Long, sad story?

[almostPhD]

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Well, basically, I'm a 31 y/o grad student finishing up a Ph. D. in chemistry. I should defend in the fall.

For a variety of reasons, I'm sure that I no longer want to pursue chemistry as a career, and med school seems like something I might like to do.

Because of my age, and my position, though, I'd like to be certain that it's even an option for me before I make too many irreversible steps.

I come here, because I honestly don't have many other avenues to ask this question. I realize that people likely get this sort of thing all the time, but I don't feel I can just search the forum because my situation feels unique.

Please read this keeping in mind that I'd like to know what you feel my chances are for getting into MD/DO school.

I started my undergrad career at a decent private school, and did well my first year. I dropped out of school during my sophomore year, because, well, I came out of the closet and let's just say I had some family problems. In the process, I obviously have several withdrawals, but before I got out I damaged my GPA by getting a C in Calc III and an incomplete that converted to an F in physics II.

I stayed out of school for about a year and a half, and then tried again. This time I attended a smallish state school in my home town. I quickly dropped everything - too much too soon - and once again got an F, this time in tennis.

I came back, again at the state school, and started succeeding. A's in everything while following a BS in chemistry and minor in physics. I took hard courses, and did well. By the time I left, I was given the nicest scholarship that the chemistry department awards their undergrads - full tuition. Inexplicably I got an incomplete in a summer course for economics that converted to an F (I didn't even remember that until I looked at my transcript), but I took it again the next semester, and got an A. My last two years were basically 4.0s - and those were the years I took all my upper level chemistry and physics courses.

My transcript gives me a GPA of 3.6 - that's 3.0 at the private school, and 3.9 at the state school (they allow grade replacement).

I roughly calculate my GPA for applying to med school as a 3.4 (because of all the F's!) and 3.6 BCPM. If you allow for grade replacement, it's more like 3.6 / 3.8 science GPA.

Of course, it doesn't stop there. I went on to a decent state school to get a Ph. D. in chemistry. I got a 2070 on the GRE (600 verbal, 700 math, 770 analytical), and was awarded a fellowship. I've got 7 papers, 4 as first author, I've won a few awards, and I'm sure my boss and other committee members would write good recommendation letters. I've done well in my graduate coursework, having a 4.0 graduate GPA. I would like to point out that I've been a grad student for 7 years (I have been doing sort of abstract work that, in my opinion, takes some time).

Other bits of relevant information - I've not yet taken a single college level biology course. I've never applied to med school before. I've not started shadowing/volunteering. I would plan to apply in the next cycle.

Basically, I really want to know how badly my youth looks given my later history. Is getting in a "sure" thing, or a long shot.

I need to know this before I make any big decisions.

Thanks.

 

[relentless11]

All your classes are considered into the equation. However as more time goes by they are less representative of you today. Some schools may require you to retake the pre-req classes that you have taken already (e.g., your physics and calculus). Obviously you will need to take and do well in the remaining pre-reqs and MCAT.

Since you may have not taken a class in a year or two, it may be helpful to take a few upper division classes to keep in practice, and also show recent academic coursework. It can be in anything, but probably beneficial to do something like biochemistry which should be straight forward as a chemist, and relevant to med schools.

Really, your overall undergrad GPA is OK, even with the C's and F. Supported by your 4.0 grad GPA, it should be fine. The MCAT will be key. Aim for a 33 or higher. Age is not an issue, you are actually the median in terms of what i've seen at our school and a few others. UCSF last year had a student who entered at age 39!

Now in terms fo your question about getting into med school as being a "sure thing". My answer is NO. Even with a 4.0 and 45 MCAT, it may not be a sure thing. You'd probably get an interview, but the interviews are by people, and people have their own views on things. Whether or not you hit it off with the interview determines how well it goes at this stage. In the end there are WAY to many variables to say if its a sure thing or not, even under the most ideal conditions, in this imperfect world.

I've known people to have spectacular stats who had to apply twice to get in. One friend who had average stats gets totally rejected from schools that aren't ranked "high" on USNews, but gets waitlisted at a top tier school (in this case UCSF)...and eventually got in! My PI had an excellent student who applied something like 5 times. Rejected 4 times, and on the 4th time Harvard pretty much sent back a reply that essentially said "why are you even trying?". Anyway he's now an MD faculty at Massachusetts General (e.g., Harvard). Lastly, I've known people to give up after 1-3 times of apply too even with decent stats (3.3-3.4 GPA). I've seen many things, and what it all points to this process as being a crapshoot. Ok if you had a overall GPA of <2.5 and haven't done anything to improve your application....then you don't even diserve a secondary application, but many people have come from many backgrounds and have found success sooner or later.

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

Just wanted to say I'm coming from a similar situation (though, a lot worse...) and good luck! Persitence and determination count for a lot in this process 👍

 

[Learfan]

The answer to your question is yes, you can get in but it will take work. I am a PhD level chemist who left a job after 18 years of working at a major oil and chemical company to pursue a medical education. I will start the MS2 year next week. I would prefer your undergrad transcript as mine was a complete mess including withdrawls, Fs and other atrocities. I still made it in based in large part on MCAT scores. These will make up 50% of your credentials when applying so devote everything you have to killing the exam. If you would like to discuss any details of the application process, just PM me.

 

[MollyMalone]

The thing I wondered about when I read your story is how you know that medicine is something that you might be interested in doing with the rest of your life. That's definitely something that adcoms will be interested in knowing, and it's never to soon to start thinking about how you'll answer that question.

Your GPA numbers shouldn't be a huge obstacle to you, given the elapsed time and the upward trend.

Good luck!

 

[Philip64MD]

Med schools look for positive linear curve. State why you messed up, and then move on about everything you did, at State school, you PhD.

Also you might fight a great resource in AMSA LGBT group at
http://www.amsa.org/advocacy/lgbtpm/ the medical students and pre-meds have a great community and a great support system.

 

[Law2Doc]

Your age is not an issue -- lots of people have done it older. Med school won't be a "sure thing" for anyone -- but if you want it bad enough, you can probably make it happen. Don't assume your advanced degree or publications will make you a sure thing -- they look good as ECs but you'll be surprised at some of the credentials of traditional applicants you'll be competing with in the applicant pool. And don't count on the "grade replacement" at your state school being treated the same way on AMCAS though -- all grades and retakes generally will get factored in. You will need to take the bio courses, and retake physics II if you haven't already. High grades in these and a good MCAT score will go a long way in making your case that you had a false start but improved with age. And I agree with MollyM -- you haven't given much insight into why you are interested in medicine. A strong and compelling PS and accompanying strong interviews which explain your career trajectory will be quite important.

 

[Noeljan]

You are not old at all. Good luck. I think a phd in chem is awesome and it should help you.

 

[notdeadyet]

And I agree with MollyM -- you haven't given much insight into why you are interested in medicine. A strong and compelling PS and accompanying strong interviews which explain your career trajectory will be quite important.

Seconded (or thirded). Personally, I don't think career changing into medicine is all that worthwhile unless you absolutely have to have it. "med school seems like something I might like to do" doesn't make it sound as if you've determined it's your passion.

Before you take your prereqs you haven't already and some upper division in classes you have, I'd strongly recommend doing some volunteering and shadowing. It's going to be a critical part of your application anyway and you'll get a more realistic feel as to whether or not it's worth making all these sacrifices.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

Seconded (or thirded). Personally, I don't think career changing into medicine is all that worthwhile unless you absolutely have to have it. "med school seems like something I might like to do" doesn't make it sound as if you've determined it's your passion.

Before you take your prereqs you haven't already and some upper division in classes you have, I'd strongly recommend doing some volunteering and shadowing. It's going to be a critical part of your application anyway and you'll get a more realistic feel as to whether or not it's worth making all these sacrifices.

Totally Agree with MollyM, Law2Doc, and notdeadyet. You haven't worked as either a chemist or (it seems) been involved with medicine for a single day -- how do you know that:

1. You wouldn't like a career in chemistry.
2. You would like a career in medicine.

If you do well on the MCAT, and are able to show that you know what you are getting yourself into, your stats are only slightly below average (as others have said, for allopathic medical schools there is NO grade replacement, regardless of the policy of your college/university,) and you should have a good chance of getting in somewhere.

 

[chrisjohn]

Gee, I repeat myself all the time on this forum. Your UG grades aren't bad and with a PhD you've shown that you can handle the curriculum. Now, you need to blow up the MCAT (>35) and leave no doubt about your academic ability.

As for experience in medicine, sure it helps, but don't kill yourself getting some. I'd shadow a physician for a month or so, even better yet, get into a clinical research lab.

 

[Quix]

Totally Agree with MollyM, Law2Doc, and notdeadyet. You haven't worked as either a chemist or (it seems) been involved with medicine for a single day -- how do you know that:

1. You wouldn't like a career in chemistry.
2. You would like a career in medicine.

If you do well on the MCAT, and are able to show that you know what you are getting yourself into, your stats are only slightly below average (as others have said, for allopathic medical schools there is NO grade replacement, regardless of the policy of your college/university,) and you should have a good chance of getting in somewhere.

Fifthed. Without knowing why you want to pursue medicine, it's difficult to say why this might or might not be right for you, which is more of a fundamental question, IMO, than whether you will be able to get in. There are many people who can and will make brilliant scientists but horrible, horrible doctors.

 

[QofQuimica]

Totally Agree with MollyM, Law2Doc, and notdeadyet. You haven't worked as either a chemist or (it seems) been involved with medicine for a single day -- how do you know that:

1. You wouldn't like a career in chemistry.
2. You would like a career in medicine.

If you do well on the MCAT, and are able to show that you know what you are getting yourself into, your stats are only slightly below average (as others have said, for allopathic medical schools there is NO grade replacement, regardless of the policy of your college/university,) and you should have a good chance of getting in somewhere.

I'll fifth this advice. 😉

OP, I am another chemistry PhD to MD (starting M1 now), and it is ESSENTIAL that you have some kind of clinical experience before you apply, particularly if you think that you will not do research for a career. In my case, I spent my last year and a half of grad school volunteering as a coinvestigator for a clinical trial, and I was able to make a convincing case for why I needed the MD to accomplish my professional goals (i.e., doing clinical trials). Learfan is someone who also has his PhD in chemistry but does not want to continue in research, so if you want to go straight clinical, I highly recommend that you do PM him. But rest assured that whether your future plans include research or not, you'd better be prepared to defend your choice to switch careers with concrete evidence to "prove" to your interviewers and adcoms that you know that medicine is the right field for you.

Best of to you. 🙂

Edit: Darn, Quix beat me in, so now I have to sixth this advice. 😛

 

[Scottish Chap]

I agree with all of the above (PhD to MD here, too; about to start MSII). It made me anxious when I read the words "might like to" with regard to pursuing a medical degree. Medical school and medical practice are quite different and your post reads as though going to medical school is just a passing thought. This is one path you want to be as sure as you can be before you go any further. The training, time commitment, stress, and cost are too great and it's simply not worth it if you have the inkling that you might want to be some other place.

That said, based on my own humble background, I think you have an excellent chance at gaining admission into medical school if you obtain a presentable score on the MCAT (30+) and, more importantly, if you gain solid clinical exposure or experiences that will convince you (and, therefore, the admissions committee) that you really know what you're getting yourself into. Your background is very impressive and successful people tend to have success at most things they put their mind to. Good luck!

 

[stinastina]

I say go for it and if you need more support, check out www.oldpremeds.org. They are very supportive and you will read all kinds of success stories to get you motivated. I highly recommend that site. In addition, you should definitely try to shadow a physician, hopefully someone who does hospital and clinical work - that will give you a good idea if this is what you truly want.

Well, basically, I'm a 31 y/o grad student finishing up a Ph. D. in chemistry. I should defend in the fall.

For a variety of reasons, I'm sure that I no longer want to pursue chemistry as a career, and med school seems like something I might like to do.

Because of my age, and my position, though, I'd like to be certain that it's even an option for me before I make too many irreversible steps.

I come here, because I honestly don't have many other avenues to ask this question. I realize that people likely get this sort of thing all the time, but I don't feel I can just search the forum because my situation feels unique.

Please read this keeping in mind that I'd like to know what you feel my chances are for getting into MD/DO school.

I started my undergrad career at a decent private school, and did well my first year. I dropped out of school during my sophomore year, because, well, I came out of the closet and let's just say I had some family problems. In the process, I obviously have several withdrawals, but before I got out I damaged my GPA by getting a C in Calc III and an incomplete that converted to an F in physics II.

I stayed out of school for about a year and a half, and then tried again. This time I attended a smallish state school in my home town. I quickly dropped everything - too much too soon - and once again got an F, this time in tennis.

I came back, again at the state school, and started succeeding. A's in everything while following a BS in chemistry and minor in physics. I took hard courses, and did well. By the time I left, I was given the nicest scholarship that the chemistry department awards their undergrads - full tuition. Inexplicably I got an incomplete in a summer course for economics that converted to an F (I didn't even remember that until I looked at my transcript), but I took it again the next semester, and got an A. My last two years were basically 4.0s - and those were the years I took all my upper level chemistry and physics courses.

My transcript gives me a GPA of 3.6 - that's 3.0 at the private school, and 3.9 at the state school (they allow grade replacement).

I roughly calculate my GPA for applying to med school as a 3.4 (because of all the F's!) and 3.6 BCPM. If you allow for grade replacement, it's more like 3.6 / 3.8 science GPA.

Of course, it doesn't stop there. I went on to a decent state school to get a Ph. D. in chemistry. I got a 2070 on the GRE (600 verbal, 700 math, 770 analytical), and was awarded a fellowship. I've got 7 papers, 4 as first author, I've won a few awards, and I'm sure my boss and other committee members would write good recommendation letters. I've done well in my graduate coursework, having a 4.0 graduate GPA. I would like to point out that I've been a grad student for 7 years (I have been doing sort of abstract work that, in my opinion, takes some time).

Other bits of relevant information - I've not yet taken a single college level biology course. I've never applied to med school before. I've not started shadowing/volunteering. I would plan to apply in the next cycle.

Basically, I really want to know how badly my youth looks given my later history. Is getting in a "sure" thing, or a long shot.

I need to know this before I make any big decisions.

Thanks.

 

[S_Talos]

The first thing you should do is start shadowing, that's the only way you'll know if you really want it. Whether or not you can get in is up to how motivated you are... so you need to figure out what is motivating you to pursue medicine and only then should take pre-reqs, the MCAT, etc. But good luck!

 

[chanjurban]

The first thing you should do is start shadowing, that's the only way you'll know if you really want it. Whether or not you can get in is up to how motivated you are... so you need to figure out what is motivating you to pursue medicine and only then should take pre-reqs, the MCAT, etc. But good luck!

I realize that I'm getting to this thread quite late, but the main point cannot be over-emphasized..... you MUST be able to exhibit a solid interest in medicine and back it up with concrete experience of some sort in the field. Your grades and history won't keep you out, but it won't look good to the adcoms if it seems that you're deciding to change careers on a whim.

I got a master's in chemistry and taught high school chem for 5 years. I had a great GPA, great MCAT, and great letters of recommendation. When I went to my 1st set of interviews, I did NOT have neough significant experience in the medical setting. I didn't get in that year. The next year, I reapplied - and the major difference between the 2 applications was ~100 hours of volunteering and some shadowing of physicians in different settings. I got in the 2nd time around.

As a side note, from the 1 week that I have actually been in classes, I can honestly say that medical school is not something worth sacrificing for unless you really want it. And now I know that I really do.

 

[chrisjohn]

As a side note, from the 1 week that I have actually been in classes, I can honestly say that medical school is not something worth sacrificing for unless you really want it. And now I know that I really do.

I've got you beat by a week, and the education is unlike anything else. It's a privilege to be there. You're right; it makes it easier if you really want to be there. I just work through the day and prepare for the next without shaking my head too hard, lest the information fall out.

 

[almostPhD]

I certainly thank everyone for their feedback. And, I guess, I can't say the content is that surprising to me (well .... I am pleased that you all think my grades are not an impediment, that was what most concerned me).

Just for the record, I definately know that a far greater obstacle to my goals is explaining why I would like to make a change in career at this late date. And I also knew that I would need to shadow/volunteer. I've already started making arrangements to do just those things.

I would also like to address the person who suggested that I've never worked in the field of chemistry. I'm a seventh year grad student. I've taught classes. I've been employed by the university as a researcher. My next step, a postdoctoral fellowship, would basically be more of the same of what I'm doing. My ultimate career path would terminate in a professorship. I've been in academia basically all my life - I think I know what the job is like. What you're suggesting is like telling a resident that he has never worked a day as an attending, so has no idea what that would be like. I only point this out to educate - a science grad student, particularly one past their general examination, generally has a good idea what the day-to-day life of a scientist is really like, since, well, they are generally paid researchers/teachers with the dual pressures of performing well academically as well as professionally.

I'd like to ask another question, focused here by your comments. Is only a year of shadowing/volunteering going to cut it to convince myself/adcoms/etc that this is an appropriate career change? While I'd like to enter the system starting in the next cycle, I'd be willing to wait if it would signifigantly strengthen my application.

Also, a nuts-and-bolts type question, what is the ettiquite for asking for a shadowing opportunity? Letter best, or phone call best? To what level of detail concerning my background should a letter delve? If this last is a stupid question, please just ignore it - mind that I can and have googled, but I'd like to hear other opinions.

Is there a prefered type of volunteering activity? Hospital ER based? Hospice? VA? Shoot for variety?

Finally, what further things would you recommend I do to assess (again both for myself/adcoms/etc) my seriousness towards this goal?

Thanks for your kind interest!

 

[chrisjohn]

Get into a lab that does medical research. This shouldn't be hard at all. Spin it that your medically focused reasearch led you to medicine.

Yea, I'd think a year would work.

Got a buddy who went directly from a PhD in Chemistry to medical school who is in his first year of general surgery. Keep on keeping on is my best advice.

 

[almost_there]

You've gotten some really good advice here. A few points to add:

What other career paths can you pursue with your PhD in chemistry besides the academic route? What about industry? If you get paid well and work reasonable hours, do you know that this isn't what you want to do?

The major point is that there are MANY options for you outside of academia and outside of medicine... what makes you think that you really would prefer medicine over any of these?

Find as many physicians as you can to talk to -- family friends, friends of advisors/mentors, friends of friends, and ask them what they like/don't like about their jobs. Try to get a breadth of specialties and settings, especially those in the lifestyle that you think you may want to pursue. In the course of those discussions, you may have the opportunity to ask if you can shadow them for some period of time. They may also suggest other folks for you to talk to who may have, at one time, been in your position.

Good luck! 🙂

 

[Scottish Chap]

What other career paths can you pursue with your PhD in chemistry besides the academic route? What about industry? If you get paid well and work reasonable hours, do you know that this isn't what you want to do?

(S)he could do a two-year postdoctoral training program in clinical chemistry and share the lab medicine pager with pathology residents. That's what I did for a while. From there, you can become board-certified in a subspecialty of pathology without going to medical school. You don't need to stay in academia after that, and it's an excellent career.

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

I would also like to address the person who suggested that I've never worked in the field of chemistry. I'm a seventh year grad student. I've taught classes. I've been employed by the university as a researcher. My next step, a postdoctoral fellowship, would basically be more of the same of what I'm doing. My ultimate career path would terminate in a professorship. I've been in academia basically all my life - I think I know what the job is like. What you're suggesting is like telling a resident that he has never worked a day as an attending, so has no idea what that would be like. I only point this out to educate - a science grad student, particularly one past their general examination, generally has a good idea what the day-to-day life of a scientist is really like, since, well, they are generally paid researchers/teachers with the dual pressures of performing well academically as well as professionally.

Like the last poster said, I was referring more to "real" (i.e. non-academic) career options that you might have. Perhaps you are artificially limiting yourself. If you don't like my question(s), you certainly won't like those of your interviewers when you eventually do interview for medical school. At nearly all of my interviews so far, I have been asked about why I want to switch from my current career to medicine. I don't feel that I would be able to give a good answer that question unless I could demonstrate that I have explored all of the options within my current profession before just giving it all up and spending 7+ more years in school (will you decide that you just want to give it all up again then, too?)

Your motivation WILL be questioned, no doubt about it. You WILL be asked why you decided to completely turn your back on 7+ years of graduate education without having worked a day in the field. You WILL need good answers to make a good impression on your interviewers. I'm not trying to pick on you -- I'm just trying to give it to you straight. I do wish you the best of luck, however.

Jota

 

[almostPhD]

[jota_jota]Like the last poster said, I was referring more to "real" (i.e. non-academic) career options that you might have. Perhaps you are artificially limiting yourself. If you don't like my question(s), you certainly won't like those of your interviewers when you eventually do interview for medical school. At nearly all of my interviews so far, I have been asked about why I want to switch from my current career to medicine. I don't feel that I would be able to give a good answer that question unless I could demonstrate that I have explored all of the options within my current profession before just giving it all up and spending 7+ more years in school (will you decide that you just want to give it all up again then, too?)

Your motivation WILL be questioned, no doubt about it. You WILL be asked why you decided to completely turn your back on 7+ years of graduate education without having worked a day in the field. You WILL need good answers to make a good impression on your interviewers. I'm not trying to pick on you -- I'm just trying to give it to you straight. I do wish you the best of luck, however.

I'm sorry if I seemed cross, but it did kind of offend me to have 60+ hour weeks over 7 years described the way you described it. Maybe you've never been a grad. student, but it is very much a job, and I have very much been a chemist. Now that I understand that you instead meant that you feel that abandoning a degree that I've worked so hard to earn would be a red flag for an admission's committee, well I certainly understand what you're saying (believe me, exactly this problem crossed my mind long before you brought it up), and understand why you point it out.

I know precisely why I want to leave chemistry and I don't think industry is a long term solution for me - I have talked to people in industry already. My field is not particularly industry friendly, for one. I guess at this point I'll just have to trust that my honesty and the services of a good interview coach will carry the day for the good guys.

For the moment, I'd prefer to address things I can better control at this point of the process - advice on getting good shadowing opportunities and how best to volunteer.

I know I could be a good doctor, and I just need help to build the portfolio required to get the opportunity.

Thanks again for your insights.

 

[Ottercreek]

Hi

Another PhD to MD here (now an M3). You won't have problems getting in if you do well on the MCAT, and demonstrate intrest in medicine by volunteering (any field). In addition, there won't be any problem with switching fields if you make it clear you are interested both in patient care and (buzzword) translational research. You're not leaving chemistry behind, you just want to integrate your work with medicine, and see the results at the bedside. Even if that's not what you're interested in long term, I would put that spin on it, because it shows you have had a long term plan, and are not just moving into medicine on a whim.

The most important thing is to really determine whether medicine is what you want, as medical school is a serious commitment of time.

Best of luck,
OC

 

[Sol Rosenberg]

I'm sorry if I seemed cross, but it did kind of offend me to have 60+ hour weeks over 7 years described the way you described it. Maybe you've never been a grad. student, but it is very much a job, and I have very much been a chemist. Now that I understand that you instead meant that you feel that abandoning a degree that I've worked so hard to earn would be a red flag for an admission's committee, well I certainly understand what you're saying (believe me, exactly this problem crossed my mind long before you brought it up), and understand why you point it out.

I HAVE been a grad. student (I have a Master's degree, and years of work on my own PhD, although I decided to not finish my PhD, in part to devote more time to my career in industry) and it's statements like the one quoted above (i.e. [being a grad. student] "is very much a job") that make me question whether you really do know what you are getting into and that you really have explored other possibilities, as that statement is patently absurd.

But, I don't want to beat a dead horse here. So long as you understand what you need to do, what you are getting into, and have good reasons for pursuing a career in medicine, then you need to follow your dreams. Once again, best of luck to you.

 

[vashka]

This is slightly off topic, but is it possible to get a retroactive withdrawal based on serious family problems like ex. coming out of the closet? How would you prove that those problems affected your abilities during school and therefore deserve a retro withdrawal from the school?