Looking for clarification on salary

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You need to frame that number with the time, effort, and ability needed to earn a PhD. A psychiatrist or physician makes at least fifty percent more on average. And by no means is this meant to turn into a debate on which profession requires more skill or training, but if you spend the bulk of your twenties earning very little while you pursue an advanced degree such a salary can be disappointing.
 
Perhaps this is an extreme case but I think this may apply to many students. A person may be trying to pay off debts from their Bachelors, Masters and/or Doctorate so making $75,000 really wouldn't be that sufficient (if they don't want to be paying forever) especially if they have other bills and possibly a family to support.

I'm also thinking that the $75,000 salary may be before taxes. Now I don't know about California taxes but where I live (New York City) they kill you with taxes so what you're making on paper and how much you're actually taking home are two different things.
 
Keep in mind that the 75K figure is the overall median salary, not the median starting salary. It may take a decade or more to reach that figure, and new psychologists are going to be on the lower end of the bell curve. On average, new psychologists are going to be in their late 20s/early 30s. This is the period of life when lots of people are getting married, having children, and buying homes. All of that costs money, so even 75K a year can disappear pretty fast, especially in a high cost of living area like Beverly Hills.

On a complete side note, one thing that frustrates me when people start discussing salaries is that people tend to assume that a lot of us will marry spouses who make as much or more money than we do. Maybe this is because psychology is a field dominated by women? I don't know. However, this discounts every other arrangement. What if we are the sole income earners in a household? What if we couple with artists who need money to open their studios? What if we are single parents?

Anyway, you're right, 75K is nothing to sneeze at, and it is certainly not going to leave people completely poverty stricken. At the same time, I can see why people are advocating for pay that is more commensurate with the amount of time we spend in training.
 
You should also remember:

1 - Psychologists' salaries are FALLING, not rising. Thus, $75K may be the median now (actually the APA reports it as approximately $51K, not $75K) but will not be in the future

2 - You will be out of the workforce taking on debt for many years. Therefore, the amount you will earn should be considered in this light.

From someone who just received her Ph.D., I would STRONGLY urge you to choose another field. Get your M.D. or N.P. and get therapy training on the side. That way you can prescribe in the mornings, make your money there, and then do therapy at your leisure in the afternoon or something. Although the work is intersting, the money just isn't there. The lack of pay, respect, etc. just causes stress in your personal life and leads you to burn out.
 
Just as a counter to the previous post, my first job after postdoc paid quite a bit more than the median quoted above. And this has gone up yearly since that time.

I took on a rather small debt load while in graduate school, essentially by taking only a small amount of $$ out to supplement my stipend. It is paid off, and I am living comfortably. My spouse actually makes less than I do.

I am by no means entrepreneurial, so I wouldn't credit this with anything unique about me. But I did go to an APA accredited school with full funding, attended an APA accredited internship, and completed a solid postdoc. I think my training background was critical in terms of landing a solid, decently well paying position.
 
Regarding edieb's point, clinical psychology as a profession still ranks very highly in most surveys I've seen as regards overall career satisfaction, so I don't think 'burnout' is as much of a problem as in other fields.

Regarding the larger point (salary), the reality is much more complicated than just the gross number of dollars you get paid per year.

The factors I can see are (some of which have been mentioned) first, debt. This includes the raw number of dollars you owe, as well as the interest rate you're carrying (the manageability of, say, 100K debt greatly varies when your rate is 2 percent versus 8 percent).

Complicating the issue of debt further is the question of what may happen to the value of the dollar in the future. Are we in a deflationary spiral (e.g., is an average dollar getting more valuable rather than less)? Therefore, getting in lots of debt to fund a grad school education with at best a modest financial payoff is not such a good idea. Is mass inflation (or even hyperinflation) in our future? Then getting in lots of debt for a(n hopefully quality) education *is* a good idea.

Finally, there's the cost of living. The 75K figure is a king's ransom in a place like Rochester, New York (as an example I'm familiar with), but barely qualifies you as middle class in San Francisco county.
 
The salary reports are always all over the range because some people work 30hr a week, others 60+. If you go to an APA-acred program (avoiding the $100k+ debt), APA-acred internship site, and you completely a decent post-doc.....you probably will be okay.

The job satisfaction comment above is spot on. The vast majority of psychologists I know enjoy what they do, make enough money for a middle-class lifestyle, etc. My one caveat is that money management (making/spending...including debt) can be very impactful. The people with <$30k debt are doing great, and the >$100k+ are most likely significantly less comfortable.

Money isn't everything though. I have friends who make $250k+ as investment bankers, partners at law firms, etc....and they are miserable because they work crazy hours doing something that they don't much like. I'd be right there with them, and while I really miss the financial security, the lifestyle was horrid. There is still money to be made in psychology, it just takes someone willing to put in the time, effort, and resources.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
My one caveat is that money management (making/spending...including debt) can be very impactful. The people with <$30k debt are doing great, and the >$100k+ are most likely significantly less comfortable.
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Of course, again, 30K of, say, credit card debt (which could be accomplished by a grad student attempting to manage his or her living expenses) can in some cases be even more devastating than 100K of student loan debt. It all depends on the type of loan (fixed or variable), fees, and rate.
 
What is a realistic salary range for a neuropsychologist? (Median and entry level). How many years of experience might be necessary to break out of the entry level salary range?

I currently make <$40k and don't enjoy the type of work I do. For me, committing to 10+ years to make a significant career change seems worthwhile for job satisfaction. I'm good at managing my finances, have a paid off car, and do not plan to start a family.
 
There was a salary survey of neuropsychologists done by Jerry Sweet published in early 2007, but I no longer have the article and Im not sure of the citation.

Yes, its higher, but not much higher frankly. The economic advantage of neuropsychology could be substantial if you do alot of IME, tort, or forensic work, however, the "average" neuropsycholgist doesn't make all that much more than the average "clinical psychologist", from what I know. The 2 additional years of sacrificed income during post-doc really only make it worthwhile if you truly love the field OR if you know and are determined to break yourself into the world of private practice forensic neuropsychology. Not having spouse and family commitments would certainly make that easier, as well.
 
erg923 said:
There was a salary survey of neuropsychologists done by Jerry Sweet published in early 2007, but I no longer have the article and Im not sure of the citation.
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Is this the salary survey you were thinking of?
napnet.org/TCN%20salary%20survey.pdf
 
You are best served by speaking to local psychologists who work in the same area in which you want to practice. There can be a large difference by region and also by specialty. For instance, I know someone in NYC who makes $150k+ doing private practice therapy and someone else who makes $75k at a VA (80% clinical, 20% research). The latter person owns a home and lives quite comfortably in the midwest, with the former person will probably forever rent and need to make that money to afford to stay in NYC.

I would caution getting stuck on the higher numbers, because those people are not the "average". For every high paying job I know, there are probably 5 that don't pay much more than a MA/MS/etc. level job. Sadly we start so low with internship; I think the average for this past year was ~$22k, and it doesn't get much better for post-doc/fellowship. I was fortunate to land on the higher end of fellowship money, though I saw plenty of places offering $25-$30k (counseling centers, MHCs, etc) and getting a ton of applicants. By the time a psychologist gets out and licensed, $60k seems like a lot of money, but in reality you'll struggle living on that in many areas of the country (I have an East coast bias). First jobs out can be $55k or they can be $85k+, you just need to be in that top % and not one of many applying to a, "MA/MSW/Ph.D/Psy.D." listed job.

I'm just planning to marry rich. 😀
 
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RisumCattus said:
edieb I think you minsunderstood, I'm not interested in teaching or research. I'm getting my PsyD not my PhD. The Salaries and outlook is completely different. But thanks for the link it's good info to have regardless.
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Don't become a psychologist.

If you want to be a practitioner there are many better ways (a PhD being one of them, but there are a multitude of options).
 
RisumCattus said:
edieb I think you minsunderstood, I'm not interested in teaching or research. I'm getting my PsyD not my PhD. The Salaries and outlook is completely different. But thanks for the link it's good info to have regardless.
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I think you're living in a fantasy, your worldview seems a bit skewed... I was looking at a position the other day, a post-doc VA position that was paying $44,000 per year. Don't expect to roll out of your internship with a $75,000 a year job, you might, but I wouldn't count on it. Expect in CA to spend $0.50 of every dollar in some kind of tax.

Mark
 
Yes, the outlook is slightly different. Psy.ds on average take slightly lower paying positions and typically have massive debt to pay off.

And, as others have said, please do not come into this profession with the attitude of "I'm not interested in research." Not interested in pursing a Tier 1 tenure-track academic career, fine....but not interesteed in research? That's the entire backbone and orgin of the field for goodness sake! If a psychologist has no idea how to research the effectivenes of his or her treatments or interventions, then what are you exactly? Your not a "psychologist," thats for sure. Research skill sets and the "think like a scientist" mindset is what seperates a psychologist for a "psychotherapist" or social worker. There are already some "I hate stats" artsy types wondering around in the ranks...and I dont think that bodes well for furthering the science of this profession.
 
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RisumCattus said:
edieb I think you minsunderstood, I'm not interested in teaching or research. I'm getting my PsyD not my PhD. The Salaries and outlook is completely different. But thanks for the link it's good info to have regardless.
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Yeah, if you're not interested in research, get an MFT or LCSW or something like that. Clinical psychologists are what they are because they are supposed to be trained in research (as well as psychotherapy and assessment).
 
1.) You brought it up with your statement, it didnt come out of thin air 2.) The nice things about discussion board forums is that conversations can drift and branch out, thus allowing for the discussion of interesting ideas, perspectives, etc. Many people find that to be a great part of SDN. Sometimes thing will be said that your dont like or dont wanna hear. Thats life.

I think members of this profession have the obligation to point out misperceptions of the field (such as what you stated) so that people can be as informed as posible with making such important life/career decisions. Indeed, that is why this board is here.
 
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I want to point out that it's a bit unrealistic to only want to work in one neighborhood. Beverly Hills is probably one of the most competitive markets for both psychologists and physicians (especially plastic surgeons). Sure, there's a lot of paying clientele, but there's a huge number of practitioners in the area to meet that demand. Ones who have been there for a long time, and have impeccable credentials.

In my experience, most high-income patients are educated and discerning and prefer to pay a UCLA grad/professor who trained with the best/has published articles/is an expert in the field (and has a private practice), than a dime-a-dozen local Psy.D. who has no way of distinguishing themselves. If it were that easy, everyone who gets a Psy.D. from Alliant LA/Pepperdine/Chicago School (and there are plenty), would set up a cash-only practice on the West Side. That is hardly the case.

Don't get me wrong, there are doctors who make lots of money in Beverly Hills, but they are the rare alpha dogs. You can't just take a survey of practitioners' incomes there, because its a completely biased sample. That market is so well-entrenched that it's very hard to break-into, and the practices that have failed are already gone, so the only ones left to call are generally the successful practices. Don't just assume that because you've heard of one or two practices that are successful there, that you will be too, because you don't hear of the other 20 that couldn't do it full-time.

Most aspiring/current Psy.D. students in CA I talk to have not done their homework and are delusional about the real world. They think they can go to any local program close to home, not go to an APA-approved internship (because all they want to do is private practice), and then just hang up a shingle in an expensive neighborhood, and have patients throwing cash at them to pay off their massive $150-200K debt. Go to psychologytoday.com and look how many therapists already exist where you want to practice, at all different pay rates and practices. In the real world, its all about the economics of supply & demand, not self-confidence. The supply of therapists far exceeds demand in any nice metropolitan area.
 
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And how are you going to learn about research if you have no desire (interest) to do any of that stuff in grad school?

The point was that you have to have some real interest in the science of psychology and yes, the actual production of something meaningful...so you can learn the process of doing it and evaluating it. Typically when people say that they “have no interest in research,” it means they feel that "stats are yucky" and " all I wana do is help people". That crowd should be in another field. If you really don’t have an underlying curiosity to research and tinker with ideas and clinical data that you come across, grad school (even a psy.d.) will not be fun experience for you.
 
RisumCattus said:
Nah, stats aren't yucky. Performing experiments aren't yucky. Making up your own from nothing with intent to publish is yucky (as an extra note here, I hope to eventually do my dissertation on Borderline PD, which as I'm sure we all know, just finding subjects alone for that kind of research will be difficult, nevermind trying to get them to cooperate and get useful data). I don't feel that because I don't love that part of it though I need to switch feilds.
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Regarding your last sentence...some would obviously disagree with you. I'm interested in why you want your doctorate, versus your masters in clinical. I don't want to start any sort of arguement, but I am very curious. If all you are interested in is clinical work (applied), you can certainly do that with a masters. I myself am applying to PsyD as well as balanced PhD programs, and while I am a bit more clinical in my interests, I am also very interested in research and in being involved in research pursuits. It makes sense for somebody with my interests/experience to obtain a doctoral degree. However, if ALL I wanted to do was applied clinical work, I would finish up my masters and call it a day.
 
Student4Life0 said:
Regarding your last sentence...some would obviously disagree with you. I'm interested in why you want your doctorate, versus your masters in clinical. I don't want to start any sort of arguement, but I am very curious. If all you are interested in is clinical work (applied), you can certainly do that with a masters. I myself am applying to PsyD as well as balanced PhD programs, and while I am a bit more clinical in my interests, I am also very interested in research and in being involved in research pursuits. It makes sense for somebody with my interests/experience to obtain a doctoral degree. However, if ALL I wanted to do was applied clinical work, I would finish up my masters and call it a day.
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Yes, but then you get into the dabate about how much therapy masters level folks should be really be allowed to practice (some argue not much beyond supportive), and how their practice of therapy for 100 bucks cheaper is part of what is killing doctoral-level psychs in private practice and in hospitals, most recently VAs. I think it is stil ok to pursue the doctorate even if you want to primarily do therapy. As long as you are a practitioner of scientific, empirically-validated interventions, I think its ok. In other words, you stay true to being a scientist in your both your mind-set and in your practice approach. Its not gonna be the most economically viable use of your doctorate, but it can be done.
 
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erg923 said:
Yes, but then you get into the dabate about how much therapy masters level folks should be really be allowed to practice (some argue not much beyond supportive), and how their practice of therapy for 100 bucks cheaper is part of what is killing of doctoral levels psychs in private practice and in hospitals, most recently VAs. I think it is stil ok to pursue the doctorate even if you want to primarily do therapy. As long as you are a practitioner of scientific, empirically validated interventions, I think thats fine. In other words, you stay true to being a scientist in your mind-set and practice approach. Its not gonna be the economically viable use of your doctorate, but it can be done.
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<---this 😍
 
If some of them are indeed "very bad," and you know this, its not something to dismiss. You need to examine them.

I'd suggest you talk about them with a psychlogist. You really dont want to get in a field like this for the wrong reasons. Peoples mental health, and indeed lives, are in your hands...
 
RisumCattus said:
Guys, I don't want this to become a thread on what it entails to be a psychologist, and a debate on if I'm in the right feild for the right reasons. I only had some questions on salary, which I had answered. So please, stay on topic or don't say anything.
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You might remember, you asked us for our input. Your post telling us to stay on topic or shut up comes across as rude and unappreciative. The scenario you described sounds completely unrealistic, I hope you really take in what people are telling you. There is a reason you got the kinds of responses you did, why do you think that is?

Mark
 
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Science and research are integral parts of being a psychologist. I have a much greater appreciation for the role of research now that i'm at an R1. It has much more to do with our training and not degree. Psychologist need to keep up on research because it informs our treatments and multi-disc. teams rely on us to make the right recommendations.
 
RisumCattus said:
I'm beyond horrible at articulating myself, and regardless of what I make it sound like on this forum, getting a PsyD is what I am passionate about doing. I make myself sound like a confused idiot (and maybe I am) but I know it's the right path for me.
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For someone who just wants to provide therapy, it is especially important to nurture your expressive verbal skills and articulation of your ideas. Also, openness to feedback and opinions is equally important in grad school and in our profession. My humble opinion is that some soul searching is in order. To pursue a profession feeling confused about it yet knowing it's the right path doesn't seem to bode well for a doctoral degree, aka, a large chunk of your life.
 
erg923 said:
Yes, its higher, but not much higher frankly. The economic advantage of neuropsychology could be substantial if you do alot of IME, tort, or forensic work, however, the "average" neuropsycholgist doesn't make all that much more than the average "clinical psychologist", from what I know. The 2 additional years of sacrificed income during post-doc really only make it worthwhile if you truly love the field OR if you know and are determined to break yourself into the world of private practice forensic neuropsychology. Not having spouse and family commitments would certainly make that easier, as well.
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I hadn't considered forensic work, but it sounds challenging and possibly a direction that I'd be interested in. Could I transition into forensic neuropsychology later on (after gaining experience as a neuropsychologist)?

My favorite leisure time is spent reading reference textbooks or finding interesting neuroscience articles online. The curiosity is infinite... I'm fascinated by the complexity of brain functions and the relationship between behavior and the brain, although I'm not sure of specific research interests yet. (Figured the specific interests would develop during the undergrad program.)

For this reason, neuropsychology would be more fulfilling than my current line of work. There is a strong desire to learn as much as possible. As for other lifestyle habits that would be helpful... I try to buy things on sale and minimize my monthly expenses (no cable tv or cell phone; using the public library as a resource for books & dvds).
 
neuro202 said:
My favorite leisure time is spent reading reference textbooks or finding interesting neuroscience articles online.
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Dude......
 
Forget it. I'm just going to talk to some people in person, and keep doing what I love. Peace everyone, I'm outta here. Keep on doing what you do. :beat:
 
I love how he deletes his previous posts.
 
I think this is more of a maturity thing than anything else. But hey, I bet Argosy would appreciate his $150,000!
 
Your favorite leisure activity?....you gotta start "livin" man. :laugh:

Yes, people get into to forensic and tort work after having more general careers in neuropsychology. Obviously, one needs to be a good npsych and diagnostician first, as having your work scrutinized and challenged by colleagues in a court requires that you are top notch in your field.
 
erg923 said:
Your favorite leisure activity?....you gotta start "livin" man. :laugh:

Yes, people get into to forensic and tort work after having more general careers in neuropsychology. Obviously, one needs to be a good npsych and diagnostician first, as having your work scrutinized and challenged by colleagues in a court requires that you are top notch in your field.
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It is definitely not something I'd recommend without solid training in both, including formal mentorship. I'm currently reviewing a stack of research on malingering assessments, and I know there is a ton more out there.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
It is definitely not something I'd recommend without solid training in both, including formal mentorship. I'm currently reviewing a stack of research on malingering assessments, and I know there is a ton more out there.
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I'd hate to be in that business. I've been reading the Hare book on psychopathy ("Without Conscience") and I will say after reading a few chapters I think I much prefer trying to detect people who are impaired but attempting to "fake good" rather than scammers or psychopaths trying to "fake bad."
 
I would just add that it is now standard and expected that neuropsychologists include measures of response bias and effort (eg., WMT or MSVT) in their evaluations, no matter who the patient is. Poor effort can occur in the absence of obvious external incentives and can indeed occur for a variety or reasons, one of which is simple apathy or demoralization. I think it important be able to have some sort of objective statement regarding validity of test results other than "um, well he looked like he was trying his best."🙂
 
erg923 said:
I would just add that it is now standard and expected that neuropsychologists include measures of response bias and effort (eg., WMT or MSVT) in their evaluations, no matter who the patient is. Poor effort can occur in the absence of obvious external incentives and can indeed occur for a variety or reasons, one of which is simple apathy or demoralization. I think it important be able to have some sort of objective statement regarding validity of test results other than "um, well he looked like he was trying his best."🙂
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I always include a few measures, as I often run into low effort and/or secondary gain issues.
 
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Therapist4Chnge said:
I always include a few measures, as I often run into low effort and/or secondary gain issues.
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I would think that there are a lot of subtests embedded in standard measures that can be used as effort indices (which is kind of what I do) - for example, poor digits forward compared to digits backward, poor recognition memory in the context of intact memory performance using other measures, etc....
 
erg923 said:
Your favorite leisure activity?....you gotta start "livin" man. :laugh:

Yes, people get into to forensic and tort work after having more general careers in neuropsychology. Obviously, one needs to be a good npsych and diagnostician first, as having your work scrutinized and challenged by colleagues in a court requires that you are top notch in your field.
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To clarify, it was this leisure activity that helped me realize I wanted to switch careers. I still maintain a good balance between this and other activities (movies, music, spending time with friends, etc). I'm paying off some bills before starting the undergrad program and at that point, studying will be for the purpose of school.

Oh, and I'm also a female. 😀

I'm most interested in working in a hospital or participating in clinical drug trials and not as keen on having my own practice. Besides salary, are there any other aspects that would be important to take into consideration when comparing these with forensic work? And... If I decided forensic neuropsychology was truly a good fit for me, would it be better to minor/double major in criminal justice during the undergrad program or begin incorporating this training later?
 
If you want to, sure. Its always advantageous to know more about the criminal justice system and the law as psychologist (not just as a forensic psych), but to be clear, when I say "forensic," I was referring mostly to civil matters such as torts, injury, medical decision capacity, and workers comp. Competency to stand trial, criminal responsibility, "diminished capacity" and all that stuff is a whole other level that is gonna require fellowships and specialty training to really break into. Frankly, the stress of that work would not be be something I would wanna deal with. Then again, I am male, married, and getting ready to have a family, so we might have different perspectives on that...
 
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