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medicinesux

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http://www.newsday.com/long-island/...246-374-going-after-drunken-drivers-1.1451129

I begin to realize more and more each and everyday that I plinkoed myself into the wrong profession. This was a mere cop (not a lieutenant, commander or police chief) just working overtime after only a decade on the job.

Another clear cut example of another profession plowing right past the stagnant pay of a physician like a Formula 1 driver overtaking a 90 year old grandma in her 1978 Yugo.
 
On the bright side, docs generally do not have to worry much about getting killed by some dirtbag any given day they're at work.
 
Being married to a cop, let me tell you -- I've known guys who got shot. Not shot at, but shot. You couldn't pay me enough to get shot at and shoot back. Not to mention the guys who do extra stuff like SWAT, bomb squad, sex crimes against children..... Oh, and shall I mention the fabulous daily threats against your life and your family? The guys that bear a grudge and decide to plant a bomb in your house, stalk your wife/children....

That guy earned every penny. You have to realize he worked an extra 1,100+ hours to get that money. EXTRA. Talk about no life.
 
On the bright side, docs generally do not have to worry much about getting killed by some dirtbag any given day they're at work.

tell that to an ER Doc working the night shift in the inner city or the colorectalsurgeon operating on the Hep C, HIV + crack addict who just got shot up down the street.
 
Being married to a cop, let me tell you -- I've known guys who got shot. Not shot at, but shot. You couldn't pay me enough to get shot at and shoot back. Not to mention the guys who do extra stuff like SWAT, bomb squad, sex crimes against children..... Oh, and shall I mention the fabulous daily threats against your life and your family? The guys that bear a grudge and decide to plant a bomb in your house, stalk your wife/children....

That guy earned every penny. You have to realize he worked an extra 1,100+ hours to get that money. EXTRA. Talk about no life.

Tell this to the avg resident who works 1000 more hours per year making one fifth the pay with 100X the debt and a decade's more of education. Furthermore, this cop is not exactly working Compton or the streets of Detroit. Sorry, but your arguments sound just like the propaganda sputtered out by the police unions in this very jurisdiction.
 
LI cops also get paid the highest out of just about any police officer in the country. 5 years = ~100,000 for them. Shift a few miles over to manhattan and you wouldn't see any paycheck like that.
 
Wait, what is this?

Being a doctor isn't the most efficient way to make money?

And there are people with less education then doctors who make as much or more than physicians?

Well then, I quit!

........

Seriously medicinesux, what is the point of this thread? Are you that new to medicine that you didn't realize these things before? If you're trying to shock people, maybe you should stick to the premed forum where others share your previous delusions of wealth through medicine

If you'd like a real shocker about dollars earned per years of education, why don't you look a little higher up. Ken Lewis, the CEO of Bank of America, earned about $26 million in 2008 for running the bank into the ground so I think he has your cop beat by a long shot. He has a BA in finance and that's it. So why don't you get angry about that?

Sorry, but your arguments sound just like the propaganda sputtered out by the police unions in this very jurisdiction.

Please stop whining.

If you really think that being a typical cop will net you 200k+, then go for it, quit your bitching now and sign up. And you're right, it's a completely safe job.

We'll miss you 🙁
 
Being married to a cop, let me tell you -- I've known guys who got shot. Not shot at, but shot. You couldn't pay me enough to get shot at and shoot back. Not to mention the guys who do extra stuff like SWAT, bomb squad, sex crimes against children..... Oh, and shall I mention the fabulous daily threats against your life and your family? The guys that bear a grudge and decide to plant a bomb in your house, stalk your wife/children....

That guy earned every penny. You have to realize he worked an extra 1,100+ hours to get that money. EXTRA. Talk about no life.
So he worked a whole 3100 hours? Damn, I wonder who else worked more than that last, hmm....


By the way, his BASE salary was 132 grand a year. And I'm not quite positive he was spending his time in shootouts with the scarface's of the world--his job was going after drunk drivers, and plenty of that was spent on BS, as the article notes regarding the overtime, "most of it racked up in processing arrests, doing blood-alcohol testing and testifying in court."

My oh my! A whole 300 hours of testifying in court! You couldn't pay me enough to do that!
 
Wait, what is this?

Being a doctor isn't the most efficient way to make money?

And there are people with less education then doctors who make as much or more than physicians?

Well then, I quit!

........

Seriously medicinesux, what is the point of this thread? Are you that new to medicine that you didn't realize these things before? If you're trying to shock people, maybe you should stick to the premed forum where others share your previous delusions of wealth through medicine

If you'd like a real shocker about dollars earned per years of education, why don't you look a little higher up. Ken Lewis, the CEO of Bank of America, earned about $26 million in 2008 for running the bank into the ground so I think he has your cop beat by a long shot. He has a BA in finance and that's it. So why don't you get angry about that?



Please stop whining.

If you really think that being a typical cop will net you 200k+, then go for it, quit your bitching now and sign up. And you're right, it's a completely safe job.

We'll miss you 🙁

First of all, I am not going anywhere. I can promise you that. For every person that wants to see me disappear, there is one that asks me to keep blogging and writing. May I suggest that you hit the ignore button because I will not be silenced.
Your example of Ken Lewis is laughable. Not everyone can go on and become a CEO of one of the top banks in the country. However, there are over 5000 people in the police force on LI alone making an AVERAGE SALARY OF 150k. And please don't call me delusional about attaining wealth through medicine. If you took one second to look at my blog, you would clearly see that I would rather work at a tiki bar on some Central American beach making virtually nothing than work some highly stressful time consuming miserable job. From your previous postings, you come across as being one of those annoying high and mighty premeds who like to judge others on whether or not they should be going to medical school in the first place👎 I am sure your patient's will appreciate this attribute.
You may call it whining, while I call it raising awareness. I refuse to sit on the sidelines with my mouth shut while the medical profession continues to get decimated. This is one of the very reasons why we are where we are right now. Oh, and who would've thunk that being a truck driver was more dangerous than being a cop? Please do your research first and come up with better data if you are going to argue with me.
 
Not everyone can become a cop so easily either.

My older brother is a cop and there are PLENTY of politics in that field as well. I can only imagine the connections you would need to land a 6-digit cop gig especially in a place as nice (from what I hear) as Long Island.

For everyone of these "cush" police gigs, I'm sure there are just as many if not MORE academy graduates being sent to places like Detroit, Newark, Baltimore, etc...
 
Seriously medicinesux, what is the point of this thread?

I don't believe medicinesux is physiologically capable of releasing CO2 from his body without the expired gases also producing a complaint about medicine.

However, congratulations are in order to you for baiting him into yet another invocation of Burnett's Law. 🙂 Just view his posts as potential for entertainment, nothing more.
 
tell that to an ER Doc working the night shift in the inner city or the colorectalsurgeon operating on the Hep C, HIV + crack addict who just got shot up down the street.

I sutured up these inner city, HIV-infected, crack-heads left and right on my trauma rotation and trust me... I would rather suture 1 million more than risk taking a bullet from some nothing-to-lose gangbanger.

Leave the cops alone dude. Out of all the people to be pissed off at for making more than me, the furthest down on my list would be someone who is paid to protect me. Geez, go get robbed or something. It'll make you more appreciative.
 
tell that to an ER Doc working the night shift in the inner city or the colorectalsurgeon operating on the Hep C, HIV + crack addict who just got shot up down the street.

That has been me, and, as I am prone to say, I do NOT begrudge ANY police officer or firefighter what pay they make, as they risk their lives daily, and my risk is low. I get paid for all of my schooling; they get paid for risking their lives.

So, as you have made the challenge, and I have met it, and refuted your point, you FAIL. See ya!
 
That has been me, and, as I am prone to say, I do NOT begrudge ANY police officer or firefighter what pay they make, as they risk their lives daily, and my risk is low. I get paid for all of my schooling; they get paid for risking their lives.

So, as you have made the challenge, and I have met it, and refuted your point, you FAIL. See ya!

oh yeah the housewives of LI pose a real threat to the cops. remember that this isn't an inner city cop.

but i was happy to see angry comments about waste of taxpayer money. i expected a bunch of "oh how nice, he really deserves that money"
 
That has been me, and, as I am prone to say, I do NOT begrudge ANY police officer or firefighter what pay they make, as they risk their lives daily, and my risk is low. I get paid for all of my schooling; they get paid for risking their lives.

So, as you have made the challenge, and I have met it, and refuted your point, you FAIL. See ya!

So I guess truck drivers and lumberjacks should be paid more than docs too. 😕 Yeah your rationale is quite sound. FAIL.
 
So I guess truck drivers and lumberjacks should be paid more than docs too. 😕 Yeah your rationale is quite sound. FAIL.

No, I said I get paid because of my education. Lumberjacks? They do poorly. Maybe that's because it's the only job available in the northwest. An even more dangerous job, though, is commercial fisherman - they get paid VERY WELL for their dangerous jobs. Generally, police and firefighter do NOT get paid well, even though they should (as is my opinion), due to the risk. What about astronauts? They are in one of the most dangerous jobs in the world, and they get around $60K/year - yet there are - literally - thousands of people clamoring for those jobs.

And truck drivers can really make bank - and the danger of their jobs is not that high, because they are professional drivers. Look at the numbers.

So, what do all these jobs (vice lumberjack) have in common? Police/fire - high danger. Physician - long schooling. Commercial fisherman - high danger. Truck driver - long, hard hours on the road. There is something beyond the pale in each profession.
 
Generally, police and firefighter do NOT get paid well, even though they should (as is my opinion), due to the risk.

They are paid plenty when you take into account pension/benefits. Teachers are the same way. Everyone says they are underpaid but you can't just look at salary.
 
If you look at SF's city and county's top 100 earners you see lots of big $$$ police jobs.

The #1 earner in 08 was a "special nurse" who pulled 332k.

Kudos to you for an amazing find!👍 And I thought my example was off the chain. You have me beat by a mile- no.....make that a lightyear.


"SPECIAL NURSE"???:laugh::laugh: Let me guess. This is the penultimate in all nursing degrees. It is the title you attain even after receiving your doctorate in nursing. Sort of on par to that of a fellowship trained physician. Oh, wait a minute. That can't be. Because when nurses come out of their "doctorate programs", they don't do 3-5 year grueling residencies. And we all know you must do a residency before entering a fellowship. So there goes that theory.😕 Any other guesses?
 
Last I checked, nobody's been conscripted into medical school.

Some people just ain't happy unless they're b****in' 'bout somethin'.
 
If you look at SF's city and county's top 100 earners you see lots of big $$$ police jobs.

The #1 earner in 08 was a "special nurse" who pulled 332k.

A NP pulled in 225k and I also saw a pharmacist at like 240k. Must be nice to make 1/3 to 1/2 of your salary in overtime. I wonder if residents/physicians could get overtime after 40 hours.... :laugh:

$50k / 52 / 40 = $24/hr
$24/hr * 1.5 = $37.50/hr

$50k + ($37.50 * 40 * 52) = $128k per year if residents got overtime and worked 80 hour weeks....that's not too shabby.

Here is a quote about the "special" nurse:

t the very top, with $350,324 is Christian Kitchin, a Special Nurse with the DPH-Community Health Network. Kitchin is a county jail nurse and his base pay is $117,262. He made $216,277 in overtime and $16,785 in "other pay", which is classified as "compensation for special working conditions or one-time pay-outs of unused vacation and sick leave to employees leaving the city."

Christian Kitchin works as a special nurse for the San Francisco Public Health Department, treating patients at the county jail. Kitchin's annual pay was $117,262. But as the most senior "on call" nurse at the jail, he gets first dibs on overtime, raking in $216,277 last year, routinely pulling 16-hour days. He made another $16,785 in extra pay, according to the newspaper.

There's one drawback to the great-paying gig, however. As a part-timer, Kitchin doesn't get health benefits.
 
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...it's the firefighters. They put in more over time than cops and get paid to sleep. My father is a government finance manager/CPA. Guys line up around the corner to become firefighters, and the cops have hired a guy with a 350 credit score because they have trouble finding people, and this is Huntington Beach, CA, not exactly the ghetto. I have actually seen cops hurt on the job, just Friday in fact, the traffic lights went out and the power was off for two hours and the cops were human traffic signals and an old lady hit the poor guy, he wasn't hurt though. Human traffic light cops get hit a lot. Cops see it all, and most are college graduates. My father's friend is a cop, and one night they got a call because a lady heard her neighbor crying, turns out the neighbor woman had been in an accident with a drink driver, which killed her husband and left her a young brain damaged widow with 4 kids under the age of 6. She was crying because one of her children had drowned, when the cops arrived the baby was cold and dead. Turnover is high in law enforcement, not firefighting. Haha, there's actually some overlap with medicine, sometimes, even in nice areas, cops deliver babies, if you want a newspaper link i can get you one. I think cops delivering babies is much more common in the ghetto than most parts of Orange County.
 
No, I said I get paid because of my education. Lumberjacks? They do poorly. Maybe that's because it's the only job available in the northwest. An even more dangerous job, though, is commercial fisherman - they get paid VERY WELL for their dangerous jobs. Generally, police and firefighter do NOT get paid well, even though they should (as is my opinion), due to the risk. What about astronauts? They are in one of the most dangerous jobs in the world, and they get around $60K/year - yet there are - literally - thousands of people clamoring for those jobs.

And truck drivers can really make bank - and the danger of their jobs is not that high, because they are professional drivers. Look at the numbers.

So, what do all these jobs (vice lumberjack) have in common? Police/fire - high danger. Physician - long schooling. Commercial fisherman - high danger. Truck driver - long, hard hours on the road. There is something beyond the pale in each profession.

Hey.... perhaps you should research what the most dangerous profession is prior to spouting off about it... Logging has a higher morbidity rate than any other profession, and is consistently ranked one or two in mortality, alternating spots with commercial fishing. In any event, it ranks higher than any of the other listed professions. In fact, trucking has a higher mortality rate than many of the other listed professions....
 
Hey.... perhaps you should research what the most dangerous profession is prior to spouting off about it

Took you a while to come up with that response?

Even if I am wrong (which, for part, appears to be), irony is that, in your response, you, too, are wrong.

According to the BLS (U.S. Department of Labor's Bureau of Labor Statistics), the following jobs had the highest fatality rates for 2006:

Fishers and related fishing workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 141.7
Number of fatalities: 51
Average salary: $19,104

Aircraft pilots and flight engineers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 87.8
Number of fatalities: 101
Average salary: $129,250

Logging workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 82.1
Number of fatalities: 64
Average salary: $22,320

Structural iron and steel workers
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 61.0
Number of fatalities: 36
Average salary: $39,168

Refuse and recyclable material collectors
Fatality rate (per 100,000 workers): 41.8
Number of fatalities: 38
Average salary: $23,770

So logging and commercial fishing are not alternating, nor is it number one. Who is now "spouting off"? (Hint: it's you)

edit: in 2007, it was 1. Commercial fishing 2. Logging 3. Pilots/Flight Engineers - so #'s 2 and 3 flip, but not #1
 
I understand what the OP is getting at... YES physicians need to be more active at defending their profession especially when others in the SAME FIELD (nurses, pharmacists, NPs, ....even the dam hospital admins) are not seeing any pay cuts and maybe even seeing pay raises...... BUT out of all the people getting pay raises I think police officers are probably more deserving of it than most of the nurses sitting around while the CNAs do most of what was probably considered "nursing" 10 to 15 years ago.
 
Sure, being a cop is not the most dangerous job in America, but it is probably a little bit more dangerous than being a doctor. I know police officer is never ranked as the most dangerous job, but made the Forbes list of the ten most dangerous jobs one year, 2008: http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/25/dangerous-jobs-fishing-lead-careers-cx_mk_0825danger.html

The injury rate is fairly high as well. Is physician on that list? Also, my father has been in civil service for 27 years, and all of the police officers that he has worked with who have been Lts. have had at least bacholer's degrees to his knowledge, and many have had Master's degrees as well. Most police chiefs and the men around them have Master's degrees, I'm willing to bet over half, if not far more, of police management in cities with a population 50,000+ have bacholer's if not Master's degrees. In fact a Police Captain who was a good friend of his died of cancer a few weeks ago, and the guy held a Master's degree. A 30 year-old Police Lt. is extremely rare, try to find me an example of one online, how rare is it for a physician to get an MD by the time they hit thirty? I don't know a lot about what I'm talking about, so I could be wrong, but I'd pick physician over cop any day. I'm aware you guys know a lot more than I do about this, but the turnover rate among police officers is high, the calls can range from anything to a chick with her finger stuck in the wires of her canary's cage at 3 AM to the Virginia Tech massacre. Police officers have to approach potentially dangerous people all the time. In Southern California they have to block off the roads for the duration of a wildfire, and they work long shifts standing there exposed to the elements which is often boring and uncomfortable. On top of that, which profession is more respected by the public?
 
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Sure, being a cop is not the most dangerous job in America, but it is probably a little bit more dangerous than being a doctor. I know police officer is never ranked as the most dangerous job, but made the Forbes list of the ten most dangerous jobs one year, 2008: http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/25/dangerous-jobs-fishing-lead-careers-cx_mk_0825danger.html

The injury rate is fairly high as well. Is physician on that list? Also, my father has been in civil service for 27 years, and all of the police officers that he has worked with who have been Lts. have had at least bacholer's degrees to his knowledge, and many have had Master's degrees as well. Most police chiefs and the men around them have Master's degrees, I'm willing to bet over half, if not far more, of police management in cities with a population 50,000+ have bacholer's if not Master's degrees. In fact a Police Captain who was a good friend of his died of cancer a few weeks ago, and the guy held a Master's degree. A 30 year-old Police Lt. is extremely rare, try to find me an example of one online, how rare is it for a physician to get an MD by the time they hit thirty? I don't know a lot about what I'm talking about, so I could be wrong, but I'd pick physician over cop any day. I'm aware you guys know a lot more than I do about this, but the turnover rate among police officers is high, the calls can range from anything to a chick with her finger stuck in the wires of her canary's cage at 3 AM to the Virginia Tech massacre. Police officers have to approach potentially dangerous people all the time. In Southern California they have to block off the roads for the duration of a wildfire, and they work long shifts standing there exposed to the elements which is often boring and uncomfortable. On top of that, which profession is more respected by the public?


Problem is that the cops stationed at the most dangerous places are not the MOST paid of their colleagues. No one is going to begrudge a cop in Detroit or Brooklyn for making some good money. However, it is the cops in posh neighborhoods garner the most pay-out. I wanna make $200K writing tickets and helping kitty come down from the tree! 12 years of schooling? Who needs that!
 
LAPD get paid pretty well. I think they're on some type of hiring freeze right now, but here it is http://www.joinlapd.com/career_ladder.html

61k right off the bat with a bachelors, I don't think many of my business major friends or future PhD friends will see that. After about 4 years you get close to 85k, not too bad.
 
My brother-in-law is an officer for the sheriffs dept in Bergen Cty NJ. He spends his shifts in the court bldgs filling out paper work, watching the prisoners, txting on his BB or monitoring the road and doing the same (or watching DVDs in his squad car). This guy was a delinquent in his youth, barely graduated HS, and now brags about how he made nearly 200K in 2009 in his police job alone (not to mention the small business he owns on the side). Although he has the utmost respect for physicians he can't help but make fun of the fact that he's making a helluva lot more than newly-minted doctors and lawyers with nowhere close to their education and debt.

I was dismissed from med school 3 years ago and have been slowly working towards trying to get back in (I'm not even sure why at this point). I've submitted my app to the NJ State Police (base pay is 58k not including overtime). If I get in, that would effectively end my desire of getting back into med school (which is pretty much done at this point), pursuing a career in healthcare, or some other such nonsense like that.
 
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This thread is pointless. Who are you (talking to the OP here), Eric Cartman? Since I was born, you all know that my life goal is to make one million dollars. Some cops make a lot of money. Most don't. You're using this single cop (followed by a list of selected individuals in other civil positions, all of whom had special circumstances in their income earning) as an example for what is wrong with the MEDICAL profession is completely unhelpful and useless. I know a doctor who made well over a million last year. Maybe I should encourage more people to go into medicine!!! 🙄

Did you know that the two highest paid public employees (University of California) in California are both physicians? OH NO! That completely ruins your baseless argument! FAIL.
 
This thread is pointless. Who are you (talking to the OP here), Eric Cartman? Since I was born, you all know that my life goal is to make one million dollars. Some cops make a lot of money. Most don't. You're using this single cop (followed by a list of selected individuals in other civil positions, all of whom had special circumstances in their income earning) as an example for what is wrong with the MEDICAL profession is completely unhelpful and useless. I know a doctor who made well over a million last year. Maybe I should encourage more people to go into medicine!!! 🙄

Did you know that the two highest paid public employees (University of California) in California are both physicians? OH NO! That completely ruins your baseless argument! FAIL.

Sigh....I have my haters and I guess you are one of them since this is not the first time you have assailed me with YOUR pointless diatribes. To say that my goal in life is to make a million dollars could not be further from the truth. As a firm believer in voluntary simplicity, amassing wealth via trading away freedom is the complete antithesis to your brazen assumption.
THE POINT of this thread was simply to point out how physician compensation has been falling like a rock (with no signs of stopping) over the years in comparison to other career options with MUCH LESS EDUCATION AND STUDENT LOAN DEBT. Oh and by the way, if you took the time to do a simple google search, you would find PAGE AFTER PAGE of public employees making some serious coin. I assure you this is not cherry picking a selected individual with "special circumstances". Police salaries have now EQUALED primary care pay in the suburbs of NY. I hear that this is quickly becoming the case in Boston, Chicago, and CA as well. This is not manipulating statistics to prove some "agenda". Rather it is FACT.

Here are just a few "isolated" and "highly selected" individuals in the Boston P.D. for 2008 http://bit.ly/69zK8S
 
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if you think physician pay is bad here then try working overseas. American docs are overpaid as it is and that is one of the reasons (not the primary reason) why the country is headed towards bankruptcy. The party is going to end sooner or later.
 
if you think physician pay is bad here then try working overseas. American docs are overpaid as it is and that is one of the reasons (not the primary reason) why the country is headed towards bankruptcy. The party is going to end sooner or later.

It is very widely accepted that physician salaries do not contribute very greatly to the soaring costs in this country (see the UK and Canada that has lower but comparable salaries for physicians and much lower costs)

Most experts would agree that

(A) the practice of defensive medicine (ordering expensive and unnecessary tests to protect your self from sue crazy lawyers)

(B) Administrative costs which make between 30% to 40% of the total healthcare costs in the US

(C) Advancing diagnostic technologies
 
if you think physician pay is bad here then try working overseas. American docs are overpaid as it is and that is one of the reasons (not the primary reason) why the country is headed towards bankruptcy. The party is going to end sooner or later.

:laugh::laugh:

Medicinesux, SDN will soon become more like JDUnderground. If those guys are banned/reprimanded (already happening), then I'm sure we will see an MDUnderground pop up.

Thanks for continuing to publish the true story. These naive pre-meds need to be taught what's coming down the pike!
 
if you think physician pay is bad here then try working overseas. American docs are overpaid as it is and that is one of the reasons (not the primary reason) why the country is headed towards bankruptcy. The party is going to end sooner or later.

One of the worst parts of being a physician is having to tolerate ignorant patients like you who (a) think we're overpaid, and (b) don't have the first clue what really drives the cost of healthcare. You'll happily pay a plumber $180 for an hour's work unclogging your toilet, but you bitch if I get paid $160/hour to keep your worthless ass alive, asleep, and pain-free while a surgeon gets paid a flat fee of $400 to reassemble your leg or take out the rotting appendix that was going to kill you.

Give yourself 10 years, Bowzer Pre-Med, and IF you get into medical school, and IF you make it through, and IF you complete a residency, and IF you ever practice medicine, come back to SDN, resurrect this thread, and tell us how overpaid you are.

Medicinesux is the Eeyore of SDN, I don't agree with everything he says, and from time to time I mock his incessant complaining, but at least he's got credibility and perspective ... and when he makes claims of factual they're generally accurate. You ... not so much.
 
Thanks for continuing to publish the true story. These naive pre-meds need to be taught what's coming down the pike!

There's a difference between the "true story" and using an anecdote of an overpaid cop to illustrate how physicians are underpaid. It trivializes the argument because it suggests that things like the overpaid cops and public employees are relevant. They are not.

Physician compensation is declining, and the pressures of loans are hindering the field. These are very relevant facts. Long Island cops making coin has nothing to do with it. There are many other careers where salaries have not kept pace with inflation. Have any of you ever met a cop? Because the vast majority are not making significant money, and their standard of living has drastically declined from what it was many years ago. It is NOT just physicians! As medicine becomes more of a business, physician salaries are absolutely going to decline. For those of you who assail government intervention as a horrible idea, realize that a great deal of the pressure on physician salaries over the years has come from the "business of health care," things like HMOs, cost cutting, for-profit hospitals, all that stuff. I know you all want to have things both ways, but try to keep your eyes open just a little bit.

bowzer said:
if you think physician pay is bad here then try working overseas. American docs are overpaid as it is and that is one of the reasons (not the primary reason) why the country is headed towards bankruptcy. The party is going to end sooner or later.

This is such a crap argument, and suggests a total lack of understanding of anything related to real life. NO ONE ever really thinks that they personally are overpaid (with incredibly rare exceptions). But coincidentally, people seem to think that everyone else IS overpaid. The country is not heading towards bankruptcy because physicians are overpaid. Get a grip.
 
One of the worst parts of being a physician is having to tolerate ignorant patients like you who (a) think we're overpaid, and (b) don't have the first clue what really drives the cost of healthcare. You'll happily pay a plumber $180 for an hour's work unclogging your toilet, but you bitch if I get paid $160/hour to keep your worthless ass alive, asleep, and pain-free while a surgeon gets paid a flat fee of $400 to reassemble your leg or take out the rotting appendix that was going to kill you.

Give yourself 10 years, Bowzer Pre-Med, and IF you get into medical school, and IF you make it through, and IF you complete a residency, and IF you ever practice medicine, come back to SDN, resurrect this thread, and tell us how overpaid you are.

Medicinesux is the Eeyore of SDN, I don't agree with everything he says, and from time to time I mock his incessant complaining, but at least he's got credibility and perspective ... and when he makes claims of factual they're generally accurate. You ... not so much.

Some studies have pointed to physician salaries as a reason that the cost of medical care is higher in the U.S. From a McKinsey study in 2008:

"It is true that US physicians are more highly paid than their counterparts in other developed countries (Exhibit 14). US generalists make 4.1 times per capita GDP, compared with 2.8 times per capita GDP in other OECD countries. Specialists make 6.5 times per capita GDP, compared with an OECD average of 3.9. As we noted in our prior report, higher average physician compensation is not because of a higher concentration of specialists in the United States—specialists represent 64 percent of all physicians in the United States, compared with an OECD average of 66 percent. Across all US physicians, higher earnings add $64 billion in costs to the US system"

The study goes on to say "This difference may be explained by such factors as a higher cost of medical education in the United States, as well as the opportunity cost of not entering other higher-paying professions (e.g., law, business). However, such factors cannot explain all of the difference in the earnings of US physicians compared with their OECD counterparts."
http://www.mckinsey.com/mgi/publications/US_healthcare/pdf/US_healthcare_Chapter1.pdf

There's no way an extra 150-250k in loan burden could cancel out this difference. Physicians in the U.S. make more than their foreign counterparts.

Incidentally, physicians make vastly more than plumbers and police officers. According the Dept. of Labors, plumbers made $50,000 on average in 2008. Police make $52,000, $25/hr. Supervisory police officers did a little better, $78,000, $37/hr. Though true, police officers do get very generous pensions. In contrast, general internists made $175,000, $85/hr in 2008. By the way, CEOs averaged $160,000, $77/hr. Biochemists averaged $89,000, $42.50/hr.
http://data.bls.gov:8080/oes/areatype.do

You're right that Bowzer Pre_med might feel differently in 10 years, but I don't know what they would prove except that it's hard to be objective when you've invested a lot of time and effort into something.

Don't get me wrong. I agree salaries have experienced some degree of decline, after adjusting for inflation and increasing loan burden. And they're peanuts compared to salaries in certain elite business sectors, including finance. But we're not in the poorhouse yet, or even close.
 
:laugh::laugh:

Medicinesux, SDN will soon become more like JDUnderground. If those guys are banned/reprimanded (already happening), then I'm sure we will see an MDUnderground pop up.

Thanks for continuing to publish the true story. These naive pre-meds need to be taught what's coming down the pike!

Just be careful what you wish for because you just might get it ==>


http://www.qfora.com/mdunderground/
 
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if you think physician pay is bad here then try working overseas. American docs are overpaid as it is and that is one of the reasons (not the primary reason) why the country is headed towards bankruptcy. The party is going to end sooner or later.

Oh ****, he's going to Buffalo. Make sure you tell everyone in your class how overpaid you guys are going to be. Good luck with that.
 
if you think physician pay is bad here then try working overseas. American docs are overpaid as it is and that is one of the reasons (not the primary reason) why the country is headed towards bankruptcy. The party is going to end sooner or later.

Hey crackhead, take a look at how much medical school costs in the US vs. other countries...then get back to us.
 
What a sad thread to read. This may sound like a conspiracy theory, but I am an amateur history and politics buff, so I can't help seeing things in a broader perspective.

The "divide and conquer" principle has worked for millennia and whether we want to admit it or not every country/society has a ruling class. Doctors as a group are NOT in the ruling class in the US, and especially because they do have more than average income and more education than most, they are prime targets for "divide and conquer" (they pose a greater threat to the ruling class).

Just a cursory glance over various internet fora will reveal to you that just as many people here feel that police officers are overpaid compared to doctors, there are millions of people who think doctors are grossly overpaid. Teachers begrudge the nurses' pay, nurses begrudge the doctors' pay, doctors' begrudge the police officers' pay, etc.

Groups within our society have been artificially pitted against each other, with great help from the media (which last I checked was owned by the aforementioned ruling class and NOT any doctors or police officers or the like). We, as a society, have lost our value system (I don't mean this in the "religious" or "family values" sense). It seems that a majority, or at least a sizable and very vocal minority, of us have subscribed to the false belief that no profession or calling has any inherent value, and nobody deserves to have more than the almighty "I and ME". The questions "If I don't have it, how come he has it? What does HE do that's so special?" is immediately answered with "He's not special, he definitely doesn't deserve it! He's no better than I!"

The quick and light dismissal of Ken Lay on this thread is also VERY telling. Did you notice just HOW quickly he was dropped and loggers and fishermen and nurses were brought in? It isn't even something that we are doing deliberately, but we have been nicely programmed so we do it without even thinking or trying. The argument that he is "unique", because
"Not everyone can go on and become a CEO of one of the top banks in the country."
is a statement of truth but NOT a reasonable argument. By the same logic, NOT everyone can go on and become the highest paid cop in the country. That officer is JUST as unique among cops as Ken Lay is among Bank CEOs. For the 5,000 LI cops that were mentioned who seem to be pulling in larger than average salaries, we can find 10,000 financial sector workers and CEOs, right in New York, who make multiple times the average salary of the LI cops, with little more than a B.A. or B.S.

The point I am trying to make is that as long as we as individuals and as subgroups within society (doctors) are busy bickering and looking for ways to undercut others, we do not notice the bigger picture. Look carefully at the past 30 or so years of American history (I like to use Kissinger as the starting point, I am not necessarily saying that there is a correlation, just that his time in power seems to coincide with the start of the spiral). The deterioration of the medical establishment and the slow but systematic marginalization of physicians as a group has been going on for 30+ years. I am not saying that the old establishment was great, or that we need to go back to it, but when old things are being discarded, as they often should be, new and better things must arise in their place. Why did we break down the old and imperfect establishment, so that we could end up with THIS mess on our hands? What a patently absurd course of events.

In many ways medicine has been hijacked from physicians (and their patients), and we are too busy worrying about cops' salaries to do something about it or even fully comprehend the situation (in some cases).

/end soap box speech, thanks for your attention
 
What a sad thread to read. This may sound like a conspiracy theory, but I am an amateur history and politics buff, so I can't help seeing things in a broader perspective.

The "divide and conquer" principle has worked for millennia and whether we want to admit it or not every country/society has a ruling class. Doctors as a group are NOT in the ruling class in the US, and especially because they do have more than average income and more education than most, they are prime targets for "divide and conquer" (they pose a greater threat to the ruling class).

Just a cursory glance over various internet fora will reveal to you that just as many people here feel that police officers are overpaid compared to doctors, there are millions of people who think doctors are grossly overpaid. Teachers begrudge the nurses' pay, nurses begrudge the doctors' pay, doctors' begrudge the police officers' pay, etc.

Groups within our society have been artificially pitted against each other, with great help from the media (which last I checked was owned by the aforementioned ruling class and NOT any doctors or police officers or the like). We, as a society, have lost our value system (I don't mean this in the "religious" or "family values" sense). It seems that a majority, or at least a sizable and very vocal minority, of us have subscribed to the false belief that no profession or calling has any inherent value, and nobody deserves to have more than the almighty "I and ME". The questions "If I don't have it, how come he has it? What does HE do that's so special?" is immediately answered with "He's not special, he definitely doesn't deserve it! He's no better than I!"

The quick and light dismissal of Ken Lay on this thread is also VERY telling. Did you notice just HOW quickly he was dropped and loggers and fishermen and nurses were brought in? It isn't even something that we are doing deliberately, but we have been nicely programmed so we do it without even thinking or trying. The argument that he is "unique", because
"Not everyone can go on and become a CEO of one of the top banks in the country."
is a statement of truth but NOT a reasonable argument. By the same logic, NOT everyone can go on and become the highest paid cop in the country. That officer is JUST as unique among cops as Ken Lay is among Bank CEOs. For the 5,000 LI cops that were mentioned who seem to be pulling in larger than average salaries, we can find 10,000 financial sector workers and CEOs, right in New York, who make multiple times the average salary of the LI cops, with little more than a B.A. or B.S.

The point I am trying to make is that as long as we as individuals and as subgroups within society (doctors) are busy bickering and looking for ways to undercut others, we do not notice the bigger picture. Look carefully at the past 30 or so years of American history (I like to use Kissinger as the starting point, I am not necessarily saying that there is a correlation, just that his time in power seems to coincide with the start of the spiral). The deterioration of the medical establishment and the slow but systematic marginalization of physicians as a group has been going on for 30+ years. I am not saying that the old establishment was great, or that we need to go back to it, but when old things are being discarded, as they often should be, new and better things must arise in their place. Why did we break down the old and imperfect establishment, so that we could end up with THIS mess on our hands? What a patently absurd course of events.

In many ways medicine has been hijacked from physicians (and their patients), and we are too busy worrying about cops' salaries to do something about it or even fully comprehend the situation (in some cases).

/end soap box speech, thanks for your attention

This is one of the best posts I have read in a very long time. Spot on. Thanks for posting it.
 
Fellas : pay attention to the averages. For every cop making 6 figures, there's going to be a bunch making closer to the 52k or 70k mentioned in the post above. For every 10 doctors making the median salary of 160k or so, there's going to be a doc making 1 million or more.

Fact is, while there has been declines, supply and demand mean that doctors are going to be pretty well paid for the foreseeable future. Not only are there massive artificial roadblocks on supply (medical school seats, residency spots) but there's huge demand, and an anticipated shortage over the next few decades.

Even if in 20-30 years from now there is a glut of doctors from all the baby boomers dying off and the big increase in medical school spots, that doesn't mean the careers of those of us in training now will be over. Today, there's a huge surplus of lawyers, but the established attorneys with superior records of winning cases are still very lavishly paid. If you work hard and make a name for yourself, in 30 years you could be making the big bucks even if the overall market for physicians tanks.
 
http://www.newsday.com/long-island/...246-374-going-after-drunken-drivers-1.1451129

I begin to realize more and more each and everyday that I plinkoed myself into the wrong profession. This was a mere cop (not a lieutenant, commander or police chief) just working overtime after only a decade on the job.

Another clear cut example of another profession plowing right past the stagnant pay of a physician like a Formula 1 driver overtaking a 90 year old grandma in her 1978 Yugo.
This is similar to saying that doctors are overpaid because some of them make 4 and even 10 million a year: Dermatology Professor's $4.3 Million Rivals College Coach Salaries

If you're going to look at the highest paid salary in one profession, make sure you compare it to the highest paid salary in another profession. I would say that almost every hospital in the nation has at least one doctor who consistently breaks a million/year. So what?
 
This is similar to saying that doctors are overpaid because some of them make 4 and even 10 million a year: Dermatology Professor's $4.3 Million Rivals College Coach Salaries

If you're going to look at the highest paid salary in one profession, make sure you compare it to the highest paid salary in another profession. I would say that almost every hospital in the nation has at least one doctor who consistently breaks a million/year. So what?

So what? Doctors SHOULD be making more than college coaches. In the same vain, I guess we should also say that if we are going to compare salaries between professions we should also compare MEDIAN salaries. Well guess what? Median police salaries in some areas are EQUAL to those of primary care salaries. Swallow that and then get back to me.
 
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I totally agree with you, medsucks....I don't understand why docs/residents can't muster up the intestinal fortitude to unionize and protect their salaries.

For those of us who agree with you, and I know there are a lot, what can we realistically do in order to protect ourselves?