low BMR & obesity, which one is cause and which is effect?

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Edison

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Obese people have more adipose tissues; adipocytes are low metabolic cells so naturally they have a lower BMR than thin people. So obesity causes a low BMR.

However, a low BMR means that you're using less calories to support your body functions, and the excess is stored as fat. So a low BMR causes obesity.

so......well, I don't think it's correct to say that one can cause the other and vice versa in this example. Am I misunderstanding something here?

Thanks 🙂
 
Yes, you forgot about the patient's weight!

Obese people, due to excess adipose, have a lower BMR expressed in calories needed per pound of body weight. However, their total BMR is higher than a normal weight person. Their lean body mass, with its associated BMR, will be pretty much the same, no matter how much adipose they have. The extra adipose will then add to that BMR.
Don't forget, too, that digestion is included in your BMR. For the normal person, it's about 10% of total calories. If you're eating more than what a normal person should (overeating is strongly associated with wearing size XXXL pants) then you're also using more energy to digest all that extra food.

So, in the absence of medical causes of low BMR (hypothyroid, hyperinsulinemia, etc), the reason a person is overweight is because they are eating too much food. I know it sounds harsh, but the fact is, you don't have take in very many extra calories to start packing on pounds-one 20 oz bottle of soda a day, and BAM, you are carrying around 25 extra pounds. That 25 pounds of pure blubber has then increased your BMR to a point where it matches the extra 250 calories in your daily soda, and your weight will stabilize.
 
The OP has hit the nail on the head with this chicken and egg question. The likely answer is that we won't know for awhile and which may very well depend on the patient (some patients may have genetic predispositions and have pre-diabetes before they become obese- is it the hyperinsulinemia with the impaired glucose tolerance that leads to the obesity in some patients because of the increased lipogenesis. Alternatively, if the patient is already obese, it sets up a vicious cycle).

I hate to break the deeply held belief that obesity is always a matter of calories in v. calories out but the reality is that it is not always that simple. True, this equation may be applicable in the majority of cases but there are other factors including BMR (as well as % brown adipose) that we are just starting to appreciate and trying to measure more accurately. For example, consider why many obese patients baseline temperature is several degrees under average (i.e., 96 F) and how that relates to the hypothalamus and the body's metabolic set point.

Moreover, science has made great strides in learning the different hormonal interactions between adipose tissue and the rest of the body. Even ten years ago, much of the medical profession thought fat cells did very little besides store excess calories. Now, we know that they have tremendous impact on many of our body's organ systems- one reason why diabetic patients who have undergone weight loss surgery can sometimes get off their insulin within 2 weeks of the surgery. Although the patients can lose 20+pounds in the first two week period, this window is not long enough for them to lose a substantial enough amount of weight for the weight loss to be the primary reason they can discontinue their meds. Consider the diabetic patient who was 450 pounds before surgery-- 20 pounds is not even 5 percent of their body weight. We simply do not know all the complexities involved in this process. For all you gunners out there, this could be your ticket to a nobel prize.
 
yup.

everybody, keep a damned open mind...you hear? there's soooooo much that is learned every freakin day in our field.

i am so sick of closed minded people saying 'this can't be' or 'that can' be'.

how do you know? do research. explore. create. stop believing what everyone tells you is gospel in med school. not saying none of it isn't..just saying keep an open mind.

realize how much of what we learn now will simply be untrue in years to come.

ahhh...medicine.

this is why i love it.😀
 
LOL.

Just when I am hunkering down with a stack of drugs to memorize, I remember that virtually none of these are used on the wards currently and I will have a whole new lot to learn in third year. SIGH.
 
The OP has hit the nail on the head with this chicken and egg question. The likely answer is that we won't know for awhile and which may very well depend on the patient (some patients may have genetic predispositions and have pre-diabetes before they become obese- is it the hyperinsulinemia with the impaired glucose tolerance that leads to the obesity in some patients because of the increased lipogenesis. Alternatively, if the patient is already obese, it sets up a vicious cycle).

I hate to break the deeply held belief that obesity is always a matter of calories in v. calories out but the reality is that it is not always that simple. True, this equation may be applicable in the majority of cases but there are other factors including BMR (as well as % brown adipose) that we are just starting to appreciate and trying to measure more accurately. For example, consider why many obese patients baseline temperature is several degrees under average (i.e., 96 F) and how that relates to the hypothalamus and the body's metabolic set point.

Moreover, science has made great strides in learning the different hormonal interactions between adipose tissue and the rest of the body. Even ten years ago, much of the medical profession thought fat cells did very little besides store excess calories. Now, we know that they have tremendous impact on many of our body's organ systems- one reason why diabetic patients who have undergone weight loss surgery can sometimes get off their insulin within 2 weeks of the surgery. Although the patients can lose 20+pounds in the first two week period, this window is not long enough for them to lose a substantial enough amount of weight for the weight loss to be the primary reason they can discontinue their meds. Consider the diabetic patient who was 450 pounds before surgery-- 20 pounds is not even 5 percent of their body weight. We simply do not know all the complexities involved in this process. For all you gunners out there, this could be your ticket to a nobel prize.


I agree with you that obesity is often a complex physiological issue.

But when you look at the skyrocketing rate of obesity in our country right now, it is absolutely as simple as "calories in vs. calories out."

Our society (according a presentation I saw last week) is 60% overweight or obese. That is not because of BMR or brown adipocytes.
 
Jeez... the secret to increasing your BMR and fighting obesity and Diabetes II and soooooooooo many other problems is sooooooooo simple. A person merely has to get off of their butt and exercise - PREFERRABLY using resistance training. In other words lift weights, it's like magik or sumthin...

Of course diet is important as well, but if you gotta choose then choose to move.
 
We had an endocrinologist give a 4-part lecture on diabetes, which invariably turned into a sounding board for his covert topic: "Obesity: It's not really your fault". He talked about leptin and ghrelin and other such hormones involving hypothalamic feedback and such, and was saying that once someone's lost about 10% of their weight they've maxed out their losses....eh....

It is almost as simple as calories in calories out. Beyond calories in and calories out, there is a difference in the way your body responds to different kinds of calories, and so a 2100 calorie diet with a healthy balanced composition will have a different effect than a 2100 calorie diet full of crap food. A doughnut causes a different glycemic response than a salad packed with veggies. That's the most basic hormonal response to food most people in the general public understand, but we know more about the body's response to those high insulin spikes. Certain substances are metabolized differently than others too; fructose can preferentially be metabolized to form triglycerides for example. Adipose tissue itself is even metabolic, and not just in that it has aromatase.
 
When I read the OP's post, it seemed like they were saying something like this:

Does being over 2 meters in height cause someone to be tall, or does being tall cause you to be over 2 meters in height?

Don't confuse two measurements that both describe the condition of "more energy in than out."

Then I read this post:
...But when you look at the skyrocketing rate of obesity in our country right now, it is absolutely as simple as "calories in vs. calories out."...
and I remembered a doc telling us in a presentation that she has 10-15 y/o patients with BMIs >40! These kids and their parents all say that it's not their fault, it's their genes. While leptin deficiencies are real, verified genetic deficiencies make up only about 2% of the obese in our nation.
 
low BMR from primary hypothyroidism can definitely cause obesity.

We were taught that overall, BMR tends to compensate for metabolic state, so thin people would be epxected to have a low BMR and more obese people would have a higher BMR than baseline.
 
I hate to break the deeply held belief that obesity is always a matter of calories in v. calories out but the reality is that it is not always that simple. True, this equation may be applicable in the majority of cases but there are other factors including BMR

"Calories out" = exercise + thermic effect of food + Basal Metabolic Rate.

BMR is not an "other factor"
Calories out INCLUDES BMR.
Yes, BMR can vary. That does not change the equation:
weight loss/gain = food consumed - (exercise + TEF + BMR)
If a person has a low BMR, they would need to either eat less or exercise more (or both) to lose weight compared to someone with a higher BMR.
 
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