Lower GPA, top tier school vs High GPA elsewhere

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ms255

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Hi all,

Something I've always been a little fuzzy on is how schools distinguish between GPAs of schools and accounting for grade deflation. I currently attend a school generally hovering in rank between 10-15 and is known for grade deflation(median grade for most science class is a B/B-). That being said, do AdCOMS take this into account? And if so, is there a factor which they use to account for the deflation?

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I currently attend a school generally hovering in rank between 10-15 and is known for grade deflation(median grade for most science class is a B/B-).

Median grade is around a "B"? That sounds like grade inflation. Someone else correct me if I'm wrong...
 
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Hi all,

Something I've always been a little fuzzy on is how schools distinguish between GPAs of schools and accounting for grade deflation. I currently attend a school generally hovering in rank between 10-15 and is known for grade deflation(median grade for most science class is a B/B-). That being said, do AdCOMS take this into account? And if so, is there a factor which they use to account for the deflation?

Median grade is around a "B". That sounds like grade inflation. Someone else correct me if I'm wrong...

It seems like everyone thinks his or her school is world-renowned for grade deflation.
 
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Ask your pre med advisor to look at past applicants gpas/where they got accepted from your university. People on SDN tend to be super critical about differences in undergraduate universities rigor/grading systems, but it is very true! I looked at the stats for my school and most applicants that had at least a 3.3 were extremely successful. Adcoms do note the rigor of undergraduate universities, but it will not make up for a terrible GPA. I would still aim for at least a 3.5 and a very good MCAT.
 
Technically "C" should be a median grade, but it tends to be B-/C+ as most schools. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
 
Hi all,

Something I've always been a little fuzzy on is how schools distinguish between GPAs of schools and accounting for grade deflation. I currently attend a school generally hovering in rank between 10-15 and is known for grade deflation(median grade for most science class is a B/B-). That being said, do AdCOMS take this into account? And if so, is there a factor which they use to account for the deflation?
If this is JHU there is a layman reputation for deflation there. Though I don't think the average is a B....more like a C+
 
This comes up way too often.

Check with your premed office to see what the median gpa and mcat are for accepted applicants from your school and try to stay at or above that.
 
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At my school, Adcom members have no idea who has grade de/inflation. We look at your GPA, period.

Every now and then someone will say about a marginal candidate "but he got a 3.3 at [name school]. That's got to account for something!"

We ponder this for a second or two, and onto the wait list the candidate goes.

If a school is a know feeder, then students get cut some slack, since the product tis a known quantity for performing well at the med school (say, like SUNY SB UG for Cornell or NYU).




Hi all,

Something I've always been a little fuzzy on is how schools distinguish between GPAs of schools and accounting for grade deflation. I currently attend a school generally hovering in rank between 10-15 and is known for grade deflation(median grade for most science class is a B/B-). That being said, do AdCOMS take this into account? And if so, is there a factor which they use to account for the deflation?
 
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B is median? You can't be serious thinking that's grade deflation...
 
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Hi all,

Something I've always been a little fuzzy on is how schools distinguish between GPAs of schools and accounting for grade deflation. I currently attend a school generally hovering in rank between 10-15 and is known for grade deflation(median grade for most science class is a B/B-). That being said, do AdCOMS take this into account? And if so, is there a factor which they use to account for the deflation?
My undergrad (top school, but no obvious reputation for grade deflation), has ~75% acceptance rate for juniors applying with >3.0 sGPA, and ~85% with >3.4 sGPA. total 1st time success rate at 75-80% overall. Might be comparable to your school, seeing as how I don't think you suffer from any deflation either, with a B-average in pre-med pre-reqs.

My sources: just called my former adviser.
 
My UG, a top state school, science classes were 35% C, 20% B, 15% A. Engineering classes were worse. A 3.0 out of the engineering department is extremely impressive. Overall, including fluff classes and majors which grade very easily, the average gpa is ~3.2.

A family friend who used to be an adcom at a major public med school said that there is a consideration for the UG school in terms of GPA, _if_ it is a recognized school, known for deflation.

Also, the MCAT is the great equalizer. Students from an "A- is the average grade" "you get what you pay for" private UG school still take the same MCAT, on the same score curve.
 
These questions are so annoying. The difference due to grade inflation/deflation will not matter if you have a full mastery of the concepts in a class. Ie no matter your school's grading tendencies, you are able to get As. It's not a safe bet to get below a respectable gpa and compensate with undergrad prestige. You need As for med school

Also, if the median is a B then you should really have no trouble stepping up to the A?
 
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Not that it's necessarily relevant here, but remember that median is worthless without standard deviation...
I think you are thinking of mean. Median means half the people get above a B. To me that seems like grade INFLATION.
 
I think most medians are like low B- or C+ at my alma mater and a lot of schools here on SDN...
 
Two things

1) There is a big difference between pre-reqs being curved to a certain grade and upper levels being curved to that grade. I would expect OCHEM to be curved to a B- or lower average. I wouldn't necessarily expect the same kind of curving for upper level classes such as Developmental Biology(although it is certainly possible). I know for my major neuroscience, alot of our upper level neuroscience classes such as Clinical Neurophysiology classes certainly weren't curved so the median was a B-(it was clearly higher). However, the pre-reqs like OCHEM the grades were curved to a C. So it all varies.
2) As a general rule it's probably safe to say in the majority of cases where someone wants to talk about how grade deflated their school is and how much it will be accounted for, the "adjusting" is less than you would like to think. To give a specific number I've seen reference to LizzyM saying one time the most ever given by her school was a 0.2-0.3 adjustment(note this is the absolute most I'm guessing saved for the harshest schools and majors).
 
A 2.7 / B- median is quite low compared to most Top 20s, which are notorious for B+ and even A- median grades. Inflation is relative. Even the most deflated schools nowadays would be considered insanely inflated compared to what was normal fifty years ago.

As gonnif mentioned, the AAMC survey found that for private medical schools selectivity of undergraduate institution was ranked as "highest importance". Selective isn't defined, but Top 10-15 is pretty universally going to count as selective considering the top 1-2%ile median SATs and sub 20% accept rates across the board.

And as always I'll link my own little chart made from the WashU data vs national average data, showing why it makes sense for undergrad to be highly important - people at WashU perform on the MCAT as if they had +0.6 higher GPAs when compared to the national averages

9PLjYC1.png
 
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I think you are thinking of mean. Median means half the people get above a B. To me that seems like grade INFLATION.
Uh no, because you know nothing about the grade distribution on either side of the median other than the fact that the number of values on both sides are equal. You don't know for a B median if that means that 80% of people get Bs, 10% get Cs, and 10% get As. You don't know if that means 20% get Bs 40% get As 30% get Cs and 10% get Ds. You don't know anything other than the fact that 50% get Bs or higher and 50% get Bs or lower. I think we all agree that for med school admissions, Bs are bad in science classes and As are good, so if 80% of people in a class are getting Bs or lower and 10% are getting As (which is completely possible with a B median and is generally what happens at least at my school) is that really inflated?
 
Uh no, because you know nothing about the grade distribution on either side of the median other than the fact that the number of values on both sides are equal. You don't know for a B median if that means that 80% of people get Bs, 10% get Cs, and 10% get As. You don't know if that means 20% get Bs 40% get As 30% get Cs and 10% get Ds. You don't know anything other than the fact that 50% get Bs or higher and 50% get Bs or lower. I think we all agree that for med school admissions, Bs are bad in science classes and As are good, so if 80% of people in a class are getting Bs or lower and 10% are getting As (which is completely possible with a B median and is generally what happens at least at my school) is that really inflated?
A B median will always be inflated relative to a C median
 
Uh no, because you know nothing about the grade distribution on either side of the median other than the fact that the number of values on both sides are equal. You don't know for a B median if that means that 80% of people get Bs, 10% get Cs, and 10% get As. You don't know if that means 20% get Bs 40% get As 30% get Cs and 10% get Ds. You don't know anything other than the fact that 50% get Bs or higher and 50% get Bs or lower. I think we all agree that for med school admissions, Bs are bad in science classes and As are good, so if 80% of people in a class are getting Bs or lower and 10% are getting As (which is completely possible with a B median and is generally what happens at least at my school) is that really inflated?

I don't have anything specific to really base this off of and this is largely anecdotal which is why I wasn't originally going to say this(and usually tend to avoid these anecdotal tangents) but I think it's significant enough here to state it. IMO by and large I find people to overstate grade deflation at their schools in a number of cases

I can absolutely buy OCHEM being curved to a C(it was in mine and many other schools). My Bio, Gen Chem and Calc classes were all curved to C's. But I'm pretty skeptical of this idea of every class particularly the upper levels all being curved to the B- or lower level at the majority of schools. When there is no department regulation on grades from my experience professors who teach upper level classes tend not to care about grade distributions(this wasn't always the case for me but it was a general guideline). From my experience I was a neuroscience and bio double major; many of my upper level neuroscience classes at least 40% of the class got an A and there were definitely some where it was closer to 60%. These were classes like Clinical Neurophys and Developmental Neuro mind you, not some easy fluff. The Bio major is known to be rather stringent on grade distributions and has put many teachers on probation for giving too many high grades at my school but even for them when it came to upper levels these distributions were often very lax. Many of my bio syllabus's would say the class average on the tests is designed to be a 75%. But in reality, the vast majority of these classes the averages were far higher, often the low to mid 80's. For the profs that gave grades based on HW's and presentations, often times the median grade ended up in the high B range.

Bottom line is if every class in science majors had a B-/C+ distribution there would be a TON of people graduating with science GPA's in the 2.5 range. This tends not to happen(the median GPA for Bio graduates at two of the top 20 schools I know a number of people at is in the 3.4 range). The reason is that many of these people find upper level classes where A's are not hard to obtain with proper work. That's also why we see so many of these upward trend posts from people's who's GPA's might not be the greatest. They don't always magically become better students. I know LizzyM has stated its very common to see a sophmore blip in GPA's due to OCHEM and other hard classes. It's not that these students magically become substantially better; it's they find classes junior and senior with less strict grade distributions enforced often times.

Again, I'd be interested to hear others experiences. These are just mine and from many I know well both in State schools and the big top 15 names like Duke and Vanderbilt.
 
@efle @GrapesofRath

Here is what I can say about my school. I go to an Ivy League school, and here is my experience. This is only directly applicable to my school. I do not think my school has a reputation for grade inflation or deflation other than "zomg its ivy therefore its super inflated :heckyeah::heckyeah::heckyeah::heckyeah::banana::banana::banana::hello::horns::horns:"

All of our hard sciences classes (with one exception) were curved to a B median. However, our distributions on these curves were not equivalent for all grades. Our medians were B range as well as our mode. Generally, it looked something like this:

15-20% A/A-
60-80% B+/B/B-
5-15% C+/C/C-
0-5% D/F

It varied depending on the class, but it was generally this. I had one biology class where only 3 people got As and 2 got A-s, but the median was a B. I had another biology class where anyone with a 90%+ raw score was automatically given an A while anyone else was subjected to the curve scaling (so you might get an A with below a 90%, but it's not guaranteed). The median was again a B. I had a third biology class where generally exam scores had medians in the 70s and you were graded based on a curve with the 50% percentile being a B, but the standard deviation on raw scores being very small, so in order to hit the A threshold, you had to score significantly above the median. This was the case with my chemistry classes too, though the median (raw) grades and ranges in chemistry were usually lower than in biology classes by 5-20 points. One chemistry class I took had a B- median about 1/3 times it was offered (when I took it, it was a B median, though friends and underclassmen took it with the B-).

The distribution I presented above is a general trend based off of the histograms that my professors gave to us at the end of each test along with the cutoffs for each grade (they generally gave us A B C D cutoffs without the +s and -s except in certain circumstances or if you asked them where you stood because you were on the border).

Most of our grades came from exams (3-4 total depending on the class) with lab integrated into our class and essentially counting as another exam. For instance, if a class had 3 exams, it would generally be 25% midterm 1, 25% midterm 2, 30% final, 20% lab, or something similar to that. In some cases, 1-2% would be "clicker" questions, which nearly everyone got because at my school, nearly everyone comes to class all the time (even when these clicker questions don't exist). Our exams are all made by our professors and come from their lectures, notes they write on the blackboards, and powerpoints (in classes that had them). In my experience, all my bio classes had powerpoints while my chem and physics classes were all written on the blackboard (so if you missed a class you had to get notes from a friend), though things were also written on the board in most of my bio classes in addition to the powerpoints, which made note-taking vital.

Now, with all this said, we see that you had to score in the top two deciles in pre-med heavy classes at one of the best schools in the country that is packed to the brim with ambitious, bright, motivated, and disciplined students. These students were all gunning for As, all (if you feel this is a valuable metric) scored in the top percentiles of the SAT/ACT, all invested a ton of effort in these classes in addition to everything else they needed to do, and yet still you had to outcompete at the very least 80% of them to even get an A-. Thus, in order to match the national median for accepted students to MD schools, you had to consistently be outperforming 80% of equally talented premed students whose big claim to fame is that they are good at schools. This is far more difficult than some people might expect. Many of these students, at a school with less competition, would be pulling As in these classes, but instead they are getting Bs because 20+% of the premed body performs better than them on these tests.

Now this is only for Biology, Physics, Chemistry. Other departments (including Neuroscience, which has a reputation within my school [or maybe just in my head] for being science for premeds who can't hack it in biology) have much higher department GPA medians. My school put out a departmental report based on overall median for that department and the range was astounding. You had nearly a 0.8 difference between the lowest 5 (which included biology, physics, and chemistry) and the highest 5 (which included stuff like theater and other humanities).

I absolutely do not deny that my school is inflated in the humanities and parts of the social sciences (ie everything except our econ department which is also in our bottom 5 and the psych department). Medians in many many many humanities classes are A or A- (with some B+s thrown in there) and I think it's ridiculous. This is why you might commonly see non-science major premeds with cGPAs of 3.7 but sGPAs of 3.2-3.3.

Now, yes, I understand schools like WashU have similar levels of competition, rigor, etc, and yet have C median classes, but I posit that the percentage of students getting As and A-s (ie what really matters when you're applying to medical school) in both cases are similar (somewhere between 10 and 20%), so if you're still at the top of your class, it won't matter either way, but it can hurt more at WashU than at my school if you're in the middle of the pack.

As with WashU, our school's average successful MD stats are different than the national median. The national median is 3.7/31 while for our school, it is around 3.55/33-34 (these numbers are nearly 2 years old now though, as that's the last time I talked to my premed office about this stuff, so it may have changed slightly).

Our tests in the sciences emphasize critical thinking over memorization, and although you won't get too far if you don't know things, you are certainly not going to do very well on our tests. Multiple choice tests? What are those again? Most of my core premed classes had exams with 6-7 questions and 3 hours to complete them in. No (or very little) multiple choice. It was all about using information to figure things out and piece together bits of knowledge until you can come up with a cohesive solution. And although this can be very difficult, it makes the MCAT (at least old MCAT - I have no experience with the new MCAT) science sections essentially a joke. People with 3.4 GPAs would blast the MCAT out of the water without exhaustive studying (again, I'm sure this trend exists across all top schools). I don't think my roommate's science GPA even hit a 3.2, but he did exceptionally on the MCAT (which he took in the middle of a heavy term - the day after a midterm no less) and he got into a top 30 med school (didn't have anything else fancy either). We have an MD acceptance rate upwards of 80% (won't say the exact number) and we absolutely do not screen our applicants in any way (I've been through this process so I know).

So the short answer to "are Ivies inflated" is yes but it's more like yes* because it varies across department and a B median doesn't mean that you're any better off applying to medical school than you would be at a school with C medians instead.

If you have questions about my experience or my response, I'm happy to answer them. I think I explained this fairly well, so I am going to link to this post in my signature and will point people towards it whenever something related to this issue comes up.

Edit: Corollary for further reading - (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...-vs-high-gpa-elsewhere.1151209/#post-16736745)
 
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The "selectivity" bit from the AAMC chart posted above is what bugs me. Like others have mentioned it is poorly defined.

I hate using anecdotal evidence, but at my large public state UG we had a killer engineering program. My senior year roommate was a EE who turned down Northwestern, MIT, Princeton, and Wash U to come to my school. Why did he do it? Cause my school had the engineering program he liked best. He also ended up getting a 3.5 GPA with a B- and C+ in two of his EE classes and is going to be an M2 at Harvard Med this fall. Of course he got a 41 on his MCAT + two FA publications, but if I didn't know any better, I'd say my school's engineering program gets respect from Harvard and the other top notch med schools he got acceptances from.

Likewise, 4.0s from my UGs Liberal Arts/Humanities program often times struggle on the MCAT sciences( at least on the old one). But even the ones who get scores >= 35 on the 'CAT get into some good schools if the other parts of their app are strong.
 
The "selectivity" bit from the AAMC chart posted above is what bugs me. Like others have mentioned it is poorly defined.

I hate using anecdotal evidence, but at my large public state UG we had a killer engineering program. My senior year roommate was a EE who turned down Northwestern, MIT, Princeton, and Wash U to come to my school. Why did he do it? Cause my school had the engineering program he liked best. He also ended up getting a 3.5 GPA with a B- and C+ in two of his EE classes and is going to be an M2 at Harvard Med this fall. Of course he got a 41 on his MCAT + two FA publications, but if I didn't know any better, I'd say my school's engineering program gets respect from Harvard and the other top notch med schools he got acceptances from.

Likewise, 4.0s from my UGs Liberal Arts/Humanities program often times struggle on the MCAT sciences( at least on the old one). But even the ones who get scores >= 35 on the 'CAT get into some good schools if the other parts of their app are strong.

I really think it was the 41 + two first author publications more than your school's engineering department that got him into Harvard med. Not saying that your school's engineering department is bad (there are many state UGs with fantastic engineering programs), but do you think he would have gotten into Harvard with a 33 and no publications? Your roommate proved himself to be a phenomenal student, researcher, and test-taker, traits that medical schools like. I wouldn't attribute his success to the program he was in. I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think this is really an argument that contributes evidence towards that.
 
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@efle @GrapesofRath

Here is what I can say about my school. I go to an Ivy League school, and here is my experience. This is only directly applicable to my school. I do not think my school has a reputation for grade inflation or deflation other than "zomg its ivy therefore its super inflated :heckyeah::heckyeah::heckyeah::heckyeah::banana::banana::banana::hello::horns::horns:"

All of our hard sciences classes (with one exception) were curved to a B median. However, our distributions on these curves were not equivalent for all grades. Our medians were B range as well as our mode. Generally, it looked something like this:

15-20% A/A-
60-80% B+/B/B-
5-15% C+/C/C-
0-5% D/F

It varied depending on the class, but it was generally this. I had one biology class where only 3 people got As and 2 got A-s, but the median was a B. I had another biology class where anyone with a 90%+ raw score was automatically given an A while anyone else was subjected to the curve scaling (so you might get an A with below a 90%, but it's not guaranteed). The median was again a B. I had a third biology class where generally exam scores had medians in the 70s and you were graded based on a curve with the 50% percentile being a B, but the standard deviation on raw scores being very small, so in order to hit the A threshold, you had to score significantly above the median. This was the case with my chemistry classes too, though the median (raw) grades and ranges in chemistry were usually lower than in biology classes by 5-20 points. One chemistry class I took had a B- median about 1/3 times it was offered (when I took it, it was a B median, though friends and underclassmen took it with the B-).

The distribution I presented above is a general trend based off of the histograms that my professors gave to us at the end of each test along with the cutoffs for each grade (they generally gave us A B C D cutoffs without the +s and -s except in certain circumstances or if you asked them where you stood because you were on the border).

Most of our grades came from exams (3-4 total depending on the class) with lab integrated into our class and essentially counting as another exam. For instance, if a class had 3 exams, it would generally be 25% midterm 1, 25% midterm 2, 30% final, 20% lab, or something similar to that. In some cases, 1-2% would be "clicker" questions, which nearly everyone got because at my school, nearly everyone comes to class all the time (even when these clicker questions don't exist). Our exams are all made by our professors and come from their lectures, notes they write on the blackboards, and powerpoints (in classes that had them). In my experience, all my bio classes had powerpoints while my chem and physics classes were all written on the blackboard (so if you missed a class you had to get notes from a friend), though things were also written on the board in most of my bio classes in addition to the powerpoints, which made note-taking vital.

Now, with all this said, we see that you had to score in the top two deciles in pre-med heavy classes at one of the best schools in the country that is packed to the brim with ambitious, bright, motivated, and disciplined students. These students were all gunning for As, all (if you feel this is a valuable metric) scored in the top percentiles of the SAT/ACT, all invested a ton of effort in these classes in addition to everything else they needed to do, and yet still you had to outcompete at the very least 80% of them to even get an A-. Thus, in order to match the national median for accepted students to MD schools, you had to consistently be outperforming 80% of equally talented premed students whose big claim to fame is that they are good at schools. This is far more difficult than some people might expect. Many of these students, at a school with less competition, would be pulling As in these classes, but instead they are getting Bs because 20+% of the premed body performs better than them on these tests.

Now this is only for Biology, Physics, Chemistry. Other departments (including Neuroscience, which has a reputation within my school [or maybe just in my head] for being science for premeds who can't hack it in biology) have much higher department GPA medians. My school put out a departmental report based on overall median for that department and the range was astounding. You had nearly a 0.8 difference between the lowest 5 (which included biology, physics, and chemistry) and the highest 5 (which included stuff like theater and other humanities).

I absolutely do not deny that my school is inflated in the humanities and parts of the social sciences (ie everything except our econ department which is also in our bottom 5 and the psych department). Medians in many many many humanities classes are A or A- (with some B+s thrown in there) and I think it's ridiculous. This is why you might commonly see non-science major premeds with cGPAs of 3.7 but sGPAs of 3.2-3.3.

Now, yes, I understand schools like WashU have similar levels of competition, rigor, etc, and yet have C median classes, but I posit that the percentage of students getting As and A-s (ie what really matters when you're applying to medical school) in both cases are similar (somewhere between 10 and 20%), so if you're still at the top of your class, it won't matter either way, but it can hurt more at WashU than at my school if you're in the middle of the pack.

As with WashU, our school's average successful MD stats are different than the national median. The national median is 3.7/31 while for our school, it is around 3.55/33-34 (these numbers are nearly 2 years old now though, as that's the last time I talked to my premed office about this stuff, so it may have changed slightly).

Our tests in the sciences emphasize critical thinking over memorization, and although you won't get too far if you don't know things, you are certainly not going to do very well on our tests. Multiple choice tests? What are those again? Most of my core premed classes had exams with 6-7 questions and 3 hours to complete them in. No (or very little) multiple choice. It was all about using information to figure things out and piece together bits of knowledge until you can come up with a cohesive solution. And although this can be very difficult, it makes the MCAT (at least old MCAT - I have no experience with the new MCAT) science sections essentially a joke. People with 3.4 GPAs would blast the MCAT out of the water without exhaustive studying (again, I'm sure this trend exists across all top schools). I don't think my roommate's science GPA even hit a 3.2, but he did exceptionally on the MCAT (which he took in the middle of a heavy term - the day after a midterm no less) and he got into a top 30 med school (didn't have anything else fancy either). We have an MD acceptance rate upwards of 80% (won't say the exact number) and we absolutely do not screen our applicants in any way (I've been through this process so I know).

So the short answer to "are Ivies inflated" is yes but it's more like yes* because it varies across department and a B median doesn't mean that you're any better off applying to medical school than you would be at a school with C medians instead.

If you have questions about my experience or my response, I'm happy to answer them. I think I explained this fairly well, so I am going to link to this post in my signature and will point people towards it whenever something related to this issue comes up.

This experience does a great job destroying the notion you get spewed out here of "oh Ivies are so grade inflated so stop whining about your lower GPA's" nonsense you see all the time even from smart intelligent people on this site.

Beating 80% of the nation's best students is very very difficult. And this is coming from someone who went to a state school. The top 15-20% of my classes you would have students who were on full tuition scholarships with high SAT scores and who might have gotten into a top 15 private school like JHU or Cornell out of high school. The average pre-med at my school is the 2000 SAT type who never had a shot at the big top 15 schools. Now compare this to an Ivy league school. The top 15-20% are the types who got into 5-6 IVY league schools, got national awards, turned down guranteed MD programs at state schools, won Intel research awards, many were valedictorians/saledictorians etc. The middle 50% isn't 2000 SAT caliber students, it's 2300 SAT caliber students, many of whom were valedictorians. There is no comparison.

Now, it is a bit surprising to me that none of your upper levels you took were a little more lenient with their curves. In my experience at a state school, the pre-reqs had C median grades but the upper levels in many cases had B+ median grades. Maybe it was just your major(you said neuro had a higher average). But it does show the drastic difference in school quality and competition. And there's evidence that med schools don't account for this difference the way many pre-meds at top schools would like or say is fair. It is unfortunate, and I do question anybody who doesn't look at GPAs much differently from top schools vs state U's to consider this. It's simply a fact that many pre-meds at State U with a 3.8 wouldn't fair nearly as well in an IVY league school where instead of being better than 90% of their competition they are better than only 50%. But alas, the system is what it is. I will say this though, those from top schools tend to exaggerate a little how well students from their class do on the MCAT do and how easy it is for them a little bit. Look at WASHU's stats: most people even with good GPA's aren't getting 35+ scores which is what is needed from anyone to really be competitive for the big names, regardless of undergrad.
 
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This experience does a great job destroying the notion you get spewed out here of "oh Ivies are so grade inflated so stop whining about your lower GPA's" nonsense you see all the time even from smart intelligent people on this site.

Beating 80% of the nation's best students is very very difficult. And this is coming from someone who went to a state school. The top 15-20% of my classes you would have students who were on full tuition scholarships with high SAT scores and who might have gotten into a top 15 private school like JHU or Cornell out of high school. The average pre-med at my school is the 2000 SAT type who never had a shot at the big top 15 schools. Now compare this to an Ivy league school. The top 15-20% are the types who got into 5-6 IVY league schools, got national awards, turned down guranteed MD programs at state schools, won Intel research awards, many were valedictorians/saledictorians etc. The middle 50% isn't 2000 SAT caliber students, it's 2300 SAT caliber students, many of whom were valedictorians. There is no comparison.

To put it into context a little bit, 40% of students at my school were valedictorians. Another 10% were salutatorians. That means 50% of my student body graduated top 2 in their high school class. Both of my college roommates were valedictorians. I was a lowly salutatorian.

Now, it is a bit surprising to me that none of your upper levels you took were a little more lenient with their curves. In my experience at a state school, the pre-reqs had C median grades but the upper levels in many cases had B+ median grades. Maybe it was just your major(you said neuro had a higher average).

Sorry, I should have mentioned this, but I was only talking about my prereq classes with those grades. This is our lower level bio courses, general chemistry, general physics, organic chemistry, and biochemistry. I actually only took 1 upper level science class (lol). This class didn't have a median published because it was a seminar class with very few students, though I would guess that the median was an A- (these were some of the best students in the biology department, nearly all of whom were planning on pursing either PhDs in biology or MDs). This is because senior year, my "upper level classes" were basically me doing my research thesis.

But it does show the drastic difference in school quality and competition. And there's evidence that med schools don't account for this difference the way many pre-meds at top schools would like or say is fair. It is unfortunate, and I do question anybody who doesn't look at GPAs much differently from top schools vs state U's to consider this. It's simply a fact that many pre-meds at State U with a 3.8 wouldn't fair nearly as well in an IVY league school where instead of being better than 90% of their competition they are better than only 50%. But alas, the system is what it is. I will say this though, those from top schools tend to exaggerate a little how well students from their class do on the MCAT do and how easy it is for them a little bit. Look at WASHU's stats: most people even with good GPA's aren't getting 35+ scores which is what is needed from anyone to really be competitive for the big names, regardless of undergrad.

Again, my apologies - the only thing that was hard data from my school regarding the ease of the MCAT was the 3.55/33-34 range. The "MCAT is a joke" comment was based on a lot of anecdotal evidence from people I knew and myself. Out of everyone I advised through this process from my school (n=8-10 can't really remember, so not a huge sample size), no one had an MCAT of below 35 (most of these students were 3.4-3.7 gpa range).

I definitely agree that schools play up their MD admissions data/etc, but in my experience, a lot of it was true.

I also will say this: at my school, a 3.7/34-35 isn't highly competitive for top 20 without something else. For us, it's really all about the MCAT. Most premeds have somewhere in that 3.4-3.7 range, but your MCAT can make the difference between being marginally competitive for MD and being competitive for a top 10 anywhere in that GPA spectrum.
 
Look at WASHU's stats: most people even with good GPA's aren't getting 35+ scores which is what is needed from anyone to really be competitive for the big names, regardless of undergrad.
Excuse me? Among our 3.8-4.0 GPA bin, more than half get 36+ MCATs. One in five gets top 0.5 percentile (39+). Nationally the 3.8+/36+ ratio is 3.2 and here it is 0.7. It really isn't exaggerating to say people who wreck the physics/chem/bio/ochem series laugh at those topics on the MCAT.
 
Excuse me? Among our 3.8-4.0 GPA bin, more than half get 36+ MCATs. One in five gets top 0.5 percentile (39+). Nationally the 3.8+/36+ ratio is 3.2 and here it is 0.7. It really isn't exaggerating to say people who wreck the physics/chem/bio/ochem series laugh at those topics on the MCAT.

You're choosing a very very select bunch in the 3.8+ category(ie around 15%). Calm down. I meant amongst all pre-meds who apply to med school from WASHU.
 
I dunno
I really think it was the 41 + two first author publications more than your school's engineering department that got him into Harvard med. Not saying that your school's engineering department is bad (there are many state UGs with fantastic engineering programs), but do you think he would have gotten into Harvard with a 33 and no publications? Your roommate proved himself to be a phenomenal student, researcher, and test-taker, traits that medical schools like. I wouldn't attribute his success to the program he was in. I understand what you're trying to say, but I don't think this is really an argument that contributes evidence towards that.

I should of mentioned this tidbit in my first post, but in one of his open file interviews(not at Harvard) that he bonded with his interviewer over the "voodoo of transistors." His interviewer did research with MRIs and noticed that my roommates only C+ was in his transistors class. The interviewer went on to comment that my UG is one of the few schools that gives a "true education in transistors," and that many truly bright people struggle with the material taught in the class. He also said that he would cut him slack over his GPA since his major was rigorous.

Arrrghhhh...... I used anecdotal evidence again. I should stop with this post but only if I get some recording of adcom meetings discussing my roommate's app will I know how much my school's engineering program mattered in his acceptances and rejections.
 
I dunno


I should of mentioned this tidbit in my first post, but in one of his open file interviews(not at Harvard) that he bonded with his interviewer over the "voodoo of transistors." His interviewer did research with MRIs and noticed that my roommates only C+ was in his transistors class. The interviewer went on to comment that my UG is one of the few schools that gives a "true education in transistors," and that many truly bright people struggle with the material taught in the class. He also said that he would cut him slack over his GPA since his major was rigorous.

Arrrghhhh...... I used anecdotal evidence again. I should stop with this post but only if I get some recording of adcom meetings discussing my roommate's app will I know how much my school's engineering program mattered in his acceptances and rejections.

I'm sure your roommate would have been an excellent applicant regardless of environment. The fact that he excelled in a difficult program strongly suggests this.
 
For those in the 3.6-3.8 range at WASHU: 1/3 get a 36+. 2/3 get at least a 33.
The 3.4-3.6 bunch: 20% get 36+. About 1/2 get at least a 33.
The 3.2-3.4 bunch: Half don't got above 32.

Note that isn't even 30% of the pre-meds who apply from your school. My point still stands; the majority of pre-meds at top schools don't just ace the MCAT. A little less than 20% get that 36 mark. Half dont get above 32. Doesn't mean the school isn't harder, it simply means the assumption that merely taking those classes doesn't just make the MCAT something that can just be aced like that.
 
You're choosing a very very select bunch in the 3.8+ category(ie around 15%). Calm down. I meant amongst all pre-meds who apply to med school from WASHU.
You said "with good GPAs", I took that to be 3.8+
No, you said those with good GPAs, not all applicants...
 
You said "with good GPAs", I took that to be 3.8+
No, you said those with good GPAs, not all applicants...

The problem with assuming good GPA can only mean anything above a 3.8. A good GPA is something that can make someone competitive for med school. A 3.8+ GPA is a phenomenal GPA that is around the average of top med schools.
 
For those in the 3.6-3.8 range at WASHU: 1/3 get a 36+. 2/3 get at least a 33.
The 3.4-3.6 bunch: 20% get 36+. About 1/2 get at least a 33.
The 3.2-3.4 bunch: Half don't got above 32.

Note that isn't even 30% of the pre-meds who apply from your school. My point still stands; the majority of pre-meds at top schools don't just ace the MCAT. A little less than 20% get that 36 mark. Half dont get above 32. Doesn't mean the school isn't harder, it simply means the assumption that merely taking those classes doesn't just make the MCAT something that can just be aced like that.
You earlier were talking about people with good grades playing up how easy the MCAT is. That's still true
 
Guys, this really isn't worth arguing over.

efle, no one is questioning the fact that WashU deflates, tests very well, and has great med school acceptance rates. GrapesofRath is just making observations about trends, and your definitions of certain things differ. I think you both agree with each other and are arguing about semantics at this point.
 
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The problem with assuming good GPA can only mean anything above a 3.8. A good GPA is something that can get someone into med school. A 3.8+ GPA is a phenomenal GPA that is around the average of top med schools.
The other bin to work with is 3.6-3.79 which is hard to call good considering its average for matriculants
 
Guys, this really isn't worth arguing over.

efle, no one is questioning the fact that WashU deflates, tests very well, and has great med school acceptance rates. GrapesofRath is just making observations about trends, and your definitions of certain things differ. I think you both agree with each other and are arguing about semantics at this point.
No I really disagree with his earlier post about people overplaying the MCAT being easy. Relative to mastery of the prereq series it is shallow and simple.
 
The other bin to work with is 3.6-3.79 which is hard to call good considering its average for matriculants

An average for an MD matriculant is a very good GPA but that's besides the point. This conversation is pointless. No reason to be overly sensitive about your school; bottom line most people who take the MCAT at your school don't get those 36+ scores. That includes the good students(which is hardly just 3.8+). If you want to keep up this nonsensical discussion just do me a favor and don't quote or tag me in any future posts. Thanks.
 
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No I really disagree with his earlier post about people overplaying the MCAT being easy. Relative to mastery of the prereq series it is shallow and simple.

Sure, but isn't 3.6+ considered "good" at WashU? He was just using WashU as an example because those stats are readily available. And regardless of how well these students do, if the administration or premed office plays it up as more than it is (not necessarily in print, but through information sessions or whatever), wouldn't that still be misleading (like saying "you're all but guaranteed a high MCAT score if you have a 3.8+ at WashU" when in reality only 55% - an amazing number - get 36+)?

It's not about how well the students do, but how it is represented, something which there may not be any hard evidence for.

I just don't think it's any reason to get overly worked up about. I don't think this was intended to be a slight against WashU. But that's just my opinion and you may feel differently, I dunno.
 
To put it into context a little bit, 40% of students at my school were valedictorians. Another 10% were salutatorians. That means 50% of my student body graduated top 2 in their high school class. Both of my college roommates were valedictorians. I was a lowly salutatorian.



Sorry, I should have mentioned this, but I was only talking about my prereq classes with those grades. This is our lower level bio courses, general chemistry, general physics, organic chemistry, and biochemistry. I actually only took 1 upper level science class (lol). This class didn't have a median published because it was a seminar class with very few students, though I would guess that the median was an A- (these were some of the best students in the biology department, nearly all of whom were planning on pursing either PhDs in biology or MDs). This is because senior year, my "upper level classes" were basically me doing my research thesis.



Again, my apologies - the only thing that was hard data from my school regarding the ease of the MCAT was the 3.55/33-34 range. The "MCAT is a joke" comment was based on a lot of anecdotal evidence from people I knew and myself. Out of everyone I advised through this process from my school (n=8-10 can't really remember, so not a huge sample size), no one had an MCAT of below 35 (most of these students were 3.4-3.7 gpa range).

I definitely agree that schools play up their MD admissions data/etc, but in my experience, a lot of it was true.

I also will say this: at my school, a 3.7/34-35 isn't highly competitive for top 20 without something else. For us, it's really all about the MCAT. Most premeds have somewhere in that 3.4-3.7 range, but your MCAT can make the difference between being marginally competitive for MD and being competitive for a top 10 anywhere in that GPA spectrum.

Interesting stuff. The whole having pre-reqs graded on a curve hardly surprises me, the story about it being curved to a B sounds about right. That's usually how it is with the top 20 schools. There are some exceptions perhaps(I know my friend at Northwestern said really there ochem class is curved so the median grade is a C+). I don't know too many schools where pre-reqs aren't curved in some way or where the median grade is any higher than a B.

I would suspect(hardly know for a fact and could be wrong but suspect) the curving for a number of(not all) upper level classes for science majors have more lenient curves. If the median grade for all science classes really was a 2.7/3.0 I would suspect fewer pre-meds from your school actually would get into med school. Keep in mind at that level of school alot of people drop pre-med not because they can't handle it it's more a choice and interest in something else.

Do you know the median GPA of the science graduates from your school? From other top 20 schools I know people at I've heard for bio majors it's around a 3.3-3.4.
 
Interesting stuff. The whole having pre-reqs graded on a curve hardly surprises me, the story about it being curved to a B sounds about right. That's usually how it is with the top 20 schools. There are some exceptions perhaps(I know my friend at Northwestern said really there ochem class is curved so the median grade is a C+). I don't know too many schools where pre-reqs aren't curved in some way or where the median grade is any higher than a B.

We rarely have C+ medians, but they do exist, and are generally in Bio, Chem, or Math (maybe Physics too?). Usually the lowest I'll see is a B-.

I would suspect(hardly know for a fact and could be wrong but suspect) the curving for a number of(not all) upper level classes for science majors have more lenient curves. If the median grade for all science classes really was a 2.7/3.0 I would suspect fewer pre-meds from your school actually would get into med school. Keep in mind at that level of school alot of people drop pre-med not because they can't handle it it's more a choice and interest in something else.

I can really only speak for biology, but we have three tiers of classes. Low level classes are mandated to have B medians and are all lecture-style and include the premed prereqs. Mid level classes have medians that vary and probably are more B or B+ median, but are generally much smaller, because only bio majors will be taking them. Biochem, which is considered a mid level at my school, is the exception because it's super premed heavy as well, so it's treated similarly to the low level classes, except that the people are all the people who survived the rest of the premed gauntlet, so competition is even more intense. Then we have our high level classes which are all small seminar-style classes populated exclusively by biology major upperclassmen which all would most likely have A, A-, or B+ medians, though they aren't often published. These classes are more about reading and critiquing primary literature, experimental design and writing (I had to write a grant as my final paper for the one I took lol), and stuff like that.

Do you know the median GPA of the science graduates from your school? From other top 20 schools I know people at I've heard for bio majors it's around a 3.3-3.4.

The departmental median (which includes classes just from that department) for bio, physics, chem, and math are all in the 3.2-3.4 range (I think the ascending order goes chem, bio, math, physics, but I could be wrong - if you want me to double check, I can try to find the data again), but the gpas of the students themselves are often a lot higher because we are a liberal arts school and require a lot of classes outside of the sciences, which often are easier to get As/A-s in. This means that you'll find a lot of science majors with a 3.6-3.7 overall GPA but a 3.2-3.4 GPA in the major.
 
Interesting that you say neuro is known as the easier route, it's the only major here to my knowledge that has a minimum GPA and an interview with the neuro profs before you can declare it.

And, we don't have C medians, 2.7 to 3.0 / B- to B is what I've seen in every prereq and all upper levels except for two, one that had a B+ median and the other an A- median (which was awesome)

Good post for the small SDN niche interested in this stuff!
 
Interesting that you say neuro is known as the easier route, it's the only major here to my knowledge that has a minimum GPA and an interview with the neuro profs before you can declare it.

Heh, it could just be me. I used to be a neuro major, but I was put off by the relative simplicity of the classes I took and switched to bio with a neuro focus - it worked out a lot better for me I think (and I did my thesis in neurobiology rather than neuroscience, but everyone else in my lab was a neuroscience major). I just mentally have this thing where I would immediately judge neuro major premeds for taking the "easy route". Interestingly, I have found that bio majors were in general more successful and got into better schools than neuro majors, but I think it's self-selection. Again, this is just for my school and stems merely from my perceptions. [/quote]

And, we don't have C medians, 2.7 to 3.0 / B- to B is what I've seen in every prereq and all upper levels except for two, one that had a B+ median and the other an A- median (which was awesome)

Good post for the small SDN niche interested in this stuff!

Thanks! I usually don't enjoy these discussions because they inevitably turn into state school vs. private school pissing matches, but I'm glad that we all had this one .
 
Heh, it could just be me. I used to be a neuro major, but I was put off by the relative simplicity of the classes I took and switched to bio with a neuro focus - it worked out a lot better for me I think (and I did my thesis in neurobiology rather than neuroscience, but everyone else in my lab was a neuroscience major). I just mentally have this thing where I would immediately judge neuro major premeds for taking the "easy route". Interestingly, I have found that bio majors were in general more successful and got into better schools than neuro majors, but I think it's self-selection. Again, this is just for my school and stems merely from my perceptions.



Thanks! I usually don't enjoy these discussions because they inevitably turn into state school vs. private school pissing matches, but I'm glad that we all had this one .[/QUOTE]

One question. Was your "school" in state or out of state?
 
COST, and a few other factors.

I went to an Ivy League school (which I stated quite clearly only a few posts above this) that was not in my state and also my cheapest option due to financial aid. My next two cheapest options were also top private schools (again, due to financial aid) and after that was my flagship state school, which gave me no financial aid, and therefore was more expensive than the first three options.
 
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The average gpas at my school are around 2.0-2.4 for almost all science pre-med pre-reqs.

What does this mean for my school's grade curve? Is it inflated, deflated, or average?
 
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