Letter of Intent v. Second Look?

[Geraltofrivia]

I have wrapped up most of my interviews, although I did not get as many as I hoped I am definitely happy with the places that I did interview at. I have a solid #1 program in mind but don't know how to set up a second look or whether a letter of intent will make any difference. The more I think about this program and picture myself there, the happier I know I will be and ecstatic I know I will be to wake up in the morning and put my best foot forward. Not matching there will definitely be sad but not the end of the world, although it will certainly feel like it.

I know it's only "mid-to-late" season right now, but I'm wondering whether sending a Letter of Intent or just a letter expressing my continued interest in that program right now is too early? Is there any significance of a Letter of Intent vs. a Second Look?

Thank you for your help, to all people who reply.

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[splik]

if youve already decided its your #1 why would you need to do a second look? second looks are if you aren't sure about something or didnt get to see everything the first time, or want to explore the city more. it doesnt curry favor with the program, from our perspective its a nuisance. only do a second look if you're not sure and need more info before making your rank list. most programs couldn't give a **** about your letter of intent (but some definitely do). you shouldn't send such letters until youve finished all your interviews. january is usually a good time.

 

[Geraltofrivia]

if youve already decided its your #1 why would you need to do a second look? second looks are if you aren't sure about something or didnt get to see everything the first time, or want to explore the city more. it doesnt curry favor with the program, from our perspective its a nuisance. only do a second look if you're not sure and need more info before making your rank list. most programs couldn't give a **** about your letter of intent (but some definitely do). you shouldn't send such letters until youve finished all your interviews. january is usually a good time.

I was under the impression that Second Looks give allow the applicant to leave a fresh impression in the eyes of the program and assuming it goes well, makes a positive difference...?

 

[splik]

I was under the impression that Second Looks give allow the applicant to leave a fresh impression in the eyes of the program and assuming it goes well, makes a positive difference...?

sigh...it takes a lot of work to arrange a second look. it's a nuisance. programs are willing to accommodate this in particular cases (for example you're not sure about moving there and are going to have a look, you're gonna bring your partner to check out the city, you didn't get to see a specific site, there are specific faculty that you want to meet you didn't get to last time, you're research track and you didn't get to meet the PIs you'd want to work with etc.) None of this is going to make a positive difference. If anything it may come across negatively.

 

[DrSatan]

I've had several places offer a second look, so maybe don't ask for one if they haven't put it out there. Or do if you are unsure about the place because you should probably find out before setting your match list.

 

[kzbt624]

I am returning to a city that has my #1 in it to show it to my partner. I had planned to let the program know as a way of showing interest but it didn't even cross my mind that it could be a negative thing...

 

[splik]

I am returning to a city that has my #1 in it to show it to my partner. I had planned to let the program know as a way of showing interest but it didn't even cross my mind that it could be a negative thing...

Yes, second looks as a way of "showing interest" is a negative for most programs (im sure there are exceptions). You applied, you interviewed, you sent your thank you letters. that's interest plenty enough. Second looks should be done for your own personal decision making only and not to "show interest".

 

[Geraltofrivia]

sigh...it takes a lot of work to arrange a second look. it's a nuisance. programs are willing to accommodate this in particular cases (for example you're not sure about moving there and are going to have a look, you're gonna bring your partner to check out the city, you didn't get to see a specific site, there are specific faculty that you want to meet you didn't get to last time, you're research track and you didn't get to meet the PIs you'd want to work with etc.) None of this is going to make a positive difference. If anything it may come across negatively.

Hm. Thanks for this perspective, it never crossed my mind. So then writing an email expressing my interest in that program and my intent to rank that program #1 is a better way use of my time and theirs?

 

[raisinbrain]

Yes, second looks as a way of "showing interest" is a negative for most programs (im sure there are exceptions). You applied, you interviewed, you sent your thank you letters. that's interest plenty enough. Second looks should be done for your own personal decision making only and not to "show interest".

Thanks for sharing, as I hadn't put as much thought into the negatives.

I've only heard two programs in person talking about second looks, and actively encouraging them. One has a date scheduled every year for second looks and the residents and faculty alike sounded excited when talking about it, so I can only assume that it wouldn't be viewed as a negative for attending this day (or so I would hope!). I liked the idea of attending since it's in my top two currently and my significant other (who has considerable say in 'our' match process, within reason) has never been to the area. But it sounds like this setup of second looks is far from the norm.

 

[When is graduation again?]

Thanks for sharing, as I hadn't put as much thought into the negatives.

I've only heard two programs in person talking about second looks, and actively encouraging them. One has a date scheduled every year for second looks and the residents and faculty alike sounded excited when talking about it, so I can only assume that it wouldn't be viewed as a negative for attending this day (or so I would hope!). I liked the idea of attending since it's in my top two currently and my significant other (who has considerable say in 'our' match process, within reason) has never been to the area. But it sounds like this setup of second looks is far from the norm.

I've been to a few programs that offer a set date for 2nd looks. One of the programs had a PD who clearly didn't like 2nd looks but offered the date as a way to curb a ton of applicants all asking for different days. The other programs that mentioned it seemed to also be less than keen on the idea but understood why ppl would want a 2nd look. A few mentioned directly it had no effect on their applicant rankings.

 

[psychattending]

Hm. Thanks for this perspective, it never crossed my mind. So then writing an email expressing my interest in that program and my intent to rank that program #1 is a better way use of my time and theirs?

Yes, writing an email is more than adequate and a better use of everybody's time.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

I have heard PDs vent about how the odds of someone asking for a second look being inversely proportional to the strength of the candidate. Most of us are pleased to set these up for candidates we are excited about, but it is a burden in general.

I once had a landlord call me for an employment verification before the match. Now that shows confidence. Maybe you could get your room mates to pretend to be landlords and call coordinators just to confirm that this will be the right number to call after the match. Now that would demonstrate interest. 😉

 

[OldPsychDoc]

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

 

[boogaaloo]

if youve already decided its your #1 why would you need to do a second look? second looks are if you aren't sure about something or didnt get to see everything the first time, or want to explore the city more. it doesnt curry favor with the program, from our perspective its a nuisance. only do a second look if you're not sure and need more info before making your rank list. most programs couldn't give a **** about your letter of intent (but some definitely do). you shouldn't send such letters until youve finished all your interviews. january is usually a good time.

Very untrue. Lots of people who do second look get ranked higher than they were before.

 

[Geraltofrivia]

Very untrue. Lots of people who do second look get ranked higher than they were before.

I may be mistaken however I believe splik is either a PD or faculty at a training program.

 

[Geraltofrivia]

Yes, writing an email is more than adequate and a better use of everybody's time.

Thank you. I will probably send a letter of intent via email then once rank order lists are open

 

[Evidence Based]

I may be mistaken however I believe splik is either a PD or faculty at a training program.

There have been multiple PDs (psych attending, OPD, MacDonaldTriad) on this and other threads giving the same advice as splik and saying to please not do a 2nd look just to make yourself look good.

 

[PsychApplicant18]

While I completely understand that organizing second looks is a lot of work, I think doing a second look was extremely beneficial for me when I was choosing medical schools. It helped me get a vibe of the program without being distracted by the stress of interviews. Its a little frustrating that optional second looks are not organized and made available to students, and that it is looked down upon when students ask, since we are about to decide where we want to spend the next four years of our lives. Even if some students may try to use it as an opportunity to be ranked higher, I personally would use it as a way to help me make my decision. It would be particularly helpful to return to programs at which I only met one or two residents and I would like to meet more to get a sense of how I would fit in with the resident community.

 

[Champylobacter]

But if you make it something that helps at all, then everyone would feel like they need to do it for their #1, then #2, etc. The only way around this is to make an ACGME requirement that programs are not allowed to increase applicants' rank for doing a second look, to cut this sort of thing off before it starts.

 

[splik]

But if you make it something that helps at all, then everyone would feel like they need to do it for their #1, then #2, etc. The only way around this is to make an ACGME requirement that programs are not allowed to increase applicants' rank for doing a second look, to cut this sort of thing off before it starts.

that would be completely unenforceable. secondly the ACGME has no jurisdiction over how residency programs rank medical students, perhaps you mean NRMP, but still unenforceable. I can tell you most programs won't rank you higher for doing a second look any way. as alluded to above its usually the ones we don't want to see again who come back like a bad smell

 

[PsychApplicant18]

that would be completely unenforceable. secondly the ACGME has no jurisdiction over how residency programs rank medical students, perhaps you mean NRMP, but still unenforceable. I can tell you most programs won't rank you higher for doing a second look any way. as alluded to above its usually the ones we don't want to see again who come back like a bad smell

Thanks for your comments, and I always appreciate your amazing advice on this forum. While I definitely get the PD perspective, isn't it the applicants (who genuinely wants to get a sense of the program outside of the interview stress) the one who suffers? Its hard for me to really relax and get a sense of the school with all the adrenaline pumping and it helps a lot with the decision making to just hang out with the residents after you've seen all the programs. I decided my medical school mainly on how I felt at the second look, not at the interview day. Therefore, I'm just sad I don't have the opportunity to do that this time around.

 

[PsychApplicant18]

But if you make it something that helps at all, then everyone would feel like they need to do it for their #1, then #2, etc. The only way around this is to make an ACGME requirement that programs are not allowed to increase applicants' rank for doing a second look, to cut this sort of thing off before it starts.

I hear what you're saying, but it feels unfair that it punishes the med students who genuinely want to learn about the program. Its confusing that we are making such a huge life and career decision and we aren't given the opportunity to come back to really evaluate the fit and ask questions we may have been scared to ask at interview day. Plus, if I saw a program 2 months ago at the beginning of interview season there was a lot I probably didn't even know to ask. I would really benefit form returning to that program to ask these questions and compare the vibe to the other programs I have since visited.

 

[splik]

Thanks for your comments, and I always appreciate your amazing advice on this forum. While I definitely get the PD perspective, isn't it the applicants (who genuinely wants to get a sense of the program outside of the interview stress) the one who suffers? Its hard for me to really relax and get a sense of the school with all the adrenaline pumping and it helps a lot with the decision making to just hang out with the residents after you've seen all the programs. I decided my medical school mainly on how I felt at the second look, not at the interview day. Therefore, I'm just sad I don't have the opportunity to do that this time around.

Not really. You can do a second look if you want to. The point is, people should not do it to express/show interest but because they genuinely need that second look to help determine their rank list. No one will fault you for the latter. But not encouraging second looks protects applicants from feeling that they have to waste even more money on this process, which would disadvantage poorer and minority applicants.

 

[PsychApplicant18]

Not really. You can do a second look if you want to. The point is, people should not do it to express/show interest but because they genuinely need that second look to help determine their rank list. No one will fault you for the latter. But not encouraging second looks protects applicants from feeling that they have to waste even more money on this process, which would disadvantage poorer and minority applicants.

Yeah that makes sense. I guess I was just responding to prior comments saying that PDs would actually get annoyed if you ask. There are one or two programs in particularly that I think I would really benefit from seeing again since I didn't get as much out of my interview day, but definitely liked things about the program. However, I'm nervous to ask and then actually negatively impact my ranking-- thats the part thats a little frustrating

 

[boogaaloo]

I may be mistaken however I believe splik is either a PD or faculty at a training program.

No he's not. That's just the appearance he gives you. I think he just graduated from a forensic fellowship.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Yeah that makes sense. I guess I was just responding to prior comments saying that PDs would actually get annoyed if you ask. There are one or two programs in particularly that I think I would really benefit from seeing again since I didn't get as much out of my interview day, but definitely liked things about the program. However, I'm nervous to ask and then actually negatively impact my ranking-- thats the part thats a little frustrating

Asking would not negatively impact your ranking, especially if you're clear about wanting specific information, wanting to meet specific people you missed, wanting to visit the area with an SO, etc. We just want to make clear on our end that the interviews are OVER, and it's probably not going to affect your ranking that much--unless you're obnoxious about it, then we might change our minds! And as splik said, programs really generally feel that these are an excessive financial and time burden on the applicants, so we don't explicitly offer them. (It's also a burden on the program staff who have to schedule them...so if you must ask, be really, really nice to them!)

 

[psychattending]

Yeah that makes sense. I guess I was just responding to prior comments saying that PDs would actually get annoyed if you ask. There are one or two programs in particularly that I think I would really benefit from seeing again since I didn't get as much out of my interview day, but definitely liked things about the program. However, I'm nervous to ask and then actually negatively impact my ranking-- thats the part thats a little frustrating

Asking a program about doing a second interview is not necessarily bad. However, my expectation is that the applicant give me a specific list of things that he/she is trying to find out; so that we can try to get that person the information that he/she wants on their second visit. This means that he/she will likely be seeing people and things that he/she did not see on his/her first trip (and not seeing me, the chairman, the assistant PD).

 

[Celexa]

Thanks for your comments, and I always appreciate your amazing advice on this forum. While I definitely get the PD perspective, isn't it the applicants (who genuinely wants to get a sense of the program outside of the interview stress) the one who suffers? Its hard for me to really relax and get a sense of the school with all the adrenaline pumping and it helps a lot with the decision making to just hang out with the residents after you've seen all the programs. I decided my medical school mainly on how I felt at the second look, not at the interview day. Therefore, I'm just sad I don't have the opportunity to do that this time around.

For medical school you've already been accepted. The match is completely different, and I'm a little surprised you think you'd be so much more relaxed at a second look. My behavior at a second look (I currently don't plan to go to one) would probably be completely the same professional self, and at the same stress level, as it was on interview day because you're essentially offering yourself up for a second round of evaluation pre-rank list. Anything you do or say would be fair game as the program determines if you're someone they want to work with for 4 years (as the comments above clearly imply!).

 

[Amygdarya]

Asking a program about doing a second interview is not necessarily bad. However, my expectation is that the applicant give me a specific list of things that he/she is trying to find out; so that we can try to get that person the information that he/she wants on their second visit. This means that he/she will likely be seeing people and things that he/she did not see on his/her first trip (and not seeing me, the chairman, the assistant PD).

In their interview day packet Mount Sinai (main campus) included information about requesting a second look stating that second looks may be requested by contacting chief resident and that PD and aPD won't know about anyone requesting a second look to ensure that second looks don't affect ranking, which made perfect sense to me.

 

[PsychApplicant18]

In their interview day packet Mount Sinai (main campus) included information about requesting a second look stating that second looks may be requested by contacting chief resident and that PD and aPD won't know about anyone requesting a second look to ensure that second looks don't affect ranking, which made perfect sense to me.

OO thats amazing!!