Let's talk about pre-rounding

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Blondbondgirl

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So coming from a european med school a lot of the stuff I read here is hard to interpret-for example,

1-does everybody pre-round all of the time on all rotations? or only when they are told to? or only if they want to be super-awesome?
(read: will it be expected of me without them saying so for my neurology rotation?)
2-what exactly do you do? (banal, I know) cheat sheets on all pts? or a quick review of what happened overnight to "your" pts?

Thanks-a-latte! 😎
 
1-does everybody pre-round all of the time on all rotations? or only when they are told to? or only if they want to be super-awesome?
(read: will it be expected of me without them saying so for my neurology rotation?)

I did, and still do as an intern.

2-what exactly do you do? (banal, I know) cheat sheets on all pts? or a quick review of what happened overnight to "your" pts?

Everything that happened in the last 24hrs since the team rounded: labs, studies, events, change in subjective feeling, bowel movements, I&Os, and physical exam.

Thanks-a-latte! 😎

<sigh>
 
for neuro - the PE is really important because it changes. Small changes in reflexes, strength, etc...can be very good or very bad. You need to do a fairly complete exam each morning before formal rounds.
 
I did, and still do as an intern.

That is true for me also, although some people try and discourage it. If anything I'd recommend knowing important events overnight, which can usually be accomplished by talking to the nurse, checking the order sheets to see what the on-call person ordered, and looking at the flowsheet. Also, round up labs and do all pertinent physical exams, review x-rays, etc. It makes you look like a superstar.
 
So coming from a european med school a lot of the stuff I read here is hard to interpret-for example,

1-does everybody pre-round all of the time on all rotations? or only when they are told to? or only if they want to be super-awesome?
(read: will it be expected of me without them saying so for my neurology rotation?)
2-what exactly do you do? (banal, I know) cheat sheets on all pts? or a quick review of what happened overnight to "your" pts?

Thanks-a-latte! 😎

Are you equivalent to a 4th year student? In other words, are you doing a sub-internship or an "acting internship"?

You should definitely pre-round, unless your resident/attending explicitly tells you not to (for whatever reason). Especially if you're in your 2nd clinical year (= 4th year US med student) - it will be assumed that you're going to pre-round.

Quick review of what happened overnight. Did they spike a fever? Did their blood glucose level shoot up to 400? Did they lose consciousness/become obtundant at any point in the night? Did they become combative or undergo a severe mental status change? Did their blood pressure shoot up (or drop down dangerously) overnight? Any cardiac arrhythmias overnight?

If you haven't pre-rounded yet, you see the patient and talk to them (if possible - may not be possible with neuro patients). Ask if they had a bad night or trouble sleeping. Ask if they had any new physical complaints. Do a quick, focused, and detailed physical exam (on neuro, you should almost definitely include a cranial nerve exam). Then do a quick chart review and talk to the nurses, to see if anything else happened. Check overnight/early AM labs. Check to see if pathology or radiology is back yet. Write your own note in the chart detailing all the information that you found.
 
thanks for the help, guys! Tired, don't be such a hater!😛

So 2 quick further questions-

-how much time should I plan for pre-rounding (need to work out some logistics in travelling)?

-what's a good pocket guide for neurology for someone who does not need to take the shelf exam?

thanks!
 
-how much time should I plan for pre-rounding (need to work out some logistics in travelling)?

Depends on if you're rounding on the floor, in step-down, or in the ICU.

Also depends how long it normally takes you to do a quick focused interview and physical exam.

For some, talking to the patient, performing a quick exam, checking labs/radiological studies, and writing a progress note can be done in 5-10 minutes. For others, it may take a little longer: perhaps 15-20 minutes. I'd at least double the time needed if you're pre-rounding in the ICU.

How long was it taking to see patients and write notes in your home program?
 
I've pre-rounded on EVERY rotation except for pediatrics (where I was specifically told not to wake the kids before sign out). As for how long pre-rounding takes, it depends on the service and what is expected on rounds.

Surgery - past 24 hours, vitals trended, targeted physical - heart, lungs, belly, surgical site, note written for each patient: 10 mins per patient
Neurology - my first inpatient rotation, about 20 minutes per patient

I start IM on Monday and I will preround. I expect that it will take me about 12-14 mins/patient.

To make my pre-rounds easier, I try to do a chart check, lab results check, and an afternoon visit on all my patients before I leave. Thus, when I arrive in the morning I only have 12 hours to catch up on - not 24. It also means that I can get anything my patients might needs (med renewals, something to help them sleep, diet changes) at afternoon signout, meaning my intern gets paged one less time overnight.
 
It also means that I can get anything my patients might needs (med renewals, something to help them sleep, diet changes) at afternoon signout, meaning my intern gets paged one less time overnight.

👍 👍
 
Yes, despite my dislike of surgery and SOME surgery residents, I actually did try to make their lives better 😛

I still remember your trooper attitude from an old thread. 👍 Props to you for sticking it out despite the frequent beat-downs! You're a better person for it - you took the high road (plus it built character!).

At least, that's what I always tell myself when I recall my days as an MS-III on my OB/GYN rotation. 👎
 
For some, talking to the patient, performing a quick exam, checking labs/radiological studies, and writing a progress note can be done in 5-10 minutes. For others, it may take a little longer: perhaps 15-20 minutes.

Honestly if it's the OP's first time pre-rounding ever, I'd give it more like 45mins to an hour. Particularly so if you are going to be presenting and expected to have a note done before rounding that's more detailed than the labs and a few quick sentences on overnight events (many attendings expect volumes from med students). You can always scale it back the next day if you were done early. It is one of those things that you start out really slow, but by the end of a rotation you will be considerably faster. Also budget time for unexpected events, like a patient being in the shower precisely when you want to see them, the nurses notes/vitals or patient's chart being in use or nowhere to be found, the computers being all tied up when you want to check labs. So it pays not to try and cut it close sometimes.
 
Honestly if it's the OP's first time pre-rounding ever, I'd give it more like 45mins to an hour.

Good point. I'd forgotten about the OP's background.

My first MS-III rotation was IM, and I think it originally took me 45-60 minutes to see a patient and write a note. 😱

Needless to say, I've become faster since then. 🙂
 
What's next? Pre pre-rounds?

Hoov
 
What's next? Pre pre-rounds?

Hoov

We had a really neurotic senior resident on one of our teams who would basically do this. You and the intern would show up at a reasonable time to round on the patients and she had basically rounded on everyone by the time you got there and was already jumping on you.

"What do you think of Patient X's overnight blood sugar?"
"Um, I'll tell you as soon as I get a chance to look at it"
 
Thanks so much for the input, guys, I finally feel like I know how to approach all of this.
It is so wierd coming from a German med school-we are only expected to shadow the docs in the a.m. for our med school practicals 4th and 5th year (classes after 12 p.m.) - so we aren't actively involved. And our last (6th) year is only in the clinic, but I have never heard of anyone pre-rounding. You have to be aggressive here to "earn" your way into the team with patient management. And since we have no internship, you jump into residency with a LOT of theoretical knowledge but probably never having to have managed a patient alone before...
 
Thanks so much for the input, guys, I finally feel like I know how to approach all of this.
It is so wierd coming from a German med school-we are only expected to shadow the docs in the a.m. for our med school practicals 4th and 5th year (classes after 12 p.m.) - so we aren't actively involved. And our last (6th) year is only in the clinic, but I have never heard of anyone pre-rounding. You have to be aggressive here to "earn" your way into the team with patient management. And since we have no internship, you jump into residency with a LOT of theoretical knowledge but probably never having to have managed a patient alone before...

Scary!!

Really, the key to pre-rounding is to figure out what the important, key pieces of information are and to access them quickly.

On neurology, I would definitely pre-round and have a comprehensive note prepared. Are you familiar with the SOAP format? It is used on most rotations. Also, ICU notes/presentations are usually done by system. Be sure to review the films (MRI, CTA, etc) before rounds, as these are often key studies on the neurology rotation. This will help you in your assessment and plan part of the presentation.
 
My first MS-III rotation was IM, and I think it originally took me 45-60 minutes to see a patient and write a note. 😱

Medicine was great. Rounding was like group therapy, and four times as long.

I even used to listen to hearts. Why? No idea.
 
But at least after all that rounding, you get to...

...oh wait. Then it's the end of the day. No OR, no procedures.

Or, "Oh good, I finished all my work early, so I can . . . wait for night float to get here."
 
My record for rounding: 6 hours on my neurology rotation
*headwall*
 
My record for rounding: 6 hours on my neurology rotation
*headwall*

My record has been with a trauma surgeon, in which we did on/off rounding all day because we kept getting traumas in the way. I didnt finish officially rounding until 9pm, started 8am or so. He had a PA so all the discharges got discharged with him seeing them, but the few stayovers got seen at night, but then again he saw a lot of his patients at night, so his schedule was mainly at night.

Then one time we rounded on IM with this cardiologist who did 3 caths in between rounds, so we started at 8am and didnt leave til like 7-8pm, of course the on call person left at 1pm or so, so we had to wing it on his patients.

I didnt mind the trauma surgeons cause he can't choose when the traumas come in, but the cardiologist was part of a group who could have had coverage during those times, but then again I'm not the cardiologist so maybe he had good reasons.
 
My record for rounding: 6 hours on my neurology rotation
*headwall*

After two hours I start paging myself so I have an excuse to walk away for a while.
 
Man, I scared you once... hopefully I don't scare you again. :meanie:

Yes, especially as a subintern, you're expected to preround on your patients. You shouldn't wait to be asked. "Your patients" varies between rotations, as does what you're expected to do as part of your prerounding.

At my school, on surgery "my patients" was all patients on the service, but the expectation was only that I had numbers (vital signs, meaning ranges over the last 24h, trends if there was a lot of variation or an intervention, or in any unit patient), had done a very quick exam (laid eyes on, pressed on the belly, made sure limbs were warm sort of thing, + "passed any gas" "had a bowel movement" "any nausea, vomiting, constipation diarrhea, chest pain, shortness of breath?"). Took about 2 minutes per patient. I would write my notes as a I went or on the elevators, but usually had them done before the intern showed up (about five minutes before rounds). Would then scribe the plan as we rounded.

On medicine and neurology, "my patients" were the 3-10 patients I was following. I was expected to know a lot more about the patients, have done a very complete exam, and have a far more extensive note written before rounds, and come up with a plan. Takes about 10-20 minutes per patient (depending on how long I had more than anything else, but also if I didn't know what to do I would read up on it so I had a plan).

I wouldn't write "cheat sheets" if you can get away with it -- it takes time. I always presented from my note. One of my medicine attendings wanted all the notes in the chart before rounds, so I'd just photocopy them.

Some students think prerounding is useless scut, but prerounding is the best defense against DISCOVERY ROUNDS. That's when you're rounding and you find the patient "went missing" last night and hasn't reappeared, or wasn't preoped, or hasn't been beta blocked because the nurse didn't feel comfortable... or whatever. This tends to result in the intern looking bad (which is bad for you, because your job is to keep your intern looking like a star), the chief resident loosing their ****, and rounds draging on for a really really long time as the intern is chewed out for every single bad thing discovered on rounds... Not only is this boring after a while, but it adds at least 2 minutes per patient, usually more, while everyone figures out what is going on.

And, you get to take part in making the plan, because you're the first one to actually see the patients. Just make sure you know what to do at the hospital you're at if you find a patient in extremis, and your intern will appreciate knowing about anything abnormal before you present it on rounds i(so and so spiked a fever, yes cultures were drawn, no nothing is back yet; the guy in 62 is fine; pt in 83 didn't get his CT head last night but is scheduled for this a.m., no I didn't call but I'll do that now, yessir I know I should already have done it; &c .)

As far as how much time you will take per patient, try to get at least two-three patients assigned to you your first day assuming you're not on call, write some of your note the night before, and plan 45 minutes per patient since you'll be figuring out where labs are and such. Worst comes to worst, you'll be hanging out for a bit before rounds and you might be able to help your intern out with some scut. You can then adjust as necessary.

Best,
Anka
 
(which is bad for you, because your job is to keep your intern looking like a star),

:laugh:

Spoken like a true intern. Thank goodness you've clarified the purpose of my 35K worth of tuition money!

While I agree with a lot of what Anka says, the job of a medical student is not to keep your intern looking like a star. Your job is to be a good medical student and take care of the patient and LEARN. No one actually expects you to do the impossible!!!

(As a side note, a good medical student WILL make the intern look like a star)
 
:laugh:

Spoken like a true intern.

I'm trying to get in practice for next year. In addition to speaking like an intern, I've also been practicing my scowl in the mirror and stocking up on K-Y.

Anka
 
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