Long Talk with my PI

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Eraserhead

OK my PI is shocked that I'm picking UC Irvine over SD.

Scenario: Two doctors are applying for a medical director position in a UCLA hospital... one went to UCSD and one went to UCI but both are great people with great credentials that got into great residency programs.

Does that fact that UCSD is ranked more highly in US News matter in people's minds for clinical positions? Do people really care about a name/ranking based on research funding (mainly) in this case even though the job is not related to research?

He thinks yes, I think no.
 
I really don't know, but I can tell you that both a professor I did research with (basic sciences) and a physician/researcher at UCSF told me that if you have any interest in academics whatsoever to go to a higher ranked school. Now I am assuming they meant teaching and research by that so I am not sure where a job in an academic hospital would fit.
 
See I'm not interested in academics at all... that's the thing....

OK here is the email to me in full.... what do you guys think? I've already made up my mind but I get really frustrated by these sorts of claims.
-------
UCI and UC Davis have never been in the same league as UCSF, UCLA, and UCSD.....all three of which have consisently ranked in the top tier (top 20) of medical schools by both academic and clinical medical faculty across the country. For the 2005 rankings, UCSD was ranked 17 among research medical schools and 7 among primary care medical schools. I did not see UCI in the top 50 rankings for either research or primary care medical school rankings....that is NOT good. For this reason, I would caution you about accepting UCI over UCSD since the reality in medicine is that a school's longstanding reputation can carry it through tough times and vice versa. Stanford is a good example of a medical school that has consistently been overranked.....because it has the name, Stanford. Were the medical school part of another university, it would not be ranked nearly as high. So, even though the recent statistics may look like UCI is doing a better job of matching for competitive residencies, I would look at results for the last 10 years. Often times, schools will do better for awhile but in the longrun, these turn out NOT to be sustained trends. UCI has a longstanding reputation as a second tier or lower school whereas UCSD has a longstanding reputation as a top tier medical school. Also, do not listen to rumors (even though they may help to reduce your cognitive dissonance).....check out the actual statistics for yourself...after all, this is probably the most important educational choice you will make with regard to your medical training and you should leave nothing uninvestigated.

Board scores are not a good indication of the quality of a school's medical training. Beware of schools that promote their board scores as indicative of superior clinical training. As you will see when you actually take the National Boards, Parts I and II, there is not a strong correlation between superior clinical training and board scores. For example, the University of Hawaii medical school in the 1980's had a reputation for having high board scores on Part I. Why? Because they tailored their entire basic science curriculum to the boards so that all the basic science exams were board style questions. What this amounts to is they have turned the first two years of medical school into a Henry Kaplan course. Although students may end up with high board scores due to forced familiarity with board style questions, in the end, they still don't get superior medical training.....and frequently, do not know how to problem solve very effectively around clinical cases.

Furthermore, the reputation of schools DOES have significant value in the non-academic, clinical setting. Your degree from UCSD will carry greater weight than a degree from UC Irvine. It does make a difference when you are applying for a salaried position somewhere or trying to join a group practice or being considered for an appointment as medical director of a clinic. Medicine is still very much governed by the world of appearances; and medical centers and clinics get more "prestige points" when their attending physicians have M.D. degrees and residency training certificates from top tier medical schools. Also, with the rising use of the internet by the AMA which provides you with a practice web page, patients are influenced by rankings of medical schools and will see UCSD as clearly superior to UCI, and this will influence which physician they choose or which practice they sign up with. Clinicians and practioners know this so having credentials from a top tier medical school will give you an advantage when competing against your peers for positions in private practice since this typically equates with increased practice revenues.

As for the "happiness" coefficient...this has always puzzled me. Medical school is like a prolonged rite of passage...it is hard work, at times abusive, and requires more endurance and stamina than academic prowess. It will stress you in ways you thought were not possible. Remember that the abuse coefficient was NOT reduced by the medical profession itself which knew for years that the long on-call hours amounted to significant abuse. It did nothing to police itself because the enormous financial gains of maintaining a cheap labor pool of interns and residents who worked abusively long hours for less than minimum wage far outweighed any moral or ethical obligations that such practices severely compromised patient safety. Despite many years of mistakes and errors on the part of sleep deprived residents, it took a legislative mandate that was initiated by people OUTSIDE the profession as a result of patient deaths, to limit the maximum number of hours per week and the number of on-call nights within a certain period of time. Having said all of this, and when you think about the delayed gratification, the loan debt; the amount of substance/ETOH abuse; the prolonged adolescence that being in school for that long fosters; and the personal toll the training takes on your significant other/partner/family....I don't think anyone would say that "happiness" is a term that really belongs in the descriptive nomenclature of the medical school experience.

My advice is to pick the medical school that will maximize your opportunities and in my opinion, UCSD is the clear winner here. Make sure you do not base your decision about medical school choice upon career choices you think you are interested in doing NOW. Trust me when I say that your career choices will largely be determined by your experience during your clinical rotations and the quality of the clinical mentors that you have. In my opinion, training at UCSD will give you a very well respected M.D. degree and leave more doors open for you than UCI........ and this is what you want at this stage of your medical training.
 
Eraserhead said:
See I'm not interested in academics at all... that's the thing....

OK here is the email to me in full.... what do you guys think? I've already made up my mind but I get really frustrated by these sorts of claims.
-------
UCI and UC Davis have never been in the same league as UCSF, UCLA, and UCSD.....all three of which have consisently ranked in the top tier (top 20) of medical schools by both academic and clinical medical faculty across the country. For the 2005 rankings, UCSD was ranked 17 among research medical schools and 7 among primary care medical schools. I did not see UCI in the top 50 rankings for either research or primary care medical school rankings....that is NOT good. For this reason, I would caution you about accepting UCI over UCSD since the reality in medicine is that a school's longstanding reputation can carry it through tough times and vice versa. Stanford is a good example of a medical school that has consistently been overranked.....because it has the name, Stanford. Were the medical school part of another university, it would not be ranked nearly as high. So, even though the recent statistics may look like UCI is doing a better job of matching for competitive residencies, I would look at results for the last 10 years. Often times, schools will do better for awhile but in the longrun, these turn out NOT to be sustained trends. UCI has a longstanding reputation as a second tier or lower school whereas UCSD has a longstanding reputation as a top tier medical school. Also, do not listen to rumors (even though they may help to reduce your cognitive dissonance).....check out the actual statistics for yourself...after all, this is probably the most important educational choice you will make with regard to your medical training and you should leave nothing uninvestigated.

Board scores are not a good indication of the quality of a school's medical training. Beware of schools that promote their board scores as indicative of superior clinical training. As you will see when you actually take the National Boards, Parts I and II, there is not a strong correlation between superior clinical training and board scores. For example, the University of Hawaii medical school in the 1980's had a reputation for having high board scores on Part I. Why? Because they tailored their entire basic science curriculum to the boards so that all the basic science exams were board style questions. What this amounts to is they have turned the first two years of medical school into a Henry Kaplan course. Although students may end up with high board scores due to forced familiarity with board style questions, in the end, they still don't get superior medical training.....and frequently, do not know how to problem solve very effectively around clinical cases.

Furthermore, the reputation of schools DOES have significant value in the non-academic, clinical setting. Your degree from UCSD will carry greater weight than a degree from UC Irvine. It does make a difference when you are applying for a salaried position somewhere or trying to join a group practice or being considered for an appointment as medical director of a clinic. Medicine is still very much governed by the world of appearances; and medical centers and clinics get more "prestige points" when their attending physicians have M.D. degrees and residency training certificates from top tier medical schools. Also, with the rising use of the internet by the AMA which provides you with a practice web page, patients are influenced by rankings of medical schools and will see UCSD as clearly superior to UCI, and this will influence which physician they choose or which practice they sign up with. Clinicians and practioners know this so having credentials from a top tier medical school will give you an advantage when competing against your peers for positions in private practice since this typically equates with increased practice revenues.

As for the "happiness" coefficient...this has always puzzled me. Medical school is like a prolonged rite of passage...it is hard work, at times abusive, and requires more endurance and stamina than academic prowess. It will stress you in ways you thought were not possible. Remember that the abuse coefficient was NOT reduced by the medical profession itself which knew for years that the long on-call hours amounted to significant abuse. It did nothing to police itself because the enormous financial gains of maintaining a cheap labor pool of interns and residents who worked abusively long hours for less than minimum wage far outweighed any moral or ethical obligations that such practices severely compromised patient safety. Despite many years of mistakes and errors on the part of sleep deprived residents, it took a legislative mandate that was initiated by people OUTSIDE the profession as a result of patient deaths, to limit the maximum number of hours per week and the number of on-call nights within a certain period of time. Having said all of this, and when you think about the delayed gratification, the loan debt; the amount of substance/ETOH abuse; the prolonged adolescence that being in school for that long fosters; and the personal toll the training takes on your significant other/partner/family....I don't think anyone would say that "happiness" is a term that really belongs in the descriptive nomenclature of the medical school experience.

My advice is to pick the medical school that will maximize your opportunities and in my opinion, UCSD is the clear winner here. Make sure you do not base your decision about medical school choice upon career choices you think you are interested in doing NOW. Trust me when I say that your career choices will largely be determined by your experience during your clinical rotations and the quality of the clinical mentors that you have. In my opinion, training at UCSD will give you a very well respected M.D. degree and leave more doors open for you than UCI........ and this is what you want at this stage of your medical training.


What can I say... your PI really seems to be looking out for you, which I think is cool. BUT, he's not the one that's gonna have to live with the decision. Anyone would tell you UCSD over Irvine. Hell, even I would consider it over Irvine (I did until I realized there was no shot in hell after not getting interviewed 😛 ) I can see what he means by not basing your decision on wjat career you might want now. When asked, I always say "so far, I would like to do OB/GYN, but it's not for sure until I get a chance to experience all the fields." Everyone wants you to narrow it down now. They always ask "so, what kind of Doctor are you going to be?" I think "Um, ask me in 4 years, boso!" Anyways, you have until Wednesday to make up your mind. My suggestion is to sleep on it some more, make lists of the pros and cons for each, and go from there.
 
Did I mention that you are an attention *****? :laugh: No. Seriously. 😀
 
Yeah, it's really nice of the professor to write all of that for you.
 
hamhamfan said:
Yeah, it's really nice of the professor to write all of that for you.

But I just don't think this is a good way to look at life. Its sad actually.
 
Your PI did make some good points...however, wasn't UCSD's rise in ranking a pretty recent event? It's probably used to be 20 or 30 something. UCSD has a better "name" than Irvine, but I'm not sure if there is even that much difference. Any perceived difference's probably more notable in California, but once you're not in California, I doubt the perceived difference's very great.

I mean if you're like choosing Irvine over UCSF or something, then I will really ask you to think twice...not that UCSD's not a good school. But the perceived difference in reputation between UCSD and Irvine doesn't seem huge enough to neglect other things you like about Irvine.
 
CalBeE said:
Your PI did make some good points...however, wasn't UCSD's rise in ranking a pretty recent event? It's probably used to be 20 or 30 something. UCSD has a better "name" than Irvine, but I'm not sure if there is even that much difference. Any perceived difference's probably more notable in California, but once you're not in California, I doubt the perceived difference's very great.

I mean if you're like choosing Irvine over UCSF or something, then I will really ask you to think twice...not that UCSD's not a good school. But the perceived difference in reputation between UCSD and Irvine doesn't seem huge enough to neglect other things you like about Irvine.

Well that's how I feel. In fact I already withdrew from UCSD, I just want to see what people think. And I'm disappointed that the email from my PI sounds like a post by BerkeleyPremed. It makes me think I have a bad advisor.

Yes, the rise is recent and inflated by NIH dollars that have little or nothing to do with the actual school. But his argument is that whatever the reason the money exists, that it makes the school better for all practical purposes ie, when I look for positions in the future.... not applying for residencies per se...
 
Eraserhead said:
But I just don't think this is a good way to look at life. Its sad actually.

I don't know how well you know your PI, but I honestly don't expect anyone to write me all of that. Maybe my relatives would argue it over a meal, but they probably wouldn't write all of that. Really, I think it's very kind and admirable that he/she did that.
 
Eraser....

I'm not in med school yet. But I what your PI says sounds *very* reasonable. Have you talked to any physicians who're doing what you want to do, and asked them?

Just my two cents....
 
hamhamfan said:
I don't know how well you know your PI, but I honestly don't expect anyone to write me all of that. Maybe my relatives would argue it over a meal, but they probably wouldn't write all of that. Really, I think it's very kind and admirable that he/she did that.

Yes, he's nice but that's not the point here.

The point is I just gave up my spot at a "top tier" school for a "low tier" school and he's basically saying to overlook the happiness factor, finance factor, location factor, and everything else for the prestige. I really don't think a patient deciding which doctor to choose is going to care whether anyone trained at UCI versus UCSD. I think that's pure BS. I think people in academics/ teaching hospitals might care but I'm 100% sure I'm not going that route.
 
hey eraser,

i just wanted to say that i think you made the right decision. i would go to irvine over sd in a second. i've spoken with a few fourth year med students at interviews and via email and they all seem to think that happiness should be your number 1 criteria in choosing a school. they say if you do well you'll be competitive in residency matches no matter where you go.

also, are you from central california?
 
hamhamfan said:
Yeah, it's really nice of the professor to write all of that for you.

Yea it definitely is, my PI wouldn't spend the time to write my friend a letter of rec. HE told him to write it himself and that he would sign it.
 
Does your PI know how much less in debt you will be at UCI? Also, what kind of physician is he? Psychiatrist?
 
Eraserhead, I think it's admirable that you can defend your choice. It may be true that UCSD may open up more doors for you than Irvine but it is false to assume that just because you went to UCI, you will NOT be able to receive great residencies and get great faculty positions at prestigious places. I know a doctor who graduated from UC Davis (a wonderful but often underrated school) and got a faculty position at Stanford. I'm sure there are lots of cases like this. For me, personally, when I go see a doctor, I don't even know what school he graduated from unless it happens to come up during a conversation. I don't respect or trust a doctor less if he graduated from UCI (it's not like patients would think, oh he's from UCI, i should probably switch to a doctor from UCSD then...). Most people who aren't familiar with the medical world don't care either way. Just by being a graduate from a UC school is already amazing enough to me. So whatever choice you make, you will be just fine! Good luck and congrats on knowing where you will be for the next four years, unlike most of us here... :luck:
 
UCSD has a slightly better rep than UCI but not enough to wet your pants over. Go where your happy in this case. If you chose UCI over UCSF/Stanford I would smack you over the head with a large trout. 😎
 
It was nice of your PI to take the time to write such a long letter.

Just to be cynical, though, what were his motivations were for taking so much time to write about two schools which (as others have stated) are not THAT far apart? It seems like he holds some pretty strong opinions, and usually those come from personal experience.

Did he go to UCSD or UCI himself or get passed over for a promotion because he went to a "lower ranked school" in his life? Just wondering...
 
Am I wrong or arent you waiting for Stanford? I dont know where i got that impression.
 
My PI says that any UC will get you a top position in academic medicine, if that's what you want. He says that UC's don't really care too much about the ranking differences btwn UC's b/c everyone in Cali knows how hard it is to get into a UC and that's what they recognize. Once you've reached the level of choosing btwn 2 UC med schools, rankings shouldn't really factor in(that's what my PI says), b/c all UC schools are more or less equally respected and recognized.
 
willow212 said:
It was nice of your PI to take the time to write such a long letter.

Just to be cynical, though, what were his motivations were for taking so much time to write about two schools which (as others have stated) are not THAT far apart? It seems like he holds some pretty strong opinions, and usually those come from personal experience.

Did he go to UCSD or UCI himself or get passed over for a promotion because he went to a "lower ranked school" in his life? Just wondering...

He did an MD/ residency/ fellowship at UCSF in psychiatry. He's VERY into the US News rankings but knows nothing about the actual differences between the schools. He also thinks all med students are miserable. I disagree. Some have more free time and are thus happier. I'm going to be very happy when I can take a day off, get in my car, and drive up to West Hollywood to chill.

And yes, I've been seeing an opthalmologist since I was 2 years old. He went to UCLA for his training as I was always told...well for his residency anyway. I've always thought of him as a very smart UCLA graduate but I found out recently that he went to UCI for his MD. And do I care? Does anyone care? I doubt it.

Yes, I'm from central CA, why?
 
Well, I think it's kind of discouraging to hear someone be so focused on rankings that are inevitably flawed. But at the same time, I think there are probably a significant number of people in the medical profession who, at least anecdotally, claim that their best residents came from "lesser ranked" schools and are open to a great student from a school outside of the top 20. I also think (at least I hope) that medical school has changed a lot since he was there, and that abuse and misery may not factor in as much as he says. Every school I interviewed at seemed to have a more nurturing environment, and the students seemed committed to having a life outside of their studies. Regardless, congrats on making a decision and going with your gut. As agoinizing as this decision is for all of us, I doubt that by this time next year any of these other schools will be on our minds at all. By the way, are you still waiting on cornell?
 
YES! If Dean Bardes from Cornell called me on the first day of classes, I'd hop on a plane to NYC. I'm going to check in with them in a few weeks and see if I have a chance.

WEILL WEILL WEILL WEILL WEILL 😀
 
Grumpy Bear said:
Every school I interviewed at seemed to have a more nurturing environment, and the students seemed committed to having a life outside of their studies.

Most schools yes. I don't think all of the top schools do this. Cornell yes, Penn I'm sure yes...
 
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