LOIntent Ethical question

[jdogs2]

So I'm on the WL at 4 top 15 schools (which is ass). Would it be unethical to send all 4 a letter of intent? It's rather unlikely I'd get in off the WL at more than 1, right?

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[Nontrad_FL_LGBT]

Yeah, that is obviously unethical. You're lying.

 

[RedFrog]

Is it acceptable if withdrawing the rest 3 immediately when received the first A from any one of them?

 

[Rachapkis]

It's unethical but not unheard of. That's why ad coms view LOIs with a jaundiced eye.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

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[GoSpursGo]

It is obviously unethical. It is relatively unlikely you would get caught, but it would be bad if you were, and it is also unlikely to help you.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

So I'm on the WL at 4 top 15 schools (which is ass). Would it be unethical to send all 4 a letter of intent? It's rather unlikely I'd get in off the WL at more than 1, right?

Just face it. You won't be attending all four schools at the same time. You can't handle that much debt.

I don't know why you are fishing for advice that tells you "go ahead and send those letters, there's no consequence to it!" Ten years from now, no school is going to rescind your medical degree on discovery that you sent multiple letters of intent. If your mindset is that this is how people play the game, okay... I hear that over 70% of high school seniors admit to have cheated on some exam or paper, and I'm sure the numbers are similar in undergraduate.

I sent you the article to give you the impression that your fate on the waitlists is likely sealed, and you just have to TRUST THE PROCESS.

The value of people trusting you at your word about integrity, not persuasion. Send ONE letter that reflects your character, not your desperation. You ultimately have to make a choice if all four send you offers, so why not make your choice sooner than later? That's what an LOI should do... the self-reflection benefits you more than it does the school. And good self-reflections will impress faculty, especially since you'll be doing more of them as a student. But I assure you, it won't move your application up the waitlist. (Correlation is not causation.)

 

[LizzyM]

Letters of Intent are treated as the bu11sh1t they generally are. Send four letters of interest. They aren't a lie. Just be sure to change the name of the school & it's location as you copy and paste each one. (You know it has happened.)

 

[gyngyn]

So I'm on the WL at 4 top 15 schools (which is ass). Would it be unethical to send all 4 a letter of intent? It's rather unlikely I'd get in off the WL at more than 1, right?

You can see why we don't believe you.

 

[jdogs2]

good points, fair enough! I was coming at this with the reasoning that if I got in at any of the 4, that would definitely be my #1 school and the one I would attend. But I see that it's still unethical when telling multiple schools that, so I'll choose 1. Thanks!

 

[ByThe+C]

You can see why we don't believe you.

I'm currently writing a letter of intent to my #1 after being placed on the waitlist. I have told this school that they are my number 1 multiple times throughout the cycle in my updates and in my interview. Would my LOI hold more weight given the previous communications?

It's frustrating for me to believe that adcoms really don't trust applicants who tell them that they will commit if accepted.

 

[gyngyn]

It's frustrating for me to believe that adcoms really don't trust applicants who tell them that they will commit if accepted.

I can tell you what happens at my school and what I have learned from my colleagues at other institutions.
We can't afford to believe LO"I"s. We have seen all too often that they are sent in desperation to several places.

How many times would you need to receive false declarations of love before realizing that this type of love is fleeting?

 

[2023applicantxd]

I can tell you what happens at my school and what I have learned from my colleagues at other institutions.
We can't afford to believe LO"I"s. We have seen all too often that they are sent in desperation to several places.

How many times would you need to receive false declarations of love before realizing that this type of love is fleeting?

How often is it that you see one that's actually convincing?

 

[2023applicantxd]

So I'm on the WL at 4 top 15 schools (which is ass). Would it be unethical to send all 4 a letter of intent? It's rather unlikely I'd get in off the WL at more than 1, right?

If you do move the needle somehow with this, think about the people who act ethically and are getting ****ed over by you

 

[LizzyM]

Let's put it this way. You pass notes to Frank, Albert, Robert and Johns that you will go to the prom with each of them if they ask you. Frank is about to ask you in the cafeteria at lunch time but Albert, who just came into a bunch of money, stops you in the hall after first period and asks you (after all, you said you'd go with him if he asked). What's Frank going to think when you turn him down two hours later when you said you'd go with him?

How can a place be your #1 and then you withdraw your application?? and if that happens after they call you with an offer because you just got off the phone with your other #1 who made an offer?

It gets messier than an episode of the Bachelorette.

 

[gyngyn]

How often is it that you see one that's actually convincing?

I'm no fool.

 

[2023applicantxd]

I'm no fool.

Completely hypothetical scenario
What if a student has a wife and children in, for example, pennsylvania but gets into no pennsylvania schools but is WL at like Penn or Pitt or something but has an acceptance at UCLA or somewhere really far like that and were to write his letter of intent to the pennsylvania schools - but also were to write a letter that suggests he'd be a good fit at the school. Do you think then in that case you'd give the letter any thought or still probably not

 

[gyngyn]

Completely hypothetical scenario
What if a student has a wife and children in, for example, pennsylvania but gets into no pennsylvania schools but is WL at like Penn or Pitt or something but has an acceptance at UCLA or somewhere really far like that and were to write his letter of intent to the pennsylvania schools - but also were to write a letter that suggests he'd be a good fit at the school. Do you think then in that case you'd give the letter any thought or still probably not

There are more variables to consider.
If someone is on the WL because the school has already accepted the number needed to fill, no number of letters (or reasons) will make a difference.

If there is an otherwise desirable candidate who has not yet CTE'd and the class has dropped to below the number needed to fill and there is reason to believe that they will come without taking the entire two weeks to think about it...maybe.

 

[2023applicantxd]

There are more variables to consider.
If someone is on the WL because the school has already accepted the number needed to fill, no number of letters (or reasons) will make a difference.

If there is an otherwise desirable candidate who has not yet CTE'd and the class has dropped to below the number needed to fill and there is reason to believe that they will come without taking the entire two weeks to think about it...maybe.

Interesting thank you for your perspective !

 

[LizzyM]

Completely hypothetical scenario
What if a student has a wife and children in, for example, pennsylvania but gets into no pennsylvania schools but is WL at like Penn or Pitt or something but has an acceptance at UCLA or somewhere really far like that and were to write his letter of intent to the pennsylvania schools - but also were to write a letter that suggests he'd be a good fit at the school. Do you think then in that case you'd give the letter any thought or still probably not

The school already knows where you live. And if you had dependents at the time you applied. So you aren't telling them anything they don't already know.

If a spot opens up that needs to be filled, the person living nearby might be the "go to".

 

[ByThe+C]

I can tell you what happens at my school and what I have learned from my colleagues at other institutions.
We can't afford to believe LO"I"s. We have seen all too often that they are sent in desperation to several places.

How many times would you need to receive false declarations of love before realizing that this type of love is fleeting?

Will it make a difference if I get my LOI signed with a notary while being recorded?

All jokes aside, I wonder if there's some kind of pattern with applicants who turn down schools after sending an LOI. I wish there was a secret phrase I could include in my letter to let them know I'm serious.

 

[gyngyn]

I wish there was a secret phrase I could include in my letter to let them know I'm serious.

That makes two of us.

 

[anon2]

About the only way a credible LOI exists is if AMCAS/etc. builds an admissions signal system, copied from NRMP. No words matter unless you are systematically prevented from spamming.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

About the only way a credible LOI exists is if AMCAS/etc. builds an admissions signal system, copied from NRMP. No words matter unless you are systematically prevented from spamming.

But.... our admissions office budget!!! We want those supplemental fees!

(That plus it would take a miraculous consensus from the Committee on Admissions to get that passed.)

 

[gyngyn]

But.... our admissions office budget!!! We want those supplemental fees!

I would happily forego secondary fees if it meant that we only got applications from students serious about our school.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I would happily forego secondary fees if it meant that we only got applications from students serious about our school.

Oh faculty...

Enrollment executives like to see that denominator rise (selectivity).

 

[GoSpursGo]

I'm currently writing a letter of intent to my #1 after being placed on the waitlist. I have told this school that they are my number 1 multiple times throughout the cycle in my updates and in my interview. Would my LOI hold more weight given the previous communications?

It's frustrating for me to believe that adcoms really don't trust applicants who tell them that they will commit if accepted.

If you have already told this school that they are your number 1 multiple times throughout the cycle, then why do you expect telling them this yet again is going to move the needle? I get it, everyone wants to feel like they did "everything possible" to get in... but it's mathematically impossible for everyone to get into their number 1 choice. If you've delivered this message multiple times before I honestly think you're running a risk for becoming a nuisance by continuing to pester them.

If you must send another update, I would do it closer to their CTE date, and have it be 2 sentences long literally stating that they are still your number 1 and that if you were accepted you would immediately accept their offer and withdraw from other schools.

 

[Hollow Knight]

LOL this has to be a troll post

 

[Goro]

I'm currently writing a letter of intent to my #1 after being placed on the waitlist. I have told this school that they are my number 1 multiple times throughout the cycle in my updates and in my interview. Would my LOI hold more weight given the previous communications?

It's frustrating for me to believe that adcoms really don't trust applicants who tell them that they will commit if accepted.

Admissions Deans here on SDN have mentioned they actually do data analysis to see if these things hold water, and they don't.

Believe it or not, applicants lie. After all if you hear some guy say to a hot girl at a bar, but I'll still respect you in the morning!, would you believe him?

 

[ByThe+C]

If you have already told this school that they are your number 1 multiple times throughout the cycle, then why do you expect telling them this yet again is going to move the needle? I get it, everyone wants to feel like they did "everything possible" to get in... but it's mathematically impossible for everyone to get into their number 1 choice. If you've delivered this message multiple times before I honestly think you're running a risk for becoming a nuisance by continuing to pester them.

If you must send another update, I would do it closer to their CTE date, and have it be 2 sentences long literally stating that they are still your number 1 and that if you were accepted you would immediately accept their offer and withdraw from other schools.

Their CTE deadline is June 15 so I'm sending it much earlier than that (around early April). By that point I think it would be too late.

If you have time, can you explain the reasoning behind repeated communication and displays of interest from an applicant being seen as a nuisance by adcoms? I have an minor update to share with them (becoming certified for one of my clinically relevant and main EC) but I have run into several comments similar to yours so I'm debating sending the update and LOI.

(Part of me wants to emotionally let go of this school *to save myself from future disappointment but if they really didn't like me, they would have just rejected me post II-R)

 

[GoSpursGo]

Their CTE deadline is June 15 so I'm sending it much earlier than that (around early April). By that point I think it would be too late.

If you have time, can you explain the reasoning behind repeated communication and displays of interest from an applicant being seen as a nuisance by adcoms? I have an minor update to share with them (becoming certified for one of my clinically relevant and main EC) but I have run into several comments similar to yours so I'm debating sending the update and LOI.

(Part of me wants to emotionally let go of this school but if they really didn't like me, they would have just rejected me post II-R)

Answer my original question: if you already told them this information multiple times, why would you expect that telling them the same information again would help?

That update seems irrelevant. Sounds like a slight upgrade over something they already knew you were doing.

Agree if they didn’t like you they would have rejected you. But the student who bugs administration over every little thing is exhausting. At a certain point, if your repeated contacts aren’t adding anything meaningful to your application and you are on par with other people on the WL, you run the risk of them just picking the candidate who hasn’t annoyed them all cycle.

 

[ByThe+C]

Answer my original question: if you already told them this information multiple times, why would you expect that telling them the same information again would help?

My thought process is that reaffirming the highest level of interest over time would add credibility to my willingness to attend this school over others.

 

[GoSpursGo]

My thought process is that reaffirming the highest level of interest over time would add credibility to my willingness to attend this school over others.

With the exception of the handful Of schools that like to get love letters to stroke their egos, they are going to take the student off the waitlist who they think is the strongest.

It sounds like you more or less have decided to do this no matter what so it’s kind of a moot point, and it’s probably unlikely to truly hurt you. But there is a reason multiple faculty members are saying that letters of intent don’t matter. As nice as it would be to believe you can grind your way to an A, in reality an applicant has done about everything they can possibly do to influence their chances of acceptance by the end of their interview barring a truly meaningful update.

 

[Goro]

My thought process is that reaffirming the highest level of interest over time would add credibility to my willingness to attend this school over others.

It also may reinforce the belief that you are an annoying person, or one who is excessively needy.

This isn't like dating.

 

[ByThe+C]

It also may reinforce the belief that you are an annoying person

Please help me because while I understand being annoyed by applicants sending material after being explicitly told not to send anything, I'm struggling to get into the mind of an adcom member who sees a waitlisted applicant show a deep level of interest (thru defined, non superficial reasons) in their school through several updates and communication and thinks "how annoying" instead of "they must really want to go here".

 

[xffan624]

Please help me because while I understand being annoyed by applicants sending material after being explicitly told not to send anything, I'm struggling to get into the mind of an adcom member who sees a waitlisted applicant show a deep level of interest (thru defined, non superficial reasons) in their school through several updates and communication and thinks "how annoying" instead of "they must really want to go here".

Imagine you are an adcom swamped with 100s of applications and attempting to fairly judge each applicant based on objective criteria and a specific process that you established in advance and then sort through each applicant. Every time an applicant sends an update, it's additional work to evaluate and process their submission through whatever process you've established. Applicant A sends one update with a updated grades for the new semester that is easy to update. Applicant B sends four separate updates with new grades, a extra clinical hours, some effusive praise for the school based on a insignificant new activity, and a letter of interest. An exaggerated example, but should give you can idea of how multiple updates can be annoying for what is a fairly resource intensive process for a school.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Please help me because while I understand being annoyed by applicants sending material after being explicitly told not to send anything, I'm struggling to get into the mind of an adcom member who sees a waitlisted applicant show a deep level of interest (thru defined, non superficial reasons) in their school through several updates and communication and thinks "how annoying" instead of "they must really want to go here".

I can't represent every faculty member or admissions professional, but let's go back to ancient times.

"Failure to follow directions" used to result in someone failing a test from K-12 up. When we had paper tests, not filling in your answer sheet with a Ticonderoga Number 2 pencil meant your answer might not be scored correctly. I couldn't explain why you couldn't use a Number 3 or a Number 1 (it indicates the lead hardness of the pencil, I think) on the Scantron sheets. Maybe it has something to do with erasing your answers if you changed them. Anyway, you wouldn't get credit and no appeal could help you.

No More No. 2 Pencils: The SAT Goes Fully Digital

The new format cuts nearly an hour out of the exam and has shorter reading passages.

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You don't want to be "that student" or applicant. It could come off as brown-nosing or could make people uncomfortable. Recently I emphasize "purpose" or mission over "passion" for medicine because it's not always good to take your passion to stalker-level "you and no one else" horror-movie extreme.

Students who also fish for advice and act on their own instincts in the face of contrary advice are also not desirable students.

 

[2023applicantxd]

@ByThe+C

 

[ByThe+C]

Every time an applicant sends an update, it's additional work to evaluate and process their submission through whatever process you've established. Applicant A sends one update with a updated grades for the new semester that is easy to update. Applicant B sends four separate updates with new grades, a extra clinical hours, some effusive praise for the school based on a insignificant new activity, and a letter of interest. An exaggerated example, but should give you can idea of how multiple updates can be annoying for what is a fairly resource intensive process for a school.

Thank you for explaining it this way. I think I underestimated the amount of work it takes to process an update and thought that whatever the update was would simply be attached to an applicant's file for later review.

I wasn't really fishing for advice supporting my decision to send a letter of intent. I apologize if this was implied somewhere. @It's Over and @GoSpursGo were correct in that I was going to send it since they're my number one and I've only sent this school one combined update and thank you note. I was just trying to get the perspective of the people in the other side of the process, not sure where I miscommunicated that I just wanted someone to give support. (Not that I wouldn't take the support since I have been trying to keep any hopes low this time so the disappointment hurts less this time)

 

[GoSpursGo]

Please help me because while I understand being annoyed by applicants sending material after being explicitly told not to send anything, I'm struggling to get into the mind of an adcom member who sees a waitlisted applicant show a deep level of interest (thru defined, non superficial reasons) in their school through several updates and communication and thinks "how annoying" instead of "they must really want to go here".

To put it bluntly--because EVERYONE really wants to go there. If you didn't, then you would not have applied, spent a secondary fee, written a bunch of secondary essays likely saying exactly what you would say in this theoretical update letter, attended an interview where you likely said many of the same reasons for wanting to attend as you would say in this theoretical update letter, and apparently have said many of the same things again in your prior updates. They know you want to go, just like they know everyone else on the waitlist wants to go--your reasons for wanting to attend are likely not unique, but even if they ARE unique I don't need you to tell me 5 times.

At a certain point you're just sending the update to make yourself feel better rather than because you actually have anything to say, and if you're doing that then you're not respecting my time as a reviewer. At best it is very unlikely to help you to repeat yourself, at worst annoying your reviewer can have a subconscious negative effect compared to the applicants who demonstrate patience.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I realized... I had written a version of my answer to why overcommunication is not ideal...

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