List of Unranked Pass/Fail Medical Schools

[Dr. Meliodas]

I was told at one interview that regardless of what any schools tells you they have a class ranking system which is reported to residency program when you apply (not necessarily your exact place in the ranking is reported but general placement - like this student is in the top 10% or top 25%)

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[Lawpy]

I was told at one interview that regardless of what any schools tells you they have a class ranking system which is reported to residency program when you apply (not necessarily your exact place in the ranking is reported but general placement - like this student is in the top 10% or top 25%)

How would one school know what every school does regarding grades and class rank? I bet that school doesn’t have unranked pass/fail and is simply justifying their grading policy by projecting it to every school.

Again, i’m talking strictly preclinical grading here and i’m ignoring clinical grades/ranking.

 

[Lawpy]

I was under the impression that pre-clinical grades were largely ignored when applying for residency as step 1 takes priority. So in effect, unless you have a strong internal desire to be at the top of your class and "know everything" then it doesn't matter what you get pre-clinical as long as you pass. Essentially a graded system is effectively the same as P/F if one treats it that way...

At least this was what one school and its students tried to push at their interview, Is this accurate?

This further illustrates why every school should adopted unranked pass/fail for preclinical years. Not doing so places too much emphasis and stress on something that doesn’t matter in the long term.

 

[Welshman]

This further illustrates why every school should adopted unranked pass/fail for preclinical years. Not doing so places too much emphasis and stress on something that doesn’t matter in the long term.

So you would say thats an accurate characterization then?

 

[Lawpy]

So you would say thats an accurate characterization then?

At more competitive specialties and programs, minor things begin to matter, so a graded or ranked pass/fail preclinical curriculum is a huge negative for otherwise strong students.

 

[MSTPlease]

Out of curiosity...do any of the students here actually feel non-P/F grading causing some kind of pressure or competition IRL?

My friend at SUNY-Upstate certainly felt that way. I remember talking about how around exam time I would get inundated with classmates emailing out resources/study guides to help out each other and he said that kind of thing never happened and that people never helped classmates outside their close friends.

 

[MSTPlease]

How would one school know what every school does regarding grades and class rank? I bet that school doesn’t have unranked pass/fail and is simply justifying their grading policy by projecting it to every school.

Again, i’m talking strictly preclinical grading here and i’m ignoring clinical grades/ranking.

Bold = 100% truth

 

[Suffer]

Can we stay on topic and discuss unranked pass-fail med schools, whether preclinical only or all 4 years?

I know Vandy med and iirc Stanford are both unranked P-F preclinical. Harvard too

 

[Lawpy]

Can we stay on topic and discuss unranked pass-fail med schools, whether preclinical only or all 4 years?

I know Vandy med and iirc Stanford are both unranked P-F preclinical. Harvard too

Apparently, CCLCM is the only school with all years unranked pass/fail. They can get away because of small class size and strong reputation.

For unranked pass/fail preclinical curricula, I think the list is:

Harvard
Stanford
Hopkins
Yale
Columbia
Sinai
Cornell
Emory
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Pitt

If anyone knows of any other school with unranked pass/fail, let us know. @Fuarky you can add this list to your first post.

 

[Med Ed]

I am unsure because I haven't personally encountered such a predicament. It was something I noted during my second year when I learned about the grading for that course.

The final mark on the transcript is what's important. It's possible that "90 - fail" would just be a reminder to the registrar when the grade is eventually replaced.

 

[Med Ed]

I was under the impression that pre-clinical grades were largely ignored when applying for residency as step 1 takes priority. So in effect, unless you have a strong internal desire to be at the top of your class and "know everything" then it doesn't matter what you get pre-clinical as long as you pass. Essentially a graded system is effectively the same as P/F if one treats it that way...

At least this was what one school and its students tried to push at their interview, Is this accurate?

Indeed, this is why going P/F in the preclinical years hasn't met with much pushback from residency PD's. They only really caught someone's eye if they were extremely good or extremely bad, so the cost/benefit is relatively low.

 

[Med Ed]

How would one school know what every school does regarding grades and class rank? I bet that school doesn’t have unranked pass/fail and is simply justifying their grading policy by projecting it to every school.

Again, i’m talking strictly preclinical grading here and i’m ignoring clinical grades/ranking.

What @Dr. Meliodas is referring to is the comparative information that relates to clerkship performance, not preclinical grades. Periodically someone publishes a longitudinal study of MSPE contents, like this one from last year:

Our study sample included MSPEs from 117 (89%) of 131 LCME-accredited U.S. medical schools. Of the schools in our sample, 14 (12%) did not use key words or any ranking system.

...snip...

Of the 117 medical schools in our sample, 116 (99%) provided at least some information on the grading scheme used for clerkships, and 96 (82%) provided complete distribution data for grades assigned in each clerkship. The total number of grades used ranged from 2 to 10, and two schools used a 0–100 numeric scale (Figure 3A). The most common grading scheme used 4 grades (n = 39; 33%). Figure 3B shows the distribution of the top clerkship grade in internal medicine among students at the 96 schools that provided complete distribution data. The median percentage of students receiving the top grade was 29% (interquartile range: 23%–39%; range: 2%–90%), though there was marked variability: 24 (25%) of the 96 schools awarded the top grade to >= 39% of students, and 10 (10%) awarded the top grade to >= 50% of students.

Bottom line: as of 2016 the inclusion of comparative information in MSPE's was common but not universal or standardized.

 

[begoood95]

Apparently, CCLCM is the only school with all years unranked pass/fail. They can get away because of small class size and strong reputation.

For unranked pass/fail preclinical curricula, I think the list is:

Harvard
Stanford
Hopkins
Yale
Columbia
Sinai
Cornell
Emory
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Pitt

If anyone knows of any other school with unranked pass/fail, let us know. @Fuarky you can add this list to your first post.

You’re missing

• Mayo (MN and AZ),
• UCSD,
• UCLA,
• UCSF,
• George Washington,
• USC,
• UBoston,
• Albert Einstein,
• Perelman,
• Georgetown,
• UPittsburgh,
• Chicago Pritzker,
• NYU,
• Hofstra, and
• UW.

 

[Lawpy]

You’re missing

• Mayo (MN and AZ),
• UCSD,
• UCLA,
• UCSF,
• George Washington,
• USC,
• UBoston,
• Albert Einstein,
• Perelman,
• Georgetown,
• UPittsburgh,
• Chicago Pritzker,
• NYU,
• Hofstra, and
• UW.

I thought NYU has internally ranked P/F... unless they changed that recently? Same with Penn grading having H/P/F. Not sure whether that's changed recently.

 

[Dr. Meliodas]

You’re missing

• Mayo (MN and AZ),
• UCSD,
• UCLA,
• UCSF,
• George Washington,
• USC,
• UBoston,
• Albert Einstein,
• Perelman,
• Georgetown,
• UPittsburgh,
• Chicago Pritzker,
• NYU,
• Hofstra, and
• UW.

At GW I was told that there is an internal ranking system during pre-clinical years its just not told to the students.

 

[begoood95]

I thought NYU has internally ranked P/F... unless they changed that recently? Same with Penn grading having H/P/F. Not sure whether that's changed recently.

You're right, looking back at my notes it looks like Perelman has a mix of P/F and H/HP/P/F. As far as I know, however, I thought NYU was just P/F... but I could be wrong.

At GW I was told that there is an internal ranking system during pre-clinical years its just not told to the students.

Well... Officially it's P/F, but I've never heard of the internal ranking system. It could be true.

 

[Lawpy]

You're right, looking back at my notes it looks like Perelman has a mix of P/F and H/HP/P/F. As far as I know, however, I thought NYU was just P/F... but I could be wrong.

Well... Officially it's P/F, but I've never heard of the internal ranking system. It could be true.

Right that's where it gets difficult. I don't think schools with ranked P/F necessarily openly say that they rank internally. The information is usually provided by students at those schools, so we're relying heavily on that.

Also, I think Hofstra is indeed unranked P/F for preclinical years and maybe the Mayos (do both Mayo campuses have essentially the same preclinical curricula?). Not too certain.

Pretty sure @WedgeDawg mentioned NYU was internally ranked P/F but I don't know whether this is currently true. Pritzker is probably unranked P/F from what I read so will add that, Hofstra and two Mayos.

No idea about the UCs or the rest but I'll take your word.

 

[begoood95]

Right that's where it gets difficult. I don't think schools with ranked P/F necessarily openly say that they rank internally. The information is usually provided by students at those schools, so we're relying heavily on that.

Also, I think Hofstra is indeed unranked P/F for preclinical years and maybe the Mayos (do both Mayo campuses have essentially the same preclinical curricula?). Not too certain.

Pretty sure @WedgeDawg mentioned NYU was internally ranked P/F but I don't know whether this is currently true. Pritzker is probably unranked P/F from what I read so will add that, Hofstra and two Mayos.

No idea about the UCs or the rest but I'll take your word.

Yeah, that does make things a little more difficult. That'd be a little more than annoying to not know for some people!

I only interviewed at Mayo MN, but as far as I know, both campuses have essentially the same curriculum; I presume their grading systems are the same as well.

 

[IWillMakeIt1]

You’re missing

• Mayo (MN and AZ),
• UCSD,
• UCLA,
• UCSF,
• George Washington,
• USC,
• UBoston,
• Albert Einstein,
• Perelman,
• Georgetown,
• UPittsburgh,
• Chicago Pritzker,
• NYU,
• Hofstra, and
• UW.

I’ll add one as well:

• Mayo (MN and AZ),
• UCSD,
• UCLA,
• UCSF,
• George Washington,
• USC,
• UBoston,
• Albert Einstein,
• Perelman,
• Georgetown,
• UPittsburgh,
• Chicago Pritzker,
• NYU,
• Hofstra, and
• UW.
• Einstein

 

[begoood95]

I’ll add one as well:

• Mayo (MN and AZ),
• UCSD,
• UCLA,
• UCSF,
• George Washington,
• USC,
• UBoston,
• Albert Einstein,
• Perelman,
• Georgetown,
• UPittsburgh,
• Chicago Pritzker,
• NYU,
• Hofstra, and
• UW.
• Einstein

Look 8 slots above your addition

 

[IWillMakeIt1]

Look 8 slots above your addition

Hahaha didn’t need realize that

 

[Trollest]

• Mayo (MN and AZ),
• UCSD,
• UCLA,
• UCSF,
• George Washington,
• USC,
• UBoston,
• Albert Einstein,
• Perelman,
• Georgetown,
• UPittsburgh,
• Chicago Pritzker,
• NYU,
• Hofstra, and
• UW
• Einstein.
• UT Rio Grande Valley
• NSU (first two years are P/F)

 

[Lawpy]

• Mayo (MN and AZ),
• UCSD,
• UCLA,
• UCSF,
• George Washington,
• USC,
• UBoston,
• Albert Einstein,
• Perelman,
• Georgetown,
• UPittsburgh,
• Chicago Pritzker,
• NYU,
• Hofstra, and
• UW
• Einstein.
• UT Rio Grande Valley
• NSU (first two years are P/F)

We're listing only unranked pass/fail. Just use the list I made earlier

Harvard
Stanford
Hopkins
Yale
Columbia
Sinai
Cornell
Emory
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Pitt
UChicago
Hofstra

 

[Trollest]

We're listing only unranked pass/fail. Just use the list I made earlier

Harvard
Stanford
Hopkins
Yale
Columbia
Sinai
Cornell
Emory
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Pitt
UChicago
Hofstra

So unranked medical school which have a pass / F curriculum right? If so then

Harvard
Stanford
Hopkins
Yale
Columbia
Sinai
Cornell
Emory
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Pitt
UChicago
NSU
UT Rio Grande Valley

 

[Nalsjewels]

Duke is unranked and P/F for preclinicals.

So unranked medical school which have a pass / F curriculum right? If so then

Harvard
Stanford
Hopkins
Yale
Columbia
Sinai
Cornell
Emory
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Pitt
UChicago
NSU
UT Rio Grande Valley

 

[Lawpy]

So unranked medical school which have a pass / F curriculum right? If so then

Harvard
Stanford
Hopkins
Yale
Columbia
Sinai
Cornell
Emory
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Pitt
UChicago
NSU
UT Rio Grande Valley

I mean any medical is fine as long as they have pass/fail preclinical curriculum that has no internal rankings whatsoever.

 

[GoJackets1850]

We're listing only unranked pass/fail. Just use the list I made earlier

Harvard
Stanford
Hopkins
Yale
Columbia
Sinai
Cornell
Emory
Northwestern
Vanderbilt
Pitt
UChicago
Hofstra

RWJ is also pass/fail unranked!

 

[ERDOC555]

Very true. A point that sometimes gets lost in this discussion is the fact that just because a school doesn't compile a formal rank of its students doesn't mean that it does not have copious amounts of performance data. The question comes down to what the school decides to do with it all.

Also, there ranking and then there is ranking. The old school method was a linear scale with every student numbered. Now it's more common to see quartiles or quintiles, which allows some camouflage for lower performing students. You can argue that both are ranking systems, although I believe there are substantial difference between the two approaches.

If you go to a AAMC meeting, standardizing the MSPE is one of the top two dead, beaten horses (#1 is a cap on residency applications). With the release of the MSPE Task Force's report last year it will be interesting to see how much uptake occurs in the next few years.

With regard to the "comparative information" included in MSPE's, a lot of it involves histograms of grade distributions to provide some context for a given student's marks. An Honors means a lot more if it's earned by 10% of the class versus 50%. Conversely, a Pass isn't so damning if that grade is given to 80% of the class.

Hey Med Ed,

I had a question for you about rankings in the MSPE. One of my friends claimed that her school literally had no type of ranking whatsoever on the deans letter. No quartiles, ranks, or adjectives that correspond to quartiles. Apparently the only thing to show up are P/F for pre-clinical and then the core rotations, each one with a histogram for H, HP, P, F.

Do you think this is accurate? Are there schools that lack any sort of ranking at all at the end of 4 years?

And more importantly, if that is the case, do you think that it helps or hurts applicants coming from the school? What do PDs think about this?

 

[21Rush12]

My friend at SUNY-Upstate certainly felt that way. I remember talking about how around exam time I would get inundated with classmates emailing out resources/study guides to help out each other and he said that kind of thing never happened and that people never helped classmates outside their close friends.

Interesting...I ask because my experience at a H/HP/P/F school is basically that it is completely irrelevant. We share all sorts of things, the classes are very collaborative and it has had absolutely no effect on my life whatsoever.

I don’t want to derail the thread...thank you also @Med Ed for your detailed response.

 

[Med Ed]

Hey Med Ed,

I had a question for you about rankings in the MSPE. One of my friends claimed that her school literally had no type of ranking whatsoever on the deans letter. No quartiles, ranks, or adjectives that correspond to quartiles. Apparently the only thing to show up are P/F for pre-clinical and then the core rotations, each one with a histogram for H, HP, P, F.

Do you think this is accurate? Are there schools that lack any sort of ranking at all at the end of 4 years?

And more importantly, if that is the case, do you think that it helps or hurts applicants coming from the school? What do PDs think about this?

There are absolutely schools that do this. Having no ranking (e.g. quartiles) in the letter may help those at the bottom while not helping those at the top, although I would guess the overall effect is almost negligible. It's important to remember in all this that the MSPE is but one element of a larger application package, they are virtually all written to be a supportive as possible (while maintaining some semblance of credibility), and not everyone reads them very carefully.

I have been told by a couple of PD's that when the MSPE contains scan useful information it simply forces them to weigh Step scores more heavily.

 

[deleted421268]

What about WVU Med and Penn State Med? Are there unranked P/F in regards to Osteopathic as well?

 

[MSTPlease]

I have been told by a couple of PD's that when the MSPE contains scan useful information it simply forces them to weigh Step scores more heavily.

This will be changing going forward. Last year recommendations were put out about what should and shouldn't be in the MSPE because any schools included way too much information. A lot of schools drastically trimmed down their MSPEs this year and going forward I think they will be read far more often because they will contain mostly information exclusively found in the MSPEs instead of being a rehash of an applicant's entire application as they often were.

In terms of what unranked pass/fail looks like on a MSPE, here is mine copied and pasted:

Year 1 and 2 Record
Year 1 and 2 courses utilize a Pass/Fail grading system. The Art and Science of Medicine course also provides a narrative summary of a student's performance which is provided below. [MSTPlease] passed all courses in year 1 and 2.

Sinai has also now switched to no longer providing an "overall rank" because the way they used to do it was flawed and they decided to just let the application stand on its own so it now concludes with this:

[MSTPlease] has, to date, achieved the core competencies for the MD program at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai. Our school does not rank students. Comparative performance in the core clerkships is included in the Academic Progress section, and [MSTPlease]’s unique experiences and major accomplishments can be found in the Noteworthy Characteristics section.

 

[Lawpy]

There are absolutely schools that do this. Having no ranking (e.g. quartiles) in the letter may help those at the bottom while not helping those at the top, although I would guess the overall effect is almost negligible. It's important to remember in all this that the MSPE is but one element of a larger application package, they are virtually all written to be a supportive as possible (while maintaining some semblance of credibility), and not everyone reads them very carefully.

I have been told by a couple of PD's that when the MSPE contains scan useful information it simply forces them to weigh Step scores more heavily.

The top applicants can distinguish themselves in many ways. Not having rankings allows them to use the time more productively to pump out a lot of papers and presentations, so I don't know why schools with ranked P/F and graded systems are using that argument to justify their grading policy. Program directors don't care about preclinical grades, and yet schools with ranked P/F and graded curricula are placing undue emphasis on something that doesn't matter in the long run.

IIRC from what I read in the NRMP report, I'm pretty sure MSPEs are very important... along with Step scores, clinical grades, clinical letters and research productivity. Preclinical grades are not important, and eliminating grades/ranks helps students to focus on what's actually and truly important.