Pre-Dent: Loan Question

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Hockey_Ortho

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I saw something similar on Reddit and wanted to share it here because it piqued my curiosity about the community's thoughts.

For those currently attending or planning to attend NYU, USC, or other expensive programs:

1) What is your estimated loan amount, and at what interest rate?

2) What is your estimated income when you graduate?

3) What percent of your income will be going towards paying for the loans, and for what duration?
 
Mr.Smile12 said:
Have you asked the school-specific threads? Define "other expensive programs" since you might as well put in all private schools.

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I asked something similar to this in the USC forum.
JacquesVallee said:
Anybody here interviewing at USC please let us know what financial aid says at your interview since the government can only give out 200k in loans now which will only cover one year at USC.
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I genuinely am curious what they will tell interviewees. Hopefully once interviews start we'll have some answers.
 
Hockey_Ortho said:
I saw something similar on Reddit and wanted to share it here because it piqued my curiosity about the community's thoughts.

For those currently attending or planning to attend NYU, USC, or other expensive programs:

1) What is your estimated loan amount, and at what interest rate?

2) What is your estimated income when you graduate?

3) What percent of your income will be going towards paying for the loans, and for what duration?
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Big Hoss
 
JacquesVallee said:
I hope every pre dent reading this reads this reddit post about the reality of paying for dental school with private loans.
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I think we here do a good job warning people to slow down and learn about loans, but most people are too focused on getting in first and paying later. But geez...
 
JacquesVallee said:
I hope every pre dent reading this reads this reddit post about the reality of paying for dental school with private loans.
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There is absolutely no way we don’t see several dental schools close as a result from the changes in federal student loans. It won’t take long for aspiring dentists to realize what a crap deal they’re getting. Time to pick a new career! The applicant pool is going to completely dry up, and then what…?

Big Hoss
 
Big Time Hoosier said:
There is absolutely no way we don’t see several dental schools close as a result from the changes in federal student loans. It won’t take long for aspiring dentists to realize what a crap deal they’re getting. Time to pick a new career! The applicant pool is going to completely dry up, and then what…?

Big Hoss
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This is the best thing that could happen to this profession. The costs and saturation are getting out of hand.
 
All of the schools are beyond expensive at this point, this isn’t to advocate just going. I’m just a few years, even the program that I went to, which had tuition+fees = 70k, is now 110k. The program was good, but if someone isn’t a business focused and personable individual who is going to own within a couple of years out of school, it would NEVER be worth that money.
 
To any predents reading this,

There is absolutely no way I’d go into dentistry if it would leave me $300,000+ in debt! That is becoming harder and harder to do. So, it may very well be time for you to consider another career. If you’re just thinking you’ll get into dental school and then figure out how to pay for it later, you’ll get what you deserve…

Sincerely,

Big Hoss
President and CEO
The Reality Check Institute of America
 
JacquesVallee said:
I left with 200k which was brutal paying back. I know people personally with 250k of dental school debt that have to rely on IBR. I would NEVER recommend anything greater than 200k, especially with the cutoff of federal loans.
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I am genuinely curious, but why don't more people live like a medical resident after graduation (3-4 years), pay as much down as possible, and then refinance the rest? Or if you have to take out private loans anyway, you can just refinance right after graduation. This seems somewhat doable if a bit tight after running the numbers, even with a 300-400k balance. 600-800k not as much, but that's a different story.
 
gregor5 said:
I am genuinely curious, but why don't more people live like a medical resident after graduation (3-4 years), pay as much down as possible, and then refinance the rest? Or if you have to take out private loans anyway, you can just refinance right after graduation. This seems somewhat doable if a bit tight after running the numbers, even with a 300-400k balance. 600-800k not as much, but that's a different story.
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It's really not doable without IBR. I moved to the middle of nowhere to increase my income and lower my cost of living. It was still incredibly tough and I only had about 200k. Let's say you make 130k starting (that's generous), after taxes, that's about 90k. Subtract 25k for frugal living expenses (again, generous) and now you're at 65k to put towards your 400k of loans. But wait, assuming 8% interest (your private loans will be 12%+ btw), you will accrue 32k in interest and can only knock the principle down by 33k. That hardly scratches it. Are you really going to live completely broke for a decade or two? This isn't just 3-4 years.

I'm just giving an example of living frugally and how hard it is to pay off these loans. It is physically painful to have your entire paycheck go towards your loans and hardly make a dent in them. PLEASE do not take out private loans to cover over 200k. At least federal loans allow IBR.
 
JacquesVallee said:
It's really not doable without IBR. I moved to the middle of nowhere to increase my income and lower my cost of living. It was still incredibly tough and I only had about 200k. Let's say you make 130k starting (that's generous), after taxes, that's about 90k. Subtract 25k for frugal living expenses (again, generous) and now you're at 65k to put towards your 400k of loans. But wait, assuming 8% interest (your private loans will be 12%+ btw), you will accrue 32k in interest and can only knock the principle down by 33k. That hardly scratches it. Are you really going to live completely broke for a decade or two? This isn't just 3-4 years.

I'm just giving an example of living frugally and how hard it is to pay off these loans. It is physically painful to have your entire paycheck go towards your loans and hardly make a dent in them. PLEASE do not take out private loans to cover over 200k. At least federal loans allow IBR.
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What about refinancing? It cuts your monthly payments in half from my calculations.
 
gregor5 said:
What about refinancing? It cuts your monthly payments in half from my calculations.
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No way. You're looking at *maybe* refinancing that 12-13% loan down to 8-9% at best. 400k of dental school debt with a 130k income is a very high risk loan balance. Lenders know if something goes wrong, you can't pay. Refinancers like SoFi want 700+ credit scores and a low debt to income ratio, the latter of which you certainly won't have. You'd likely need a cosigner.

Who told you refinancing in this position was feasible? It really isn't.
 
JacquesVallee said:
No way. You're looking at *maybe* refinancing that 12-13% loan down to 8-9% at best. 400k of dental school debt with a 130k income is a very high risk loan balance. Lenders know if something goes wrong, you can't pay. Refinancers like SoFi want 700+ credit scores and a low debt to income ratio, the latter of which you certainly won't have. You'd likely need a cosigner.

Who told you refinancing in this position was feasible? It really isn't.
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At least 4 or 5 dentists in my area that I’ve talked to refinanced 300k or so down to 4%. One actually still gets letters to refinance to lower than that but already paid off her loans. All of the links on white coat investor show 9% being the absolute high end for refinance rates.

I have personally never heard of a dentist needing a co signer to refinance dental school debt. To the best of my knowledge, a 3:1 D:I ratio is considered favorable for refinancing and even loan approval, and isn’t considered “very high risk,” especially considering that dentists don’t usually make 130k in perpetuity.
 
gregor5 said:
At least 4 or 5 dentists in my area that I’ve talked to refinanced 300k or so down to 4%. One actually still gets letters to refinance to lower than that but already paid off her loans. All of the links on white coat investor show 9% being the absolute high end for refinance rates.

I have personally never heard of a dentist needing a co signer to refinance dental school debt. To the best of my knowledge, a 3:1 D:I ratio is considered favorable for refinancing and even loan approval, and isn’t considered “very high risk,” especially considering that dentists don’t usually make 130k in perpetuity.
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It’s your future. You roll the dice.

Big Hoss
 
gregor5 said:
At least 4 or 5 dentists in my area that I’ve talked to refinanced 300k or so down to 4%. One actually still gets letters to refinance to lower than that but already paid off her loans. All of the links on white coat investor show 9% being the absolute high end for refinance rates.

I have personally never heard of a dentist needing a co signer to refinance dental school debt. To the best of my knowledge, a 3:1 D:I ratio is considered favorable for refinancing and even loan approval, and isn’t considered “very high risk,” especially considering that dentists don’t usually make 130k in perpetuity.
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All you did was list anecdotes from people who graduated years and years before you even started, in a much better dental market with much lower interest rates, in ultimately much different circumstances. I am telling you, banking on refinancing is a major risk, especially given the new loan restructuring. It is NOT guaranteed at all. There's no IBR fallback and refinancers are under no obligation to take your service. It's your life. We are trying to warn you.

I just ran some numbers. Let's say, theoretically, you leave with 370k- about the cost of your average states school- and are lucky enough to refinance to 5%. If you want to pay it off in 15 years, you have to pay 3k a month... yikes. Do you know how debilitating that is? You probably don't since you haven't even had a paycheck yet after doing backbreaking dental work, but let me tell you that leaves very little money leftover per month. That's financial ruin for 15 years.

It sounds like you've convinced yourself to stick with dentistry. As I said, you have been warned. Good luck.
 
gregor5 said:
I am genuinely curious, but why don't more people live like a medical resident after graduation (3-4 years), pay as much down as possible, and then refinance the rest? Or if you have to take out private loans anyway, you can just refinance right after graduation. This seems somewhat doable if a bit tight after running the numbers, even with a 300-400k balance. 600-800k not as much, but that's a different story.
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Easy answer, there aren’t as many places of employment that have enough patient flow along with good reimbursement to give people enough money to pay the loans. Lots of people also leave school with bare minimum skills, this does not help when most places of employment expect you to be performing advanced procedures - the owners already have an established patient base and then advertise to the 50% of people that strictly rely on emergency care - you better be good at EXT/RCT/Implant placement - which majority of new grads will be woefully unprepared to do. I have friends and have met plenty of very nice docs that have spent years after graduating bumping from office to office because there just isn’t money to be made, this is not uncommon AT ALL, just not commonly talked about. Not to mention the amount of offices that are advertised as functioning practices, but are actually just vanilla shells with NO PATIENTS.
 
JacquesVallee said:
If you want to pay it off in 15 years, you have to pay 3k a month... yikes.
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Predents, let me add some perspective. That $3,000/month is coming from after tax money. So, you’ll actually need to earn closer to $4,000/month to cover that. Imagine having to earn almost $45,000/year just to cover your student loans! That’s with a loan balance of $370,000 at 5% and taking a decade and a half to pay it off. Many of you will owe much, much more than that and have a higher interest rate. Good luck owning a home and saving for retirement!

Big Hoss
 
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I graduated in 2022 $250k in debt. I paid off all $250k just over a year later, but I worked M-F and two Saturdays a month and lived with my parents during that year which helped significantly. Knowing what I know now I’d probably still think it was worth it to go to dental school for $500k, but I’m not the usual dentist. I had good mentorship and picked things up quickly to bring my income to over $400k as an associate relatively quickly. That most likely won’t be you. At some point, even if you would be a successful dentist, the missed income from having a good job after undergrad at the age of 22 is just too much to pass up.

If you can limit your debt, pay it off quickly, and build up investments quickly then dentistry can be great like it has been for me. But at $700k in tuition you just can’t do it.
 
Pablo Sanchez said:
I graduated in 2022 $250k in debt. I paid off all $250k just over a year later, but I worked M-F and two Saturdays a month and lived with my parents during that year which helped significantly. Knowing what I know now I’d probably still think it was worth it to go to dental school for $500k, but I’m not the usual dentist. I had good mentorship and picked things up quickly to bring my income to over $400k as an associate relatively quickly. That most likely won’t be you. At some point, even if you would be a successful dentist, the missed income from having a good job after undergrad at the age of 22 is just too much to pass up.

If you can limit your debt, pay it off quickly, and build up investments quickly then dentistry can be great like it has been for me. But at $700k in tuition you just can’t do it.
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How were able hold your debt to $250k? What school did you attend? Did you have family financial resources? Where are you practicing? What % of recent grads do think are making $400k? Less 10%, 5%, maybe less than 1%?
 
SigmaFS said:
How were able hold your debt to $250k? What school did you attend? Did you have family financial resources? Where are you practicing? What % of recent grads do think are making $400k? Less 10%, 5%, maybe less than 1%?
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I went to Penn. I lived at home and commuted 3 hours per day during dental school. I also had a little bit of a scholarship at Penn. No family financial resources other than the fact that I lived rent free during dental school and didn’t pay for groceries.

Practicing 25 minutes outside of a major Northeast city. Tough to say what percent of recent grads are making that much. Maybe 2-5%? I’m just guessing. I do know of other associates making that much so I’m not THAT much of a unicorn, but it’s definitely the minority. It takes a combination of factors. You need to have the personality to do it. You need to be able to communicate treatment needs well. You need to work efficiently. You need to be confident in and do good work. You need to be in an office that has the staff to support you. You need some sort of mentorship. You need to be in an office with the patients to support you. You can’t be afraid. Far too many dentists are afraid to do anything beyond what they did in dental school.
 
Pablo Sanchez said:
Tough to say what percent of recent grads are making that much. Maybe 2-5%?
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Closer to 0.01%-0.1% for recent grads. Any recent grad producing enough to take home 400k I am questioning the quality of their work. New grads should be methodically increasing their skillset and slowly take on more challenging cases. They shouldn't be cranking out molar endos and All-on-X.
 
Also need the right fee schedule. Plenty of insurances contracting very low fees, ie, $90 fillings, $600 crowns, $300 endos, etc. Even if you work like a dog, and have the patient flow, unless you work 6 days a week you won’t be coming close to 400k as an associate, maybe 250k-300k tops
 
Pablo Sanchez said:
I’m not THAT much of a unicorn
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If not a unicorn, you're an outlier to an outlier. UPenn is expensive. What - $400K to $450K during your time? And you managed to get out of there with $250K with no family resources?
 
SigmaFS said:
If not a unicorn, you're an outlier to an outlier. UPenn is expensive. What - $400K to $450K during your time? And you managed to get out of there with $250K with no family resources?
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Tuition at Penn was what, $75,000 back when I started? I had a scholarship and graduated undergrad 6 months early and worked and saved up money (nothing crazy, I think I was making $16/hour). I worked at Target over dental school breaks. I worked as a tutor a little bit during dental school and as a lecture recorder which was paid. I would take every opportunity I could get to either limit my debt or save up some money. Covid came in clutch regarding interest being put on hold. If I remember correctly even my first year working there was no interest accruing so I was able to attack my loans aggressively and pay them off without interest collecting on the back end. It took a little over a year, but under a year and a half. I live well under my means, but do not feel like I’m not enjoying life.

I did not make over $400,000 my first year out. The first 6 months were rough looking back. The first full year Jan 1-Dec 31 is really when I started to gain my confidence. But it didn’t take long. Only a couple of years. After just under 3 years I stopped working Saturdays and now work M-Th and a shorter day on Fridays. At this point I have investments kicking off a lot of money each year on top of my salary which will provide me flexibility later on in my career.

I truly don’t think that I am anything special. I just try to make good decisions. I tried to educate myself financially starting in college and took up an interest in personal finance which helped me to limit my debt and make smart choices.
 
JacquesVallee said:
Respectfully, then you lack self-awareness. You are an EXTREME outlier. 400k as an associate a couple years out is absolutely Michael Jordan level dentistry.
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I recognize that making over $400k as an associate is on the high end. What I mean by I don’t think I’m anything special is that I don’t think I’m some natural talent. I was never the best in pre-clinic lab. I didn’t grow up with a dad who was a dentist teaching me this stuff. I’m not placing AOX implants, etc. I just think I’m an average guy doing mostly bread and butter dentistry.
 
Pablo Sanchez said:
I recognize that making over $400k as an associate is on the high end.
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I’m an associate specialist and I’m not close to making that much. Granted, I work 4 days/week. I don’t think you realize how much of an outlier you are, especially if you’re just doing bread and butter dentistry as you say.

Big Hoss
 
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Big Time Hoosier said:
I’m associate specialist and I’m not close to making that much. Granted, I work 4 days/week. I don’t think you realize how much of an outlier you are, especially if you’re just doing bread and butter dentistry as you say.

Big Hoss
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I’ve always been a proponent of general dentistry. I think you can make just as much money without delaying your income for 2-6 years. That time matters, especially when considering the exponential growth of compound interest from investing.
 
Pablo Sanchez said:
first year working there was no interest accruing so I was able to attack my loans aggressively and pay them off without interest collecting on the back end.
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Props to what you have achieved, especially with the loans. I feel like most people stopped paying if they didn't have interest accruing. You have business acumen from what I have read in the past. You will be fine. That being said, I think most people will not commute 3 hours daily, take minimum loans, qualify for scholarships, work side gigs while a dental student, live with their parents in grad school and only pay groceries expenses (did your parents pay for your gas or other form of transportation), still continue living like a student to tackle loans, and make 400k+ doing bread and butter dentistry in a not so rural area. Being honest, that kind of money as an associate GD makes me think overtreatment. Are you married, have kids? All these things add up. I think that is why you are getting some push back. Your situation is extremely abnormal.
 
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SirBrotherJam said:
Props to what you have achieved, especially with the loans. I feel like most people stopped paying if they didn't have interest accruing. You have business acumen from what I have read in the past. You will be fine. That being said, I think most people will not commute 3 hours daily, take minimum loans, qualify for scholarships, work side gigs while a dental student, live with their parents in grad school and only pay groceries expenses (did your parents pay for your gas or other form of transportation), still continue living like a student to tackle loans, and make 400k+ doing bread and butter dentistry in a not so rural area. Being honest, that kind of money as an associate GD makes me think overtreatment. Are you married, have kids? All these things add up. I think that is why you are getting some push back. Your situation is extremely abnormal.
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We are all on the same page here. I think that it is crazy for people to be paying a ton for dental school while expecting to live a life of luxury along the way. My classmates thought I was crazy, and they’re not wrong. I was able to do what most people aren’t willing to do. That’s what made me successful. If these pre-dents think they’re going to take out $600k in loans, live in their luxury apartments, travel throughout dental school, graduate and work 3-4 days a week, they’ve got something else coming.

With working 6 days a week initially not only did I make more money from working more, but I accelerated my learning and increased my speed faster. Likewise, working 3-4 days a week gives you less experience and so it’s going to take you longer to develop your skill.

I didn’t pay for groceries during dental school, but I did pay for gas and my train ticket everyday.

I don’t think I overtreat, but that’s subjective. I try to practice ethical dentistry and just do what I can to do what is best for the patient.

I’m not married and don’t have kids, but marriage is in the not too distant future. I realize once I have kids expenses will rise. I’m trying to set myself up now so that I’m able to have flexibility then.

My point with all of this is that if you are smart and a hard worker, and take this stuff seriously, you can still have success.
 
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Tonight: a Live Web Event on 09/18/2025 at 7:00 PM (EDT). May require ADEA access to register.

Changes to Borrowing and Repayment: What Every Dental School Student and Graduate Should Know​

Recent federal legislation is changing the student loan landscape for health professions students, and understanding these changes is essential for future dental professionals. This timely and informative session will feature leading student loan debt management expert Paul Garrard, who will break down the latest updates and how they are likely to impact current dental students and recent graduates.

Through a clear and accessible interactive 60-minute webinar, including questions throughout, attendees will learn how to proactively prepare for the upcoming changes and make more informed decisions about how their student loan portfolio may impact their financial future. Whether preparing to enter repayment or still borrowing, this webinar will provide critical insight into what’s ahead and how to plan for success.

Learning Objectives
  • Describe the major changes impacting borrowing and repayment resulting from recent legislation and how they impact dental students.
  • Identify credible tools, resources and strategies to help them borrow responsibly and prepare for responsible repayment during and after dental school.
  • Evaluate how to adapt current or future financial plans in light of upcoming aid policy changes.
  • Assess how these changes affect current and future student loan borrowing and repayment options.
 
Mr.Smile12 said:
Learning Objectives
  • Describe the major changes impacting borrowing and repayment resulting from recent legislation and how they impact dental students.
  • Identify credible tools, resources and strategies to help them borrow responsibly and prepare for responsible repayment during and after dental school.
  • Evaluate how to adapt current or future financial plans in light of upcoming aid policy changes.
  • Assess how these changes affect current and future student loan borrowing and repayment options.
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I wish one of the learning objectives was assessment of whether or not dentistry is a good financial investment. Most pre dents should not be going to dental school for that reason.
 
JacquesVallee said:
I wish one of the learning objectives was assessment of whether or not dentistry is a good financial investment. Most pre dents should not be going to dental school for that reason.
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Considering the expertise and audience, they're not answering from a CPA's perspective. It should help the faculty and admins answer anticipated questions applicants and current dental students (and their own faculty and other admins) have. Also, we are still waiting for a lot of regulatory/rules information to guide further advice for those already in school.
 
Mr.Smile12 said:
Considering the expertise and audience, they're not answering from a CPA's perspective. It should help the faculty and admins answer anticipated questions applicants and current dental students (and their own faculty and other admins) have. Also, we are still waiting for a lot of regulatory/rules information to guide further advice for those already in school.
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Will be very interesting to see how this all plays out.
 
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