LMU vs. WCU... Looking for advice

[hd316]

I've been accepted to the Lincoln Memorial (LMU) Master's in Biomedical Professions and the William Carey University (WCU) Master's in Biomedical Sciences programs, and having a tough time deciding on which to attend this fall. Both programs are one year, have similar curriculums, and claim to have high matriculation rates into medical school. Due to my lower stats, wherever I go for the MS program I will likely **hopefully** go to med school. So it’s pretty much a yearlong interview. Because of this, I have been looking at both med schools’ curriculums, rotations, research opportunities, etc., which is factoring into my current decision. If I’m putting the cart before the horse, please let me know.


LMU Pros:
- Guaranteed interview at LMU-DCOM if Fall GPA is >3.0
- Opportunity to earn up to 15 credit hours for med school
- 80% acceptance rate into med school


LMU Cons:
- Larger class size (~125 for both MS programs)
- Cost is higher (34k)
- Location isn’t ideal, but I can get over that


WCU Pros:
- Classes taught by the WCUCOM professors
- Small class size, easy to make connections/make a name for yourself
- Cost is lower (20k)


WCU Cons:
- 50% (7/14) of MBS students that applied to WCUCOM were accepted
- Relatively new program
- Seems to be mixed emotions about the medical school (prep for boards and mandatory attendance being the key issues)
- Tornado wiped out their entire campus, however, they promise that everything will be rebuilt by August 2017.



Any advice/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

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[MADD!!!]

LMU. They have their act together and I don't know what they do, but they prep their students very well for boards.

WCU is borderline the worst DO school unfortunately for various reasons. I would not recommend at all.

 

[ctran019]

IMO, the most important thing when considering a SMP would be the % of students who get linked into the same medical school followed by the total % of students accepted to med school the same year.

You aren't paying thousands of $$$ to make friends you are paying for a chance to go to med school


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[Wjldenver]

IMO, the most important thing when considering a SMP would be the % of students who get linked into the same medical school followed by the total % of students accepted to med school the same year.

You aren't paying thousands of $$$ to make friends you are paying for a chance to go to med school


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This advice is right on... As a third data point, factor in cost. These three bits of empirical information are all you need to pick between any SMP/Post-Bacc program.

 

[PamSpammer]

Definitely LMU

 

[hd316]

This advice is right on... As a third data point, factor in cost. These three bits of empirical information are all you need to pick between any SMP/Post-Bacc program.

I agree with that as well, the only reason to attend an SMP is to get to the next level. Which do you think would offer more opportunities, LMU or WCU, assuming I make A's?

 

[pilonidalcyst]

LMU. They have their act together and I don't know what they do, but they prep their students very well for boards.

WCU is borderline the worst DO school unfortunately for various reasons. I would not recommend at all.

They have historically done very little. They give students roughly 3 weeks dedicated, which results in below average board scores.

That being said, LMU is more established. I believe that with the new dean, things will move in the right direction. Your 'connections' will not matter if you go to WCU. Virtually everybody from the master's program will get accepted somewhere-- it's an easy decision.

 

[Wjldenver]

I agree with that as well, the only reason to attend an SMP is to get to the next level. Which do you think would offer more opportunities, LMU or WCU, assuming I make A's?

Just do some thorough due diligence on both programs. Contact the schools to determine not only what percent of students matriculate to their own DO program but what percent of students matriculate to other DO or MD programs upon graduation. Also, determine if there is a guaranteed linkage to the school's DO program if you attain a pre-determined GPA. Be careful though, some SMP programs grade stringently, and many students can't make the GPA cut even though they thought they could upon entrance. So the main take away is collect more information on both programs in order to make an informed decision. Just a phone call to both school's, with the right questions, will get you the information you need.

 

[hd316]

They have historically done very little. They give students roughly 3 weeks dedicated, which results in below average board scores.

That being said, LMU is more established. I believe that with the new dean, things will move in the right direction. Your 'connections' will not matter if you go to WCU. Virtually everybody from the master's program will get accepted somewhere-- it's an easy decision.

So you think LMU would be the btter program? Also, are you referring to LMU when you say virtually everybody gets accepted somewhere?

 

[pilonidalcyst]

So you think LMU would be the btter program? Also, are you referring to LMU when you say virtually everybody gets accepted somewhere?

It's a non-decision. Go to LMU and don't look back. Do well in the program, apply to other schools while in the master's program, and see where you land. You'll more than likely have an acceptance at LMU, so applying elsewhere would definitely be encouraged. The exemption from histology, anatomy, and neuroanatomy are great, but wouldn't keep me from turning down an LMU acceptance for a more established school (e.g. PCOM, MSU, TCOM).

 

[MADD!!!]

They have historically done very little. They give students roughly 3 weeks dedicated, which results in below average board scores.

That being said, LMU is more established. I believe that with the new dean, things will move in the right direction. Your 'connections' will not matter if you go to WCU. Virtually everybody from the master's program will get accepted somewhere-- it's an easy decision.

I see where their students match and it's crazy. I really don't know what they're doing or how they prep, but they must be doing something right. I think they got 9 ortho matches in 2016, and LMU is generally seen as a low-tier DO with some of the lowest gpa/mcat averages for acceptance.

So to get 9 students into any Ortho program is quite a feat for any school.

 

[pilonidalcyst]

I see where their students match and it's crazy. I really don't know what they're doing or how they prep, but they must be doing something right. I think they got 9 ortho matches in 2016, and LMU is generally seen as a low-tier DO with some of the lowest gpa/mcat averages for acceptance.

So to get 9 students into any Ortho program is quite a feat for any school.

There were undoubtedly talented students who matched competitive specialties (e.g. ACGME Ortho). That being said, there are competitive matches from any class, and the DCOM average board score is below average. To reiterate an often made point; match lists tell you very little about a class as a whole.

 

[saltydog15]

They have historically done very little. They give students roughly 3 weeks dedicated, which results in below average board scores.

That being said, LMU is more established. I believe that with the new dean, things will move in the right direction. Your 'connections' will not matter if you go to WCU. Virtually everybody from the master's program will get accepted somewhere-- it's an easy decision.

DCOM student here. They do not provide any sort of board prep so you're on your own there but all courses are designed to maximize what's seen on boards, as well as how test questions are written. Eerily similar from what I've heard.

Hard core science courses end on April 10, the remaining time is dedicated time and patient care courses (OMM..etc). More than 3 weeks for boards.

People always think the match list here is weak but also forget that nearly 70% of the students are local and want to stay in the area, hence heavy regional preference with residencies.




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[pilonidalcyst]

DCOM student here. They do not provide any sort of board prep so you're on your own there but all courses are designed to maximize what's seen on boards, as well as how test questions are written. Eerily similar from what I've heard.

Hard core science courses end on April 10, the remaining time is dedicated time and patient care courses (OMM..etc). More than 3 weeks for boards.

People always think the match list here is weak but also forget that nearly 70% of the students are local and want to stay in the area, hence heavy regional preference with residencies.




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Courses "designed to maximize what is seen on boards" is basically a way of saying you'll be in medical school. That is not a pro or a con, but it is an expectation of every school. And as far as test questions written in a board-style fashion...I'm going to assume you're a M1 and haven't really looked at much board review material because the vast majority of DCOM test questions are 1st order, whereas board stuff requires a much higher level of thinking.

 

[saltydog15]

Courses "designed to maximize what is seen on boards" is basically a way of saying you'll be in medical school. That is not a pro or a con, but it is an expectation of every school. And as far as test questions written in a board-style fashion...I'm going to assume you're a M1 and haven't really looked at much board review material because the vast majority of DCOM test questions are 1st order, whereas board stuff requires a much higher level of thinking.

Great assumption, because no one uses question banks to study. Just my 0.02, you can be as cynical as you want. I'm entitled to my opinion.


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[dfib slim]

Courses "designed to maximize what is seen on boards" is basically a way of saying you'll be in medical school. That is not a pro or a con, but it is an expectation of every school. And as far as test questions written in a board-style fashion...I'm going to assume you're a M1 and haven't really looked at much board review material because the vast majority of DCOM test questions are 1st order, whereas board stuff requires a much higher level of thinking.

I'm a 4th year at DCOM who got in the 700s on both comlex 1 and 2. I felt like they did a good job with material and amount of dedicated time. Obviously you have to put in the extra effort on your own to do well. They lower average board scores is probably a function of their lower admission stats and not their coursework/exams.

 

[hd316]

It's a non-decision. Go to LMU and don't look back. Do well in the program, apply to other schools while in the master's program, and see where you land. You'll more than likely have an acceptance at LMU, so applying elsewhere would definitely be encouraged. The exemption from histology, anatomy, and neuroanatomy are great, but wouldn't keep me from turning down an LMU acceptance for a more established school (e.g. PCOM, MSU, TCOM).

I've applied to the PCOM-GA Masters program as well, and will find out the admission decision on 3/31. If I'm accepted there, would you think that would be a better program/med school?

The only thing I don't like about the PCOM program is that it's 2 years instead of 1.

This is a little off topic, but I've been accepted to a modified 2 year Masters program at Vanderbilt, and considering that as well. I can choose all my classes, but still have to work part-time in my current lab. Any thoughts on this?


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[Shotapp]

@hd316

PCOM's BMS can be done in a year and you will receive a certificate after completing the foundation year. If you continue onto the 2nd year you get the full degree (masters). I would do the program that is within your vicinity. Which program are you closer to?

 

[hd316]

@hd316

PCOM's BMS can be done in a year and you will receive a certificate after completing the foundation year. If you continue onto the 2nd year you get the full degree (masters). I would do the program that is within your vicinity. Which program are you closer to?

I live in Nashville, so the Vanderbilt program is closest, and it's also the cheapest. I'm concerned about the lack of linkage with a medical school with the Vandy program though, because my stats could never get me into Vanderbilt med school. The LMU and PCOM-GA are the next closest.


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[Shotapp]

The Vanderbilt program with little to no linkage to its medical school might not be in your best interest then (you should think it through). How soon do you want to get into medical school? LMU's program I think is a year long and they get a good number of people from their BMS into their DO program. In the LMU program, if you pass certain courses with an A or B, I believe you will be exempt from taking those courses again in the DO program. PCOM-GA is a good program too but based on what I have read, fewer people gain admission into their DO program after the foundation year.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Neither.

Go to the LECOM post bacc program. It is "guaranteed acceptance" if you maintain a 3.0+ in the program. Everyone who got a 3.0 in the program, barring any sort of alcohol or other inappropriate problems was accepted into the next years class.

There are very few programs that offer what LECOM does.

 

[hd316]

The Vanderbilt program with little to no linkage to its medical school might not be in your best interest then (you should think it through). How soon do you want to get into medical school? LMU's program I think is a year long and they get a good number of people from their BMS into their DO program. In the LMU program, if you pass certain courses with an A or B, I believe you will be exempt from taking those courses again in the DO program. PCOM-GA is a good program too but based on what I have read, fewer people gain admission into their DO program after the foundation year.

I want to start med school as soon as possible, which steers me away PCOM and Vandy, but I feel like a MS from either of those schools would carry more weight when I apply for med school.


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[bethygean]

I would say go with LMU simply for the higher acceptance rate. If the only reason you are doing the program is to get accepted into a medical school, go with the program more likely to yield that outcome. And LMU isn't a far drive from Knoxville so there are things to do on the weekends. I am from there and was accepted at LMU this cycle and cannot speak highly enough of it. It is a larger class size but I think they have an excellent program and facilities.


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[hd316]

I would say go with LMU simply for the higher acceptance rate. If the only reason you are doing the program is to get accepted into a medical school, go with the program more likely to yield that outcome. And LMU isn't a far drive from Knoxville so there are things to do on the weekends. I am from there and was accepted at LMU this cycle and cannot speak highly enough of it. It is a larger class size but I think they have an excellent program and facilities.


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I've spoken to a few LMU students that live in North Knoxville and actually commute daily, and they obviously love the recorded lectures and non-mandatory attendance policy. Do you think that commute is doable/smart? Or am I wasting too much time driving back and forth?


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[bethygean]

I've spoken to a few LMU students that live in North Knoxville and actually commute daily, and they obviously love the recorded lectures and non-mandatory attendance policy. Do you think that commute is doable/smart? Or am I wasting too much time driving back and forth?


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It's definitely doable, but I'd recommend living there and commuting to Knoxville when needed...just seems easier to me. I'm not going to be attending LMU but I'll have an hour commute every morning and every afternoon at the medical school I'll be attending. My plan is just to make it as productive as possible to listening to lectures as I drive.


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[pilonidalcyst]

Great assumption, because no one uses question banks to study. Just my 0.02, you can be as cynical as you want. I'm entitled to my opinion.

Not sure what your point is. Are you trying to say that the questions are eerily similar to boards? Some classes are- Pharm is excellent, as is micro, the clinical lectures second year are a little sketchy. Has nothing to do with being cynical, it's my opinion- something to which I too am entitled.


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I'm a 4th year at DCOM who got in the 700s on both comlex 1 and 2. I felt like they did a good job with material and amount of dedicated time. Obviously you have to put in the extra effort on your own to do well. They lower average board scores is probably a function of their lower admission stats and not their coursework/exams.

Definitely agree that it's up to the student to put time into studying. I did not heed the advice of the school, and have been reviewing QBank questions since August, something that's not too uncommon. Also agree that while students bitch and moan about board scores they fail to look at the fact that DCOM has lower admission standards than the nat'l average.

I'm glad you felt the dedicated time was adequate- a lot in our class had issues with it. I didn't really care one way or the other, but the class as a whole was pretty vocal about our perceived lack of dedicated time with respect to other DO schools.

 

[hd316]

I've sent in my deposit for LMU, but I just received an acceptance letter for the Mercer University MS in Preclinical Sciences program. Does anyone know much about this program? I'm pretty interested in it because Mercer is an MD granting school. Their website says ~65% of graduates have been accepted into professional school and ~35% have been accepted into Mercer Medical School. It seems like LMU has a better track record for getting people into medical school.

 

[hd316]

I was just accepted to the Tulane MS in Physiology program. Does anyone know much about the success of graduates from the program? Trying to choose between Tulane, Mercer, LMU, and PCOM-GA.

 

[pilonidalcyst]

I was just accepted to the Tulane MS in Physiology program. Does anyone know much about the success of graduates from the program? Trying to choose between Tulane, Mercer, LMU, and PCOM-GA.

If you're trying to decide between the MS programs at each of these schools, I'd go to the MD one with the best linkage. IIRC, Tulane has a fairly decent program. The one at LMU has historically been little more than a formality aimed at getting another year of tuition out of students while accepting the majority of them a year later.

 

[Docwannabe1112]

Do you mind telling me your stats when you applied for Mercer Preclinical program?

 

[Major]

LMU

But no matter which program you go to, You MUST ABSOLUTELY crush it! I am not joking here, You have to treat the SMP as if you are a med student. SMPs connected to a med school are not a walk in the park. You have to get every A you can. Doing well in a SMP can open many great doors for you....not doing well can close those doors and they might never open back up.

 

[hd316]

LMU

But no matter which program you go to, You MUST ABSOLUTELY crush it! I am not joking here, You have to treat the SMP as if you are a med student. SMPs connected to a med school are not a walk in the park. You have to get every A you can. Doing well in a SMP can open many great doors for you....not doing well can close those doors and they might never open back up.

So you would choose LMU? Is that because of the guaranteed interview or something else?

And yes, I have to crush whichever SMP I go to, otherwise .....

 

[Major]

So you would choose LMU? Is that because of the guaranteed interview or something else?

And yes, I have to crush whichever SMP I go to, otherwise .....

I would choose LMU.

WCU campus, very unfortunately, was partially destroyed by a tornado earlier in the year. I just don't know how much the situation has stabilized or not down there.

You can DM GordonGekko-they did LMU's smp and got accepted into LMU

 

[hd316]

I would choose LMU.

WCU campus, very unfortunately, was partially destroyed by a tornado earlier in the year. I just don't know how much the situation has stabilized or not down there.

You can DM GordonGekko-they did LMU's smp and got accepted into LMU

WCU is out. My decision is now between LMU-DCOM and Tulane.

 

[Wjldenver]

WCU is out. My decision is now between LMU-DCOM and Tulane.

You already put down a deposit at LMU so go there. Your competition at LMU will probably be significantly less than your competition at Tulane which is one of the top national universities. If you just want to get into a DO school go to LMU. If you think you have a realistic chance to get into an MD program after an SMP pick Tulane. You need to do a realistic self assessment to determine your optimal choice.


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[brew]

The Tulane program that is the SMP there is the Anatomy Certification & Leadership Program. I would ask how many get in from your program and ask for specifics. I remember reading that the numbers to Tulane after MS aren't high at all unless you doing the Anatomy Cert.

 

[hd316]

You already put down a deposit at LMU so go there. Your competition at LMU will probably be significantly less than your competition at Tulane which is one of the top national universities. If you just want to get into a DO school go to LMU. If you think you have a realistic chance to get into an MD program after an SMP pick Tulane. You need to do a realistic self assessment to determine your optimal choice.


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Honestly I think my best chance is DO, but does that mean I should go to a DO SMP? Or should I go to the best SMP I can get into?

My stats aren't competitive for MD schools: graduated in 2014 with cGPA 2.85, sGPA 3.0 (both w/ upward trends and essentialy all A's during senior year), MCAT 500, 300+ hours volunteering, 2.5 years as an ER scribe, and 1.5 of cardiology/pulmonology research at Vanderbilt (1 first author publication, 2 co-author publications, a dozen presentations at international conferences).

 

[hd316]

The Tulane program that is the SMP there is the Anatomy Certification & Leadership Program. I would ask how many get in from your program and ask for specifics. I remember reading that the numbers to Tulane after MS aren't high at all unless you doing the Anatomy Cert.

So it's not the Anatomy program, because I'm not currently waitlisted at a medical school. The 1-year program that I've been accepted to is the MS-Physiology (also applied to the Biochemistry and Molecular Biology program, and waiting to hear back). Pending that I make A's, don't you think the Tulane program would open more doors than the LMU program?

 

[Wjldenver]

Honestly I think my best chance is DO, but does that mean I should go to a DO SMP? Or should I go to the best SMP I can get into?

My stats aren't competitive for MD schools: graduated in 2014 with cGPA 2.85, sGPA 3.0 (both w/ upward trends and essentialy all A's during senior year), MCAT 500, 300+ hours volunteering, 2.5 years as an ER scribe, and 1.5 of cardiology/pulmonology research at Vanderbilt (1 first author publication, 2 co-author publications, a dozen presentations at international conferences).

Go to LMU. You will have a much higher probability of receiving good grades in that program. Lower grades at Tulane may lead to no DO school acceptances.


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[DexterMorganSK]

Honestly I think my best chance is DO, but does that mean I should go to a DO SMP? Or should I go to the best SMP I can get into?

My stats aren't competitive for MD schools: graduated in 2014 with cGPA 2.85, sGPA 3.0 (both w/ upward trends and essentialy all A's during senior year), MCAT 500, 300+ hours volunteering, 2.5 years as an ER scribe, and 1.5 of cardiology/pulmonology research at Vanderbilt (1 first author publication, 2 co-author publications, a dozen presentations at international conferences).

I would also second LMU. That 500 is low for an MD, regardless of the SMP gpa. I would email Tulane and ask if you would have to retake the mcat or not if you make about 3.5+ gpa.


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[hd316]

I would also second LMU. That 500 is low for an MD, regardless of the SMP gpa. I would email Tulane and ask if you would have to retake the mcat or not if you make about 3.5+ gpa.


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After talking to the dean of admission at Tulane she advised applying to medical school next cycle, after completing the SMP. She also said to consider retaking the MCAT.

Honestly, I want to go to Tulane. Also, won't my chances of getting into DO school be just as good, if not better, after an SMP at an MD school?


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[Blunt Dissection]

After talking to the dean of admission at Tulane she advised applying to medical school next cycle, after completing the SMP. She also said to consider retaking the MCAT.

Honestly, I want to go to Tulane. Also, won't my chances of getting into DO school be just as good, if not better, after an SMP at an MD school?


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Yes, theoretically if you do fantastic at Tulane's SMP, you'll look fine for DO schools as well. You have to be the judge of how well do you think you'll do during the program. The big benefit as an LMU master student is if you kill Anatomy and Neuroanatomy, you will not have to take those again during the school year when you matriculate. This is a HUGE advantage over your classmates because neuroanatomy begins a week after pharmacology and pharmacology is not only difficult, it's high yield for boards. You would essentially have 5 weeks where you are focusing all of your efforts on learning the pharm so you could keep it in long term memory for later. I don't know if Tulane's program offers something similar with the classes you'll take there, but that's my 2 cents.