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sflanigan23

sflanigan23

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Y'all this is a really stupid question but how do you think interviewers decision be affected by how I look? I have short hair and look p gay, so should I grow out my hair (I mean I can't even get a hair cut during quarantine any way) and present more "cis and heteronormative"? Like I wouldn't be upset at them for believing what they believe and I wouldn't let that affect me going to the school, but I was just wondering if you guys would think it would affect me getting in to a med school?

Sorry I know this is real dumb but I've just been wondering becuase my stats aren't the greatest, so the interview will be the think that makes me or breaks me
 
I would never expect a thread title "Looking Gay" to appear in pre-medical forums, but here we are. Interviewers don't really care about your appearance as long as you look professional. Well-groomed and suited. No flashy jewelry
 
I think Med schools, their students and faculty are among some of the most progressive people in America these days. And many of these schools are looking for people to fill their cohorts with a variety of lifestyles, ethnicity and backgrounds. With that said, they are mainly looking for candidates who are competent, real, caring and professional. I'd be more concerned with your words and ideas, than your haircut. If your appearance is what they remember you for, then that's more of a problem.
 
I met lots of folks at interviews that were not particularly fem presenting. I know I can't really comment on whether or not they were accepted but you definitely won't be totally alone in breaking heteronormativity. So I think you should obviously dress professionally but also be your authentic most confident self and you will do better in your interviews.


A sorta related side note, I had long hair that I loved and I cut it all off because I was afraid it was too feminine and unprofessional. It sucked. I looked in the mirror every morning before my interviews and didnt quite feel like myself. It screwed up my curl pattern, I didn't know how to do it the same way anymore. Its not a huge deal and obviously I was not worried about the same kind of bias as you, but it sucks to not feel like yourself the morning of a huge interview.
 
I am also a very obvious butch lesbian and wrote about being LGBT+ everywhere in my apps and it didnt seem to negatively affect me (5 As out of ~11 interviews)! I agree that it may even be more of a benefit. A lot of interviewers discussed the LGBT activism and leadership roles on my app and seemed really supportive!
And this was even interviewing in the south so you should be fine!
 
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sflanigan23 said:
Y'all this is a really stupid question but how do you think interviewers decision be affected by how I look? I have short hair and look p gay, so should I grow out my hair (I mean I can't even get a hair cut during quarantine any way) and present more "cis and heteronormative"? Like I wouldn't be upset at them for believing what they believe and I wouldn't let that affect me going to the school, but I was just wondering if you guys would think it would affect me getting in to a med school?

Sorry I know this is real dumb but I've just been wondering becuase my stats aren't the greatest, so the interview will be the think that makes me or breaks me
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0/10
 
At my vcu interview there was someone wearing purple lipstick but they were otherwise dressed very professional. I would say that was a bit risky especially in an MMI where it is so much about appearance but if it makes you happy **** IT
 
I was literally having a breakdown the morning of one of my interviews because I waited until that morning to remove my cartilage and tragus piercings and realized only then I wouldn't be able to get them out on my own.. Changed my whole look, hair down, all of that in attempt to cover those largely modest add-ons. Well, arrive to the interview, and lo and behold one of our interviewers was the most punked out, short pink hair, tattoo sleeve, legit rockstar doctor and I couldn't have rolled my eyes harder at myself for having such the meltdown only a couple hours earlier.

I'm also LGBT and got 3 A's out of 4 IIs this season. Wrote about it in diversity secondaries and one school even explicitly asked if I identified that way or not on the application. I think, like most have mentioned, LGBTQ is becoming URM and it'd be the opposite of my expectation that medical schools practice prejudice towards diversified applicants when that's probably the most read/talked/written sought-out experience that these schools go on about. Look professional, be yourself, don't worry about the internal biases anymore than we do on a regular basis = doesn't matter.
 
It won't hurt you. I had a classmate that wore a suit to her interview and got in; you can do that kind of thing as long as you are professional. There may be a small number of intolerant idiots out there as interviewers, but do you really want to go to a school like that?
 
OK, even though my Trolldar is screaming from the OP, it still IS a teaching moment.

At my own school, as mentioned above, as long as you're professional, we don't care if you look so gay you'd make RuPaul look like the Rock.

What I would want to see is that you have service to LGBT communities, and/or lots of HIV/AIDS service. Walk the walk and don't merely talk the talk. And avoid LUCOM, Loma Linda, and schools in Small Town rural America, even they're gay-friendly. The locals might not be, which is always my concern.
 
Goro said:
What I would want to see is that you have service to LGBT communities, and/or lots of HIV/AIDS service. Walk the walk and don't merely talk the talk.
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I think that it is unrealistic to expect every LGBT person to work in that community or to do HIV/AIDS service work. Some people may feel more drawn to working with the elderly and/or those with Alzheimers or cancer survivors. I don't believe we should place sexual and racial minorities in ghettos and act like we expect them to stay there among their own kind.
 
LizzyM said:
I think that it is unrealistic to expect every LGBT person to work in that community or to do HIV/AIDS service work. Some people may feel more drawn to working with the elderly and/or those with Alzheimers or cancer survivors. I don't believe we should place sexual and racial minorities in ghettos and act like we expect them to stay there among their own kind.
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yaaaas queen :dogfive:
 
LizzyM said:
I think that it is unrealistic to expect every LGBT person to work in that community or to do HIV/AIDS service work. Some people may feel more drawn to working with the elderly and/or those with Alzheimers or cancer survivors. I don't believe we should place sexual and racial minorities in ghettos and act like we expect them to stay there among their own kind.
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I recommend it because I worry that dishonest applicants will claim to be LGBT in order to take advantage of admissions policies that consider LGBT to be URM...in the same way that many people discover their Native American heritage upon applying to med school.
 
I'm a non-binary female, and I wore nice suit and my locked, natural hair to all my interviews. The only comments I got on my appearance were positive questions about where I got my suit and shoes and the length of my hair. All in all, I had a very successful interview season, and I think it helped me stand out (even amongst cis men and heteronormative women) because I spent 50 bucks to get the suit tailored and because it gave me a huge confidence boost throughout the long interview days.

Long story short, I'd say presenting in whatever way is professional and makes you feel the most confident is the way to go.
 
Goro said:
I recommend it because I worry that dishonest applicants will claim to be LGBT in order to take advantage of admissions policies that consider LGBT to be URM...in the same way that many people discover their Native American heritage upon applying to med school.
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Is writing about being LGBT in your application for reasons that might advantage you in admissions a bit different from choosing attire that's a bit queer and rocking it at your interview?
 
Goro said:
What I would want to see is that you have service to LGBT communities, and/or lots of HIV/AIDS service. Walk the walk and don't merely talk the talk.
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Please don't do that to people. I realize your concerns are about people lying regarding their sexual orientation, but this is a situation where it's best to just not go there and hope people are honest.

I'm a very masculine bisexual guy nobody would ever guess was bi, who has never been in a same-sex relationship, and any mention of the "walk the walk" thing is the #1 by far fastest way to piss off bi people. We're told our entire lives that we're not "walking the walk" enough by gay/lesbian people, and then told we're too gay by straight people. It's a terrible middle-ground of feeling forced to "pick a side" which leads to tons of insecurities and dating people you don't actually like just because they're the same gender instead of being genuine. Many gay and lesbian people also feel compelled/forced to "walk the walk" and end up going way overboard with it to act like the gayest gay in the history of gays to validate their existence to others instead of doing what they actually want to be doing.

There are so many LGBT people who choose not to interact with the stereotypical LGBT stuff at all, because they have other interests beyond just their sexual orientation. It would be really unfair to penalize people for not participating in stereotypical activities.
 
Paralegalities said:
Please don't do that to people. I realize your concerns are about people lying regarding their sexual orientation, but this is a situation where it's best to just not go there and hope people are honest.

I'm a very masculine bisexual guy nobody would ever guess was bi, who has never been in a same-sex relationship, and any mention of the "walk the walk" thing is the #1 by far fastest way to piss off bi people. We're told our entire lives that we're not "walking the walk" enough by gay/lesbian people, and then told we're too gay by straight people. It's a terrible middle-ground of feeling forced to "pick a side" which leads to tons of insecurities and dating people you don't actually like just because they're the same gender instead of being genuine. Many gay and lesbian people also feel compelled/forced to "walk the walk" and end up going way overboard with it to act like the gayest gay in the history of gays to validate their existence to others instead of doing what they actually want to be doing.

There are so many LGBT people who choose not to interact with the stereotypical LGBT stuff at all, because they have other interests beyond just their sexual orientation. It would be really unfair to penalize people for not participating in stereotypical activities.
Click to expand...

Thank you, I had something similar written out as well but I didn't feel like I had the right words to say it.


I didn't address being queer on my application at all because I present heteronormative and I am currently in a heteronormative relationship and I was afraid adcoms would have this mentality. Its also wasn't a huge part of my application or ECs in part because I was (still am sometimes) figuring myself out. I figured I was probably just being neurotic and that no one in a position of power could actually have this attitude but the thought of having my identity under attack like that in a medical school interview was extremely overwhelming. Goro's posts are incredibly disappointing and frankly quite troubling.

On the bright side, I am excited to come up in medicine with you all!
 
Paralegalities said:
Please don't do that to people. I realize your concerns are about people lying regarding their sexual orientation, but this is a situation where it's best to just not go there and hope people are honest.

I'm a very masculine bisexual guy nobody would ever guess was bi, who has never been in a same-sex relationship, and any mention of the "walk the walk" thing is the #1 by far fastest way to piss off bi people. We're told our entire lives that we're not "walking the walk" enough by gay/lesbian people, and then told we're too gay by straight people. It's a terrible middle-ground of feeling forced to "pick a side" which leads to tons of insecurities and dating people you don't actually like just because they're the same gender instead of being genuine. Many gay and lesbian people also feel compelled/forced to "walk the walk" and end up going way overboard with it to act like the gayest gay in the history of gays to validate their existence to others instead of doing what they actually want to be doing.

There are so many LGBT people who choose not to interact with the stereotypical LGBT stuff at all, because they have other interests beyond just their sexual orientation. It would be really unfair to penalize people for not participating in stereotypical activities.
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The wise @gyngyn, for one, can attest to the dishonesty of some applicants .

Because of those people, they are poisoning the well for everryone else. Even now, NA applicants had vest have a tribal card and/or service to NA communities. Ditto Hispanic applicants for their communities as well.
 
BlackMathMajor said:
Is writing about being LGBT in your application for reasons that might advantage you in admissions a bit different from choosing attire that's a bit queer and rocking it at your interview?
Click to expand...
Fascinating question! Frankly, somebody showing up "looking gay", doesn't cause a blip on my radar. Do you honestly think that some Adcom member will write "will add diversity because s/he's LBGT" without any mention of this in their app?

Some of you seen to be erroneously thinking that I apply my hopes for candidates as a weapon in my interview decisions at my school. I don't do this, but I do know Adcoms who do, for reasons as mentioned above. Unless some of you think that it's OK to ignore marginalized communities?

I just thought of this...flipping things around....even a homophobic interviewer can be negated by the rest of the Adcom.

I have seen some candidates out themselves in their app and I wonder "why are you sharing this?" because they give zero context. It's almost as if they're either making a statement rather than explaining who they are, or more perniciously, using the app as some form of catharsis. This is just my take on a few experiences. Surprisingly, there are more instances of the latter than you would think.
 
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Your situation is not unlike those who are a different skin color or religion from the general population: there may unfortunately be some inherent or subconscious bias against it. This is an unfortunate part of being human, whether we consciously have this agenda or subconsciously form a stereotype.

But, speaking as an ORM Caucasian male, I also think the reverse is unfortunate as well; an inherent/outward bias where certain applicants get special treatment based on similar circumstances (ethnicity, religion, sexuality, etc.)

If it were a perfect world, everyone would get the same/equal chance.
 
LizzyM said:
I don't believe we should place sexual and racial minorities in ghettos and act like we expect them to stay there among their own kind.
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I also don't think it's appropriate to list sexuality ANYWHERE near a professional application, unless it has a direct relationship to their pursuit of medicine but people do it all the time for brownie points. While I don't fully agree with what goro said, at least it shows some context as to why their sexuality is on a professional application.
 
DrStephennmnm said:
I also don't think it's appropriate to list sexuality ANYWHERE near a professional application, unless it has a direct relationship to their pursuit of medicine but people do it all the time for brownie points. While I don't fully agree with what goro said, at least it shows some context as to why their sexuality is on a professional application.
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If medical school applications were just a CV, I might agree, but the primary and secondaries ask us much more than what professional experiences we've had that led us to medicine. They ask us to talk about things that have shaped us, our families and upbringings, our nationalities, etc. Gender and sexuality are inherently part of that for many people, even those who haven't directly chosen to serve in LGBT community settings.
 
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Won’t impact you.

For every biased interviewer that might be slightly biased against LGBT interviewees there are two that consider you URM and a diverse addition to the class.

Use it to your benefit.


DrStephennmnm said:
I also don't think it's appropriate to list sexuality ANYWHERE near a professional application, unless it has a direct relationship to their pursuit of medicine but people do it all the time for brownie points. While I don't fully agree with what goro said, at least it shows some context as to why their sexuality is on a professional application.
Click to expand...

Just as diversifying racial representation in medicine improves patient outcomes and leads to graduating physicians be more likely to start a practice in the community they represent, LGBT+ physicians are more likely to help with health issues in their specific community that are often overlooked.
 
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DrStephennmnm said:
I also don't think it's appropriate to list sexuality ANYWHERE near a professional application, unless it has a direct relationship to their pursuit of medicine but people do it all the time for brownie points. While I don't fully agree with what goro said, at least it shows some context as to why their sexuality is on a professional application.
Click to expand...

I know of a school that specifically asks if you’re a member of the LGBTQ population on their secondary...it’s not inappropriate and it’s not about getting brownie points. It’s about making sure certain populations are properly represented in medicine... things like that matter. If you’re not part of a minority it might not make sense, but it does make an impact on patient care.
 
Goro said:
I recommend it because I worry that dishonest applicants will claim to be LGBT in order to take advantage of admissions policies that consider LGBT to be URM...in the same way that many people discover their Native American heritage upon applying to med school.
Click to expand...

A happy medium should be applied via adcom's best judgment.. Like you mentioned in another post, some people will just say "I'm gay" in their apps or even in person without any context - if you read/hear that and still think "why bring this up?" then best chances that person is attempting to use that as some sort of leverage (whether imp/explicitly). On the other hand, if someone brings that up with the context of it shaping who they are or facing XYZ struggles, chances are, that person simply considers their identity to answer a formative-type question.

I'm with the crowd here when I say to expect LGBT folk to serve LGBT populations simply because they're LGBT is an unfortunate backwards step. I thought we were steering towards identity not shaping expectations of people nor their paths...

Personally, I have avoided LGBT-directed activities because I most often don't relate to a lot of the people involved with those sorts of things. Additionally, I don't feel the need to wear my identity on my resume because it is largely irrelevant to my current life aside from the moments of "meet my girlfriend". If I felt forced to work in immersive LGBT environments, I would've likely kept myself in the closet due to the vast differences I find between myself and the typical LGBTer and the intense acknowledgement of your identity required on a very explicit and regular basis when involved in those groups.

That is the problem with expecting that type of service from people that share a single identity: it expects that identity to be the single bridge that gaps all the divergent differences between the people that share it. We don't expect (at least I sincerely hope not) people of other URM groups (race, socioeconomic, etc.) to unilaterally serve in those URM-specific groups as means of validation, so why is it different for LGBT..
 
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I agree with the stay professional advice above. I would add that if a school has shown negative bias because you seem gay, you probably wouldn't want to their school knowing the people with strong biases can be part of the admissions process.
 
I do have to say that there is some measure of value just being LGBT in medicine outside of being actively involved in LGBT service. As a scribe I had multiple LGBT patients try to address their (sexual or OB/GYN) complaints to me instead of the physician which was super awkward but showed how much more comfortable patients from underserved backgrounds feel with providers who are similar to them (which also goes for other URMs).

I've also seen healthcare providers misgender patients and/or make disparaging remarks towards LGBT patients so I think it's a pretty worthwhile endeavor to recruit LGBT physicians.
 
Seems like pretty much everyone on the thread is saying to rock the short hair...and that wearing gender-nonconforming or queer attire is different from writing about being queer on your application. Also, people (including adcoms) are saying that on net it will be neutral or positive. I'd wear the short hair, in your shoes. It will make you memorable.
 
well y'all this blew up.

but sorry for the long reply I j didn't realize how many people replied until now

Goro said:
OK, even though my Trolldar is screaming from the OP, it still IS a teaching moment.
Click to expand...

I'm just confused on way Goro thinks I'm trolling and trying to exploit my gayness as a way to be URM.. Like I made this post because I was genuinely concerned on how this could affect my admissions. If I were trying to get brownie points then why would I ask if I needed to fake heteronormativity?

Goro said:
Fascinating question! Frankly, somebody showing up "looking gay", doesn't cause a blip on my radar. Do you honestly think that some Adcom member will write "will add diversity because s/he's LBGT" without any mention of this in their app?
Click to expand...

And no, it's not about them writing it down and keeping it in a file or something to use against me, I am worried about the inherit bias. Like someone will see me and in there mind and not want to admit me or whatever because of how they see the stereotypes, but use other excuses to shut me down. I wasn't planning on writing about it or even mentioning it. And I sure as hell wasn't gonna wear a rainbow flag as a cape to the interview, I was just wondering how adcoms making assumptions about me could negatively affect my admissions.

Like I'm not looking for a crutch to get in, I just don't know how the whole interview process works and how they are trying to mitigate subconscious biases and what not. Every one talks about how being black or hispanic or native can be used as an advantage but no one talks about other "minorities" so how am I supposed to know if it would help me or hurt me?

Goro said:
What I would want to see is that you have service to LGBT communities, and/or lots of HIV/AIDS service. Walk the walk and don't merely talk the talk.
Click to expand...

and dude, this is kind of offensive. Like are you gonna take away my gay card if I don't show how I'm helping this LGBT community? I am not defined by my sexuality, it is just a part of me.
You wouldn't invalidate a black person for not working with black people and you wouldn't invalid a woman for not working at a womans clinic so expecting me to do the same just because there are people who fake it to get a leg up is kinda BS[/QUOTE]
 
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As a non-gender conforming lesbian I have this same worry all the time. I've found that the horrible discomfort I feel while trying to fit in the heternormative box ends up being more damaging. Just be yourself. Be comfortable in your own skin and you'll make a better impression.

Funny story: on Christmas I put on one of my niece's clip on princess earrings, and I somehow ended up looking like a dude with costume jewelry on. It was hilarious, and also proof that I can not hide my genderbending self.

Sent from my SM-N975U using SDN mobile
 
sflanigan23 said:
well y'all this blew up.

...
Click to expand...
I think Goro probably skimmed your initial post and got the sense that you were asking whether looking gay would be helpful when you were really asking whether it would hurt you at your interview 😛
 
sflanigan23 said:
and dude, this is kind of offensive. Like are you gonna take away my gay card if I don't show how I'm helping this LGBT community? I am not defined by my sexuality, it is just a part of me.
You wouldn't invalidate a black person for not working with black people and you wouldn't invalid a woman for not working at a womans clinic so expecting me to do the same just because there are people who fake it to get a leg up is kinda BS
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[/QUOTE]
Wow, you're just not getting it. Not good for a potential med school applicant.

So let's repeat: The problem is that dishonest candidates have muddied the water by claiming to be gay in the hopes of getting a URM-like boost.

To that end, IMHO, it will bode better for you to walk the walk. This type of rigor is always being applied to people who magically discover NA or Hispanic heritage upon application to medical school. I have seen people int he latter group get asked questions in Spanish at the start of an interview, and it's why I always ask people posting in these fora for the former if they have a tribal card or evidence of service to NA communities.

Your argument is bold is disingenuous.

As you going loose cannon (which is troll-like behavior, which justified my trolldar app), I'm going to model good SDN behavior and place you on Ignore. You'll feel some slight pressure between the eyes.
 
baksam13 said:
As a non-gender conforming lesbian I have this same worry all the time. I've found that the horrible discomfort I feel while trying to fit in the heternormative box ends up being more damaging. Just be yourself. Be comfortable in your own skin and you'll make a better impression.

Sent from my SM-N975U using SDN mobile
Click to expand...
Baksam, this wouldn't harm you at my school. As you yourself said, you need to be comfortable in your own skin. Reiterating what Matt pointed out, just be professional.
 
Katniss Everdeen said:
@Goro I've valued you wisdom and advice for years and will continue to do so, but I vehemently disagree with you here 🙂
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, goro is the adcom, so his opinion is the one that means more wrt admissions. Whether it's right or not, you can't tell if someone is actually gay just by looking at them like you can tell if someone is black.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Unfortunately, goro is the adcom, so his opinion is the one that means more wrt admissions. Whether it's right or not, you can't tell if someone is actually gay just by looking at them like you can tell if someone is black.
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The original question in the thread indicates that there are ways that people express themselves that can be read as gay. LizzyM is also an adcom and expressed an opinion that differs from Goro's.
 
Well, that's disappointing - implying that someone is too dumb for medical school because they disagree with you?
I'm glad all of our gatekeepers aren't like that. Thankfully he's only 1 adcom.

No one should feel forced to "prove" that they're a member of a minority group via documented acts of service and engagement with that group. That's an unfair burden to place on someone who's already othered. Will some people who aren't actually LGBTQ try to claim that identity as a way to boost their application? Probably. Is it worth demanding "evidence" to try to weed those people out? No.

Evidence of engagement with LGBTQ communities simply isn't a good indicator of whether someone is actually LGBTQ or not - it has poor sensitivity & specificity. In evidence based medicine, we don't use tests like that - because they don't answer the question they're supposed to.
 
PapayaJambalaya said:
The original question in the thread indicates that there are ways that people express themselves that can be read as gay. LizzyM is also an adcom and expressed an opinion that differs from Goro's.
Click to expand...

Threads evolve, and as long as they're relatively on topic, that can be a good thing. Goro is saying that he looks for involvement in the community because people will try to fake it. You can pretend to be gay, and no one will be able to tell if you're lying at an interview. But he certainly didn't say anywhere that being gay will hurt you. In fact he said that as long as you are dressed professionally, "looking gay" will not hurt you at his school.

And of course different adcoms will have different opinions. But an adcom here has that opinion, which means some of them do, whether you like it or not.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Threads evolve, and as long as they're relatively on topic, that can be a good thing. Goro is saying that he looks for involvement in the community because people will try to fake it. You can pretend to be gay, and no one will be able to tell if you're lying at an interview. But he certainly didn't say anywhere that being gay will hurt you. In fact he said that as long as you are dressed professionally, "looking gay" will not hurt you at his school.

And of course different adcoms will have different opinions. But an adcom here has that opinion, which means some of them do, whether you like it or not.
Click to expand...
I was mentioning the OP as counter-evidence to your assertion that you can't tell someone is gay just by looking at them.

And I know that adcoms will have differing opinions, but I thought you were saying that Goro's opinion was more valuable than those who disagree with him because he is an adcom. It seems as though two adcoms have weighed in and the vote is split, making neither opinion more valuable.
 
Fidelio17 said:
Well, that's disappointing - implying that someone is too dumb for medical school because they disagree with you?
I'm glad all of our gatekeepers aren't like that. Thankfully he's only 1 adcom.

No one should feel forced to "prove" that they're a member of a minority group via documented acts of service and engagement with that group. That's an unfair burden to place on someone who's already othered. Will some people who aren't actually LGBTQ try to claim that identity as a way to boost their application? Probably. Is it worth demanding "evidence" to try to weed those people out? No.

Evidence of engagement with LGBTQ communities simply isn't a good indicator of whether someone is actually LGBTQ or not - it has poor sensitivity & specificity. In evidence based medicine, we don't use tests like that - because they don't answer the question they're supposed to.
Click to expand...
Not that he disagreed with me but most importantly, that he didn't understand what I wrote.
 
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