Locums rates

[caffeinegirl]

I've been contacted about a few locums opportunities in the Bay area of California.
Position 1:
Locums coverage in Napa, CA for 6 hours a day - basic surg path, low volume, hours 8-2ish a day, possible transition to full-time work - $700/day for 6 hours of work
Position 2:
Locums coverage in Martinez, CA from 9-5pm for select weeks through the summer, dermpath+surg path+cyto - 120-150/hour. This is likely for the county hospital.

Feel free to PM me for more info and I can send you the recruiter information.

I'm just surprised (as I always am) at the rates here, compared to locums rates in other specialties. The Bay area is a place with high cost of living. I saw a locums job for a radiologist in Wisconsin for 18,000/week!

Are the locums rates similar to your neck of the woods?

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[KeratinPearls]

I've been contacted about a few locums opportunities in the Bay area of California.
Position 1:
Locums coverage in Napa, CA for 6 hours a day - basic surg path, low volume, hours 8-2ish a day, possible transition to full-time work - $700/day for 6 hours of work
Position 2:
Locums coverage in Martinez, CA from 9-5pm for select weeks through the summer, dermpath+surg path+cyto - 120-150/hour. This is likely for the county hospital.

Feel free to PM me for more info and I can send you the recruiter information.

I'm just surprised (as I always am) at the rates here, compared to locums rates in other specialties. The Bay area is a place with high cost of living. I saw a locums job for a radiologist in Wisconsin for 18,000/week!

Are the locums rates similar to your neck of the woods?

You’re surprised? I’m sure not.

Again a pathologist oversupply rears it’s ugly head. High supply depresses everything for pathologists. Salary, vacation time, locums rates. Beating a dead horse here.

Why do you think Pathology has lost its appeal among US grads? $700 a day is a slap to the face. Employers are able to offer that much because the market allows it.

An email I got from an Iowa locums: Iowa out of all places (no offense)

“The $495 is how much it costs to obtain an IA license.


The rate is $1100 per day.

Thank you,

XXX”

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

LOL. That job in Napa is very likely with LADoc. Ask him why he is paying so low. 700 a day is insulting.

 

[caffeinegirl]

You’re surprised? I’m sure not.

Yeah I'm always surprised or rather dejected by the economics of pathology - we're priced as a commodity rather than for our professional expertise. Just a warm body crunching out reports from an economic standpoint.

 

[KeratinPearls]

Yeah I'm always surprised or rather dejected by the economics of pathology - we're priced as a commodity rather than for our professional expertise. Just a warm body crunching out reports from an economic standpoint.

Thanks for sharing the info. You’re one of the SDN veterans as well and it’s good to hear the voices of others who have been in Pathology.

Any idea how much other fields pay for locums? I’m thinking over 2000 a day? Even primary care pays more than $700. It’s really ridiculous.

 

[caffeinegirl]

Primary care in the underserved populations in my area is 100-140/hour. So it is a similar rate. I do think the comparison should be with a diagnostic specialty such as radiology, however. I've seen locums job in my area for pathologists at 90/hour as well - so that Napa job isn't out of the spectrum. I still feel disillusioned. But the types of jobs are also in question - lots of these are just a warm body to sign out 20 cases a day and stay in the hospital during operating hours for contract purposes. This is highly inefficient - couldn't there be some workaround to do these remotely? I would spend more time in my car driving to these places than actually spending it looking at cases. The rest of the time I'd be twiddling my thumbs.

 

[Deucedano]

I do wonder how much of it is oversupply vs greedy pathologists who want to pay someone the lowest wage because they can. Obviously it would be harder to do so if there were less pathologists, but I cant help but wonder how much of this we did to ourselves. It would be interesting to see how many of these locums jobs are private practices, hospital owned or VC owned. I dont know about any of you, but just getting a warm body to sign out cases could be disastrous for the reputation of a private group if there is a major mistake.

 

[Zarniwoop]

I do wonder how much of it is oversupply vs greedy pathologists who want to pay someone the lowest wage because they can. Obviously it would be harder to do so if there were less pathologists, but I cant help but wonder how much of this we did to ourselves. It would be interesting to see how many of these locums jobs are private practices, hospital owned or VC owned. I dont know about any of you, but just getting a warm body to sign out cases could be disastrous for the reputation of a private group if there is a major mistake.

Combo, but option #2 is all too real. Generally, if you get a locum job for a hospital system, the rates are fairer. The lowest rates are for the private groups.

 

[KeratinPearls]

I do wonder how much of it is oversupply vs greedy pathologists who want to pay someone the lowest wage because they can. Obviously it would be harder to do so if there were less pathologists, but I cant help but wonder how much of this we did to ourselves. It would be interesting to see how many of these locums jobs are private practices, hospital owned or VC owned. I dont know about any of you, but just getting a warm body to sign out cases could be disastrous for the reputation of a private group if there is a major mistake.

Even Greedy pathologists can only go so low in price to pay someone. There are greedy people in every aspect of life. Every field. The market determines the price you can pay. If no ones willing to accept that job then they will bump up the pay until someone budges.

Same goes with group practices. 5 years until partnership? Is this the norm in other fields? Do you really need 5 years to determine if someone would make a good partner? It happens in Pathology because groups are able to. More money for the partners!!!!

Do you see a radiologist locums getting paid 1100$ a day? I don’t know. Someone enlighten me as to how much radiologists get paid on average for locums.

 

[MotherofDragonflies]

Do these same criticisms a.pply to overseas/non-US Locums jobs? Or is this a US-specific issue?

 

[fecalith]

Thanks for sharing the info. You’re one of the SDN veterans as well and it’s good to hear the voices of others who have been in Pathology.

Any idea how much other fields pay for locums? I’m thinking over 2000 a day? Even primary care pays more than $700. It’s really ridiculous.

Most of the forensics locum gigs pay 2K a day for 8-5. 3 days a week max. No legal cases.

 

[caffeinegirl]

Looking around other forums on SDN, it looks like rads is about 250/hour

Locums?

So, why are locum radiology rates so bad compared to just straight up private practice employment. 2400 a day is the higher end of the number that I've seen researching locum stuff. In other specialties, working locums say in ER or even neurology etc. is much more lucrative... Or are there...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Rad onc has lower rate, with the low rate of $1500/day (and it also has the same oversupply woes as pathology)

Radiation oncology now offered lowest locum rates in "radiology"?

will try to copy the entire email (from a large national locums staffing firm) below. Daily pay rates Low range locums for rad onc, diagnostic/general, breast imaging, neurointerventional, interventional: $1500 vs $1700 vs $1800 vs $2000 vs $2200 (r-sq: 0.98, p=0.0004) High range locums for rad...

forums.studentdoctor.net

STILL not even close to pathology. I'm not going to compare to primary care and internists, and am only comparing to diagnostic fields.

Just some other red flags about private practice groups (which I think exist in other fields too)
- 5 years to partner
- Increased vacation time during that time (ie. the junior people have less vacation than the senior people), which leads to inadequate staffing if all members are partners, and creates incentives to always have junior people around
- crazy non-compete clauses
- no-cause termination

I do think the economics of pathology are in part due to oversupply, also centralization of laboratories and economies of scale, and past history of over-charging for services (I know of a medical center which used to up-charge testing by 700%). Lots of factors here, but the result is the same - down-valuing of services/reimbursement and less jobs available down the line.

 

[HeyDalaron]

Looking around other forums on SDN, it looks like rads is about 250/hour

Locums?

So, why are locum radiology rates so bad compared to just straight up private practice employment. 2400 a day is the higher end of the number that I've seen researching locum stuff. In other specialties, working locums say in ER or even neurology etc. is much more lucrative... Or are there...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Rad onc has lower rate, with the low rate of $1500/day (and it also has the same oversupply woes as pathology)

Radiation oncology now offered lowest locum rates in "radiology"?

will try to copy the entire email (from a large national locums staffing firm) below. Daily pay rates Low range locums for rad onc, diagnostic/general, breast imaging, neurointerventional, interventional: $1500 vs $1700 vs $1800 vs $2000 vs $2200 (r-sq: 0.98, p=0.0004) High range locums for rad...

forums.studentdoctor.net

STILL not even close to pathology. I'm not going to compare to primary care and internists, and am only comparing to diagnostic fields.

Just some other red flags about private practice groups (which I think exist in other fields too)
- 5 years to partner
- Increased vacation time during that time (ie. the junior people have less vacation than the senior people), which leads to inadequate staffing if all members are partners, and creates incentives to always have junior people around
- crazy non-compete clauses
- no-cause termination

I do think the economics of pathology are in part due to oversupply, also centralization of laboratories and economies of scale, and past history of over-charging for services (I know of a medical center which used to up-charge testing by 700%). Lots of factors here, but the result is the same - down-valuing of services/reimbursement and less jobs available down the line.

I appreciate how you are comparing pathology to other diagnostic fields and not to primary care, as if one were to do that it would most certainly result in an inaccurate undervaluation of our expertise.

How can pathologists become involved in the ACGME so that only appropriate institutions are allowed to have training programs?

 

[deleted314957]

Most of the forensics locum gigs pay 2K a day for 8-5. 3 days a week max. No legal cases.

I believe it is impossible to do any significant amount of forensics and have no legal cases, even on a part time schedule. Been there, done that.

 

[AZpath]

There are tons of indicators that pathology has an economic problem fueled in large part by too many residency spots.
Low wages and commodity pricing is the ultimate result. A lot of older pathologist on this board have been say this for years.
CAP has heard about the comments posted here. There response is denial. They applaud poor data and go on pretending.

It now the younger generation turn to try and break through the iron curtain made by CAP and the academic medical directors.
It would take loud big faction of concerned pathologist to have influence. Good luck.

 

[dr4n6]

@mikesheree: I think what was implied was that of the locums forensics positions currently looking for help is that they are looking for individuals to help out with the straightforward naturals. They are not going to have a locums person handle the homicides. I do both SP/FP and can confirm that the daily rate for short term FP locums is typically $1000-$1500/day with an average load of at least 4-5 cases/day in a busier office.

 

[KeratinPearls]

Anyone here still think we have a strong job market or a shortage of pathologists? Please speak up. We’ll be nice.

 

[dr4n6]

Anyone here still think we have a strong job market or a shortage of pathologists? Please speak up. We’ll be nice.

The job market is very strong in certain subspecialties, as I have been doing forensics for > 25 years and have never seen a more acute need for FPs.

 

[KeratinPearls]

The job market is very strong in certain subspecialties, as I have been doing forensics for > 25 years and have never seen a more acute need for FPs.

Agree, forensics job market is good. Dermpath as well (heard it was not as great as before, correct me if I’m wrong). I’m talking about the market for general private practice pathologists. I do think academics is a good market as well since academics are well connected and you can land your job that way.

 

[caffeinegirl]

The dermpath job market has been on the decline for years - not the heyday it used to be 10+ years ago. Still waiting on that wave of retirements...! Lots of in-office jobs where you're owned by the dermatologist in private practice.

 

[KeratinPearls]

The dermpath job market has been on the decline for years - not the heyday it used to be 10+ years ago. Still waiting on that wave of retirements...! Lots of in-office jobs where you're owned by the dermatologist in private practice.

Great thanks for the info.

 

[Zarniwoop]

I think academics is the best route, besides the VA. Academics gives you the best chance to be in "desirable" city, and develop reputation/skills that allow you to make lateral or upward moves elsewhere down the line.

Forensics IMO is its own world so I don't think the experiences there are relevant to other pathologists. I think most other subspecialties can be lumped together, more or less.

 

[ScubaV]

There are tons of indicators that pathology has an economic problem fueled in large part by too many residency spots.
Low wages and commodity pricing is the ultimate result. A lot of older pathologist on this board have been say this for years.
CAP has heard about the comments posted here. There response is denial. They applaud poor data and go on pretending.

It now the younger generation turn to try and break through the iron curtain made by CAP and the academic medical directors.
It would take loud big faction of concerned pathologist to have influence. Good luck.

I think it would require the LADoc's of the pathology world to infiltrate CAP and ABP and work from the inside: people who are 10-20 years into their career and not inclined to do the academic bowing and scraping for promotion. The problem is CAP has mostly academics because that's a nice CV item. Private practice people probably just want to churn slides for cash while they still can. And new attendings who have the most to gain also have the least clout and are just trying to get settled in their careers.

 

[Smoothbrain]

The job market is very strong in certain subspecialties, as I have been doing forensics for > 25 years and have never seen a more acute need for FPs.

Dear dr4n6
Where am I able to see the Forensic Pathology job listings? Only Path Outlines I was only able to find 6 jobs. Was thinking about doing a forensics fellowship. Thanks
Have a nice easter

 

[HmanPath]

Dear dr4n6
Where am I able to see the Forensic Pathology job listings? Only Path Outlines I was only able to find 6 jobs. Was thinking about doing a forensics fellowship. Thanks
Have a nice easter

Employment Opportunities

Employment Opportunities

www.thename.org

https://webdata.aafs.org/public/jobs/postings.aspx

Also, FP fellowships are moving to a match in 2024.

 

[Smoothbrain]

Employment Opportunities

Employment Opportunities

www.thename.org

https://webdata.aafs.org/public/jobs/postings.aspx

Also, FP fellowships are moving to a match in 2024.

So are people matching into 2024 Forensics fellowships already?

 

[deleted314957]

@mikesheree: I think what was implied was that of the locums forensics positions currently looking for help is that they are looking for individuals to help out with the straightforward naturals. They are not going to have a locums person handle the homicides. I do both SP/FP and can confirm that the daily rate for short term FP locums is typically $1000-$1500/day with an average load of at least 4-5 cases/day in a busier office.

That’s not so bad if one or two are just inspections and you have a decent diener and facility.

 

[HmanPath]

So are people matching into 2024 Forensics fellowships already?

The match will take place March 2024, like the residency match as far as I know. I am sure programs are filling or have filled spots up until then.

 

[deleted314957]

There are, or used to be,some fantastic geographic places for forensics. Miami and Arizona come off the top of my head. Good physical facilities and not much political drama( due diligence. I have been out of the game).

 

[Dave CX]

LOL. That job in Napa is very likely with LADoc. Ask him why he is paying so low. 700 a day is insulting.

This would be disappointing. The cool guy who disses the decline of the profession being a cheapskate. Say it is not so.

 

[LADoc00]

LOL. That job in Napa is very likely with LADoc. Ask him why he is paying so low. 700 a day is insulting.

This is patently false. I am paying well over that.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

 

[LADoc00]

Even Greedy pathologists can only go so low in price to pay someone. There are greedy people in every aspect of life. Every field. The market determines the price you can pay. If no ones willing to accept that job then they will bump up the pay until someone budges.

Same goes with group practices. 5 years until partnership? Is this the norm in other fields? Do you really need 5 years to determine if someone would make a good partner? It happens in Pathology because groups are able to. More money for the partners!!!!

Do you see a radiologist locums getting paid 1100$ a day? I don’t know. Someone enlighten me as to how much radiologists get paid on average for locums

This would be disappointing. The cool guy who disses the decline of the profession being a cheapskate. Say it is not so.

I have not, nor will I ever, maliciously underpay a fellow pathologist.

Thanks and Semper Fidelis.

 

[Allegri]

Nice work. Would love to see the legal action proceed, sheesh even staffing firms are profiting bigly off the pathologist oversupply?

 

[LADoc00]

Nice work. Would love to see the legal action proceed, sheesh even staffing firms are profiting bigly off the pathologist oversupply?

I spent a good deal of time on the phone with them today.

We came to a mutual arrangement after they explained their costs which include:
$200+ a day for short term malpractice
Office support, Admin and overhead
Sales commission

Essentially staffing firms are really geared towards very short term quick hole plugging and do not make sense for pathologists with long time horizons.

If you are interested in vacationing somewhere and working a different practice it might make sense, otherwise a straight headhunter arrangement seems more rational (employer pays a flat fee for a successful placement).

 

[k_sheep]

Eeesh. Locums in australia get $1500-2000 AUD per day. 700 is an insult. Registrars get paid more.