Letters of Recommendation and Questions

[LightReaver]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Hey guys. I'm new to the whole forum thing. Hopefully some of you can answer some of my questions.

First off, I plan on applying to at least a few vet schools in the fall (hopefully in the summer sometime, when the applications open). I am a senior who works at a clinic, volunteers at the zoo hospital, and takes classes (obviously). It looks like I won't be able to graduate with a Biology degree until December (not graduating this spring).

I wanted to let the people from whom I wanted recommendations to know by April or May that I needed their letters by June. The problem is, I know two vets to ask (one from work and one from the zoo*), but no teachers. For some reason I have avoided going to teachers regularly to try to get to know them. I have visited some of them, but only a couple of times. I guess I have just never needed their input or had any questions. Now I realize that the third letter is most likely going to have to be from a teacher, and I'm worried. My Cell Physiology teacher seems like she could write a good letter and has mentioned doing it before, but there's a problem. She is a real hard*ss. She is from Poland, and she hates what she considers "stupid people". I like to think of myself as a decently smart person, but I'm not quite sure how to approach her.

I know many people have long-term relationships with their teachers, but it just hasn't worked for me. For those of you who have or have gotten letter from them, can you give me some tips on how to approach this problem? Another problem is that I only have less than a semester to get to know her well enough to ask. I realize I have dug myself in a hole in this aspect, but any information you guys have would be greatly appreciated.

* On a side note: The zoo hospital at which I volunteer has 3 vets that work there, all of whom I have met before, and I talk to at least one of them a little bit every week. For the letter from the zoo, is it possible for them to write a letter collectively for me, or should I have one write it, then have them all sign it, or what?

Thanks for your help!

 

[Angelo84]

I would ask the professor if she can write you a strong letter of recommendation. If she says no ask someone else. Do you have any smallish classes that the professor might know you in?

 

[tpad40]

Hi and welcome!

One thing to consider, you do not need to get your recs done by June. Even if you want to submit your apps very early (good for you, I was very last minute ), the eLORs can be submitted at a later date. This may give you more time to build a bit of a relationship with a teacher.

My other advice is to provide your letter writers with as much info as possible especially those who don't know you as well. For my academic rec I gave her a resume which outlined all of my vet experience as well as provided my transcripts. Yes, it was a little awkward (I obsessed over it for a while), but it worked out!

I think find a prof that at least knows who you are and in whose class you performed well. Profs get asked to write MANY recs and they are used to writing for people who might not have been the student who came to every office hour. Don't fret, I am sure that there are at least a few profs who'd be more than happy to support your pursuit!

Good luck!

 

[nyanko]

My other advice is to provide your letter writers with as much info as possible especially those who don't know you as well. For my academic rec I gave her a resume which outlined all of my vet experience as well as provided my transcripts. Yes, it was a little awkward (I obsessed over it for a while), but it worked out!

This is very good advice, and very important. A professor whose class you did well in often knows nothing more about you than that you did well in the class. They can't really write that good of a rec letter based on that - so make up a little information packet about who you are and what your goals are and how their class related to the goals, etc. One of the professors I had write a rec letter for me for grad school actually gave me a packet to fill out with some short answer questions and such so she could write a good letter (can you tell I was in a major with a lot of pre-meds? 😉 ).

 

[EqSci]

I was in the same situation as you, I had never really gotten to know any one teacher. I ended up asking my "advisor" (I put into quotes because I haven't spoken to anyone about classes/vet school/etc since freshman year) who is also the professor that I had for the most classes. I had never gotten to know him personally but I knew that he knew my face. I explained that a LOR from a prof was required by Penn and asked if he'd be willing to write me one. He agreed, but asked me to send him my resume.

I e-mailed him my resume with a short paragraph explaining what my goals were and where I intended to appy, and also stressed that if he had any questions or wondered anything about me, to please feel free to ask. I also made sure my attendence was excellent in his class that semester. 😉 Oh, and I sent him a hand-written thank you card after he submitted it.

Pick someone that knows your face if not you personally, and also make sure that person has experience writing LORs for vet school... or at least is familiar with the process of applying to vet school. You don't want someone who has no idea how hard it is to get in or what qualities they look for.

 

[rugbychick16]

Keep in mind that VMCAS Reccs are written online, so they can't actually write them for you til the website opens in June. Take a couple months and get to know those writing recommendations for you better, then ask them sometime in June, giving them time in the summer to write (usually a less busy time). And yes, the reccs can be submitted after you submit your app, so they will have plenty of time.

 

[Skillet9886]

I agree with giving resumes, etc. I also gave that information to the vets who wrote my letters. They definitely knew me better than the professor, but they still didn't know everything, so I made sure that they had as much information about me as they could want.

Like some other have said, think about a small-ish class that you may have taken, one where the professor would at least know your face. Also, I would be hesitant to ask a professor for a rec letter if I didn't get an A in their class(es). That's not a rule, though, that's just me. That person is supposed to vouch for your academic abilities, so make sure you did your best in their course.

Another thing that I might add is that I would try to register for a class that professor is offering for the fall. Maybe it won't have as much impact if you get the letter in June, but I didn't get my application going until late summer/early fall. I think it helped that my professor saw my face every week while she was writing the letter. It would have also been very useful had she not been as on top of things as she was. If that letter wasn't in by the middle of September, I would have wanted to be able to find her easily without tracking her down across campus.

 

[GellaBella]

Is there any way you can get involved in a research project? If you got involved now and worked through the summer that would provide plenty of interaction with a professor who could then comment on your classwork as well as your abilities to perform research

 

[karmapple]

Is there any way you can get involved in a research project? If you got involved now and worked through the summer that would provide plenty of interaction with a professor who could then comment on your classwork as well as your abilities to perform research

That's what I did. Such a good idea. That way you are killing two birds with one stone: getting research experience and building a relationship with a professor who can write you a personal and genuine letter. Maybe even three stones if you can learn more about a subject you are really interested in!

 

[smm482]

While we're on the subject of eLOR's, is it appropriate to ask your undergraduate adviser to write you a letter or recommendation if they are not a professor? I plan to ask the equine vet that I interned with for 6 months as well as the nutritional consultant (PhD) that I did swine research with for 2 Summers. I am undecided to ask for the third. I saw someone mentioned that Penn requires one letter from a professor? If that is the case, then I will ask a professor but I feel like my adviser knows me a lot better. Thoughts?

 

[EqSci]

Sorry, by professor I meant academic source. I believe that's how they word it, and yes I think it's Penn if I remember correctly (and some others). So I would think that your advisor is perfectly fine!

 

[OnceBitten]

I think the idea to get into a lab and start doing research in order to get familiar with a professor who could write you an excellent recommendation later is a great one.

However, if that doesn't work out, definitely make up a resume and general information packet about yourself. In especially large classes at my school, where the professors could never get to know everyone or spend a substantial amount of time with any one student due to tending to 200+ others, the professors often tell the class to speak with them privately about recommendation letters. Some want you to have a specific grade before they'll do it, others want you to come to office hours X number of times so they have a chance to speak with you personally and get a feel for your personality before they do it, and others just want a resume before they do it. It might be beneficial to pick out the professor of your choice, ask what their personal policy on writing recommendation letters for students is, and give him/her your resume and information packet. They're usually more than willing to work with you, but, if they're not, it's just one less-than-stellar recommendation letter that you don't have to worry about. 😉

 

[LightReaver]

Hey yall, thanks alot for your input! I went to the teacher I had last semester for Comparative Vertebrate Anatomy. He recognized me because it was a fairly small class (and I sat right in front of him every class). We had a good conversation about alot of things for about 15-20 minutes. He is doing research on snakes at the moment, and I think if I could work with him, that would be great! However, I'm not sure if I'll have alot of time with classes, more work in the summer, volunteering, and preparing more for the GRE (plus Biology GRE test for OSU). I'm not even sure how to aproach him about maybe wanting to be in his lab.

Also, what do yall think about the zoo doctors and the letter from there? (See original post)

Thanks guys! 😀

 

[robeezy08]

Hey yall, thanks alot for your input! I went to the teacher I had last semester for Comparative Vertebrate Anatomy. He recognized me because it was a fairly small class (and I sat right in front of him every class). We had a good conversation about alot of things for about 15-20 minutes. He is doing research on snakes at the moment, and I think if I could work with him, that would be great! However, I'm not sure if I'll have alot of time with classes, more work in the summer, volunteering, and preparing more for the GRE (plus Biology GRE test for OSU). I'm not even sure how to aproach him about maybe wanting to be in his lab.

Also, what do yall think about the zoo doctors and the letter from there? (See original post)

Thanks guys! 😀

Hi LightReaver! Are you asking if you should submit a committee letter from your zoo vs. a letter from a prof? I'm not sure vet schools will accept a committee letter unless its from a pre-health program, but someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Either way, I'd def suggest one prof write you a strong letter of recommendation b/c it will support how strong of an academic candidate you really are!
You could do 2 letters from SA/LA vets, 1 letter prof and then mail the additional letter from a zoo vet. Some schools may not accept 4 LORs so be sure to check requirements from each school.

 

[justinpaws]

That's what I did. Such a good idea. That way you are killing two birds with one stone: getting research experience and building a relationship with a professor who can write you a personal and genuine letter. Maybe even three stones if you can learn more about a subject you are really interested in!

While this is a really good idea on many levels, it can also fail horribly. I know a lot of pre-meds who just needed research experience, and more importantly the letter of rec that they thought was guaranteed to come out of it, so they joined my lab for a little while, were completely unmotivated and did bad work, left, and then came back asking for a LOR. Then when they were denied one (basically they were told "you're not going to get a good one, I would ask someone else"), they got really pissed off about it. That's such bad character; I overhear the grad students and professors bitching about these students all the time. That's when it becomes a huge waste of your time and their time. Since it seems that you don't have much time left until you get your degree either, a professor might question your dedication, and some won't even take you on in their labs unless they know you're willing to commit for at least a good amount of time. Don't get me wrong, I'm really not implying that you're going to be one of these horrible pre-meds, I'm just saying...it can really backfire!

Here's kind of a new suggestion, though: make sure to do really well in a class, ask occasional insightful (not annoying!) and opportune questions during lecture, SIT IN FRONT OF THE CLASS IN THE SAME SPOT EVERY DAY (this one is big! the teacher will know your face and dedication, if not your name), and GET TO KNOW YOUR TA VERY WELL! That is, if you have big lectures, get in good with your TA. That way, when it comes to asking for a letter, you can tell the professor that despite the size of the class, you've done well in section, paid attention, scored high, blahblah. Then ask the TA to give his/her input on the letter, and/or ask the professor to ask the TA for his/her input as well. Throw in the resume and you could get a decent letter.

Of course, this backfired on me. I worked really hard in this class, scored over 100% on the lab practical, was a really active participant in class and lab, the TA knew me well, the professor knew me, we had field trips, I had her husband as another professor the same quarter. LOR time comes around and she promises to write me one, and then just decides she's too lazy to do it, so instead of submitting my LOR, goes on Facebook and fools around ALL DAY. I've never been so angry. 😡

I know where you're coming from though. I go to a school where the classes consist of about 300 students, and I've never been much of an office hours kid, especially since I commute and hate hanging around campus because I'm horribly unproductive there. Do try your best though, there's more to getting a LOR than just lurking around office hours asking not very good questions just for the sake of the professor thinking that you want to go "beyond the material." Hope this helps!

 

[bunnity]

While we're on the subject of eLOR's, is it appropriate to ask your undergraduate adviser to write you a letter or recommendation if they are not a professor? I plan to ask the equine vet that I interned with for 6 months as well as the nutritional consultant (PhD) that I did swine research with for 2 Summers. I am undecided to ask for the third. I saw someone mentioned that Penn requires one letter from a professor? If that is the case, then I will ask a professor but I feel like my adviser knows me a lot better. Thoughts?

I did this with Penn and it wasn't a problem. My advisor had taught me in a class but I don't think it would have mattered if he hadn't. He was mainly an advisor and just taught the one class so he wasn't a professor in the typical, doctorate-having sense of the word, more like an advisor/program coordinator who happened to teach a class.

 

[VAgirl]

LOR time comes around and she promises to write me one, and then just decides she's too lazy to do it, so instead of submitting my LOR, goes on Facebook and fools around ALL DAY. I've never been so angry. 😡

This brings up an interesting point and something that I'm going through as we speak. What happens when a recommender flakes on you?

Here's my story: I'm applying for a scholarship which requires several letters of rec. All materials need to be submitted in hard copy, and the program's preference was to receive all materials in one package. I asked my recommenders for letters about a month in advance...an okay amount of time, but not as much notice as I usually give. Still, everyone said it was fine and they'd have no problem meeting that timeline. I also built in time (a week) for them to mail the letters to me prior to the deadline. Three days before the date I gave these folks as the date to mail the letter, I spoke with one guy who said that he hadn't done the letter yet but would do it that weekend. After that, I'm unable to get in touch with him. A few days before the actual deadline and a few days after he would have needed to mail the letter for it to get to me on time, I start panicking. So I decide to contact a professor I'd worked with before who wrote me a letter for vet school. He's FANTASTIC and in the span of 2 days wrote and mailed in the letter for me.

Ok, so a more general discussion.... What do you do to avoid this? I've been talking about it with my mom and fiance, and we've been batting around the idea that if possible, you ask one more person than letter needed. This sound awful, and I would feel bad getting an extra letter and not using it. And I've never had this issue of a recommender flaking before, but this time almost screwed me royally, and would have had I not had the most awesome contact in the world who saved my butt.

Now, this idea of asking more people than you need wouldn't work with vet school apps, because of the VMCAS electronic system limiting you to 3 individuals.

I'm curious what others think and what their experiences have been.

 

[twelvetigers]

I had to take a written LOR to the post office myself on the deadline date and have it send via certified mail so that I would know it would be postmarked the day it was sent, and that it would not get lost somehow.

I won't be asking them to write a LOR next time. That was stressful.

 

[Lckynmbrslefman]

One of my friends asked her vet to write an electronic LOR for her (months in advance) and the vet didn't submit it until 11:58am on the due date (due time: 12:00pm). She had called him a week before to remind him, but he still hadn't submitted by the due day. She skipped all her classes, called the clinic for thirty minutes straight and still got no response from the vet. Finally it went through, and when he finally called her you know what he said?

"Better late than never right?"

I would have killed him!!!

 

[tpad40]

I actually had a eLOR that went in at 12:15 pm! Yikes!

I was totally panicked, but fortunately VMCAS lets them submit late and it did not delay my application at all. It was also a fourth eLOR (my professor). VMCAS said the letter would be included with my app and marked "Late" and it would be up to schools what they wanted to do about it But, phew, things worked out!

 

[robeezy08]

I too had trouble w/ a few people getting the LOR's in on time...but 1 month before they were due, had sent email reminders every week! And one week prior to submission, either called them or stopped by their office - yea I was truly bugging them but these were busy people who sometimes glaze over hundreds of emails in their inbox and/or erase them by accident.

 

[sumstorm]

I build in a false deadline. Easy as that. All the vets who wrote my elors were under the impression that they were due mid August. I asked an extra (since Icould submit an extra) but she flaked on me. Since I knew that I had 3 elors that I believed were strong, it wasn't a problem to remove her from the list. I also have a few PhD/professors that I know could vouch for me and would go out of thier way with relatively short notice.

 

[VMCAS001]

Hello all - I just wanted to clarify something I noted in this thread. VMCAS does NOT limit you to three evaluations (we did in prior years). You can register up to five (5) evaluations. The minimum of three is the least amount that must be recieved in order for us to send your application to your schools.

On another note, the evaluation deadline extention is a RARITY, and should not be counted on. All evaluations should be submitted by the Application Deadline Date! Don't count on an extension 🙂

Thanks, - Your VMCAS staff.

 

[twelvetigers]

But do all vet schools accept five, or are there many that still only want three? If so, is there a way to specify the three we'd prefer sent?

 

[meadow36]

I didn't have an academic LOR - I used two vets that I work with and that know me very well, and I used a PHD that I worked with in the genetics lab for 2 1/2 years. It worked out pretty well, everyone knew me well enough to write outstanding letters.

I think it's important that the letters be personable and very detailed; as well as talking about all of the outstanding things you did.

 

[IvyLynx]

i didn't have an academic LOR either. two vets that were also PhDs, and a rehab vet.

 

[sumstorm]

But do all vet schools accept five, or are there many that still only want three? If so, is there a way to specify the three we'd prefer sent?

NCSU only accepts 3. They take the first three listed on the eLORs, at least that is what they told me. Some schools will allow you to submit additional letters above and beyond, especially if your applying for DVM/PhD.

 

[turnbackhelly]

I have a semi-convoluted LOR situation as well and would appreciate some feedback/advice from you guys!

My BA is in Psychology, and since I went to a small school with very small classes, there are many undergrad profs (PhD) who know me EXTREMELY well both academically and personally (ie, in addition to having them in class, I've been to their houses for dinner, walked their dogs, babysat their kids, etc.). I have had many of these profs several times, and they have already written outstanding LORs for me when I was applying to grad school. Basically, I know they REALLY know who I am and can write very strong letters on my behalf.

The problem: they're all psychology professors, and psychology is not a "hard" science. I've been working on my prereqs at a different, much larger state school, and because my classes here tend to be much larger, my experience with professors has been fairly impersonal. My grades here are excellent (3.9 GPA overall) so that is not a problem, but I really don't feel like any of the professors I've had here actually KNOW me, beyond "she showed up every day and got an A." I'm pretty quiet in class and rarely (if ever) go to office hours for anything - I pretty much just do my thing and do well.

I am in the pre-health program here as a post-bac, and will (hopefully) be getting a composite letter from the MD who heads the program (also my advisor). In addition to getting LORs from a few "hard" science profs for this composite letter, several of my undergrad psych profs have submitted/will be submitting letters as well. I also do have 2, possibly 3 vets willing to write on my behalf, and in addition to submitting one or two in their entirety through VMCAS, they will also be submitted to the pre-health committee for the composite letter.

I guess I have several questions for you all... in your experiences, how does a pre-health composite letter fit into the 3 LORs? Is it considered an "academic" letter (and thus I do not need an additional academic LOR in its entirety), or is it in a class all its own (and I would still need a separate "academic" letter)? Given my situation is it even worth submitting a composite letter, or should I just work with what I have? (I've been told that for MD programs it "looks bad" to come from a school with a pre-health program and NOT have a composite letter, but I'm not sure if the same applies to vet school.) What are your thoughts on letters from "hard" science profs who don't know me as well VS. letters from "soft" science profs who know me very well? Of course for schools that are OK with more than 3 letters I will have some flexibility, but I am most concerned about those schools with a strict 3 LOR limit.

I've been mulling over this for months and would really appreciate any input or suggestions you guys may have! Thanks a lot!

 

[meadow36]

I have a semi-convoluted LOR situation as well and would appreciate some feedback/advice from you guys!

My BA is in Psychology, and since I went to a small school with very small classes, there are many undergrad profs (PhD) who know me EXTREMELY well both academically and personally (ie, in addition to having them in class, I've been to their houses for dinner, walked their dogs, babysat their kids, etc.). I have had many of these profs several times, and they have already written outstanding LORs for me when I was applying to grad school. Basically, I know they REALLY know who I am and can write very strong letters on my behalf.

The problem: they're all psychology professors, and psychology is not a "hard" science. I've been working on my prereqs at a different, much larger state school, and because my classes here tend to be much larger, my experience with professors has been fairly impersonal. My grades here are excellent (3.9 GPA overall) so that is not a problem, but I really don't feel like any of the professors I've had here actually KNOW me, beyond "she showed up every day and got an A." I'm pretty quiet in class and rarely (if ever) go to office hours for anything - I pretty much just do my thing and do well.

I am in the pre-health program here as a post-bac, and will (hopefully) be getting a composite letter from the MD who heads the program (also my advisor). In addition to getting LORs from a few "hard" science profs for this composite letter, several of my undergrad psych profs have submitted/will be submitting letters as well. I also do have 2, possibly 3 vets willing to write on my behalf, and in addition to submitting one or two in their entirety through VMCAS, they will also be submitted to the pre-health committee for the composite letter.

I guess I have several questions for you all... in your experiences, how does a pre-health composite letter fit into the 3 LORs? Is it considered an "academic" letter (and thus I do not need an additional academic LOR in its entirety), or is it in a class all its own (and I would still need a separate "academic" letter)? Given my situation is it even worth submitting a composite letter, or should I just work with what I have? (I've been told that for MD programs it "looks bad" to come from a school with a pre-health program and NOT have a composite letter, but I'm not sure if the same applies to vet school.) What are your thoughts on letters from "hard" science profs who don't know me as well VS. letters from "soft" science profs who know me very well? Of course for schools that are OK with more than 3 letters I will have some flexibility, but I am most concerned about those schools with a strict 3 LOR limit.

I've been mulling over this for months and would really appreciate any input or suggestions you guys may have! Thanks a lot!

I would use ONE letter from one of these Psychology profs (make sure it is a GLOWING letter) and the other two need to be from veterinarians that you have worked with. Try to pick vets from 2 different fields if possible - for example, if you volunteered at a shelter and worked with an equine vet, that would be 2 different types.

 

[VAgirl]

...the other two need to be from veterinarians that you have worked with.

Depending upon what school he/she is applying to, this may or may not be true. Some schools do require letters from 2 vets. Some only require one letter from a vet.

 

[Ben and Me]

NCSU only accepts 3. They take the first three listed on the eLORs, at least that is what they told me. Some schools will allow you to submit additional letters above and beyond, especially if your applying for DVM/PhD.

See, that isn't what they told an information session last spring. They told us that they preferred to only receive 3, but that if you had more, they would read them all. But they really emphasized that they'd prefer that you only send 3....But honestly, some schools required letters from different sources, so I ended up with 4. So, who knows? 😕

As for choosing which letter you want read, that just depends. Some schools just select the first 3 (Illinois did this, I think) while others let you specify which 3 you want read (Mississippi State did this, maybe? I can't remember). I do remember that Joyce at VMRCVM told us to email her with the 3 that we wanted them to select.

Regardless about what all of us think, sometimes its best to go right to the source--email the school (if it isn't listed on their website) and see if they have preferences about how your letters are divided up. Most of the schools I contacted throughout the cycle were more than happy to offer advice/help about stuff like that!