Low MCAT verbal score

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huatuo

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Hello everyone, I am applying for med school this year. I just got my MCAT score back yesterday: VR-6, PS-13, BS-11. With such a low verbal score, I am debating whether to send out my secondaries to some of the top-tier schools (Hopkins, Stanford, Baylor, UChicago) because it might just be a waste of $$$. I received my PhD in physics from UChicago and have done extensive medical research at Hopkins for 4 years with publications. Undergraduate GPA was great (3.89). What do you guys think? :confused:
Thanks!

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You'd get more responses in the What Are My Chances forum under Pre-Allo, but I suspect that many schools will screen you out for the low VR. Sub-8 in any section is a straight cut-off for many schools. Your other scores are great, of course!

You might want to re-take the MCAT in January and send any schools which waitlist you an update letter with your new and improved verbal score. But first you have to identify why your VR is so low and what you can do to improve it. Best of luck!
 
Hello everyone, I am applying for med school this year. I just got my MCAT score back yesterday: VR-6, PS-13, BS-11. With such a low verbal score, I am debating whether to send out my secondaries to some of the top-tier schools (Hopkins, Stanford, Baylor, UChicago) because it might just be a waste of $$$. I received my PhD in physics from UChicago and have done extensive medical research at Hopkins for 4 years with publications. Undergraduate GPA was great (3.89). What do you guys think? :confused:
Thanks!

It does not hurt to try. Just pick two schools so you don't waste too much money. I know that the top-tier schools are big on the MCAT. I received ZERO interviews with a VR=5 and I have similar background as you. Not until I retook the MCAT and got a VR=9 did I get interviews from my state schools.
 
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The SIX is going to sink you at like 65% of US med schools--its a shame because your other numbers are so great.
Get a copy of the MSAR--it shows the lowest score in each section admitted by each school. A ton of schools screen anything lower than an 8 in one section.

I would do a LOT of reading and retake. Just don't sit again until you are doing >9 on real practice verbals. Most people don't safeguard enough against the fact that it is possible to do worse.
 
If I were in your shoes, I'd send them out anyway. Why the hell not? Go all in.
 
I'm in a similar situation, because I got a 7 in the PS section. (Total score 31S: 7 PS 13 VR 11 BS.) Like you, I had already filed my AMCAS and a number of secondaries, and I debated whether to send out the rest. I decided to do it anyway, because I'll still be considered a "re-applicant" at those schools regardless, and I might as well give it a try. However, I don't have any illusions that my chances are great at even mid-tier schools, because (as Destro96 said) many schools screen out anything below an 8. In fact, I just added 13 more schools to my app that accept students with fairly low stats, just to help my chances of getting in somewhere.

Unfortunately, a 6 puts you in an even worse position. I PM'd with another nontrad student who got a 6 in bio last year, but strong scores in the other sections; even with a graduate degree and strong ECs and LORs, he didn't get a single interview. He retook the MCAT, did much better and is reapplying this year.

To be brutally frank, I do think it would be a waste of money to send in secondaries to JHU, Stanford, etc. (BTW, Chicago told the student with the 6 in bio that they won't interview anyone with less than a 7 in any section.) But do send in apps to mid- and lower-tier schools and see what happens, realizing that you'll most likely have to reapply.

Good luck with everything.
 
Get a copy of the MSAR--it shows the lowest score in each section admitted by each school.
Prior to the new version, the full range for admitteds was shown, which presumably included the lowest VR score. As of the '09 edition, we now know only what the 10th percentile scores of admitteds were. There are 29 schools with a sub-8 in VR at the 10th percentile. The top-tier schools listed by the OP have 9's at the 10th percentile.

A ton of schools screen anything lower than an 8 in one section.
A ton of schools don't publish their rules, specifically because they might want to make an exception for a physics PhD with a 3.89 who can kill his interview. (How's your personality?)

All that said, I'm with the rest of the posters who are recommending that you wait a year, make some big, bold changes in your relationship with the English language, and retake. That undergrad GPA is gold, pure gold, don't waste it. I'd trade my 11VR for your GPA, happily.

Best of luck to you.
 
For what it's worth, I spoke with the Admissions Director at Jefferson last week. I had spoken with her before sending in my secondary, and she agreed to personally review my app. She e-mailed me after reviewing it, and told me I could call her to discuss it. BTW, she said they love non-trads at JMC, and was very encouraging, even though I kept insinuating that I might be too old to apply after this year.

My MCAT is mediocre (PS7, VR10, BS9), and she pointed out that the PS7 would probably really hurt my chances, especially for OOS schools (and, although she didn't say directly, and I was too chicken to ask, I do believe that JMC will be sending me a rejection letter soon). I am a Virginia resident, and was recently invited for an interview at VCU...:)...which she said was not surprising, since they have to meet their numbers, which I assumed meant number of in-state interviewees/acceptances.

The other thing I wanted to add was she mentioned that although my PS score was low (and she was surprised b/c I minored in chem...which, I reminded her, was over 12 years ago), that the VR score is the best indicator, followed by the BS score, of how well you'll do in med school, so she had no doubt that I would do fine as a student. She also suggested that I look into DO schools, and that I would have a good chance of getting into one.

Best of luck to you, huatuo...and everyone else!
 
Hello everyone, I am applying for med school this year. I just got my MCAT score back yesterday: VR-6, PS-13, BS-11. With such a low verbal score, I am debating whether to send out my secondaries to some of the top-tier schools (Hopkins, Stanford, Baylor, UChicago) because it might just be a waste of $$$. I received my PhD in physics from UChicago and have done extensive medical research at Hopkins for 4 years with publications. Undergraduate GPA was great (3.89). What do you guys think? :confused:
Thanks!

To be frank, you have virtually no shot at top-tier schools with that MCAT. It's up to you whether you want to waste the money.
Also, you are applying very late.
You are going to be hard pressed to get in any MD school with that 6.
I'd start practing for VR now and plan on reapplying next year.
You might get in somewhere this time, but start practicing for a retake now anyway.
 
I spoke with the Admissions Director at Jefferson last week. ... My MCAT is mediocre (PS7, VR10, BS9), and she pointed out that the PS7 would probably really hurt my chances, especially for OOS schools (and, although she didn't say directly, and I was too chicken to ask, I do believe that JMC will be sending me a rejection letter soon). ...she mentioned that although my PS score was low ... that the VR score is the best indicator, followed by the BS score, of how well you'll do in med school, so she had no doubt that I would do fine as a student.

Does anyone other than me think this admissions director is talking out of both sides of her mouth? (I've heard similar rhetoric from adcoms at other schools too.) On one hand, she's saying that pandamuse's low PS score has little bearing on his fitness as a med student--but on the other, she's strongly implying that neither her school nor most others will admit him. If he's going to be such a great student, then why not give him a shot? Oh no, we couldn't do that--then we'd have a student with imperfect stats! Civilization as we know it would cease to exist!

I find it hard to believe that Jefferson, or any other allo school, truly "loves nontrads" if they have absolutely no tolerance for imperfections in their records. To me, accepting only nontrads with picture-perfect records does not constitute "nontrad love." It's more like "nontrad tolerance." (I'm channeling Tina Fey here: "Oh, I tolerate nontrads, I tolerate them with all my heart. And I know plenty of them--not personally, but I know OF them ...")

And why, why is it that the only way that allo adcoms seem to deal with nontrads (or trads, for that matter) with even slightly problematic numbers is to push them toward DO school? (BTW, I am NOT knocking DO schools themselves, so don't take this the wrong way.) They always make comments like, "DO schools are great, they're full of wonderful students, etc." Yes, they ARE full of wonderful students--many of which the allo schools have rejected! So if DO schools are so great, why can't the MD schools CHANGE to be MORE LIKE THEM?

Oh no. We couldn't have that. (Why not?)
 
I'm with everyone who says wait and retake if you're dead set on an MD from a US school. Best of luck.
 
And why, why is it that the only way that allo adcoms seem to deal with nontrads (or trads, for that matter) with even slightly problematic numbers is to push them toward DO school? (BTW, I am NOT knocking DO schools themselves, so don't take this the wrong way.) They always make comments like, "DO schools are great, they're full of wonderful students, etc." Yes, they ARE full of wonderful students--many of which the allo schools have rejected! So if DO schools are so great, why can't the MD schools CHANGE to be MORE LIKE THEM?

Oh no. We couldn't have that. (Why not?)

45,000+ applicants, <18,000 seats. These are the facts. Pretend you're in charge: do you want to interview every applicant? How are you going to pay for that, at $100/app? At, say, GWU, with its 13,000 applicants? That's a $1.3 million budget, by far the highest. How about North Dakota: 300 apps, $50/pop, that's a $15,000 budget before you inevitably dip into state funds. Both are chump change, if you want to have an office that runs with any efficiency. You need to spend a good $200k on the dean of admissions' salary and benes alone, if you want somebody who can reasonably be expected to not cost your school its accreditation. You'll go through the rest of that budget with staff and operating costs, easily. For every excom who gets paid, there are at least 3 unpaid physicians who volunteer their time, which requires a professional level of begging and accomodation. You have to pay lawyers to help define and defend acceptance policy. How it feels for a low-stat applicant to be rejected is not on the top 100 list of things the dean of admissions or excoms are worrying about. Consider it a perk if they're at least nice to us. Do YOU want to be the excom who explains to a lawyer-parent why their sweet little published 3.8 didn't get in, but there's a 3.0 sitting in a state-funded seat? Do you want to try to manage a policy where those with life experience are evaluated differently from trads? Good luck with that, you'll need a whole bunch more budget for legal. Lather, rinse, repeat 130 times.

C'mon, we're nontrads. We've worked in industry. We know from administrativia and operational overhead and budgets and human resources. We can bitch and whine like the fetal pre-allos who don't know better, or we can act according to our experience which shows that it's an unbelievable and permanent pain in the ass to get an organization to operate smoothly, consistently, legally, ethically, on budget AND get any work done, even if everybody involved is truly committed to excellence. You want in? You follow best practices: show up with a competitive app. Or you're up against random human action. Complain all you like.

But I'm nobody. Don't mind me. Go interview a dean of admissions or an admissions office manager and see what they have to say for themselves. What's their definition of a successful admissions department? Let me know how that goes.

//end rant
 
We can bitch and whine like the fetal pre-allos who don't know better...
I'll grant you that it's natural to interpret my post as purely sour grapes, but it goes well beyond that. Yes, obviously I have personal reasons for being frustrated with this process, but the overwhelming reason for my post was the following: I heard bull****, and I called bull****. To hear med schools talk, you'd think there was no other way to select applicants than the one they use now. I disagree rather strongly with that.

Let me give you a huge counterexample: admissions to the most selective colleges in this country (Ivy League and the ilk). It's COMPLETELY changed in the last 40 years, and most Americans would say for the better. WAY back in the day (i.e. before WWII), Ivy League schools admitted almost all of their students based on legacies and social status, but there were a small number of "deserving poor" who got in based on academic ability, as measured by admission test scores. (In fact, the joint admission test administered by the Ivy League schools evolved into the SAT.) By the '60s, social standing had waned somewhat in importance for Ivy League admissions, and SAT scores had become more important. But the big change came in the late '60s, when several Ivy schools hired deans of admissions who radically changed their admissions philosophies. Being a legacy no longer trumped everything else, so an alumni child could get rejected in favor of an outsider who was smarter. Public school students, minorities and women began to be admitted in significant numbers. As time went by, the Ivies started to look for students who were "interesting" as well as smart: artists, people with unusual hobbies, etc. For decades now, it's been well known that high grades and perfect SAT's are not enough to get you into a top college--there has to be something "special" about you. And conversely, these schools take quite a few students who may NOT have the highest grades or scores, but have shown their caliber in some other way (essays, life history, personal accomplishments).


To recap, what most people would consider the "best" colleges in America no longer rely slavishly on stats to admit students--and no one would claim that their graduates are stupid. (In fact, quite a few of them become doctors.) Are you telling me that all the med schools in America would fall apart if they got a LITTLE more creative in their approach?

You have to pay lawyers to help define and defend acceptance policy.
That really applies only to public med schools (of which there are 79)--which leaves 47 private schools who can pick their students any way they please.

Pretend you're in charge: do you want to interview every applicant? How are you going to pay for that, at $100/app?
I never suggested that med schools interview every applicant, just that they consider factors other than grades and scores in their admission decisions. But there's no reason to believe that they couldn't interview a MUCH higher percentage of their applicants if they so chose.

As a model, I'd point again to the Ivy League colleges.
ALL of them receive many more applications than any med school, and they reject nearly as high a percentage of their applicants as med schools. (According to the NY Times, Harvard got about 23,000 apps this year and admitted about 2,000, a 9% acceptance rate.) Yet virtually all the Ivies INTERVIEW ANYONE WHO ASKS FOR ONE. Yup, that's right--and they don't go broke doing it. How could this be? In my day (OK, I'm old), all the schools had on-campus interviews, but now only Yale does--they've moved to alumni interviews instead. (Interestingly, it wasn't logistics or cost that led to this change: it was an effort to level the playing field. The Ivy schools felt that on-campus interviews biased admissions in favor of students who could afford to travel to the interviews. Funny how med schools seem completely unconcerned about this issue.)

My overall point is that Ivy college admissions is quite similar to med school admissions in that a very scare resource is being allocated, and there are many more qualified applicants than places. Both processes select students that society at large agrees are highly qualified and eminently successful. Yet Ivy admissions is NOT predominantly driven by stats, and med school admissions is. That suggests to me that med schools could select their students in any number of different ways and still come up with good ones--yet they seem to think that the stats-based approach is the only way.


Don't mind me. Go interview a dean of admissions or an admissions office manager and see what they have to say for themselves. What's their definition of a successful admissions department?
We all know their definition of a successful admissions department: we're living it. My entire point is that I disagree with their definition. (And please don't point out to me that I don't run a med school. You don't have to run a med school in order to differ with med school admission philosophies.)
 
It will not be a waste. I had a best friend who had a 7V, 8BS 10PS with a 3.87 from a mid tier private university. He got rejected from our state med school but got into UCLA with those scores, YES OOS, YES CALIFORNIA, YES HE WASNT A MINORITY AND WE WERE ALL SUPRISED AS HECK, but who cares, he got in, lucky as heck, and it says on MSAR that his chances were less than 0.0000000001%, screw all those books, try your luck!
 
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The SIX is going to sink you at like 65% of US med schools--its a shame because your other numbers are so great.
Get a copy of the MSAR--it shows the lowest score in each section admitted by each school. A ton of schools screen anything lower than an 8 in one section.

I would do a LOT of reading and retake. Just don't sit again until you are doing >9 on real practice verbals. Most people don't safeguard enough against the fact that it is possible to do worse.

Mayo's about the only one I can think of that does not have a section cutoff (they consider overall GPA + MCAT in their academic screen), in my experience it's more like 95% + of schools will screen out a six. As confirmed above, Chicago will screen you out (from an interview) with lower than a 7, even with a degree from the school.

MSAR lists 10th & 90th percentiles, so there is some chance, theoretically, to be accepted with a score lower than the school scores, but if the 10th percentile is a 9 at a school & you've got a 6, probably, not so much.

Unfortunately, probably another MCAT is warranted. Another option is to call a handfull of admissions offices & ask what their academic screen is. If no answer, ask them if they interview many candidates with your MCAT section score.
 
Hello everyone, I am applying for med school this year. I just got my MCAT score back yesterday: VR-6, PS-13, BS-11. With such a low verbal score, I am debating whether to send out my secondaries to some of the top-tier schools (Hopkins, Stanford, Baylor, UChicago) because it might just be a waste of $$$. I received my PhD in physics from UChicago and have done extensive medical research at Hopkins for 4 years with publications. Undergraduate GPA was great (3.89). What do you guys think? :confused:
Thanks!


Apply anyways. Take your chances!!! If you don't want to retake the MCAT and waste a whole year of school apply to ROSS or one of the other carribean school. I have a friend who tried for fours to get into a US school. She finally ended up at ROSS with two babies. By now she would have been a resident instead she is in her second year at ROSS. My point is there is more than one way to get there. It all depends on you if you are willing to walk through the desert to achieve your dream. Good Luck!!! How bad do you want to become a doctor? No matter what school you go to at the end of the day you will be Dr.[last name].
 
Thanks! I think one of the options is to add a few more lower-tier schools to my AMCAS application to cover a wider range. I am thinking about U. Maryland, U. Illinois, Drexel, George Washington, and Tulane. Hopefully I will get an interview from one of them and do my best from there. I am hesitant to take the MCAT again in Jan. because I feel the VR score is the most difficult one for me to improve.
 
I'll grant you that it's natural to interpret my post as purely sour grapes, but it goes well beyond that. Yes, obviously I have personal reasons for being frustrated with this process, but the overwhelming reason for my post was the following: I heard bull****, and I called bull****. To hear med schools talk, you'd think there was no other way to select applicants than the one they use now. I disagree rather strongly with that.

Let me give you a huge counterexample: admissions to the most selective colleges in this country (Ivy League and the ilk). It's COMPLETELY changed in the last 40 years, and most Americans would say for the better. WAY back in the day (i.e. before WWII), Ivy League schools admitted almost all of their students based on legacies and social status, but there were a small number of "deserving poor" who got in based on academic ability, as measured by admission test scores. (In fact, the joint admission test administered by the Ivy League schools evolved into the SAT.) By the '60s, social standing had waned somewhat in importance for Ivy League admissions, and SAT scores had become more important. But the big change came in the late '60s, when several Ivy schools hired deans of admissions who radically changed their admissions philosophies. Being a legacy no longer trumped everything else, so an alumni child could get rejected in favor of an outsider who was smarter. Public school students, minorities and women began to be admitted in significant numbers. As time went by, the Ivies started to look for students who were "interesting" as well as smart: artists, people with unusual hobbies, etc. For decades now, it's been well known that high grades and perfect SAT's are not enough to get you into a top college--there has to be something "special" about you. And conversely, these schools take quite a few students who may NOT have the highest grades or scores, but have shown their caliber in some other way (essays, life history, personal accomplishments).


To recap, what most people would consider the "best" colleges in America no longer rely slavishly on stats to admit students--and no one would claim that their graduates are stupid. (In fact, quite a few of them become doctors.) Are you telling me that all the med schools in America would fall apart if they got a LITTLE more creative in their approach?

That really applies only to public med schools (of which there are 79)--which leaves 47 private schools who can pick their students any way they please.

I never suggested that med schools interview every applicant, just that they consider factors other than grades and scores in their admission decisions. But there's no reason to believe that they couldn't interview a MUCH higher percentage of their applicants if they so chose.

As a model, I'd point again to the Ivy League colleges.
ALL of them receive many more applications than any med school, and they reject nearly as high a percentage of their applicants as med schools. (According to the NY Times, Harvard got about 23,000 apps this year and admitted about 2,000, a 9% acceptance rate.) Yet virtually all the Ivies INTERVIEW ANYONE WHO ASKS FOR ONE. Yup, that's right--and they don't go broke doing it. How could this be? In my day (OK, I'm old), all the schools had on-campus interviews, but now only Yale does--they've moved to alumni interviews instead. (Interestingly, it wasn't logistics or cost that led to this change: it was an effort to level the playing field. The Ivy schools felt that on-campus interviews biased admissions in favor of students who could afford to travel to the interviews. Funny how med schools seem completely unconcerned about this issue.)

My overall point is that Ivy college admissions is quite similar to med school admissions in that a very scare resource is being allocated, and there are many more qualified applicants than places. Both processes select students that society at large agrees are highly qualified and eminently successful. Yet Ivy admissions is NOT predominantly driven by stats, and med school admissions is. That suggests to me that med schools could select their students in any number of different ways and still come up with good ones--yet they seem to think that the stats-based approach is the only way.


We all know their definition of a successful admissions department: we're living it. My entire point is that I disagree with their definition. (And please don't point out to me that I don't run a med school. You don't have to run a med school in order to differ with med school admission philosophies.)

:thumbup::thumbup:

Well stated.

As for how the schools pay for all the costs of interviewing? I'm pretty sure the $125 secondary fee myself and 12,999 other applicants to GW may help offset that cost.
I'm not shedding any tears for the adcoms.
 
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