losing hope- need encouragement/advice!!

[dk33]

this is my second time applying, I was rejected from all 18 of my schools last year. (interviewed and waitlisted at one, havent heard from them this cycle).

I have since retaken the mcat (improved my score from 26 to 29 - or 30, if they take the best of the score from either of my tests), finished an NIH research fellwship, coauthored a third paper, had a baby, moved, started a new job doing research (had to move for my husbands job), got involved with some new volunteer organizations....I dont know what else to do. I applied late last year (secondaries werent in till november), and this year, I was complete everywhere by the first week in august, but I still havent heard from most schools - only one interview invite.

I created an MDAPPS profile, im number 16390 (http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?myid=16390).
Anyone care to comment, or give me hope? I know my numbers arent amazing (29/30 MCAT, 3.6 GPA), but theyre not terrible either, and I am so much more than just the numbers. Im not just another cocky premed, I took some time off, did research at one of the top insitutions in the world, started a family, was really really humbled by my first try at the MCAT and my first try at applying to medical school....my extracurriculars are not just your "average" run of the mill - hospital volunteer and such, ive done so much more. So what is the hold up?? can anyone with similar stories give me hope? or anyone with not similar stories? I dont want to have to apply a third time but its starting to look like Ill have to.

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[beachblonde]

Looking at your mdapps, I could see the problem immediately: the schools you applied to. While your ECs are fabulous, your GPA is ok, and your MCAT is borderline; these don't really add up to a Columbia or Cornell acceptance (they could, but realistically....not so much). By staying in NYC you are backing yourself into a very tight corner, because the majority of the schools in Manhatten are uber-competitive to get into. I know that you have a special situation, given that you have a family and don't want to or simply cannot move, but man, picking NYC as your place to settle down is not making it easy on yourself.

It's a little late to be adding MD schools, but have you thought about sending in the aacomas app to Touro-NY and NYCOM? I realize that the DO option may not be your first choice, but it could give you some options come May. Just a thought.

Good luck-you have ridiculously stellar ECs. Hopefully somebody will take notice!

 

[dk33]

thanks for your quick response. I know, NY is tough, but like you said, my situation is unique. Thats where my husbands family lives, and wall street is wall street, and with the financial world in upheaval right now - finding a job as an analyst was tough enough. finding a job for a top firm in a sattelite office would have been even tougher. I know columbia is a joke, as is cornell. they were shots in the dark, and like i said, id waste that much $ in vegas, so why not waste a couple hundred bucks applying. total shot in the dark. I guess I'm hoping for the SUNYs, NYMC, or Einstein (I went to Yeshiva for undergrad, so maybe some preferential treatment there?).

I thought about DO school, and of course, my premed advisor told me straight-out, I wont get into MD school, I should either go to school somewhere in Europe, or apply to DO schools. But after giving it much thought, based on what I want to do with my medical degree after school (subspecializing + academic medicine - no private practice or family medicine type things for me) Ive decided its just not for me. I did think about it, and unlike other people on this site, Im not "offended" or "insulted" by the suggestion - I have quite a few friends in DO school, and Im a pretty open-minded person, and want more than anything to be a physician, but I dont think it fits my goals and I would be afraid of running into problems with residencies/fellowships, unless I graduate top top of my class, and blow them away on the boards. there would be enough pressure as an MD to do so, I dont want to have to go above and beyond that and have to bend over backwards.

 

[Gut Shot]

this is my second time applying, I was rejected from all 18 of my schools last year. (interviewed and waitlisted at one, havent heard from them this cycle).

I notice that the number of schools you applied to actually went down this time around. If a third go is necessary, you need to cast a wider net. I understand that work and family makes it difficult to consider moving wherever necessary, but if you want to improve your odds it's one of the few short-term options you have.

Also, looking at your MDApps profile, you seem very involved in research. This isn't a bad thing, but it can make it a little tricky to sell yourself as someone whose goal is to learn (and presumably practice) clinical medicine. If you know any sympathetic MDs who can review your application and give you any feedback it may be helpful.

Good luck!

 

[bluesmd]

But after giving it much thought, based on what I want to do with my medical degree after school (subspecializing + academic medicine - no private practice or family medicine type things for me) Ive decided its just not for me.

i don't think that there you don't have to graduate top of your class to get a residency. i understand that you don't want to move, but if your husband needs a job and you really do want to be a doctor then you should seriously consider DO. at least then you will have a chance to become a specialist and many MD schools have DO profs. if you don't even go to a DO and don't get into MD then you can't even be a doctor.

plus i know the economy is crap and the job market is tough, but this is your future, is there no way you could apply to more schools, if you get in your husband could try everything to get a job where you got in, maybe just apply to big cities where there is a large job market. this isn't like relocating for a hobby or something, this is your dream! good luck

 

[dk33]

I notice that the number of schools you applied to actually went down this time around. If a third go is necessary, you need to cast a wider net. I understand that work and family makes it difficult to consider moving wherever necessary,

I considered applying to schools in other states, but it is just not realistic. who will help me with my kid. My husband wont have a job, and he has a amazing one right now in New York. So who will be paying the bills. I know Im making it difficult for myself, and I am up against alot of people who are obviously much better candidates, but unfotunately, I cant be selfish - I have to consider more than just my career- I have to consider what is best for my family as well. So I know my hands are tied, but what am I supposed to do? Divoce my husband and put my baby up for adoption?

Also, looking at your MDApps profile, you seem very involved in research. This isn't a bad thing, but it can make it a little tricky to sell yourself as someone whose goal is to learn (and presumably practice) clinical medicine. If you know any sympathetic MDs who can review your application and give you any feedback it may be helpful.

the ONLY reason Im working at NYMC (and not home with my kid), is because all 3 MDs who reviewed my APP told me - you have to get a job this year, it wont look good to ADCOMs if you "take a year off" to be a stay at home mommy, regardless of how much extracurricular stuff you have on your CV already.
And I would love to find a job doing something other than research- but unfortunately, as a Biology major, I dont realy have any other skills. Hindsight is 20/20, and I shouldve majored in something like PoliSci/finance, who knows- and minored in Bio, so my options for applying to a more diverse pool of jobs wouldve been better.
Clinical medicine is my goal - but I am very interested in Academic medicine, and i figure doing research helps me get there far better than being a phlebotomist. Plus, it pays at least 3x as much, and, I wouldnt be able to do something so monotonous all day. I might not like the lab I am working in all that much, but at least I feel like I am stimulating my mind, being constantly challenged, and using my brain.

Good luck![/quote]

 

[LizzyM]

Going DO does not preclude a career in academic medicine. I can point to several very successful DOs who have done research fellowships and succeeded as faculty members in top-tier allopathic medical schools.

 

[Live4Life]

Going DO does not preclude a career in academic medicine. I can point to several very successful DOs who have done research fellowships and succeeded as faculty members in top-tier allopathic medical schools.

I second what LizzyM said. I'm currently shadowing a very successful radiologist at top 15 ranked allopathic school, who happens to be a DO.

 

[umean2tellme]

A lot of NY schools on there, and being oos for them might make it a little harder. I wouldn't say no to D.O. just because you're afraid of residency spots and future goals, because you have the same practice rights and everything(I'm sure those friends of those at D.O. schools have told you this). Have you written any letters of interest to some of these schools? Maybe try and shadow a prominent doctor in NY, preferably one who's an alumni at one of the schools you applied to and have them write you a letter?

Good luck I hope you get in somewhere

 

[dk33]

Maybe try and shadow a prominent doctor in NY, preferably one who's an alumni at one of the schools you applied to and have them write you a letter?

Good luck I hope you get in somewhere

yup, ive shadowed docs at some of these schools, and others who are alumnae (MSSM, Einstein, Downstate, and NYU alums). I have a letter from a doc I shadowd who is an AECOM alum, and another letter from the NYU alum).

last year, I sent off a slew of "letters of interest" in february, when I hadnt heard from any schools, and all that happened I recieved 7 rejection letters almost instantaneously.

 

[dk33]

ps to all the people who have read/are reading this
well first of all thanks so much for actually caring to comment.
but second of all, someone just pointed out to me on MDapps, that I "should shadow a doctor" and I realized I forgot to mention my hundreds of hours of shadowing experience! So I added that to MDapps. Im copying and pasting it here as well. So if there is a doubt in anyone's mind - hmmmm shes very research oriented- but does she know what MEDICINE is about? I have a pretty good picture. true, sometimes (such as shadowing a surgeon i worked for after i finished my work for the day), it wasnt a full day of shadoiwng - so doesnt give you a "realistic" idea of how grueling a day can be, but most of the time, they were full days of shadowing - from rounds til they finished charting and went home...

SHADOWING
hundreds of hours.
1. first doctor I shadowed was an internist, he was the one who inspired me to become a doctor (wrote about it in my personal statement), overall, I think spent about 10 to 15 full days shadowing him, in clinic and on the floor.
2. Having worked for a vascular surgeon doing clinical resaerch for 2 summers, I spent a considerable amount of time shadowing him as well, basically, if i finished my work early, he would just let me shadow him on rounds, or in the OR which was really cool! got to see tons of different procedures, AAA repair, CABG, Amputations, etc etc, at a University hospital and VA hospital
3. Worked in a nephrology lab for two summers. I shadowed my boss most friday mornings when he had clinic, and 'shadowed' him on medicine rounds early in the morning (before work) when he was on service in july one of those two summers as well.
4. Shadow and ID doc. She lives in Colorado, and now that Im in NY, is more difficult to do, but every time i go home to visit family (pretty often! I would say at least 8 or 10x a year), I spend a day or 2 shadowing her. Shes an awesome teacher, so unassuming, and ID is just fascinating to me.
5. Sophomore year over winter break- shadowed a neurosurgeon for about 2 weeks. Im not exactly interested in becoming a neurosurgeon but the experience was unbelievable!!
7. most interesting - shadowed a doc who moonlighted (moonlit?) at a hospital prison. lots of intersting stories there.
8. Other random days spent with different docs in differnet specialties - shadowed a few geriatricians at some of my fathers nursing homes, transplant surgeon, an endocrinologist, 2 cardiologists, Gastroenterologist, Gynecologist, ER doc, any time I met someone or had a friend or my parents ahd a friend, and they said 'oh youre interested in medicine, want to spend the day watching what I do,' I took them up on their offer!

 

[div141]

I think a lot the schools you applied to are all top schools,

Maybe you should apply to more schools?

 

[dk33]

I think a lot the schools you applied to are all top schools,

Maybe you should apply to more schools?

I know alot of them are too good for me! But read what I wrote. Im tied down, I have a family, and a husband with a job in New York City. Especially with the market how it is, he wont be able to find a comparable job (or, any job, really....it took him 8 months to find this one, and that was with top percentile GMATs, 3.9 GPA, MS in Math, and connections at firms like Lehmann Bros-LOL if you want -he was "guaranteed" a job there-hahaha) in another city, and no well paying job=no money =no nanny=no one to watch our kid while I go to school. That is why I am limited to NY and Colorado, where we have tons of family, and friends, support networks in place. If i were single, heck I would apply to EVERY SCHOOL in the USA, and yes, I would spend all that time writing all thsoe secondary essays for every single one. that is just not an option.

 

[JeanLuc]

I'm sorry about your luck thus far. One thing that came to mind regarding the alternative paths and matching into your preferred residency was matching success of Americans with medical degrees from Commonwealth nations. Though, I've never looked into the numbers before. Just something you may want to check out. With a family, I don't even know if you could consider this as an option... The reason Commonwealth universities came to mind is that I cannot imagine a legitimate reason to discriminate (with respect to residency) against graduates from universities with well established histories... I am saying this based on a limited amount of readings and I haven't actually seen the numbers.

On a side note; I've read that in the US, physicians with MB BS degrees can legally opt to use MD instead as they are equivalent.

 

[MonkeyChow]

As several others have done, I would encourage you to apply DO. If you are limited as you say to NY and CO, it just makes sense to apply DO. As others have said (and LizzyM is a great resource) a DO degree will not limit you to family medicine. I myself have shadowed a cardiothoracic surgeon and an ER doc who were both DOs and fantastic docs.

 

[dk33]

I'm sorry about your luck thus far. One thing that came to mind regarding the alternative paths and matching into your preferred residency was matching success of Americans with medical degrees from Commonwealth nations. Though, I've never looked into the numbers before. Just something you may want to check out. With a family, I don't even know if you could consider this as an option... The reason Commonwealth universities came to mind is that I cannot imagine a legitimate reason to discriminate (with respect to residency) against graduates from universities with well established histories... I am saying this based on a limited amount of readings and I haven't actually seen the numbers.

On a side note; I've read that in the US, physicians with MB BS degrees can legally opt to use MD instead as they are equivalent.

Im sorry, would you mind explaining? What is a commonwealth nation? I just have no idea what your post even means. I thought commonwealths are like "Virginia?"
Again though, thanks for your advice (even if I dont understand what you are talking about -and forgive me, I ve never heard of an MB BS degree I dont even know what that is? a masters in something?), but like i said in my original post and have said over and over, I am pretty limited in terms of relocating, so if "commonwealth nation" (and I still have no clue what that means, again i thought virginia, the state, was a commonwealth), means movign to another country, that would be pretty difficult for us.

 

[Retsage]

Two things that pop to mind:

1) You're applying to schools that have average numbers well out of your range. Your ECs are incredible, but your numbers are not competitive for Columbia, Cornell, NYU, etc.

2) I've always been under the impression that you never mention psychological disorders on your PS, as they're very heavily stigmatized, regardless of how they helped you shape and develop.

 

[dk33]

Two things that pop to mind:

1) You're applying to schools that have average numbers well out of your range. Your ECs are incredible, but your numbers are not competitive for Columbia, Cornell, NYU, etc.

I know
Im probably screwed. But Im still hoping on:
UMDNJ-2 schools
SUNY-2 schools
Einstein
NYMC
U Conn
and also my state school if need be Colorado is a reasonable option for us.

2) I've always been under the impression that you never mention psychological disorders on your PS, as they're very heavily stigmatized, regardless of how they helped you shape and develop.

perhaps youre right and i've screwed myself over with that! I dont know-I had quite a few people read it over-
1 doc (a psychiatrist,incidentally) who sits on an admissions committee (at a school I didnt apply to)
2 docs who sat on admissions cmtes in the past
my premed advisor
a few friends in med school, and a few professors
one of my friends told me to take out one line because it would be a "red flag," but everyone else who read it, gave me only good feedback, no one (including the 3 former and current ADCOM members) told me, bad idea, re-write this. I have no other way of honestly answering the question of why I want to be a doctor. I couldve made s/t up,but it wouldve been BS and I feel like they can see thru BS and I wouldve looked superficial and immature.

 

[beachblonde]

I thought about DO school, and of course, my premed advisor told me straight-out, I wont get into MD school, I should either go to school somewhere in Europe, or apply to DO schools. But after giving it much thought, based on what I want to do with my medical degree after school (subspecializing + academic medicine - no private practice or family medicine type things for me) Ive decided its just not for me. I did think about it, and unlike other people on this site, Im not "offended" or "insulted" by the suggestion - I have quite a few friends in DO school, and Im a pretty open-minded person, and want more than anything to be a physician, but I dont think it fits my goals and I would be afraid of running into problems with residencies/fellowships, unless I graduate top top of my class, and blow them away on the boards. there would be enough pressure as an MD to do so, I dont want to have to go above and beyond that and have to bend over backwards.

Well, coming from somebody who's been there: beggars can't be choosers.

Do you want to be a doctor, or do you want to be an MD? Only you can answer that question.

 

[JeanLuc]

Im sorry, would you mind explaining? What is a commonwealth nation? I just have no idea what your post even means. I thought commonwealths are like "Virginia?"
Again though, thanks for your advice (even if I dont understand what you are talking about -and forgive me, I ve never heard of an MB BS degree I dont even know what that is? a masters in something?), but like i said in my original post and have said over and over, I am pretty limited in terms of relocating, so if "commonwealth nation" (and I still have no clue what that means, again i thought virginia, the state, was a commonwealth), means movign to another country, that would be pretty difficult for us.

My advice/suggestion is probably pointless then. A Commonwealth nation usually refers to much of the Anglosphere formerly administered by the UK. Exclusions would be the US, Ireland, and a few minor former colonies. What I had specifically in mind was either Australia, the UK, or Ireland. The MB BS is the degree granted to medical school graduates in the Commonwealth (exclud. Canada) and in many other countries. MB BS means "Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery". Since medical education really is an undergraduate level of study. E.g. there is no dissertation/research involved in becoming a physician. In the Commonwealth, MD degrees are granted similarly to how a PhD would be granted in the US for research relating to medicine. Anyway, it does sound a bit extreme given the geographic inconvenience. Sorry I don't have anything all that useful to suggest.

 

[dk33]

thanks to everyone who has given me advice thus far.

I have thought long and hard about this over the past week. Basically, relocating is really not an option. We recently bought a house (and with the market as it is, I dont think wed even be able to sell it anytime soon, even if we wanted to!), and New York is really where my husband needs to be professionally, and being that his career is what we will be living off of (financially I mean) for the next number of years, I think we will be staying put. Moreover, with kids and all, moving to somewhere where we dont have family and friends - would be realy hard on our family. I dont want a nanny raising my kids. So somehow, I need to make my location work fo rme.

Given that - my question is, what can I do to improve my application?

1. I have hundreds of hours of shadowing experience
2. Obviously tons of research experience- NIH fellowship, 3 publications etc.
3. alot of volunteering experience.
4. extracurricular activities galore

So none of those are the problem.

Boils down to:
MCAT or GPA.
Here is the issue.
I took the MCAT twice. I am NOT a good test taker. I was doing great on the practice exams (high 30s), but when I took the actual test, I freaked out. To prepare the second time around, I took 2 review courses, had a private tutor (to go through the things I felt I was weakest with), and took a test at a test prep center, to hopefully alleviate some of the "nerves" issues. I DONT think, with more studying and preparation, I can do much better than I did, and i DO fear, doing worse, which would screw me over even more.

Which leaves: GPA. What can I do to improve it? If I go back to school (for something other than a MD), I would want do enroll in a program that I would feel would help me later on in my career. such as Epidemiology, Public Health, Health Administration, etc. but will medical schools look favorably upon those? I am TOTALLY not intersted in getting a MS in biochemistry or chemistry or physiology. If I was, I would put in the extra few years and all the hard work and toil, and get a PhD.

I am not all that interseted in basic science (even though I have spent a good amt of time in the lab. I look at it right now as being the closest I can get to medicine-an indirect way in which I can hopefully help alleviate peoples suffering by helping cure diseases-even if its not something that is helping right now-a means to an end for me), and would be absolutely miserable spending 2 years in such a program.

anyone care to comment? Other than that, can anyone think of anything else I can do to improve my application?

Thanks in advance!

 

[dk33]

anyone??

 

[LizzyM]

You've got an interview... make the most of it. Learn everything you can about the school, read all the interview feedback and be prepared (but not rehearsed/canned) for the most likely questions. Have good questions for your interviewer that shows you are familiar with the school. Be sure to let the interviewers know that this is your top choice and that you are very happy to be there. Mention two or three things, other than geography, that lead you to think that NYMC is a good fit.

If you want to mention that you have a great support network and are blessed to have family who are supportive then go for it but don't feel obligated to mention your husband or your baby.

It only takes one interview and NYMC appears to be your shot. Run with it.

Your gpa needs work and your MCAT, while above the avg nationally, is below avg for most NYC schools which puts your application at the bottom of the pile. MCAT is more quickly improved that uGPA. An MPH or MHA would do nothing for your uGPA.

 

[bluesmd]

not rehearsed/canned

now you have the interview, THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT. i definitely prepared for my interviews, sdn, amcas app, sec app. but i did NOT prepare any answers. everything i said was real and expressed naturally. coming out from one of my interviews, i was worried because the interviewer asked me to extended my answers multiple times on multiple questions. but everything i said was true, i really just stated my true beliefs and i got in! so just be yourself, natural. you are who you are. don't be fake and rehearsing answers sounds really boring. good luck

by the way: thanks LizzyM for all the good stuff you help us with

 

[dk33]

You've got an interview... make the most of it.

I am planning on it. And not to toot my own horn, but I do think I am a sociable person and a good interviewer. I know my weaknesses and I also know my strengths.

Learn everything you can about the school, read all the interview feedback and be prepared (but not rehearsed/canned) for the most likely questions.

been reading the interview feedback on SDN, and with regard to learning everything I can about the school, Ive spoken to current students and alumnae, and

Have good questions for your interviewer that shows you are familiar with the school.

I am working in a lab at NYMC, so I am pretty familiar with how things work around here, and thankfully, it gives me the opportunity to talk to current students as well (lab is in the medical education building)

Be sure to let the interviewers know that this is your top choice and that

should I write a letter beforehand? Or should I not jump the gun.

Mention two or three things, other than geography, that lead you to think that NYMC is a good fit.

Ok, thanks so much. I will make sure to do just that.

but don't feel obligated to mention your husband or your baby.

Just out of curiosity- why. Is that a bad thing? does having a family put me at a disadvantage (like will they think I will be a less committed student or something?) I thought for some reason, having a family would work to my advantage because it would help show schools that I can handle real life responsibility, finances, handling a family, etc, so while things might be more complicated for me (ie not being able to move so easily), I am also making it work to the best of my ability?

It only takes one interview and NYMC appears to be your shot.

OMG I HOPE SO!! Wish me luck!!

MCAT is more quickly improved that uGPA. An MPH or MHA would do nothing for your uGPA.

ok thanks. I know MCAT is more quickly improved I have come to the conclusion that I am not a good test-taker. I know the information cold. And I have sat down and taught friends, siblings, and cousins studying for the MCAT the information, and theyve done better than me,surprise surprise. I wish there was a way to fix it, but Im scared that trying to fix it will just get me stuck deeper in the hole I dug (b/c theres a fair chance that Ill do worse than I already did which will screw me over)

Thanks as always LizzyM for your advice. I was hoping youd find the time to reply to my thread!!! It means alot to me.

 

[LizzyM]

Don't send a letter yet. Mention to your interviewer how much you love being at NYMC as an employee and how you'd love to be there as a student... Send a letter and stay in touch regularly if you end up on the waitlist. You need to let them know that you are ready to jump if they make you an offer.

Although discrimination on the basis of marital status and parenting status isn't supposed to happen, it can bias interviewers who may then find some trumped up reason to downgrade you as an applicant. Decisions shouldn't be made on the basis of age, race, sex, color, religion, nationality, sexual orientation, marital status, etc and it is best to leave those out of the interview, IMHO. Same goes for politicial affiliation.


Because they'll write you up for something else it can never be proven that they were nervous about having someone who might have conflicting priorities. I don't know how often this sort of thing happens because there is no proof that it does happen. (Does someone say that an applicant was stiff, didn't smile, was rehearsed, seemed uninterested when there was something else that the interviewer was responding to but didn't care to mention?) Not mentioning your home life other than to say that your family (generic, all encompassing) is supportive, is a safe route. If you've mentioned husband & kid in the application, then that cat is out of the bag and is fodder for the interview. Be prepared.

I have no idea how friendly NYMC is to non-trads and to students with families. You might try to check out whether they have a club for students with families to socialize as a group & support one another. This would be a sign that there is a critical mass of students like yourself and might be an encouraging sign.