They work really hard and don't get enough sleep or enough food, but the amount that they learn - especially in the emergency and critical care "block" - is incredible.
If anyone has any questions about the internship program at Angell feel free to send me a message.
 
Can anyone comment on large animal / equine internships as well? Why do many equine vets start out in an internship?

I am sure there are many reasons but here is one that I can think of. A good portion of equine vets do primarily farm calls (ambulatory) and therefore are out on their own at farms working with clients and their horses. Unlike a hospital setting, it is not as easy to slip into the back while you are working up a case and discuss your treatment plan with colleagues. An extra year of supervised training is very helpful! Just one thought.

Another thought is also that caseloads at some schools are not as large or diverse as you might be able to see during an internship. For example, if your career goal was to work for Thoroughbred breeding farms or at racetracks and you went to school somewhere where the primary equine demographic are quarter horses, it would also be useful to have a year of more specialized training in the field you want to go into. I am not sure that competitve QH trainers ask for injections of Kentucky Red that often :laugh:

As far as the types of equine internships, it varies just like SA. There are some rotating internships at some of the bigger equine hospitals and there are more specific internships as well. Most of the full-service equine hospitals have at least 1 or 2 interns. They use the same match as SA(virmp.org).

Hope that helps!
 
After completing an internship, how much more could one expect for their starting salary vs. starting right out after graduation?
 
I think the internship is more about gaining experience for experience's sake (and also a precursor for a residency), and the residency and subsequent board certification is what will give you the opportunity to get a job with a higher salary. I could be wrong, though...
 
After completing an internship, how much more could one expect for their starting salary vs. starting right out after graduation?

It depends. Some practice owners recognize than an internship is valuable experience and will pay an internship-trained DVM a bit more than a new graduate or someone with 1-year private practice experience.

But many practice owners didn't do an internship and are convinced it's "ivory tower" with no "real world" experience and won't pay any premium.

And if you're paid on production the only thing that matters is how productive you are. In a good progressive practice someone with an internship will generally out produce a new graduate.
 
Does anyone know how many years each residency is? Like IM, Cardiology, etc. or are they all 3 years?
 
Does anyone know how many years each residency is? Like IM, Cardiology, etc. or are they all 3 years?

Range is 2-6 years depending on specialty and if a MS or PhD is included.
 
David, that was very thorough, thanks! Can anyone comment on large animal / equine internships as well? Why do many equine vets start out in an internship?

I have several friends looking to apply for internships in equine, but I am not equine, so take what you will.

The vet schools and some of the bigger places (Hagyard, etc.) go through match. Other internships go through AAEP. Some of the AAEP internships you have to decide on before the match results are in, which sucks. The refrain I hear from all my equine friends that are third and fourth years is that it's hard to get a job at a good equine hospital without some sort of internship. I'm guessing you probably don't need one if you're going to work at a small town ambulatory practice, but if you want to go for a biggie, you probably need an internship.
 
In a good progressive practice someone with an internship will generally out produce a new graduate.

Thanks! Very interesting to see. Since I don't even start vet school till this fall, I guess it is a little early to think about, but maybe something to keep in the back of my mind. So many choices/paths for the future!!
 
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Range is 2-6 years depending on specialty and if a MS or PhD is included.

thanks, I was looking for more of which ones are how long? Or is that depending where you do it, a residency in the same area can vary in length? I am not looking to do a MS or PhD with it (yet), so excluding that.
 
thanks, I was looking for more of which ones are how long? Or is that depending where you do it, a residency in the same area can vary in length? I am not looking to do a MS or PhD with it (yet), so excluding that.

What fields?
 
haha any of them, I'll take any info you have on the matter!

Right now I really like cardiology, but that could easily change. What about nutrition, IM, neurology, dermatology (although I doubt I will ever want to explore that further)?
 
haha any of them, I'll take any info you have on the matter!

Right now I really like cardiology, but that could easily change. What about nutrition, IM, neurology, dermatology (although I doubt I will ever want to explore that further)?

all of those typically are 3 years (expcept if your neurology includes neurosurgery)... after rotating internship and in some cases (IM, derm) you may end up doing a second intern year in the specialty before residency.
 
which one is 2 years?

I'm interested in emergency medicine -- I am curious, is it financially worthwhile to become borded in ECC? I'm under the (misled?) impression that ECC doctors who are not boarded do nicely financially. Would getting boarded in ECC be a large pay raise?

(Or if someone could point me to boarded salaries, that'd work!)
 
haha any of them, I'll take any info you have on the matter!

The easiest thing to do is to check out virmp.org and browse through the various programs. If you do a program search and click on the the "view program" link, it will tell you the starting and ending dates, so you can figure out how long each one is.

E.g., a derm rotation at UC Davis gives the following information at the top:

Authorized Administrative Official: Diana Gomez
Inclusive Dates of Program: 8/1/2009 to 7/31/2011
Salary: $37,308.00

That way you can look for any types of rotations that interest you :)
 
2 questions... at what point do most vet students apply for internships/residencies (summer before 4th year, during final year of vet school, or after they have graduated and received their DVM degree)? And, can you only view the listings on virmp if you open an account?
 
2 questions... at what point do most vet students apply for internships/residencies (summer before 4th year, during final year of vet school, or after they have graduated and received their DVM degree)? And, can you only view the listings on virmp if you open an account?

In the past, it's been traditional for most interns to do their internship during their first year after graduating from vet school. However, increasingly there's been a trend for people to go out into practice for a year (or a few) before deciding to pursue an internship +/- residency.

If an internship or residency program is offered "through the match" (i.e., through VIRMP), applications are due December 1 of each year. So, this would be December 1 of your fourth year of vet school if you choose to go the internship route right away. Results are released for everyone applying through the match at the beginning of March (March 2 this year). The internship/residency year typically begins in June or July.

There are some programs for which application is done "outside the match." These tend to be private practice programs and they are in the minority. The deadlines for these programs vary individually. The majority of private practice programs are still offered through the match.

Some residency programs do not require an internship and/or don't have ANY programs through the match--pathology is a great example. You have to go by word-of-mouth/connections/your own investigation to find out which positions are available and when the deadlines are.

Hope that helps. You'll have plenty of time to learn all about the process. :)
 
And, can you only view the listings on virmp if you open an account?

Nope- just go to virmp.org, then click "program search". You can narrow it down by specialty, location, and institution. Run the search and click "view program" to see all the details.
 
Quick pseudo internship/residency question. How do students with large loan payments afford to live on $30,000 a year. When I graduate, I will sadly have something like 200,000 to 250,000 in loans, so even paying the minimum puts payments at around $1500 or so (I think, at least according to the loan calculator I used). Add to that $1000 a month for rent and your paycheck is already gone (and this is completely ignoring taxes).

I have no problem keeping my life expenses low and living on cup o' noodles for a few years, but even still, it doesn't seem physically possible to survive.

Is there something Im missing? How is this possible?

Thanks
 
Quick pseudo internship/residency question. How do students with large loan payments afford to live on $30,000 a year. When I graduate, I will sadly have something like 200,000 to 250,000 in loans, so even paying the minimum puts payments at around $1500 or so (I think, at least according to the loan calculator I used). Add to that $1000 a month for rent and your paycheck is already gone (and this is completely ignoring taxes).

I have no problem keeping my life expenses low and living on cup o' noodles for a few years, but even still, it doesn't seem physically possible to survive.

Is there something Im missing? How is this possible?

Thanks

You can defer your loans again if you continue with an internship (and maybe during residency, too). Thankfully! Otherwise, you're right, it would be nearly impossible to survive.
 
You can defer your loans again if you continue with an internship (and maybe during residency, too). Thankfully! Otherwise, you're right, it would be nearly impossible to survive.
Not true. You can defer IF you are a degree seeking candidate, otherwise you request forberance on your loans.:(
 
I don't know how much truth their is to it, but I seems to remember reading that if you really do have a specific place you would like to intern at that you should try and get yourself some exposure there before applying via an externship. Gives the people there some time to meet you and let you better learn about their program. Ideally making you more than just a name on paper when they come across your application.
 
Damn indeed. Does a forbearance destroy your credit though? Is that relatively standard to do during an internship or residency? I know my loans will be particularly high, but there must be other students in similar situations
 
Not true. You can defer IF you are a degree seeking candidate, otherwise you request forberance on your loans.:(

So in order to survive, do you take out more loans? What does forbearance entail and how is it granted? Would it be wiser if you are doing a residency to pursue an MS or PhD along with it to get the deferment?
 
So in order to survive, do you take out more loans? What does forbearance entail and how is it granted? Would it be wiser if you are doing a residency to pursue an MS or PhD along with it to get the deferment?

you survive off your resident/intern salary. You can get residency loans, but I avoid those like the plague. Forberance means you do not make payments on your loans, but interest continues to accrue (even substidized, and perkins loans). It does not effect your credit.
 
Everyone, meet Chris03333, the official financial advisor of SDN. Lol. :)

You might be joking, but snarky comments are not needed when soneone in the exact situation being asked about is trying to help;)
 
all of those typically are 3 years (expcept if your neurology includes neurosurgery)... after rotating internship and in some cases (IM, derm) you may end up doing a second intern year in the specialty before residency.

How uncommon is it for someone to get a residency in a really competitive specialty (like surgery) without doing a second intern year in that specialty?

Also, I'm kinda confused about how this works. If you are applying through the match to residency programs can you "default" to a surgical internship if you don't get into a residency? Are they ranked seperately or something? Or do you just have to apply to any left-over surgical internships spots for that year if you don't get into a residency after the match?
 
you survive off your resident/intern salary. You can get residency loans, but I avoid those like the plague. Forberance means you do not make payments on your loans, but interest continues to accrue (even substidized, and perkins loans). It does not effect your credit.

Thanks Chris03333. I think my best bet at this point is to marry rich. Fingers crossed.
 
How uncommon is it for someone to get a residency in a really competitive specialty (like surgery) without doing a second intern year in that specialty?

Very uncommon for surgery.

Also, I'm kinda confused about how this works. If you are applying through the match to residency programs can you "default" to a surgical internship if you don't get into a residency? Are they ranked seperately or something? Or do you just have to apply to any left-over surgical internships spots for that year if you don't get into a residency after the match?

You can, as a match applicant, rank both surgical residencies and internships. If you do not match, you have to scramble for the few (usually internships only left) programs that did not match an applicant.

Best strategy is to go to an internship that has a residency program in the field you want, rock your internship, and get good rec letters from a known person in your field.

Definately not easy.
 
Very uncommon for surgery.



You can, as a match applicant, rank both surgical residencies and internships. If you do not match, you have to scramble for the few (usually internships only left) programs that did not match an applicant.

Best strategy is to go to an internship that has a residency program in the field you want, rock your internship, and get good rec letters from a known person in your field.

Definately not easy.

Thanks for clearing that up Chris03333.... so really becoming ACVS board certified is generally a 5 year committment. That's a lot of accrued interest! :eek: Here's to hopefully getting accepted IN-STATE! :xf:
 
You might be joking, but snarky comments are not needed when soneone in the exact situation being asked about is trying to help;)

Hey now, not snarky. Smartass, perhaps...

I wasn't poking fun at your ability to answer the questions, though - I just thought it was funny that the thread went from internships/residencies to everyone asking you about loans... that's all.
 
Im still a little confused. Do you have to do an internship AND a residency to be board certified? I'm extremely interested in persuing board certification in neuro, so I'm curious if you have to do both or just one? I already have a Master's degree, so does that count me out of some of the programs offering MS/PhD options? Thanks!
 
Hey now, not snarky. Smartass, perhaps...

I wasn't poking fun at your ability to answer the questions, though - I just thought it was funny that the thread went from internships/residencies to everyone asking you about loans... that's all.

Snarky, smartass, whatever...point is that the disrespect was uncalled for, regardless if the thread sort of changed focus. Loans are a big aspect of internship and residency for those who have them, end of story.:cool:
 
Chris, I know you're working on lab animal and that's something I'm interested in, too. Are you pursuing a residency that includes an MS or PhD? If so, why did you choose that option?

Sorry if that's too personal!
 
Very uncommon for surgery.



You can, as a match applicant, rank both surgical residencies and internships. If you do not match, you have to scramble for the few (usually internships only left) programs that did not match an applicant.

Best strategy is to go to an internship that has a residency program in the field you want, rock your internship, and get good rec letters from a known person in your field.

Definately not easy.

So just clarify things on the surgery route.

1) Fourth year vet student, we will be applying through the match for a general rotating internship.

2) Mid internship year we apply through the match again. This time we would we would have all the residencies we are interested in as our top rankings and below that we would rank all the surgical internships we are interested in. (So we we at least have a shot at the internships as a fallback?).

Then if we get nothing through the match, we start scrambling for unmatched internship spots?



Or were you saying that if we want to go into surgery we should just plan on only applying to surgical internships, and after that apply for residencies?
 
Or were you saying that if we want to go into surgery we should just plan on only applying to surgical internships, and after that apply for residencies?

That's what I'm curious about...if you are positive you want to pursue a residency in surgery, why do the rortating internship and instead do a more surgical focused internship and then apply to residencies after one year...? Or is that impossible (because the surgical internships are very competitive..?)?
 
I don't know what I have EVER posted on this forum that could possibly make anyone assume I was being disrespectful - to anyone, or anything.

Of course loans are very important -
You clearly know what you're talking about -
And I never meant to imply that either of these statements wasn't true.
 
Thanks Chris03333. I think my best bet at this point is to marry rich. Fingers crossed.

My dad always jokes about this since I'm not in a long term relationship. I remind him that he would probably rather I be with a good, caring person that a rich cheater. Although if I find someone with heart of gold and pockets of gold, all the better!! :D
 
For surgery- first you complete a rotating small animal surgery/medicine internship. If you decide you want to go on to a residency you apply for programs December of your internship year. If you would also be happy w/ a surgical internship, you apply for these programs in addition to the residencies. If you match into a residency your applications to the surgical internships are nullified. It is also possible to scramble for surgical internships, fellowships, etc... if you do not match or did not apply for these programs through the match. Theoretically you can scramble for surgical residency positions, however there are not going to be any available, so that won't happen.

Of course, you don't have to apply for a residency right away (i.e. you can practice after your internship and apply later). It is also possible to practice for a number of years in lieu of a rotating internship, but with surgery being as competitive as it is, that probably won't work out too well.

Andrew
 
So just clarify things on the surgery route.

1) Fourth year vet student, we will be applying through the match for a general rotating internship.

2) Mid internship year we apply through the match again. This time we would we would have all the residencies we are interested in as our top rankings and below that we would rank all the surgical internships we are interested in. (So we we at least have a shot at the internships as a fallback?).

Then if we get nothing through the match, we start scrambling for unmatched internship spots?

yes
 
Chris, I know you're working on lab animal and that's something I'm interested in, too. Are you pursuing a residency that includes an MS or PhD? If so, why did you choose that option?

Sorry if that's too personal!

I am interested in clinical lab animal medicine primarily so I chose a 3 year non degree program.
 
That's what I'm curious about...if you are positive you want to pursue a residency in surgery, why do the rortating internship and instead do a more surgical focused internship and then apply to residencies after one year...? Or is that impossible (because the surgical internships are very competitive..?)?

The rotating internships are required for residencies (or "equivalent" experience)
 
I don't know what I have EVER posted on this forum that could possibly make anyone assume I was being disrespectful - to anyone, or anything.

Of course loans are very important -
You clearly know what you're talking about -
And I never meant to imply that either of these statements wasn't true.

Okay but your post was directed at me, and I found it disrespectful, so I told you that. There is a fine line we dance when posting in a joking matter and I did not find your post entertaining. So if you did not mean it I can let it go, but I had to point it out to you since the post involved my name (even if only a screen name).

Truce:thumbup:
 
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