Low MCAT... why do people automatically suggest DO?

[bozz]

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Just from looking at the advice on here.. whenever someone (preallo) gets a lower than average MCAT... people automatically suggest 1) the caribbean... which makes sense

and

2) DO schools

I don't get it... regardless of whether or not do schools have lower mcat averages, just because someone got a low mcat school doesn't mean they're interested in DO

I'd like to not think that DO schools are full of people who didn't make it to pre-allo. I'm pre-allo b/c I'm interested in what an MD does... I'm hoping most DOs are DOs because they're interested in what they're doing.

~ just something I noticed on the boards

 

[Jessie12]

in an ideal world, yes, people would enter DO because they are interested in osteopathic practice. However, it is important to remember is that many students hope to pursue a career in healthcare...healing the sick, touching lives, ...an altruistic profession. Sometimes, then, DO is a more suitable option, as most MD schools have rigorous (often unfair) statistical cut-offs.
What counts is that at the end of the day, we'll be working side by side..and those two initials after our names (MD vs. DO) probably wont make a difference at that point.

 

[BlackSails]

It is a fact that DO schools are easier to get into, espically with low MCAT scores. This is why they are recommended to people with low MCAT scores.

 

[mmmcat]

in an ideal world, yes, people would enter DO because they are interested in osteopathic practice. However, it is important to remember is that many students hope to pursue a career in healthcare...healing the sick, touching lives, ...an altruistic profession. Sometimes, then, DO is a more suitable option, as most MD schools have rigorous (often unfair) statistical cut-offs.
What counts is that at the end of the day, we'll be working side by side..and those two initials after our names (MD vs. DO) probably wont make a difference at that point.

good response 👍

 

[bozz]

in an ideal world, yes, people would enter DO because they are interested in osteopathic practice. However, it is important to remember is that many students hope to pursue a career in healthcare...healing the sick, touching lives, ...an altruistic profession. Sometimes, then, DO is a more suitable option, as most MD schools have rigorous (often unfair) statistical cut-offs.
What counts is that at the end of the day, we'll be working side by side..and those two initials after our names (MD vs. DO) probably wont make a difference at that point.

👍

 

[scowdeva]

I do think that it is important to point out one thing (and I know I'm biased but whatever)- not all DO programs are cake walks to get into. The highly respected ones have averages that are on par with the 'lower tier' allo schools. MSUCOM is nationally ranked for primary care (#5), and the class averages are at a 3.5 and 28 MCAT and rising (these are the officially released numbers of last fall's entering class). They have already announced that next year's entering class will have the highest averages based on who they have admitted (their class is 99% full already, they do it very early).

Sure, there are a few with averages that make me cringe. I don't want to badmouth any specific schools, but some of them are so low as to be unacceptable to me. I don't think that any school should have an average MCAT of 24, yet they are out there. I think the main reason that people automatically jump on the 'go DO' bandwagon is that they have busted their butt to get their amazing MCAT score, and therefore kind of equate that with being worthy of being a doctor. They are also making the assumption that DO schools will take anyone who simply sat for the MCAT. Yes, some of them will. But there are also some that are great schools, and that you can match well from. It's all very school-specific.

I think it's important for people to consider their own situation before making a decision about applying MD/DO/Caribbean. Simply having an amazing MCAT or an amazing GPA does not guarantee an acceptance, or even an interview. There are some people out there who are strongly above the averages but don't get acceptances or even interviews. The whole file is truly important. Yes, some numbers can help you make the cut, but none guarantee that you will be accepted.

Whew, long winded post done.

 

[NJDIF]

people automatically suggest DO because you cant get into allopathic schools with low scores.

you can get into DO schools with low scores.

whats not to get?

 

[RySerr21]

I'm pre-allo b/c I'm interested in what an MD does... I'm hoping most DOs are DOs because they're interested in what they're doing.

~ just something I noticed on the boards

you do realize that MDs and DOs do the EXACT same thing........ with the exception of OMM

 

[167649]

you do realize that MDs and DOs do the EXACT same thing........ with the exception of OMM

👍 Yeah, and most DO's don't even do OMM.

OP: what is it you think and MD does differently than a DO? To answer your original quesion, most people could care less which one to go to, they just want to be physicians and it makes almost no difference which degree you get. In fact, carribean MD's have a much, much harder time securing a US residency than a US trained DO. So for most people DO is by far the better option and caribbean is a last resort.

 

[Maxprime]

I'm shocked an appalled that anyone in this process would play the game and do something they don't believe in just to become a doctor . . . shocked.

 

[RySerr21]

Sure, there are a few with averages that make me cringe. I don't want to badmouth any specific schools, but some of them are so low as to be unacceptable to me. I don't think that any school should have an average MCAT of 24, yet they are out there.

i know you arent bashing DOs based on the stuff you wrote before this, but, you do realize that MCAT scores (as well as undergrad GPAs) have no correlation whatsoever w/ success as a physcician. they do to some extent predict success in medical school (this is all based on a study i read),but if a school accepts someone with a low mcat score, and they can't handle it, then he/she will not become a doctor and drop out of school. so really the low averages shouldn't make you cringe and shouldn't be labeled as unacceptable, you will more than likely be working with someone with such an MCAT score later in your career and never even know it, as i'm sure the score matters less and less as you move up the medical ladder.

on another note, the difference between average GPA and average MCAT score for all allopathic and osteopathic programs isn't even that much. In 2005 the average mean GPA for osteopathic programs was a 3.45. Whats the allopathic average? 3.6?? greaaaaaaaat. The average MCAT score for osteopathic programs in 2005 was a 25. I'm guessing the average MCAT score for allopathic programs is around a 28? Maybe even 27, possibly 29 bu i doubt. I could be wrong. But really, based on what i said in the previous paragraph, it doesnt predict anything as far as success as a physician.

the stats i just quoted came from the official osteopathic medical college information book for 2008 taken from the AACOMAS website.

 

[BlackSails]

i know you arent bashing DOs based on the stuff you wrote before this, but, you do realize that MCAT scores (as well as undergrad GPAs) have no correlation whatsoever w/ success as a physcician. they do to some extent predict success in medical school (this is all based on a study i read),but if a school accepts someone with a low mcat score, and they can't handle it, then he/she will not become a doctor and drop out of school. so really the low averages shouldn't make you cringe and shouldn't be labeled as unacceptable, you will more than likely be working with someone with such an MCAT score later in your career and never even know it, as i'm sure the score matters less and less as you move up the medical ladder.

on another note, the difference between average GPA and average MCAT score for all allopathic and osteopathic programs isn't even that much. In 2005 the average mean GPA for osteopathic programs was a 3.45. Whats the allopathic average? 3.6?? greaaaaaaaat. The average MCAT score for osteopathic programs in 2005 was a 25. I'm guessing the average MCAT score for allopathic programs is around a 28? Maybe even 27, possibly 29 bu i doubt. I could be wrong. But really, based on what i said in the previous paragraph, it doesnt predict anything as far as success as a physician.

the stats i just quoted came from the official osteopathic medical college information book for 2008 taken from the AACOMAS website.

In 2007, the average GPA for an allopathic matriculant was 3.65 +/- .26, and the average MCAT was 30.8

 

[zpiff]

It's stuff like this that makes SDN a pretty stressful place I feel.

Yet I keep coming back. It's getting addicting!

 

[sicko]

It's stuff like this that makes SDN a pretty stressful place I feel.

Yet I keep coming back. It's getting addicting!

They keep changing the thread titles but it all boils down to MD vs DO endless battle. It's time to put an end to this. If you are so addicted, feel free to dig up old threads. Why do I even go in here... arrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!

 

[timurx]

I'd like to not think that DO schools are full of people who didn't make it to pre-allo.

As much as I' d like to think this as well, it is just plain untrue. It is a known fact that the VAST majority of DO applicants/matriculants apply not necessarily because of the philosphy or any deeper issue for that matter, but simply because they are much less selective in the admissions process. This is fact.

What bothers me about this issue is that I read a lot about DO supposedly choosing people based on factors other than numbers, aka they prefer to "look at the whole person"...the problem with this arguement is that it presumes that MD schools are number-based. It is my opinion that MD schools are also equally interested in the "whole person" in addition to expecting high numbers as well (certainly with some degree of variation among allo schools). "Looking at the whole person" and "looking at numbers" are not two mutually exclusive things, it just that it appears many DO schools ephemistically adverstise such statements as "looking beyond the numbers". Lets call a spade, a spade.

Of course, in an ideal world, there would only be one degree, because i think the DO and MD comparisons are uncalled for and pathetic.

 

[xanthomondo]

i know you arent bashing DOs based on the stuff you wrote before this, but, you do realize that MCAT scores (as well as undergrad GPAs) have no correlation whatsoever w/ success as a physcician. they do to some extent predict success in medical school (this is all based on a study i read),but if a school accepts someone with a low mcat score, and they can't handle it, then he/she will not become a doctor and drop out of school. so really the low averages shouldn't make you cringe and shouldn't be labeled as unacceptable, you will more than likely be working with someone with such an MCAT score later in your career and never even know it, as i'm sure the score matters less and less as you move up the medical ladder.

on another note, the difference between average GPA and average MCAT score for all allopathic and osteopathic programs isn't even that much. In 2005 the average mean GPA for osteopathic programs was a 3.45. Whats the allopathic average? 3.6?? greaaaaaaaat. The average MCAT score for osteopathic programs in 2005 was a 25. I'm guessing the average MCAT score for allopathic programs is around a 28? Maybe even 27, possibly 29 bu i doubt. I could be wrong. But really, based on what i said in the previous paragraph, it doesnt predict anything as far as success as a physician.

the stats i just quoted came from the official osteopathic medical college information book for 2008 taken from the AACOMAS website.

lol your "guessing" seems to be as good as your spelling 😉

 

[ryandote]

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[RySerr21]

lol your "guessing" seems to be as good as your spelling 😉

great. focus on my typo and poke fun that thats how i think the word is actually spelled.

 

[RySerr21]

Not quite. MD's don't apply to DO residencies... and DO's don't get accepted to as many competitive. Sorry, it's true. (note that I used the subjective word "competitive" so that I would be able to defend my post from ANY attacks, so don't even try)

the way they practice medicine is EXACTLY the same. that was my point. the fact MDs can't go to DO residency programs is beside the point. they are practicing the same medicine.

To me, "success" depends on the residency you can land and then complete. If you happen to be fascinated by a more "competitive" residency, then you are at a disadvantage coming from a DO school. It's not impossible, but you ARE at a disadvantage.

i guess i am not fascinated by the most "competitive" residency programs. i know i will work hard no matter what med school i go to and that i will get into a good residency, whether i have a disadvantage or not b/c of the school i go to. think of it as overcoming a greater obstacle if you will.

Check the AAMC website before you quote any more stats. There is definitely a statistically significant difference between DO and MD averages on the MCAT.

i never said there wasnt a difference between DO and MD MCAT scores. i said it doesnt predict whether you will be a good doctor or not.

 

[ryandote]

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[RySerr21]

Okay. When DO and MD physicians are working in the same field, they practice similar medicine (except for that wacky OMM crap).

thats my entire point. most DOs dont even practice OMM. and truthfully, your opinion that it is crap is worthless. what do you base it on? if i took 100 orthopedic surgeons, a random number of DO and MD, and you sat in on the patient visits. you would not be able to tell me which one was a DO and which one was an MD. you are lying to yourself if you think otherwise

I'm pretty sure they don't do the EXACT same thing. I've already pointed out why. Next:

you still havent given me a difference in how they PRACTICE medicine. you pointed an extra option that DOs have on their career path (a DO residency).

you are even more wrong to think that DO applicants are just as competitive (on average).

to assume that you are more competetive ("on average&quot😉 just because you go to an MD school is pretty arrogant and 100% wrong.

Do you realize that your previous posts are RIGHT ABOVE YOUR MOST RECENT? The whole forum can see what you said and what you didn't say.

yes i do. i stated there was a difference, just not a big one. look at the post RIGHT ABOVE THIS ONE. i even gave the numbers and you can clearly see there is a difference. that was only one part of my argument.


this argument is getting redundant. i'm not even going to check this thread anymore b/c its irritating.

 

[ryandote]

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[ChubbyChaser]

It is crap because it isn't evidence-based. No quality, peer-reviewed evidence shows that it fixes anything but mechanical problem (for which typical physicians can order therapeutic massage).

I said they aren't EXACTLY the same: OMM + opportunities. I actually agree that practice is similar, it's the weird stuff they teach in school that isn't. Don't they take a few courses on homeopathy and chiropractics?

It's probably not the MD I will earn that makes me more competitive, it's the qualities that helped me get into the MD school that make me more competitive. I know that's some tricky logic, but think it through. Plus, arrogance is spelled with an "a" and I don't really have to defend whether MD acceptees are "better" (higher MCAT and GPA) because those numbers (MCAT and GPA) say it themselves.

Finally, you know you will read this thread again but you won't have the fortitude to comment.

The Gpa and MCATs are averages. I am sure there are plenty of DOs that had higher gpas or Mcat scores than you. Just lighten up a bit, all might ryan.

 

[ryandote]

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[scowdeva]

Just for the record, there are not classes on homeopathy or chiropractics. Either you are trolling, or you are truly that clueless about your profession. If you honestly just don't know, then I would suggest you do a quick Google search before you discredit your point by making statements like that. If you are really that dense to believe that DO are chiropractors or the like, then you probably shouldn't be insinuating about how you are smarter than DOs because you earned an MD, because you would like everyone to assume that you had a higher MCAT than any DO, and therefore that makes you a superior physician. I bet you'll be really popular among your peers if that is truly your attitude...

 

[VictorsLilSecrt]

I'm shocked an appalled that anyone in this process would play the game and do something they don't believe in just to become a doctor . . . shocked.

I'm not sure what exactly the game is, but I'll be more than happy to play it. Pick me.

 

[superfan56]

the way they practice medicine is EXACTLY the same. that was my point. the fact MDs can't go to DO residency programs is beside the point. they are practicing the same medicine.

I'm on the fence about this statement simply because I was asked this same question at a DO interview. I responded saying that at the end of the day, yeah the diagnosis and treatment could be the same, but as a different philosophy, shouldn't DO's approach be completely different? Isn't that the point of DO's breaking off from MD's to begin with? The fundamental difference should be there. Maybe not?

It is crap because it isn't evidence-based. No quality, peer-reviewed evidence shows that it fixes anything but mechanical problem (for which typical physicians can order therapeutic massage).

I said they aren't EXACTLY the same: OMM + opportunities. I actually agree that practice is similar, it's the weird stuff they teach in school that isn't. Don't they take a few courses on homeopathy and chiropractics?

Chiropractics was formed out of a DO flunk out, it's not the same as OMM. As far as being evidence based, I think it's one of the things holding OMM back in being recognized.

 

[VictorsLilSecrt]

people automatically suggest DO because you cant get into allopathic schools with low scores.

you can get into DO schools with low scores.

whats not to get?

👍

For some reason, DO wannabees fight this with a fury. Well, not exactly "for some reason...."

 

[scowdeva]

I think the reason these threads annoy me is that both sides make sweeping generalizations. Like, the only people that are ever DOs are there because they couldn't cut it in the allo world. Of course, there are people in DO schools that have scores that keep them from applying to MD schools. This is not always the case.

There are truly some of us out there that could care less what the letters after our names are. I know part of it is the area that we come from- in my hometown, virtually all of the doctors are DOs and no one cares. In other areas, there are few if any DOs so people dont see the day in day out similarities in what they do. There are truly such minute differences that they are imperceptible.

Yes, osteo was founded on different principles. But it was also founded 150 years ago. Both allo and osteo medicine has changed a lot since then, and I dont believe that any certain 'kind' of person is attracted to either school. I know that I will choose my school based on where I feel most at home, where has the best facilities, where I am most likely to achieve my personal goals, but most certainly not by the letters that will be stitched on the coat. Honestly, in the real world, no one cares!

 

[ryandote]

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[ryandote]

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[the10isplyr]

However, it is important to remember is that many students hope to pursue a career in healthcare...healing the sick, touching lives, ...an altruistic profession. Sometimes, then, DO is a more suitable option, as most MD schools have rigorous (often unfair) statistical cut-offs.

Hey,
i don't understand. how is a DO a more altruistic option?? I can't imagine competition or academic rigor getting in the way of "healing the sick, touching lives". maybe I'm wrong?

 

[Animus]

It is crap because it isn't evidence-based. No quality, peer-reviewed evidence shows that it fixes anything but mechanical problem (for which typical physicians can order therapeutic massage).

There are actually plenty of studies done about OMM especially in England I believe. Does this fit as evidence-based medicine to you?

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q...tive+medicine&hl=en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&oi=scholart

 

[ryandote]

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[scowdeva]

I have absolutely no form of inferiority complex whatsoever, and yes sarcasm does not translate well on the internet. However, whether it is your intent or not, your posts do have a tone of assumptions about DOs being less desirable simply because they are "statistically" disadvantaged for competitive residencies. I guess if I was particularly into derm, then I may have a different attitude. I acknowledged the fact that I have a different background, and with having an interest in primary care I am even less interested in what crazy competitive residencies are out there. I don't know if I will be an MD or a DO yet, so I don't think I really side one way or the other. It is just frustrating to come across these attitudes over and over again in what is supposed to be a forum of my future colleagues. It is just descrimination at the expense of others in order for some sick kind of self-validation on the side of the hard-core-allo-or-die-premed. I probably should just let it go, but ya know how you have those pet peeves that you just can't ignore when they're in front of you??

 

[ryandote]

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[scowdeva]

Oh, and to add, I am from a major city. Yes, it is a hell hole of a city, but it isn't some podunk backwater. Also, there are specific derm residencies for DOs if that is your thing. Plus, if they are a competitive student, they can apply for MD derm residencies. Are they guaranteed to get one, an MD? Not at all. But that is more on the student than the degree. If they graduate with the scores and a 260 Step I, then they deserve it as much as the next guy.

Also, if I made some sort of personal attack, that was not my intent. I was simply meaning to clarify how your posts were coming across to people who were just reading through them.

 

[Animus]

I'm sorry, but I didn't say there were no studies "done." I said :

It is crap because it isn't evidence-based. No quality, peer-reviewed evidence shows that it fixes anything but mechanical problem (for which typical physicians can order therapeutic massage).



I will now copy/paste part of the abstract from the very first study you link, which abstract shows results that OMM is useless.

It's a bad idea to link a study without reading the results....



Results: As compared with the no-intervention control subjects, the patients who received osteopathic manipulative treatment reported greater improvements in back pain, greater satisfaction with back care throughout the trial, better physical functioning and mental health at 1 month, and fewer cotreatments at 6 months. The subjects who received sham manipulation also reported greater improvements in back pain and physical functioning and greater satisfaction than the no-intervention control subjects. There were no significant benefits with osteopathic manipulative treatment, as compared with sham manipulation.
Conclusions: Osteopathic manipulative treatment and sham manipulation both appear to provide some benefits when used in addition to usual care for the treatment of chronic nonspecific low back pain. It remains unclear whether the benefits of osteopathic manipulative treatment can be attributed to the manipulative techniques themselves or whether they are related to other aspects of osteopathic manipulative treatment, such as range of motion activities or time spent interacting with patients, which may represent placebo effects.

Just because some of the studies show that it does not always work has nothing to do with the fact that there are plenty of people out there doing studies that are being reviewed to give more evidence to the work of OMM.

But to call it crap and compare it to ordering a massage was ignorant enough to give you away originally anyway.

 

[uglyjohn]

There are truly some of us out there that could care less what the letters after our names are. I know part of it is the area that we come from- in my hometown, virtually all of the doctors are DOs and no one cares. In other areas, there are few if any DOs so people dont see the day in day out similarities in what they do. There are truly such minute differences that they are imperceptible.

I do care because 90% of people in my area have never heard of the word "osteopathy" and 9 out of 10 have no idea what a DO is. You can say that just because people are ignorant doesn't mean you're a lesser doctor, but hey, if I have a private practice and just a couple of them show up because the rest of the town have no idea what the hec a DO is then hell, I'd rather not to have the letters D.O. behind my name at all, just simply Dr. XYZ, Family Practice/Internal Medicine.

 

[VictorsLilSecrt]

My younger brother got a very low mcat (19). I told him to go DO. He got in this cycle. All's well that ends well.

Sometimes I wish I had encouraged him to retake, because being minority and just a little better on the mcat would have probably gotten him an MD spot.

 

[ChubbyChaser]

My younger brother got a very low mcat (19). I told him to go DO. He got in this cycle. All's well that ends well.

Sometimes I wish I had encouraged him to retake, because being minority and just a little better on the mcat would have probably gotten him an MD spot.

O lord lets not go the AA route, this thread already has enough flaming going on as is.

 

[ryandote]

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[uglyjohn]

O lord lets not go the AA route, this thread already has enough flaming going on as is.

amwatts, I thought you have changed your avatar from "fat guys in tights" to "snowman with a hair dryer". How come you're back to fat people again?

 

[scowdeva]

I hear ya, buddy. You just described my last 2 hours!

I know that I'll be working next to DO's some day, and I'll have respect for every single one of my colleagues until they piss it away in front of my eyes. I absolutely agree that scores are not the best way to measure physicians, and my MCAT score will never do another thing for me again.

I suppose I just imagine myself an internet crusader for truth, stamping out statistic-less claims and hoping to provide complete information for everybody to make decisions from. Plus a little anonymous-internet-'tude that I need to work out my school stress now and then.

Best of luck, dude.

Haha, feel free to work that stress out! I certainly don't mind. I do have to admit, though, that I'm not a guy...even though it makes me smile to think of how you are picturing me!! I really wasn't going for personal attacks, I find conversations like this interesting because it makes you think of your opinion in a new way if nothing else gets accomplished.

And I second the request to not go down the AA road. Boooooring!

 

[ryandote]

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[ChubbyChaser]

amwatts, I thought you have changed your avatar from "fat guys in tights" to "snowman with a hair dryer". How come you're back to fat people again?

Come join the 2-7am thread discussions and you will know

 

[pakbabydoll]

They are the same thing! Its not like people are suggesting that since you got low MCAT scores you should be a nurse/PA. Unless you care about the two initials after your name, I don't think it matters weather you are a DO or a MD. Heck most people don't even ask their doctor weather he is DO or MD. Our family doctor is DO and I did not even know what DO was till I came here.

 

[Obnoxious Dad]

My younger brother got a very low mcat (19). I told him to go DO. He got in this cycle. All's well that ends well.

Sometimes I wish I had encouraged him to retake, because being minority and just a little better on the mcat would have probably gotten him an MD spot.

Frankly I find it hard to believe that anyone got in with a 19. Would you be good enough to state which school accepted him?

 

[ryandote]

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[ChubbyChaser]

I think this Victorslilsecret girl is FOS, and should be banned.