Low Tier DO school

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Balantidiumcoli said:
I happen to think that if you do get into med school in the United States that what an individual gets out of it is mostly due to what she makes out of it but like I said different schools may have better resources she can utilize as well which may not be available everywhere (such as quality rotations).
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The "quality" of a rotation comes down to the attending you are paired with and how enthusiastic they are about teaching you. Not the prestigue of the hospital or clinic you are rotating at.

For example: I rotated at a large hospital that had a "good reputation" all the lastest equipment, blah, blah, blah. I was assigned to a male chauvanist pig of an attending who didn't believe I should have any time off and it was "my duty" to be at his beck and call. So my day on that rotation started with morning report at 7am and then the rest of it was spent in the library until he called me to round at 4pm. Rounding consisted of me listening as to how women shouldn't doctors since he had stay at home wife, and a housekeeper, and nanny and how dare I expect to got home at 6pm to take care of my own kids because my husbnad worked the night shift. I will tell you that guy got raves from all the male students who rotated with him and I couldn't get away fast enough.

Now, I did a rotation at another hospital that everyone was afraid to do because the President of our medical school was the attending and everyone feared him. I tell you the hours were long and the day started early. I have to tell you I learned so much there and actually had a pretty good time overall. Go figure?

So "quality rotation" AGAIN, comes down to the individual's experience and you never know what you are walking into until you get there.
 
Balantidiumcoli said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsessive–compulsive_personality_disorder

Don't play this game with me son. You can't win. :meanie:
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pretty sure you're arguing with a psych resident.

as for the topic of this thread, lumping all DO schools into one class is ridiculous. the reality is that some DO schools are better than others; however, there are no official rankings which is where a lot of the argument comes from. the design of the curriculum, pre-clinical training, resources, connections, reputation etc. vary among all med schools whether it is DO or MD.
 
diagonal said:
OCPD is not OCD. I did just win.
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Hmm... well I was definitely referring to the AXIS II Dx but shucks, off by a letter. But since I was off by 1/4 I say I was 75% victorious. 😀

Kidding aside, fair point and well played. 👍
 
Balantidiumcoli said:
Hmm... well I was definitely referring to the AXIS II Dx but shucks, off by a letter. But since I was off by 1/4 I say I was 75% victorious. 😀

Kidding aside, fair point and well played. 👍
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😴
 
Balantidiumcoli said:
Hmm... well I was definitely referring to the AXIS II Dx but shucks, off by a letter. But since I was off by 1/4 I say I was 75% victorious. 😀

Kidding aside, fair point and well played. 👍
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south_park_scott_tenorman.jpg
 
An inferior wanna feel superior among the inferiors.
 
mnhockeyfan said:
There are big differences between DO schools IMO. The schools you listed have better resources, history, and opportunities for students than other schools. Im not saying those schools are prestigious but they are better (again in my own opinion) than others.

BUT medical school is what YOU make of it.
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SDN at its best. Look at this user's post history. This person is not even in medical school.
 
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Mbeas said:
pretty sure you're arguing with a psych resident.

as for the topic of this thread, lumping all DO schools into one class is ridiculous. the reality is that some DO schools are better than others; however, there are no official rankings which is where a lot of the argument comes from. the design of the curriculum, pre-clinical training, resources, connections, reputation etc. vary among all med schools whether it is DO or MD.
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From my interviews, all DO schools are basically the same and most, if.not.everyone, assumes you couldn't get into a medical school. It doesn't seem to be an issue really, though. They say stuff like that to me and then they say we'd love to have you here.

On 2 of my 20 something interviews, one interviewer said something positive about my school.

In real life, however, some DO schools are better than others. It mainly has to do with clinical rotations.
 
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CallMeDoctorLov said:
SDN at its best. Look at this user's post history. This person is not even in medical school.
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He stated that these were his opinions and again, that med school is what you make of it. I don't understand why some are arguing that there are no tiers in DO schools. Obviously there aren't HUGE differences between the schools and a go-getter is going to be successful no matter where they end up. But I have no doubt that some schools (I.e. the more established ones) have a leg up on the others as far as reputation, including match rates, rotation sites, etc.
And this is a pre-med forum where the majority of posters giving their opinions are pre-med. If you're going to harp on him for sharing then harp on the rest of us too.
 
ladybug1552 said:
He stated that these were his opinions and again, that med school is what you make of it. I don't understand why some are arguing that there are no tiers in DO schools. Obviously there aren't HUGE differences between the schools and a go-getter is going to be successful no matter where they end up. But I have no doubt that some schools (I.e. the more established ones) have a leg up on the others as far as reputation, including match rates, rotation sites, etc.
And this is a pre-med forum where the majority of posters giving their opinions are pre-med. If you're going to harp on him for sharing then harp on the rest of us too.
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United we stand, divided we fall.
 
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OP, just listen to cabinbuilder, the only one on here who has gone through the entire process of becoming a physician and speaks from experience.
 
anyone who says that tiers do not exist is fooling themselves. For example, how could you honestly state that two DO schools (lets say MSU and RVU)-- one part of a huge public university with a huge OPTI and co-located with an MD school, and the other a free-standing for-profit school founded by the same family that owns AUC, are on the same level?
 
user3 said:
anyone who says that tiers do not exist is fooling themselves. For example, how could you honestly state that two DO schools (lets say MSU and RVU)-- one part of a huge public university with a huge OPTI and co-located with an MD school, and the other a free-standing for-profit school founded by the same family that owns AUC, are on the same level?
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The same way you tell someone with a 23 and <3.3 that they are competitive.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
 
MedPR said:
The same way you tell someone with a 23 and <3.3 that they are competitive.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
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haha...fair enough :laugh:


user3 said:
anyone who says that tiers do not exist is fooling themselves. For example, how could you honestly state that two DO schools (lets say MSU and RVU)-- one part of a huge public university with a huge OPTI and co-located with an MD school, and the other a free-standing for-profit school founded by the same family that owns AUC, are on the same level?
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While I agree with you that there are obviously some schools with more to offer than others, when it comes down to it, it doesn't seem to matter as much as I initially thought.

What matters more is residency training, and while one school may prepare you a bit better than others (debatable), it seems that it really comes down to your audition rotations, board scores and letters of recommendation (and greased to some point of course)

A lot of this comes down to self-seletion...not so much the school you go to. The schools with the resources will attract more students who over overachieve, but that speaks more to the student than the school.
 
HalfListic said:
haha...fair enough :laugh:





While I agree with you that there are obviously some schools with more to offer than others, when it comes down to it, it doesn't seem to matter as much as I initially thought.

What matters more is residency training, and while one school may prepare you a bit better than others (debatable), it seems that it really comes down to your audition rotations, board scores and letters of recommendation (and greased to some point of course)

A lot of this comes down to self-seletion...not so much the school you go to. The schools with the resources will attract more students who over overachieve, but that speaks more to the student than the school.
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Yea from what I've gathered, the top AOA programs won't snub people from lesser-DO schools the same way that top ACGME programs do with lesser-MDs.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
 
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cliquesh said:
In real life, however, some DO schools are better than others. It mainly has to do with clinical rotations.
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This is more along the lines of what I'm referring to. From a residency directors point of view (especially ACGME), they may all be equal and this might become an issue in 2015 for DO students.

All I'm saying is that DO schools vary greatly (especially with clinicals, like you mentioned), and that newer schools=/=older, established schools. There are unofficial, vaguely defined tiers for DO schools but they do exist.
 
This is the type of thread I would comment on.




So here I am.
 
MedPR said:
Yea from what I've gathered, the top AOA programs won't snub people from lesser-DO schools the same way that top ACGME programs do with lesser-MDs.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
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I agree with this statement
 
MedPR said:
Yea from what I've gathered, the top AOA programs won't snub people from lesser-DO schools the same way that top ACGME programs do with lesser-MDs.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
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That's because, functionally speaking, there is no such thing as lesser-DO schools. Hence the whole argument in this thread.

Mayo vs Meharry. Clear difference.

DMU vs RVU (sorry RVU). No honest difference.
 
diagonal said:
That's because, functionally speaking, there is no such thing as lesser-DO schools. Hence the whole argument in this thread.

Mayo vs Meharry. Clear difference.

DMU vs RVU (sorry RVU). No honest difference.
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I would argue that students at DMU are of higher quality than the students at KYCOM. Imo that makes KYCOM a lesser school.

However, I understand that there are infinite ways to argue for and against the existance of "lesser" DO schools and it would be pointless to explore them all.
 
MedPR said:
I would argue that students at DMU are of higher quality than the students at KYCOM. Imo that makes KYCOM a lesser school.

However, I understand that there are infinite ways to argue for and against the existance of "lesser" DO schools and it would be pointless to explore them all.
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I won't disagree with that, BUT, you put some random dude into Mayo, in spite of his qualifications, and he will have a world of opportunity opened to him. THAT is prestige. THAT is what Top Tier gets you. No such analogy exists in the DO world. And that's my point. No DO school's name will give you anything. It's all on you.

What's really going on here is that a bunch of pre-meds that aren't getting into MD schools are providing themselves solace with the notion that they're still earning prestige by going to a TOP DO school. Perhaps it's so "top" that they can convince friends and family that's it's better than this MD school they were "considering." So the story goes.
 
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diagonal said:
I won't disagree with that, BUT, you put some random dude into Mayo, in spite of his qualifications, and he will have a world of opportunity opened to him. THAT is prestige. THAT is what Top Tier gets you. No such analogy exists in the DO world. And that's my point. No DO school's name will give you anything. It's all on you.
What's really going on here is that a bunch of pre-meds that aren't getting into MD schools are providing themselves solace with the notion that they're still earning prestige by going to a TOP DO school. Perhaps it's so "top" that they can convince friends and family that's it's better than this MD school they were "considering." So the story goes.
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Yes, I definitely agree with that.
 
diagonal said:
I won't disagree with that, BUT, you put some random dude into Mayo, in spite of his qualifications, and he will have a world of opportunity opened to him. THAT is prestige. THAT is what Top Tier gets you. No such analogy exists in the DO world. And that's my point. No DO school's name will give you anything. It's all on you.

What's really going on here is that a bunch of pre-meds that aren't getting into MD schools are providing themselves solace with the notion that they're still earning prestige by going to a TOP DO school. Perhaps it's so "top" that they can convince friends and family that's it's better than this MD school they were "considering." So the story goes.
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Not entirely true me thinks...(but I get what you are saying)


There are different qualities of schools, but all are fine. Also, there are a range of students at each school, with the better school attracting more higher performing students.

But the top 10% of each DO school is pretty much in the same place
 
diagonal said:
I won't disagree with that, BUT, you put some random dude into Mayo, in spite of his qualifications, and he will have a world of opportunity opened to him. THAT is prestige. THAT is what Top Tier gets you. No such analogy exists in the DO world. And that's my point. No DO school's name will give you anything. It's all on you.

What's really going on here is that a bunch of pre-meds that aren't getting into MD schools are providing themselves solace with the notion that they're still earning prestige by going to a TOP DO school. Perhaps it's so "top" that they can convince friends and family that's it's better than this MD school they were "considering." So the story goes.
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I agree with you on the top paragraph.

The second paragraph...not so much. I don't know any DO med students or pre-meds that go around making the claims that you assume they may make.
 
It's not about prestige --- but it's foolish to deny there are differences in rotations and student support.

Let's take UMDNJ-SOM.

UMDNJ-SOM =/= PNWU.

PNWU sent student to surgery rotation taught by a nurse, said student later had to ask people on SDN for help in filling out his residency app. The older DO schools have people to help 4th years in this.

Similarly,

you can't compare MSU-COM with LECOM (name branch here).

or UNTHSC/TCOM with Touro (whatever Touro branch, Harlem/Nevada whatever)

or PCOM with everyone's favorite: ACOM (dean arrested for DUI)!!!!!!

etc etc.
 
ViqarH said:
It's not about prestige --- but it's foolish to deny there are differences in rotations and student support.

Let's take UMDNJ-SOM.

UMDNJ-SOM =/= PNWU.

PNWU sent student to surgery rotation taught by a nurse, said student later had to ask people on SDN for help in filling out his residency app. The older DO schools have people to help 4th years in this.

Similarly,

you can't compare MSU-COM with LECOM (name branch here).

or UNTHSC/TCOM with Touro (whatever Touro branch, Harlem/Nevada whatever)

or PCOM with everyone's favorite: ACOM (dean arrested for DUI)!!!!!!

etc etc.
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You really think that surgery rotation "taught" by a physician is any different? That's the problem with DO schools, they aren't staffed by people with a vested/genuine interest in teaching medical students. 90% of your attendings on DO rotations won't even acknowledge your presence. They're either in it for a paycheck, or they're just part of an institution that happens to house med students, in which case they let the residents do the grunt work of talking to you and answering your questions.
 
diagonal said:
You really think that surgery rotation "taught" by a physician is any different? That's the problem with DO schools, they aren't staffed by people with a vested/genuine interest in teaching medical students. 90% of your attendings on DO rotations won't even acknowledge your presence. They're either in it for a paycheck, or they're just part of an institution that happens to house med students, in which case they let the residents do the grunt work of talking to you and answering your questions.
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Ohhhhh quite the claim. Have you rotated through 100% of all the DO school's rotations with every doctor available?


Just trying to point out that you are making blanket statements that obviously you (nor anyone else for that matter) cannot back up.
 
abolt18 said:
Ohhhhh quite the claim. Have you rotated through 100% of all the DO school's rotations with every doctor available?


Just trying to point out that you are making blanket statements that obviously you (nor anyone else for that matter) cannot back up.
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👍

Give us some credible stats or relevant experience, diagonal, or GTFO
 
abolt18 said:
Ohhhhh quite the claim. Have you rotated through 100% of all the DO school's rotations with every doctor available?


Just trying to point out that you are making blanket statements that obviously you (nor anyone else for that matter) cannot back up.
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You have no idea what you're talking about, that much I know for sure. The fact that you even think who your preceptor is has any relevance tells me so. All learning in medical school is done on your own. No one - no surgeon, no nurse, nobody - provides you anything other than exposure to patients.
 
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diagonal said:
You have no idea what you're talking about, that much I know for sure. The fact that you even think who your preceptor is has any relevance tells me so. All learning in medical school is done on your own. No one - no surgeon, no nurse, nobody - provides you anything other than exposure to patients.
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I have made no such claim, neither that the preceptor has any relevance, nor that x, y, or z person teaches you.

You said 90% of your attendings won't acknowledge your presence.

I pointed out that you cannot possibly know this, so why say it?


SOOOO the fact that you made up this whole conversation of what you think I said like saying "the fact that you think.... blah blah" and saying I have no idea what I'm talking about just indicates that YOU sir/ma'am are unaware of what you're talking about because I didn't even talk about any learning from preceptors.
 
I think diagonal is a resident?
 
diagonal said:
You really think that surgery rotation "taught" by a physician is any different? That's the problem with DO schools, they aren't staffed by people with a vested/genuine interest in teaching medical students. 90% of your attendings on DO rotations won't even acknowledge your presence. They're either in it for a paycheck, or they're just part of an institution that happens to house med students, in which case they let the residents do the grunt work of talking to you and answering your questions.
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Do you know what a resident and attending have in common? They are both physicians and that makes a fundamental difference between a resident or nurse doing the "grunt work" of teaching.

You're right that most of the teaching is self-taught and that anyone can describe the pathology of a disease. But, the thing that a nurse or mid-level provider can't do is provide guidance from the 10,000' view that doctors are "supposed" to have. Why else would we go through so much training before we're allowed to work on our own? It isn't about knowledge, it's about decision making skills. It helps if you and your teacher share the same perspective.
 
MedPR said:
I think diagonal is a resident?
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Even if that was diagonal's experience with attendings on rotations, that is n=1 and does not make this valid for all school or all rotation sites at a school.
 
diagonal said:
You have no idea what you're talking about, that much I know for sure. The fact that you even think who your preceptor is has any relevance tells me so. All learning in medical school is done on your own. No one - no surgeon, no nurse, nobody - provides you anything other than exposure to patients.
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My experience completely invalidates this claim. I'm not even on rotations yet (OMS-II) but my school places us in a 2nd year "clinical experience" where we spend a few hours per week practicing our physical diagnosis skills and trying to apply what we've learned so far in our systems courses. I'm assigned to a busy private family practice right now and I'm confident that nobody there really technically has the time to shake my hand, much less teach me anything. And I'm pretty sure my school doesn't pay my preceptor enough to offset the cost of having me slow him down either.

But you know what? I'm getting an awesome experience. My preceptor is very invested in giving me quality opportunities to see pathology, conduct physical examination, collect histories and practice presenting findings etc. I think he's genuinely interested in helping support the up and coming generation of DO's.

I even saw an extremely atypical patient presentation the other day that I plan on writing up as a case-report for publication. My preceptor even gave me first crack at the diagnosis right there in the room with the patient (and I nailed it).

The level of investment in student education is going to vary from site to site, sure. But claiming that nobody cares about your education is a little sensational don't you think?
 
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abolt18 said:
Even if that was diagonal's experience with attendings on rotations, that is n=1 and does not make this valid for all school or all rotation sites at a school.
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There's no way any single person can validate statements about rotations/residents/attendings. n=1 is as good as it gets especially when its from a resident who has likely experienced these things in 3+ settings. At the end of the day, his opinion is worth more than yours (and mine) since he is further along in the process.
 
MedPR said:
There's no way any single person can validate statements about rotations/residents/attendings. n=1 is as good as it gets especially when its from a resident who has likely experienced these things in 3+ settings. At the end of the day, his opinion is worth more than yours (and mine) since he is further along in the process.
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Just because diagonal is further along in the process does not make his opinions worth more, especially since diagonal is making claims about DO training as a whole when he/she has only experienced one potential outcome.
 
michow87 said:
Just because diagonal is further along in the process does not make his opinions worth more, especially since diagonal is making claims about DO training as a whole when he/she has only experienced one potential outcome.
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While I don't think that diagonal's assessment of things is necessarily correct or representative of most programs, I do think that a resident's opinion (on this topic) should be taken more seriously than a pre-med's opinion. Resident opinion = based on experience. Pre-med opinion = based on fantasies of what medical school will be like.

Edit: People are going to believe what they want and if someone shares an n=1 experience that supports that belief, they will accept it as fact. However, if someone shares an n=1 experience that disagrees with their belief, they will deny it because "n=1 means nothing".
 
MedPR said:
While I don't think that diagonal's assessment of things is necessarily correct or representative of most programs, I do think that a resident's opinion (on this topic) should be taken more seriously than a pre-med's opinion. Resident opinion = based on experience. Pre-med opinion = based on fantasies of what medical school will be like.
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Just wondering, how do we know this person is a resident? Or even human? But really, for all we know this is serenade's special account he uses to trick people into believing he knows more than he does?
 
abolt18 said:
Just wondering, how do we know this person is a resident? Or even human? But really, for all we know this is serenade's special account he uses to trick people into believing he knows more than he does?
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His post history. Obviously it doesn't prove he is a resident, but by the same token there is nothing on SDN that proves michow or SLC are medical students. We just assume that these guys aren't lying about their educational status.
 
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