Lose the nose piercing?
Started by jeanneson
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i'm with DrMom 110%. (in fact, she and i have posted on this same subject for the past 3+ years, i believe.)
i have 8 small hoops in my ears and a small diamond stud in my nose. i never had a problem with it on any single one of my rotations. no attending or resident ever told me to take it out. and if they disliked it, well it sure didn't show up in my clinical evals. i dress professionally, act professionally, am clean and well-groomed.
and if my patients don't like it, well i guess they're free to find another doctor. i've gotten no less than 25 comments from patients asking me how long i've had it, where i got it done, if it hurt, do i like it, they've considered getting one (this from a 36 year old mother of 4,) their daughter/son has one, they like the sparkle .... etc etc etc. and if they go home and tell cousin Earl and aunt Francis about this hippy doctor they had with a stud in her nose who was shaming the hallowed medical profession ... oh well. times change.
*shrug*
i have 8 small hoops in my ears and a small diamond stud in my nose. i never had a problem with it on any single one of my rotations. no attending or resident ever told me to take it out. and if they disliked it, well it sure didn't show up in my clinical evals. i dress professionally, act professionally, am clean and well-groomed.
and if my patients don't like it, well i guess they're free to find another doctor. i've gotten no less than 25 comments from patients asking me how long i've had it, where i got it done, if it hurt, do i like it, they've considered getting one (this from a 36 year old mother of 4,) their daughter/son has one, they like the sparkle .... etc etc etc. and if they go home and tell cousin Earl and aunt Francis about this hippy doctor they had with a stud in her nose who was shaming the hallowed medical profession ... oh well. times change.
*shrug*
holy h3ll how many times did i hit that button?
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nothing to see here
CoverMe said:
Many will not understand this. But its just not the field for extra glitz. Consider entertainment.
I have an eyebrow piericing that I thought might be an issue with the school but apparently they dont care. Usually I remember to take it out for clinic days. Sometimes I dont. I've yet to have a doctor or patient make any negative comments about it. I've had a few teachers tell me they really like it.jeanneson said:
GoodMonkey said:
If you've gotten 25 comments that were positive and to your face, I can almost guarantee you've gotten twice that number of not so positive comments from different people when you are not within earshot. Bottom line is that if your school/hospital is okay with it, that's fine, but an awful lot more places won't be, and that is reflective of the profession at large.
And no, times don't change -- or at least won't for a really long time --with the aging of the patient base, most physicians (other than pediatricians) will be spending a disproportionate time working with this same generation of elderly, and not the young, hip, with-it crowd, for the foreseable future.
Law2Doc said:
Last I checked you weren't required to take any oath to practice medicine. You may chose to takes said oath but it is not a requirement. Simply calling something a profession because a group of people want to feel special and establish some internal code of ethics doesn't obligate one to follow it. The only duty I have is to act in a manner that provides the best healthcare possible for my patients. And I would hardly call a nose ring unprofessional. Many South Asian cultures wear noserings for culturally significant reasons, how is it any different if someone is part of the tatoo/piercing culture in America? You're view is completely unfounded. As I said who cares what your patients think about your piercing? If you feel it is inhibiting your work, or unhealthy, or causing you problems feel free to remove it, but if not then don't. You are arguing that it is viewed as unprofessional, but so what? I am not disagreeing with the emperical observation that many people will perhaps find it as such. This is not grounds to remove it however. As I said before, life really is too short to be worried about what people think about you due to their culturally indoctrinated views.
I think the whole piercing thing is kind of variable. While it SHOULD be alright in all specialities if you specialize in geriatrics and have anything outside of cultural type stuff it'd probably be a wise idea to leave it out...at least until that generation dies off. Sick and somewhat mean...but realistic as well. The further on we go the patients are going to change over to an era where it has become the norm. Also a factor is region to consider this....If you are in a small conservative midwest town then it is also probably not a wise idea to go about with some of that stuff. You can usually get away with it, but there will always be those situations. I have always been taught the dress for success kind of stuff but I have nothing against the stuff..in fact I am the only one of my friends that doesn't have tats or piercings. I'd love to wear my Jeans and sweatshirts all the time, and I know great doctors that do......but there has always seemed to be an unspoken stigma against those guys....Bottom line is...it is generally easier to remove stuff ..especially some of the crazier stuff and avoid problems than to leave it in. You can always get stuff done again later if you want but while trying to establish a career try to stay away from stupid little things that can change perceptions. Then as soon as your golden walk in with that mesh shirt covered in tats with your nipples pierced and a forked tounge....heck if your rads or path or whatever else that is cave dwelling maybe it'd be a nice little attraction. (Side note I like rads and would kind of enjoy a colleague that would dress like that I think...never boring)
Alexander Pink said:
I wasn't the one who decided medicine was a profession, it was decided long before my time. You may want to take that up with someone in charge, but that ship has sailed long before you were born. Good luck with that.
But yes, actually, those members of a career who create an internal code of ethics and rules, and who also have control of the schools and the licensure can absolutely obligate anyone else who wants in their path to follow those rules. That's true in medicine, law and any other established profession.
Law2Doc said:
But we aren't debating whether or not the institution has the ability to make you remove any piercings. We are simply discussing whether the OP should remove the piercing. You are skirting the issue. Yes of course they could ask you to remove it as a representative of their institution, or you could decide to move it due to feelings that it inhibited your performance or evaluations, or because you were uncomfortable with it, or whatever, but none of these are the point of the thread. The OP already knows that these are options, and posted to get our opinion on whether or not she should remove it. I am arguing that she should not because she obviously likes the piercing and that people ought not change their behavior or dress simply to appease other people. A profession cannot obligate one to do anything, only people who are members of institutions can do that. Naturally you can argue that by deciding to join the "profession" of medicine I have either tacitly or expressly consented ot its rules, but that is another argument and one that I feel would be fruitless. In any case no point debating this issue further. I gave the OP my opinion and you gave yours. I have always and will always act as I am, and I wouldn't sacrifice that intergrity for anyone. I have no piercings or tatoos, but that is by my choice. If I so desired to get a big swastika tattood on my forhead or to die my hair pink (again) I would do so and that would be my prerogative.
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Alexander Pink said:
This is just a flat out wrong statement. Professions have rules and can impose sanctions.
Law2Doc said:
True, but those usually related to ethical, behavior, and knowledge-based standards. I don't remember anything in the Hippocratic Oath relating to how we dress. We do, of course, have an obligation as medical professionals to be hygienic, treat people kindly, be knowledgeable in our specialty, etc.
Here's the thing. Patients can be bothered by all kinds of personal traits of their physicians, right or wrong. I've heard patients complain about physicians'/students' genders, race, accents, age, etc...things that we have no control over and that don't affect our ability to provide quality care.
No matter what we look like, there are always going to be a small proportion of these people. What the vast majority of patients are concerned about is getting quality care from decent people...that is all.
DrMom said:
I was addressing the more significant side issue of Dr. Pink that he didn't think he was obligating himself to any requirements or to abide by any practices by virtue of entering a profession, which is inaccurate.
Most of the professional dress issues tend not to be written in other than med school handbooks and hospital policies. But not all obligations and expectations of a profession or other professionals will be written down. More likely dress code type issues tend to just form a perception of your level of professionalism on others. This, in and of itself, may have career implications.
Law2Doc said:
No, professional institutions can impose sanctions, atleast officially, unless you mean a general dislike for your coleague, etc. is a sanction. You chose to participate in a profession which may or may not have such institutional ties. You are ascribing attributes where none belong. A profession is merely an occupation or career such as law, medicine, or engineering, that requires considerable training and specialized study, or the body of qualified persons in an occupation or field (dictionary.com). You can't use profession as a legal entity in general, only specific entities exist in the profession. Now you can say a professional body has sanction rights, but in medicine you are not required to be a member of any such body, and if you chose to be then you are accepting their particular set of guidlines (you are obviously part of the governing body [profesisonal body] that is assigned to deal with licensing issues, but it is clear that dress does not fall under the ethical provisions of this body). Not everyone who is a doctor, or lawyer, or professor, etc. is required under the duress of sanctions to follow some particular set of ethics or rules above and beyond those of taking care of patients and doing what is in their best interest. There is only legal culpability to institutions and governing bodies, not to the "profession" of medicine. The only argument you can make is that we have consented to abide by said ethical codes of conducts by entering into this "profession", and that dress is a part of said contract. Thus we would have some measure of ethical culpability to dress a certain way. I think this argument will fail, but again you are skirting the issue by trying to make a "profession" mean more than what it is, which is just an ad hoc construction of individuals sharing some facet of their lives.
Law2Doc said:
Well, I think that most, if not all, of us agree that we should meet the attire standards of our institution.
There are plenty of jobs out there. If someone won't hire me simply because I have a small nose ring, then I most likely wouldn't be happy working for them anyways.
Again, the important professional standards have to do with ethics, behavior, knowledge base, etc. I used to do physician credentialling and I never encountered a situation where a physician was reprimanded in any way for their attire. They were, however, issues with sexual misconduct, drug/EtOH addiction, failure to pass professional boards or otherwise function as a qualified physician, etc.
This is all making a mountain out of a molehill. It really is a non-issue in the real world. Those of us who actually wear nose rings--the ones talking from experience--are on here saying we've not had any problems. Just because some of you think it should be an issue doesn't mean that it is.
Once again, I'm not going to convince you that I've not had any problems due to my nose ring and you're not going to convince me that I've been oblivious to all of the disruption my nose ring has caused. The OP will make their own decision.
Alexander Pink said:
I think we need to separate your comments into two areas (1) that there are no governing bodies outside of the hospital or school you are in who are going to regulate dress code, (what I would define as professional "expectations", things that don't rise to the level of a rule) in which I totally agree with you, and
(2) the notion that the "profession" of medicine, law etc does not have a set of professional standards, ethics and requirements, which you are obligated to follow, which is your statement I disagree with and think it outright wrong. You try to separate out the concept of profession from the legal body, but it isn't that severable. You are going to be subject to rules, regulations, ethics of various Offices/Departments/Divisions of Professional Regulation, Boards of Medicine, Offices of Professional Discipline -- creatures of the profession which play its self policing role. Most of the legislation of these bodies comes from the AMA and other similar organizations, which you needn't join, but will have a huge effect on your professional life. At any rate there are rules, requirements, regulations, ethical policies which you are stuck with if you want to enter this profession. You can lobby various organizations to try and change them, but you can't ignore them.
yeah, on a med school interview I saw two different students walking around with eyebrow rings...i think that would be considered more unprofessional and noticeable than a small nose stud, and they were obviously fine...it just depends on where you're going, i guess
besides, times are a-changing--be a leader 😉
besides, times are a-changing--be a leader 😉
DrMom said:
Exactly. While I'll agree that being a part of a certain profession might entail more than just having a job, I don't think there's any clear mandate beyond those big issues -- knowledge, ethics, competence, etc. They don't look at how you dress when determing whether or not to give or take away your medical license.
from my avatar you can see i have alot of ink on me. i used to have 14 piercings on my head, but when i started karate i had to take them out *sad face* i wanted to keep my tongue ring, but it just became too much of a problem to keep it in.
as long as noone has a problem with it, keep it. if it becomes an issue then lose it. let your excellent clinical skills show how much of a professional you are.
i am not of course advocating for uber tight closes, short skirts and plenty of clevage (unless its a friday night and...well thats another story).
as long as noone has a problem with it, keep it. if it becomes an issue then lose it. let your excellent clinical skills show how much of a professional you are.
i am not of course advocating for uber tight closes, short skirts and plenty of clevage (unless its a friday night and...well thats another story).
Law2Doc said:
times DO change. 🙂 hell, we've got *gasp* women! and minorities! practicing medicine. i've even seen a doctor or two with - oh no! what shame! - a tattoo. some people are practicing medicine .... wait for it ... wait for it .... part time because of the increasing recognition that physicians are just doing their jobs, too, and some may even want a life outside of medicine.
and if they don't like it and want to go around badmouthing me for something as benign as jewelry, oh well. they can see a new doctor. that's their choice. if a supervisor asks me to take it out, then that's a different story - that'd be following the rules of whoever hires me. if the expressly written rule is there, i'll follow it. but in the times with many SE asian women practicing medicine, for whom the nosering may be cultural, i don't see the banning of that happening anytime soon. butcha never know.
there are better things to get worked up over. 🙂
bigfrank said:
*snort*
i crawl out from under a rock and it's like i can't even remember how to post correctly.
DrMom said:
👍 👍
Well before this thread becomes an angry flame battle, I just want to add that IMHO, I would probably prefer not to do or wear something that may have a strong chance of placing me in a negative light with supervisors, administrators, patients, etc. unless I really felt truly strong about it. In the case of a nosering, if I felt having one could have negative consequences, I wouldn't wear one. Why risk someone taking exception and taking action behind my back? At the same time, if I felt strongly enough about my nosering to keep it despite it perhaps having negative consequences, I'd keep it. I suppose it all depends on what your values and beliefs are on the topic. Like DrMom said, it'll be up to the OP to decide for herself on whether keeping the nosering is an acceptable risk for her. I think this thread has already answered the topic; there's really no need to continue debating it further as it seems to be slowly morphing into a social/political debate with some fairly visible lines being drawn. 🙂
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Dimoak said:
I guess you have to pick your battles, and the question becomes whether this is really the kind of thing you really want to draw your battle lines around. Like I suggested on the first page, probably better to move the piercings below the clothing if you really need to express yourself.
Law2Doc said:
heh heh ... moving beneath the clothing is always a good move. 😀
HA! oh, wow, that's funny
you can wear it for your pre-clinical years. I'd drop it 3rd/4th year. Its just not worth it--its not going to score you points with anyone, but it'll piss some of the older docs off...and not all of them will tell you this, they'll just quietly and subtly dislike it.
Anyway, Risk/Benifit= infinity
so lose it in your clinical years. Good luck and congrats on getting in!
Anyway, Risk/Benifit= infinity
so lose it in your clinical years. Good luck and congrats on getting in!
I interviewed for medical school in 1997 with my nose ring and had no problem. I still wear a small stud today (as an attending) and have had no complaints. My patients who do feel the need to comment always think it is "cool" that their doctor has a nose ring. Just keep it small and simple.
I have a tiny nose stud and I'm mixed on this issue. I currently work as an elderly caregiver. I was afraid that the seniors I take care of might be put off by it, but none of them have mentioned it, except to say they liked it. My very conservative grandma likes it too. Also, other caregivers and employees of senior care facilities have all sorts of less discreet piercings, but the seniors appear to love these people and care more about their personalities.
That said, I assumed that for med school interviews and school, I would need to take out my piercing. I'm not going to go through all of my pre-med schooling and mcats and risk getting turned away because of a piece of metal. I figured I will put it back in at nights after classes, if I really want to keep it. And there are discreet plugs to keep the hole open when the jewelry is out.
As for wearing it in my own practice, I'll see how I feel about it when the time comes. I plan to be an amazing doctor who really listens and is thorough. If I feel like I want to have the piercing at that time and a patient is disgusted enough by it to choose another doc, they are welcome to do so.
That said, I assumed that for med school interviews and school, I would need to take out my piercing. I'm not going to go through all of my pre-med schooling and mcats and risk getting turned away because of a piece of metal. I figured I will put it back in at nights after classes, if I really want to keep it. And there are discreet plugs to keep the hole open when the jewelry is out.
As for wearing it in my own practice, I'll see how I feel about it when the time comes. I plan to be an amazing doctor who really listens and is thorough. If I feel like I want to have the piercing at that time and a patient is disgusted enough by it to choose another doc, they are welcome to do so.
If I had a nose stud and was a pre-med, I'd take it out during med school interviews and put it back in once I started. Many of my female classmates and attendings (mostly of Indian, Sri Lankan, African American, etc. heritages) have small nose piercings. It's a cultural thing and as such, should be respected.
Thats a can of worms you dont want opened.
At some point you have to offend somebody and not respect their "culture".
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In some Indian cultures for women having a nose ring is a sign of being married. Just saying. Also the stud looks very pretty in some people. As long as it's not obnoxious (like giant with a skull on it) and is discreet it's probably okay, I know a few people who wear them. This bigfrank guy is full of crap as discreet jewelry does not constitute improper attire.
That being said I wouldn't wear it immediately... gauge your attending, see what they're willing to tolerate, etc.
Also I realize this thread is four years old... just giving my two cents, lol
That being said I wouldn't wear it immediately... gauge your attending, see what they're willing to tolerate, etc.
Also I realize this thread is four years old... just giving my two cents, lol
almost half of the girls in my class have noserings--i was shocked when i got here and realized it. I was worried i'd have to get rid of mine, but some of my professors and attendings i've worked with wear them as well. Not a hoop, or a big ornate one, but the small ones you've described are becoming so common it's almost like having your ears pierced-- you wouldn't wear giant earrings you'd wear to a club, but something nice and small like a little diamond stud you described is definitely acceptable.
These nose studs look like little daimond crusted blackheads. Every time I see one I just want to brush it off.
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