Looking for Feedback re: Post-Bacc GPA

[annbow]

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Hello...new to the board here and looking for some feedback.

I am beginning work on a 2nd Bachelors degree in August. I have a B.S. in Psychology (2.7 GPA). I am going to work towards a Biology degree.

My question is simply (or perhaps not) how the prior GPA plays into the 2nd B.S. and application process to md/do school. Is the Biology degree GPA completely separate and independent of any prior classes? I have no doubt the admissions committees will look at the 2.7, but if I'm able to do well in the biology and get above a 3.5 wouldn't you think that would carry more weight?

I'm not new to wanting to be a doctor, just new to the realization that it may still be possible (albeit a long, difficult road) - I just want my baby boy to be proud of me and that I didn't give up my dream - no matter what it takes.

Any feedback/insight would be appreciated...

Regards,
Anne

 

[Captain Fantastic]

The primary application (AMCAS) reports your GPA in different ways. They will list your cumulative undergrad GPA -- that's every undergrad class you've ever taken. They will also break the GPA up by semesters: freshman, sophomore, junior, senior, and post-bacc.

So when the medical school gets your application they will have those numbers to work with.

A few schools have hard GPA cut offs. If your post-bacc isn't long or strong enough to bring up your cumulative GPA to that threshold you'll be screened out. Most schools give more weight to the current work, but don't be surprised to get questions during interviews about why you performed more poorly the first time and how you were able to turn things around.

You have to do well in your second degree program, I'd recommend doing better than a 3.5 (the average accepted student has a 3.6 and most don't have the baggage we non-trads bring along). Aim high and work hard.

 

[annbow]

I appreciate your response and positive tone - I haven't run into too many folks who are even remotely encouraging.

My cum. gpa is the problem - I have a lot of hours, and I mean a lot - I guess I need to sit down and look to see if it is even possible to get a cum. 3.6 with all the classes I've taken and the new classes for the biology degree.

I went to a university for 4 years, didn't graduate and left w/ 119 hours (I can't even remember what my GPA was) and then about 1 year later went back to a different university and finished my degree with 2.7 - I would assume I took at least 50 hours (took me 2 years to finish after my prior work transfered).

I don't know if I'm articulating my question/concern correctly...I guess, I'm looking at this 2nd degree as a "do-over" "second chance" kind of thing - and maybe I'm misunderstanding what its point is if they are still going to "count" the prior coursework in the calculation of the new GPA from the 2nd degree.

I understand the committee will see that I sucked it up in the past, but I want them see separately that I did well now and the work (pre-reqs) that i took to apply are the classes that I now have a 3.6 in...does that make more sense?

I appreciate your time and patience in reading 🙂

Thanks,
Anne

 

[Nasem]

well, I can tell you that I was in a similar situation when I graduated from my undergrad back in 2004.

My overall GPA was 3.01 (136 credits), and about 2 years ago, I realised I wanted to go into medicine.... so I had 2 options....

1) either do a formal or informal post-bacc ~ meaning you go back to school and just simply take undergrad level courses (your not really going after a degree here, just taking classes here and there), primary reason for this is to increase the undergrad GPA (in my case from 3.01 to something higher) and to take any pre-med requirements that I had not taken in the previous BS degree

2) 2nd option is actually go and just obtain a 2nd bachelors degree, which does the same thing as the first option.... and that is increase the overall undergrad GPA.

I went with Option 1, there was no need for me to obtain a 2nd bachelors degree. In my opinion, having 1 or 10 BS degree doesn't really make that much of a difference when it comes to medical schools, the biggest thing they like to look at is your GPA + MCATs. But its up to you on what you want to do, either option you take, will lead to increasing your undergrad GPA.

The only time undergrad GPA does not increase is when you take graduate level courses, those count toward a new caterogy in the medical addmissions process (Graduate category)

Just a little warning, as I mentioned a second ago, I have been doing a post-bacc, and raising my undergrad GPA is a B!7CH !!!! 21 credits of post-bacc with straight 4.0 brought that 3.01 to just a 3.14 (IT TAKES FOREVER to raise that undergrad GPA)

 

[Captain Fantastic]

It might not be reasonable to get your cum GPA up to 3.6. That could require hundreds of hours of additional course work. The important thing to do is get a decent number of hours of with fantastic grades in this program to show you've got what it takes. Couple that with a good MCAT, nice extra-curriculars (like research, volunteering, shadowing, etc.) and you'll have a nice package when you apply.

It will be a tough row to hoe. When you apply, you'll need to research potiential schools and apply broadly. You'll get a few rejections along the way, but if you start with a good foundation of getting A's in this second degree program you'll increase your chances of finding an acceptance or two in there somewhere as well.

 

[Nasem]

I forgot to mention, Captain Fantastic is right, the average GPA for both MD and DO schools these days is about a 3.5-3.6 ish

and to be honest with you, raising a 2.7 to a 3.6 isn't even mathematically possible, you'll probebly need to take close to 150 to 200 credits of nothing but straight 4.0s and thats just..... insane

BUT, there are good news after all 🙂
You see, the application process for DO is different than that of MD schools, with the DO application, if you retake a course, they will only count your latest grade..... Example, 5 years ago, you took biology and obtained a D+, this coming august, you re-took the same biology course, but this time around, you obtained an A... they will only count the A and disregard the D+ when they calculate your GPA.... This is the SUREST way to up your GPA and make your self competitive at DO schools

Unfortunatly, retaking a couse for the MD application is nothing like this, they actually average out the 2 grades, so they will take the D+ and add A to it and divide by 2, giving you only a C

My suggestion to you is, don't do the 2nd bachelor thing, but instead do a 2-3 year post-bacc and try to get anywhere from 60 to 70 credits during those years..... Those 60 to 70 credits should be all your pre-med classes, some retakes from your initial undergrad degree (only retake classes that you obtained Ds in them, those really raise up your GPA when you replace them with As).... Also try to have anywhere from 3 to 5 classes of upper division sciences (things like biochemistry, microbiology, genetics, immunology, physiology, etc etc)

 

[lainey234]

You and I sound very similar Anne - except I have two boys 🙂
I too graduated with Psych degree with about a 2.6-2.7 gpa (my undergrad allowed retakes, AAMCAS does not)
I did 2 yrs of full time informal post bacc and managed to just barely get my cum gpa to 3.0. Yes, adcoms do see your post bacc as a separate entry from you overall gpa, but it is also added into your original undergrad, so in order to be considered you have to get the overall to a reasonable number.

You can check out my mdapps profile and follow my progress this cycle. It is a seriously uphill battle with gpa repair, but I believe it can pay off. GL to you and feel free to PM me if you have any questions!

 

[annbow]

Okay, I just got back from the golf course with my hubby. On our walk over, he was saying the same thing about getting the GPA up from 2.7 to 3.5 or 3.6 (I'll obviously have to work extra hard in the math 😉) - he was pretty tickled that I even thought it was possible 🙂

He's extremely supportive and for that I'm thankful! But, I have to say that you all have been so positive. I know this is a long and difficult road, but I'm willing to do what it takes.

I have been on other message boards just testing the waters with the game plan I have and the folks have been so completely negative and most told me don't even try...so thanks 🙂 You guys made my night - I was getting kinda down about the whole thing.

Look forward to getting to know you and traveling this journey together...

Thanks again!
Anne

 

[njbmd]

Hello...new to the board here and looking for some feedback.

I am beginning work on a 2nd Bachelors degree in August. I have a B.S. in Psychology (2.7 GPA). I am going to work towards a Biology degree.

My question is simply (or perhaps not) how the prior GPA plays into the 2nd B.S. and application process to md/do school. Is the Biology degree GPA completely separate and independent of any prior classes? I have no doubt the admissions committees will look at the 2.7, but if I'm able to do well in the biology and get above a 3.5 wouldn't you think that would carry more weight?

I'm not new to wanting to be a doctor, just new to the realization that it may still be possible (albeit a long, difficult road) - I just want my baby boy to be proud of me and that I didn't give up my dream - no matter what it takes.

Any feedback/insight would be appreciated...

Regards,
Anne

You should actually consider re-taking the courses that you did poorly in rather than pursuing a total new degree and then applying to osteopathic medical school. Osteopathic schools will substitute your retakes for your previous poor grades and thus, your uGPA will go up faster. You still will need to take the pre-med prerequisite courses if you do not have them and score well (nothing below B+) but you have a faster and better shot at DO rather than attempting "damage control" for allopathic schools.

I know of one person who completed a total second BS after being dismissed from the first program for having less than a 2.0 GPA a couple of semesters. This person when averaged together for allopathic came out to less than 3.0 but for osteopathic was well above 3.8 and was able to enter osteopathic medical school.

Yes, you can turn this around but DO makes more sense for you if you have completed more than 80 hours and are under a 3.3 GPA.

 

[annbow]

You should actually consider re-taking the courses that you did poorly in rather than pursuing a total new degree and then applying to osteopathic medical school. Osteopathic schools will substitute your retakes for your previous poor grades and thus, your uGPA will go up faster. You still will need to take the pre-med prerequisite courses if you do not have them and score well (nothing below B+) but you have a faster and better shot at DO rather than attempting "damage control" for allopathic schools.

I know of one person who completed a total second BS after being dismissed from the first program for having less than a 2.0 GPA a couple of semesters. This person when averaged together for allopathic came out to less than 3.0 but for osteopathic was well above 3.8 and was able to enter osteopathic medical school.

Yes, you can turn this around but DO makes more sense for you if you have completed more than 80 hours and are under a 3.3 GPA.

Thanks, that makes sense and there (in my mind) is nothing wrong with Osteopathic medicine - the more I read about it the more I agree with the underlying philosophy. I guess I just don't understand why some MD don't have much good to say about it - maybe because their admission requirements aren't quite as high - there is still a stigma attached to the DO initials for whatever reason...who knows.

A good friend of mine is chief resident at a children's hospital here and was very encouraging when I talked with him - but he just warned me about DO and said the good ones have to work so much harder than mediocre MD to get good residencies and such and I want to be an OB/GYN (which he didn't seem to think was undoable as a DO).

Is there a limit the the number they "substitute" or is it any sciences that you retake. I did alright in my GE (econ, english, etc.). I just feel so lost with what to do, My heart and mind keep telling me to focus DO and kick arse and go from there. Would you recommend retaking anything below a B or just retake everything (science related) to get an A?

I still fully anticipate applying to a couple of md programs here, we have 7 soon to be 8 and there are some where I still think even with a lower end GPA but killer MCAT I could be competitive.


Thanks so much for the input!

Regards,
Anne

 

[flip26]

Thanks, that makes sense and there (in my mind) is nothing wrong with Osteopathic medicine - the more I read about it the more I agree with the underlying philosophy. I guess I just don't understand why some MD don't have much good to say about it - maybe because their admission requirements aren't quite as high - there is still a stigma attached to the DO initials for whatever reason...who knows.

A good friend of mine is chief resident at a children's hospital here and was very encouraging when I talked with him - but he just warned me about DO and said the good ones have to work so much harder than mediocre MD to get good residencies and such and I want to be an OB/GYN (which he didn't seem to think was undoable as a DO).

Is there a limit the the number they "substitute" or is it any sciences that you retake. I did alright in my GE (econ, english, etc.). I just feel so lost with what to do, My heart and mind keep telling me to focus DO and kick arse and go from there. Would you recommend retaking anything below a B or just retake everything (science related) to get an A?

I still fully anticipate applying to a couple of md programs here, we have 7 soon to be 8 and there are some where I still think even with a lower end GPA but killer MCAT I could be competitive.


Thanks so much for the input!

Regards,
Anne

The replacement deal works for any courses, not just science. One general rule of thumb is to hold onto B+ or better, but anything less is fair game for retaking...good luck.

 

[gman33]

I still fully anticipate applying to a couple of md programs here, we have 7 soon to be 8 and there are some where I still think even with a lower end GPA but killer MCAT I could be competitive.

This is pretty much a myth. You need to do well in both. Based on your starting point, your overall GPA for MD schools will still be very low, even after 80 credits at 4.0.
No harm in trying, but I wouldn't think you would have much luck.
I'd make up my mind about whether you want to pursue MD or DO and plan accordingly. For MD you probably need 2-3 years UG at 4.0, a SMP and a really good MCAT.

In my mind all this is not worth it. I'd focus on the DO schools.
If you really want MD, just make sure you have a realistic plan and become a competitive applicant BEFORE you apply.

Also, make sure you figure out and correct what went wrong in your previous studies. Don't rush in. Start out with one class and make sure you get an A no matter how much work you need to do. Meet with your prof and use any tutoring services that are available. After this, take 2 classes at a time. Keep building up, make sure you get all A's. This is really important. Any bad grades at this point will further hurt your chances. We've all seen too many people rush in and really shot themselves in the foot.

 

[lainey234]

Thanks, that makes sense and there (in my mind) is nothing wrong with Osteopathic medicine - the more I read about it the more I agree with the underlying philosophy. I guess I just don't understand why some MD don't have much good to say about it - maybe because their admission requirements aren't quite as high - there is still a stigma attached to the DO initials for whatever reason...who knows.

A good friend of mine is chief resident at a children's hospital here and was very encouraging when I talked with him - but he just warned me about DO and said the good ones have to work so much harder than mediocre MD to get good residencies and such and I want to be an OB/GYN (which he didn't seem to think was undoable as a DO).

Is there a limit the the number they "substitute" or is it any sciences that you retake. I did alright in my GE (econ, english, etc.). I just feel so lost with what to do, My heart and mind keep telling me to focus DO and kick arse and go from there. Would you recommend retaking anything below a B or just retake everything (science related) to get an A?

I still fully anticipate applying to a couple of md programs here, we have 7 soon to be 8 and there are some where I still think even with a lower end GPA but killer MCAT I could be competitive.


Thanks so much for the input!

Regards,
Anne

I wouldn't be too quick to discount DO as an option regardless of what residency you would like to match into one day. With the grades you (we) have and the number of hours, you see it is pretty much impossible to get above a 3.1 for MD schools. Better than a 2.7, but not quite good enough most likely. I don't want to discourage you. On the contrary, I want to encourage you! Do some more research into DO schools. Here is a link to the recent DO match list thread - you may be surprised.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=506978

Do the best you can. Try your absolute hardest. But at the end of the day, set reasonable expectations. You and I will never get accepted to John Hopkins - but we can absolutely be happy, successful physicians one day - MDor DO. 😍

 

[p30doc]

I had a 2.8 in ~160+ credits from my 1st degree, I did the 2nd degree thing (an additional ~70+ credits) with a 3.9. It brought my cum to a 3.18. We shall see how this application season pans out for me. I am perfectly happy becoming a DO or MD. As mentioned by other posters don't rush into this if you aren't prepared to kick ass in ALL your classes. Good luck to you.

 

[annbow]

I wouldn't be too quick to discount DO as an option regardless of what residency you would like to match into one day. With the grades you (we) have and the number of hours, you see it is pretty much impossible to get above a 3.1 for MD schools. Better than a 2.7, but not quite good enough most likely. I don't want to discourage you. On the contrary, I want to encourage you! Do some more research into DO schools. Here is a link to the recent DO match list thread - you may be surprised.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=506978

Do the best you can. Try your absolute hardest. But at the end of the day, set reasonable expectations. You and I will never get accepted to John Hopkins - but we can absolutely be happy, successful physicians one day - MDor DO. 😍

I guess I didn't phrase that right...I think DO is actually a better fit for me at this point in my life. From every standpoint - philosophy, patient care, more holistic approach to medicine, schools tend to be more accepting of nontraditional students.

The comment about the MD programs was because of the conversation I had with my friend - he really seemed to think that if I got good MCAT and could get my GPA up to at least a 3 he thought I could be competitive at some of the lower tier MD programs here in TX.

I've looked into the DO schools and am confident that I can do this. I'm going to retake some classes that I didn't do well in this fall and then start into the prereq's and kick butt. Looking back over the requirements the only thing I really took beyond the Biology stuff was genetics and I got a D - so I'm going to spend this first year retaking GE's that I didn't do as well as could have, Algebra - maybe Zoology or Botany - well just have to sit down and take a look at the GPA - it's been 10 years since my first University and 5 years since I finished my degree 🙂 So things are a bit fuzzy.

I do appreciate your encouragement and I trust that we all will be great physicians some day!

Take care!

 

[annbow]

I had a 2.8 in ~160+ credits from my 1st degree, I did the 2nd degree thing (an additional ~70+ credits) with a 3.9. It brought my cum to a 3.18. We shall see how this application season pans out for me. I am perfectly happy becoming a DO or MD. As mentioned by other posters don't rush into this if you aren't prepared to kick ass in ALL your classes. Good luck to you.

This is definitely not something I'm rushing into - my family and future are at stake! 🙂

I am more mature and the motivation is there, as with many nontraditional students. I'm going to take it slowly and give myself time to do the best I can!

I totally missed on the tone of my message - in NO WAY did I mean to insinuate that DO was a 2nd choice for me - I just want to be a good doctor.

Best of luck to you in your journey!!!

Take care,
Anne

 

[thoffen]

Unfortunatly, retaking a couse for the MD application is nothing like this, they actually average out the 2 grades, so they will take the D+ and add A to it and divide by 2, giving you only a C

Not exactly. They count both the D+ and the A. It's not the same as dividing by two, because you get credit for 8 hours attempted (assuming a 4 hour class).

 

[NukeQuazar]

Not exactly. They count both the D+ and the A. It's not the same as dividing by two, because you get credit for 8 hours attempted (assuming a 4 hour class).

They see your overall GPA, which does include both grades, and they see that you did earn an A in the course when you retook it. So, although it's not as good as getting an A the first time, they do see the A, not just the B- average. Here is a great tool to see your GPA broken down, plus trend graphs, etc...

http://medschool.ucsf.edu/postbac/pdf/AMCAS%20GPA_Calculator%20Version%205%20Final.xls

and the manual:

http://medschool.ucsf.edu/postbac/pdf/AMCAS%20GPA%20Calculator%20Manual.pdf

There is no way around showing them every grade you have ever earned after high school, but they're not dumb, they look at the whole picture, in order to pick the best students.