List of dual degree programs?

[PreVet_ISU]

Howdy,

Does anybody know where to find a list of dual degree programs that you apply to separately from the DVM program.
For example, my in school says you apply to the DVM program and after you are accepted, you may apply for a dual program the year after. But I have heard some places you actually apply for the dual program as a separate entity from the DVM program. Would I apply to the dual program only, or apply to both the DVM and the dual........... does this make sense at all 😎?

TIA!

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[Caia]

Which dual degree program are you referring to?

DVM/PhD...DVM/MPH...DVM/MBA...?

 

[PreVet_ISU]

Mostly PhD but not discounting MPH!

 

[deleted387118]

I applied to my MPH separately from my DVM at Kansas State, I know of several DVM/PhD students at Kansas as well but I don't know if they applied together.

 

[sorasea]

Here is a list of DVM/PhD programs (2010).

You can click on individual schools for their admissions process. Most, if not all, will require you to submit the VMCAS, then submit an additional DVM/PhD-specific supplement to the school. So to answer your question, you will pretty much always apply to both the DVM and dual degree programs.

Some schools, like CSU, will use your VMCAS and DVM/PhD supplement to consider your application, BUT they will consider you first for the DVM/PhD program. If rejected, you are not automatically considered for the DVM program (even though you submitted the VMCAS), from what I understand.

That's the exception, though; the vast majority of these programs will let you get accepted to the DVM program separately if you're rejected from the dual degree. I actually consider these programs more annoying to apply to because they expect you to be independently qualified for both the DVM and PhD programs...and if you've trawled SDN, you know dang hard it is to get into a DVM program alone.

Caveat: my experience is limited to the big, fully-funded programs. I'd never do a DVM/PhD without some MAJOR moolah incentives.

 

[PreVet_ISU]

Here is a list of DVM/PhD programs (2010).

You can click on individual schools for their admissions process. Most, if not all, will require you to submit the VMCAS, then submit an additional DVM/PhD-specific supplement to the school. So to answer your question, you will pretty much always apply to both the DVM and dual degree programs.

Some schools, like CSU, will use your VMCAS and DVM/PhD supplement to consider your application, BUT they will consider you first for the DVM/PhD program. If rejected, you are not automatically considered for the DVM program (even though you submitted the VMCAS), from what I understand.

That's the exception, though; the vast majority of these programs will let you get accepted to the DVM program separately if you're rejected from the dual degree. I actually consider these programs more annoying to apply to because they expect you to be independently qualified for both the DVM and PhD programs...and if you've trawled SDN, you know dang hard it is to get into a DVM program alone.

Caveat: my experience is limited to the big, fully-funded programs. I'd never do a DVM/PhD without some MAJOR moolah incentives.

Nice!! Thanks for the link, it's what I was looking for! Are you attending a dual degree/ or have you applied anywhere yet?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Caveat: my experience is limited to the big, fully-funded programs. I'd never do a DVM/PhD without some MAJOR moolah incentives.

Absolutely. Funding is cutthroat right now.

I was actually told by most of the DVM/PhDs I knew to try to do my PhD at a medical school at all costs,because they were the ones that had the money. Or at least, if I insisted on doing it at a vet school, do it at one that had a medical school or major research centers attached to it via the university. Doing it at most vet school labs is just inviting financial eggshell-walking.

Vet schools do NOT get a lot of funding because we do a lot of animal-focused research - NIH, NSF, the people that make or break labs want to see human health research (and not just translational implications, I mean heavy human health).

 

[PreVet_ISU]

Absolutely. Funding is cutthroat right now.

I was actually told by most of the DVM/PhDs I knew to try to do my PhD at a medical school at all costs,because they were the ones that had the money. Or at least, if I insisted on doing it at a vet school, do it at one that had a medical school or major research centers attached to it via the university. Doing it at most vet school labs is just inviting financial eggshell-walking.

Vet schools do NOT get a lot of funding because we do a lot of animal-focused research - NIH, NSF, the people that make or break labs want to see human health research (and not just translational implications, I mean heavy human health).

So do you plan on doing that after you graduate with your DVM or at the same time during the summer?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

So do you plan on doing that after you graduate with your DVM or at the same time during the summer?

I graduated five years ago, did a residency, and am now in the middle of a PhD on an NIH T32 grant. They are super competitive, but are the only way I would do a PhD at a vet school because it guarantees salary funding at a postdoctoral level for three years. In addition, my actual lab and PI are outside the vet school (and well-funded), although technically I am getting my PhD in the vet school "department" if that makes sense.

I personally don't like the setup of most DVM/PhD programs. Going back and forth between clinical and bench can work, but can also end up disasterously. That is just my opinion, though. I feel like the quality of the research can suffer because peope are constantly leaving and coming back to it, and it is difficult to publish enough papers (that you will absolutely need for any research job after that.)

My suggestion in MOST cases (not all - dual degrees are very program dependent so I cannot speak for all of them) would be to do it afterwards at a 1) well-funded lab with a good reputation that is 2) producing numerous and quality papers in high-impact journals. Unfortunately, these labs tend to be (tend to be, I know there are indeed notable exceptions - and I encourage you to seek those out) outside of vet schools or doing research that is heavy on the human side. Not because there are not enough quality researchers, but simply because it is so difficult to get funding on the veterinary side. So it is definitely riskier.

Research is insanely cutthroat at the moment. Take it from someone in it. You cannot risk trying for a PhD in a lab with mediocre funding or one that isn't putting out enough papers. Your postdoc prospects (and yeah, you will most likely have to do a postdoc after anyways if you want be a PI) will not be good.

 

[PreVet_ISU]

Thanks for the info!! Great advice too!

 

[Caia]

I graduated five years ago, did a residency, and am now in the middle of a PhD on an NIH T32 grant. They are super competitive, but are the only way I would do a PhD at a vet school because it guarantees salary funding at a postdoctoral level for three years. In addition, my actual lab and PI are outside the vet school (and well-funded), although technically I am getting my PhD in the vet school "department" if that makes sense.

I personally don't like the setup of most DVM/PhD programs. Going back and forth between clinical and bench can work, but can also end up disasterously. That is just my opinion, though. I feel like the quality of the research can suffer because peope are constantly leaving and coming back to it, and it is difficult to publish enough papers (that you will absolutely need for any research job after that.)

My suggestion in MOST cases (not all - dual degrees are very program dependent so I cannot speak for all of them) would be to do it afterwards at a 1) well-funded lab with a good reputation that is 2) producing numerous and quality papers in high-impact journals. Unfortunately, these labs tend to be (tend to be, I know there are indeed notable exceptions - and I encourage you to seek those out) outside of vet schools or doing research that is heavy on the human side. Not because there are not enough quality researchers, but simply because it is so difficult to get funding on the veterinary side. So it is definitely riskier.

Research is insanely cutthroat at the moment. Take it from someone in it. You cannot risk trying for a PhD in a lab with mediocre funding or one that isn't putting out enough papers. Your postdoc prospects (and yeah, you will most likely have to do a postdoc after anyways if you want be a PI) will not be good.

Majority of pathologists where I'm at don't have PhDs. So you can always come teach me path instead! 😀 😉

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Majority of pathologists where I'm at don't have PhDs. So you can always come teach me path instead! 😀 😉

Aren't you in "Canadia"? 😀 Believe me, I have considered bolting and going out of the country.

 

[Njnealon]

Hey! I'm in a dual program currently, feel free to message me. 🙂

I applied to CSU, Penn. Davis, Tufts, and NCSU. CSU, Penn, and Davis pay for your veterinary tuition- and you have to declare residency if coming from out of state). I'm fairly certain graduate tuition in general, after rotations, is typically the responsibility of your home lab, and to an extent you, which comes from working with your mentor and applying for funding, etc.

So going off of what has been said in past comments here, where you do your PhD is important; you want a lab that is well-funded, and that is hard to come by in some research areas. I would look at the major research focuses of your school (for instance, CSU does a lot of infectious disease work as well as a large public health focus, and Penn has great molecular biology programs.) Also look at the opportunities for research within the program- Davis lets you apply to any graduate program outside of the veterinary school, and Penn has a lot of collaborative opportunities for translational research with its medical school). What might expand your opportunities for research funding in general is doing work with a translative component. If your projects could be applied to human health, for example, that could increase where and what type of grants yo could apply for. You can still incorporate a lot of elements of veterinary medicine into your work- for instance, dogs, cats, horses, etc can make great animal models in (and it doesn't necessarily have to be terminal animal work, which people sometimes picture animal-based research as). The relationship you develop with your PI is also very important to your career as a graduate student and beyond.

I think it is cool integrating veterinary knowledge into the research I'm doing, which is a unique perspective compared to having only a DVM or a PhD (which by themselves are still both highly-commendable degrees!)


As far as your original question about applications... For CSU and NSU, they had one form, and I had to write extra essays, and submit an extra reference or two. Davis had a vet application, and a separate combined application that gets submitted along with the Davis supplemental app. Penn had separate supplemental applications for the veterinary school and the VMD/PhD program. These schools all had set program structures too, for the most part. For all of these schools, you interview with a DVM/PhD committee, and/or the veterinary school (CSU and NCSU dont conduct veterinary interviews, just dual committee interviews). The schools all paid for hotel and flight for these interviews, which was awesome! For regular veterinary school interviews, I either had to drive, or pay my own way down.

Tufts had two completely separate applications and interview processes for grad and vet school. I never completely followed through with it, but after getting accepted to both programs separately, you have to speak with both schools and work out how to combine it. You could apply to two different graduate schools along with the college of veterinary medicine. They are Tuft's graduate program under the college of vet med, and Sackler school of medicine. Each as its own independent interview process too. Like I said, I'm not sure of all the details there, but it seemed like the student had most of the responsibility for structuring the program. That could be a good thing or a bad thing.

Either way, best of luck applying! 🙂

 

[PreVet_ISU]

Thanks! Great to know 🙂

 

[PreVet_ISU]

Now relooking at your comment, I noticed you said that they paid your vet tuition and you were responsible for the grad funds, I thought it was the other way around lol. Good thing I ask questions!

 

[Njnealon]

Now relooking at your comment, I noticed you said that they paid your vet tuition and you were responsible for the grad funds, I thought it was the other way around lol. Good thing I ask questions!

You're welcome! And paying tuition for graduate programs is a bit different than vet school. What I mean is, depending on the program, some schools might cover your tuition when you start there. Once you commit to a home lab, the lab usually covers your tuition, which is why funding is important. Your role there is to help write grants, etc, and help secure funding for your project. Also, students also get a monthly stipend to live off of, most likely from the nih for this type of research. It isnt a lot, but it covers rent and most of my bills. Next year when I start vet school (no stipend then), I'll take out a loan for living expenses. Given there are other things I could apply for, but I'm filling out fafsa just to be safe.

Where are you thinking of applying?

 

[PreVet_ISU]

You're welcome! And paying tuition for graduate programs is a bit different than vet school. What I mean is, depending on the program, some schools might cover your tuition when you start there. Once you commit to a home lab, the lab usually covers your tuition, which is why funding is important. Your role there is to help write grants, etc, and help secure funding for your project. Also, students also get a monthly stipend to live off of, most likely from the nih for this type of research. It isnt a lot, but it covers rent and most of my bills. Next year when I start vet school (no stipend then), I'll take out a loan for living expenses. Given there are other things I could apply for, but I'm filling out fafsa just to be safe.

Where are you thinking of applying?

Sigh, this is still up for debate. I think my first choice is Tufts, CSU, Penn, and my IS is Iowa. I have hard feelings over OOS tuition lol. I've heard mixed things about the reality of dual programs and so I think I just need to figure out where my passion is before I attempt to commit to something that could potentially cost me in the future.

 

[Njnealon]

Sigh, this is still up for debate. I think my first choice is Tufts, CSU, Penn, and my IS is Iowa. I have hard feelings over OOS tuition lol. I've heard mixed things about the reality of dual programs and so I think I just need to figure out where my passion is before I attempt to commit to something that could potentially cost me in the future.

CSU and Penn will cover your veterinary tuition, which can help as an OOS student. That would make a huge difference I'm sure! Also with Penn, you can apply to the program after starting VMD years there, which is nice, if you aren't completely sure yet if you want to do a VMD/PhD. Same with Cornell and Davis. 🙂

 

[PreVet_ISU]

That is good to know. Now I feel like this has opened up more schools to apply to lol. Good thing I get a nice chunk of taxes because I'm going to be shoveling out tons of application fees!

 

[sorasea]

Nice!! Thanks for the link, it's what I was looking for! Are you attending a dual degree/ or have you applied anywhere yet?

I applied this cycle, went to a few interviews, and have been accepted to 2 programs (waiting to hear back from 2 more!). Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions about applying.