Letter of Rec

[twiggers]

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Quick question....

I'm currently doing research at one lab but on two different projects with two different PIs. I am asking each one for a letter of rec....is that a good thing? Both are female, professors of psychiatry at med school, and very well known in neurodevelopmental research (specifically autism).
My third letter will be coming from either another female, associate professor of psychology doing social developmental research.
I may possibly switch her with a male, associate professor of psychology (with a degree in clinical) that does cultural, community research and will be my honors advisor.
I also have the option of having a female, newly graduated from masters program in developmental psych write one.
I can also have a male, clinical psych graduate, who is the supervisor of my research projects regarding autism write one.

What do you think would be best options? I've heard some people say not to get them all from one sex, and try to get from your own field (unfortunately my school doesn't have a clinical program).

I'll be approaching these people in early November to begin writing. I may just ask all of them so I have backups in case one of them flakes out. But I'm curious to see which 3 you guys would pick to submit.

 

[Hammer]

Get them from the people who know you the best and will say nice things.

Sex and field do not matter at all.

Letters can only hurt you. They don't help you. Just another thing to do.

Ask them if you can have a copy. If not, stay away from that person.

 

[Kushkeeee]

Get them from the people who know you the best and will say nice things.

Sex and field do not matter at all.

Letters can only hurt you. They don't help you. Just another thing to do.

Ask them if you can have a copy. If not, stay away from that person.

In what way could a "recommendation letter" hurt you? The purpose of a recommendation letter is so that you will be recommended for a particular program by a person within the field. Why would anyone even agree to write a recommendation letter if they weren't going to "recommend" a student be accepted? It makes no sense.

 

[Hammer]

Think again. A bad letter might kill you. I write these all the time. I write both good and bad. The student doesn't know which. The key is to get a copy.

Letters will only help you if a member of the admissions committee knows the other person. This happens more than you might expect.

90% of the time, no one even reads them. The gut feeling is if a person can't get 3 people to say good things, they are a stinker. I have found that not to be the case.

The purpose of the letter is to tell the truth.

 

[purpledoc]

In what way could a "recommendation letter" hurt you? The purpose of a recommendation letter is so that you will be recommended for a particular program by a person within the field. Why would anyone even agree to write a recommendation letter if they weren't going to "recommend" a student be accepted? It makes no sense.

I agree, it makes no sense. There are rare exceptions, such as the odd person who believes that since they were asked, it is their right and duty to write "the truth" regardless of what the person believed they would write. (This reminds me of someone I know who said they have a friend who purposely annoys people by moving into the fast lane and driving exactly at the speed limit, just because it's his right to do so.)

It is best to ask -- in a very nice and understanding tone of voice -- "Do you think you could honestly write me a strongly positive recommendation letter, or do you think it might be better if I ask someone else?" By stressing the "honestly" and "strongly positive," and implying that you do have other people to ask (even if you're not sure who the heck that will be), you are giving the person an "out" -- they can let you know they are uncomfortable writing a positive letter without worrying that you'll be angry and/or devastated by this. It will protect you from the people who would write you either very negative or just mediocre letters, unless they dislike you so much they purposely lie.

While looking at a copy of a letter may be nice, some places have the writer sign a paper stating that you did not see a copy before the letter was sent. Also, some people may feel that showing you a copy before the letter is sent is just an imposition on them, and you'd rather not annoy the person who's taking the time to do you a favor. But, a properly worded, very polite question regarding this can go far.

Good luck!

 

[lazure]

In what way could a "recommendation letter" hurt you?

Many ways, my friend. If the letter is 'good' but not 'very good' that tends to serve as a big red flag to the committee. My understanding is that most professors who give a negative evaluation will not do so explicitly but will say so 'between the lines'.

I agree with the idea of asking the prof whether s/he can write a 'strong' LOR - as soon as you see any hesitation, say thank you and ask someone else....

I had an experience where a supervisor wrote me a strong evaluation at the end of my research experience in his lab. Six months later I asked for a LOR and was astonished to find out that he did not think I was that good after all but he was unable to formulate specific reasons. Although this was unpleasant for me, I appreciated his honesty.

Also, be aware that the name, experience and research interests of the prof in question do matter how much weight their LOR is given by the people reading the LOR. In Canada, we are not allowed to see the letters at all......(personally I hate this policy). 😡

 

[JRB]

Fact is, you cannot predict when a LOR will be seen as important or not. Professors will have differing opinions regarding the LOR. I place some weight on them in my decision making, and a bad one could definitely hurt someone. It is also true that without any LORs, one would wonder why.

Purpledoc makes a very solid recommendation when SHE (I'm reminding us all to be careful regarding assumptions) suggests that you ask first if the person can write a positive letter. I personally would never agree to write a LOR if I know ahead of time it will be negative, and I am upfront with the student about it.


JRB

 

[twiggers]

Thanks for the advice. I'll be doing all of this end of Oct. beginning of Nov. that way I leave myself a little bit of time in case something doesn't work out right.,

What about asking fellow grad students to write one? Or someone who has finished a masters program but is not teaching? Or should I just focus on profs? I know most of the schools state that 2 of the 3 must be professors.
Also.....two of my letter writers are profs at med school (which is part of my university, but I am obviously not in med school and they have never taught me, just supervised me) will that matter at all?

 

[JRB]

Thanks for the advice. I'll be doing all of this end of Oct. beginning of Nov. that way I leave myself a little bit of time in case something doesn't work out right.,

What about asking fellow grad students to write one? Or someone who has finished a masters program but is not teaching? Or should I just focus on profs? I know most of the schools state that 2 of the 3 must be professors.
Also.....two of my letter writers are profs at med school (which is part of my university, but I am obviously not in med school and they have never taught me, just supervised me) will that matter at all?

To be honest, I probably wouldn't place much weight on a fellow grad student letter or the master's degree'd person, unless they taught you or worked with you in a supervisory capacity. The letters from the professors at the med school would probably be okay, depending on the nature of their supervision.

Ideally, your LORs should address things such as scholarship/academic potential (do they think you can handle the curriculum), research skills/critical thinking skills, and attitude/conscientiousness/interpersonal skills.

Sometimes, students simply don't have a professor that knows them well enough to address all three. I have written LORs for students that I knew of in areas other than their previous academics, so I asked for a vita or summary of their accomplishments to help me shape my letter. I prefer a student provide information for me; it makes writing the letter much easier and can allow me to note or emphasize something that I may not have known.


JRB

 

[twiggers]

Thanks JRB...the master degree person has just taken me on to be the head of a specific coding team within the overall research lab. The two from the med school I interact with on a very limited basis, and I am imagining that they may ask others for input, etc. when writing letters...but I do know from other students in the lab that they will write letters.
I have every intention of submitting a CV with my request, as well as a copy of my transcripts so they can see my academic progress.

Do those of you who receive requests get scared by the clinical ones? Each clinical program has it's own forms to fill out...so I would need to be giving each of my letter writers a package for each school..probably totalling around 15-20 schools.
Any advice on making it easier for them (aside from the typical organizational aspects)?

 

[Annakei]

Thanks JRB...the master degree person has just taken me on to be the head of a specific coding team within the overall research lab. The two from the med school I interact with on a very limited basis, and I am imagining that they may ask others for input, etc. when writing letters...but I do know from other students in the lab that they will write letters.
I have every intention of submitting a CV with my request, as well as a copy of my transcripts so they can see my academic progress.

Do those of you who receive requests get scared by the clinical ones? Each clinical program has it's own forms to fill out...so I would need to be giving each of my letter writers a package for each school..probably totalling around 15-20 schools.
Any advice on making it easier for them (aside from the typical organizational aspects)?

I just wanted to bring this topic up again because I am in this position. I plan to apply to about 15 programs and I know that my recommenders will be writing recommendations for other students/employees as well. Do I just get one recommendation that is generically (is that a word ) addressed? Twiggers what did you do?

Also, would you recommend I see the recs before sending them off to make sure I send off the best? I plan to ask aout 3-4 profs just in case one flakes or gives me a bad rec. Im nervous because Ive been at my current position for 9 months and will be asking the research psychologist who heads our agency to write me a recommendation. I only interact with her on a weekly basis at our team meetings so I am thinking if she agrees that she will be asking my supervisor (LICSW) for input..

thoughts??

 

[sunny22]

I just wanted to bring this topic up again because I am in this position. I plan to apply to about 15 programs and I know that my recommenders will be writing recommendations for other students/employees as well. Do I just get one recommendation that is generically (is that a word ) addressed? Twiggers what did you do?

Also, would you recommend I see the recs before sending them off to make sure I send off the best? I plan to ask aout 3-4 profs just in case one flakes or gives me a bad rec. Im nervous because Ive been at my current position for 9 months and will be asking the research psychologist who heads our agency to write me a recommendation. I only interact with her on a weekly basis at our team meetings so I am thinking if she agrees that she will be asking my supervisor (LICSW) for input..

thoughts??

I had this same concern when I was applying last year. I found, though, that all of my recommenders who agreed, understood that they would have to write 15 different letters, and change the relevant information. I started by asking each of my recommenders what would work best for them. At my undergraduate institution, they had a reference letter center where professors could send a generic letter and the center would send them out, which is not optimal, but certainly an option, as I think many educational institutions have this option for students and alumni. It is awkward, but I think that you will find that many people are fully aware of what they are committing to if they agree to write your letter.

Good luck!

 

[psych101]

I agree completely with purpledoc's suggestion of asking writers if they know enough about you to write strongly positive letters -- follow that advice as it is worded in the post above. gives them an "out" and makes it more likely that you'll get better letters. As far as # of letters, faculty will understand that when you're asking for letters for grad school that they'll have to write a bunch. Several assured me that it's no big deal, they just change the relevant info and reprint it a bunch of times. Non-faculty letter writers (e.g., supervisors, those in other professions) may or may not be aware of this, but you can always offer to help as much as they're willing to let you (i.e., fill out envelopes, give them well-organized lists and deadline dates, offer to have them forward you the letter and let you print it changing info as appropriate and returning it to them for signatures). As far as asking to see the letters, my take is that it's best not to ask and it's best to check the box that says you waive the right to review them. That way the writer feels like they can be honest and programs feel like the writer was able to respond freely without pressure. However, most helpful letter writers will offer to let you read it or give you a copy. Letters DO matter in an application. And many people enclose at least one extra letter beyond what the application requires...annoying but I guess it can help in some cases.

 

[JatPenn]

Quick question....

I'm currently doing research at one lab but on two different projects with two different PIs. I am asking each one for a letter of rec....is that a good thing? Both are female, professors of psychiatry at med school, and very well known in neurodevelopmental research (specifically autism).
My third letter will be coming from either another female, associate professor of psychology doing social developmental research.
I may possibly switch her with a male, associate professor of psychology (with a degree in clinical) that does cultural, community research and will be my honors advisor.
I also have the option of having a female, newly graduated from masters program in developmental psych write one.
I can also have a male, clinical psych graduate, who is the supervisor of my research projects regarding autism write one.



What do you think would be best options? I've heard some people say not to get them all from one sex, and try to get from your own field (unfortunately my school doesn't have a clinical program).

I'll be approaching these people in early November to begin writing. I may just ask all of them so I have backups in case one of them flakes out. But I'm curious to see which 3 you guys would pick to submit.

I think I've seen you say you're at ND. That means your autism supervisor must be Tom Whitman, a freakin great guy. Just wanted to throw that in (ND grad here).