Lowest GPA Acceptable?

[zampino]

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Hey!

I might be asking something already asked before, but just curious...is there a GPA that the schools will just look at and throw your app away regardless of the rest?

Here is the deal, I was one of those nerdy kids...early acceptance at college 20 years ago...16 years old and full scholarship...half a semester into it, I just left. (Long story...emancipated minor...advocate / attorney also acted as my manager and encouraged me to go out and make both of us money...didn't think to drop out because I thought it was going to be three weeks of promo and I'd be back). Repeat several times...letters of support, academic probation...drop to lower rank school...repeat...by the time I was 23, I had an almost non-existent GPA and pretty much a permanent record I couldn't avoid. Almost every school / program has as a requirement that admissions considers it fraud to not include all former academic work.

Years later, ended up sick...hospital or bed for nearly a year...figured it was a chance to fix things and make a new start. Working my ass off, I was able to raise my GPA to 2.2 (minimum for grad)...still not the greatest student, but I wanted to do this...ended up as a researcher for a known psychologist that ended mentoring me. Because of a few published papers (one first author), and great letters of ref, I was accepted conditionally to grad school...ended up finishing up the Masters program in a year and a half -- and having taken the Chem I & Lab med preqreqs this semester (17 credit hours total). Sadly, my grad program didn't require any of the prereqs.

Right now, my advisors are really pushing me...they know I finished the requirements for the Masters earlier than the rest of my cohort, and I was supposed to have a decision on the PhD program before this semester ended...I told them I'm going to take a break for a few months to do some grant work or other BS that I know they aren't buying because the advisor pulled up next sem's schedule and tacked it on my office door with a note to talk to him (i.e., Chem II & Lab / Bio I).

At this point, my heart is no where near psychology and I can't stand the idea of wasting another year in the program. I have far more in common with the physicians I deal with, and end up out with med students more often than the students in my own program.

I have had nothing but encouragement from my friends...they convinced me to try the undergrad pre-reqs and see if I could handle it. From their biased perspective, the old GPA can be explained away as reckless youth and that I came back and did right. That I have a Master's degree (if I tell the dept that I'm not going beyond this) and it will be what is looked at, not the undergrad.

But it still comes down to me...2.2 Undergrad GPA...even if the last few years have been at around 3.2 and the masters at 4.0.

I'm just wondering if I'm ruining one guaranteed career for the chance at another that I might not even get an interview for...at this point, I can't even talk with anyone at my university's med school to ask because of the relationships between the faculty -- I am trying not to burn any bridges too soon...(and trust me, there is enough of an inferiority complex with psychologists that they would take this as a threat...)

Ok, I've rambled on a little too long...I'm taking the next semester away from the grad work regardless (my current position doesn't require being in the program, but there hasn't been anyone in recent history that wasn't), but I'd like to make a decision and put it on my advisor's desk soon...

Thanks in advance...

 

[Perrotfish]

To sum up:

Question: I have a 2.2 Ugrad GPA with a history of academic probation and no no prereqs or MCAT yet, upward trend, and a 4.0 in graduate GPA in a Masters of psyche. What are my odds?

Answer: Slim to none as a straight up applicant. Yes there are many schools that have a minimum GPA for you to even get a secondary (Virignia schools, for example) but even in the ones that don't have an offical minimum are very stat-happy and they don't seem to care much about your work in graduate school compared to your undergrad. I just don't see you doing enough grade improvement with the prereqs and some extra classes to appear to be a good candidate. That's assuming you get a good MCAT, of course. There's a very real chance you won't.

Options if you want medical school:

1) Improve your GPA to a 2.8 minimum (probably a 3.0), get a spectacular MCAT, and apply to a Special Masters program (or SMP). SMPs are 1 year programs where you take classes at medical schools with medical students as a sort of audition for medical school. Students that are successful in these programs tend to get admitted. You need a very good MCAT to even be admitted to one of these programs, though.

2) Retake classes you did poorly in until you have a minimum of a 3.2 (probably a 3.4) with grade replacement, get a good MCAT, go to a DO school. DO schools only consider your most recent grade in a class. This is a good option for severe damage control

3) Go to the Caribbean. If you finish the prereqs there is probably an island school that will take you. Be aware that your odds of failing out of a Caribbean school are very high compared to a mainland school, and a majority of their graduates can't get residencies, so if you go you still have barely a (rough and much debated estimate) 25% chance of ending up a residency trained doctor. That's opposed to just about a 100% chance if you go to a mainland school. Honestly unless you have a trust fund I wouldn't gamble my life on this option, but that's me.

Final opinion: You're talking about giving up a sure career that you can be working in in only 2 years for the possibility of a career where, with only 3 years (or more) of application damage control, prereqs, and applications, you will have the opportunity to start a training pipeline of 7-14 years. You probably can do this, but is it really worth it? I would go for either the psyche degree or I'd be a PA, but that's me. If this is a dream for you, again, you probably CAN do it.

 

[Isoprop]

is there a GPA that the schools will just look at and throw your app away regardless of the rest?

From 2005-2007, there were 676 applicants with GPAs ranging from 2.2-2.4. 32 were accepted.

source: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table24-mcatgpa-grid-3yrs-app-accpt.htm

So your GPA doesn't disqualify you, but you better have a hell of a reason for getting in.

 

[anavistas]

-There are applicants who get in with 3 and sub 3 GPAs, it really depends on your state.

-You'll probably have a shot at MDs with slightly above 3 like 3.2 and a "spectacular" MCAT, but you can never be sure about getting one.I remember at least 3 live cases on this board with 3.2+40, 2.9+39, 2.9 +43 who got into very good MDs.

-About SMP you have to work harder than med students, they need a pass you need an A, if you don't do well, you are probably banned from U.S medical schools for the rest of your life.

-DO is a safer option.

-The last thing you might want to do is going to Caribbean.

My suggestion is that you really don't need to choose one of these options; You'll take as many courses as possible to be about 2.8 -3.2, when you reached there you can apply to MDs, DOs, SMPs and Caribbean at the same time. The probability that you are being chosen, is far more than the probability that you choose from them, so you'll not have to choose among options. The only dilemma is maybe between an SMP and Caribbean, in which your MCAT dictates you what to do. If you are successful enough to get an extraordinary score but not accepted, you might want to decide to increase your GPA and apply again or go to SMP.

If you are accpeted, however, you'll be among the most amazing students with most interesting backgrounds.

 

[zampino]

1) Improve your GPA to a 2.8 minimum (probably a 3.0), get a spectacular MCAT, and apply to a Special Masters program (or SMP).

2) Retake classes you did poorly in until you have a minimum of a 3.2 (probably a 3.4) with grade replacement, get a good MCAT, go to a DO school. DO schools only consider your most recent grade in a class.

Final opinion: You're talking about giving up a sure career that you can be working in in only 2 years for the possibility of a career where, with only 3 years (or more) of application damage control, prereqs, and applications, you will have the opportunity to start a training pipeline of 7-14 years

How are the SMPs? It sounds like a real option...but I don't know if I can even get my GPA up to the minimum level they are looking for...

Again, my 2.2 overall GPA comes from me taking the last 14 undergrad classes since coming back with a 3.6 GPA (I just calculated it). Heh! I'm looking at some of the classes I failed...Alg/Trig I...Elementary Comp 2...I wish I could PAY someone to take these for me!!! At this point, I do advanced stats as part of my current position...I've written more research papers than I know what to do with...an I'm realizing taking these over will improve my grade, but I'd almost wish someone bash my head open with a hammer...I could do these in my sleep! Hell, I could probably do these with my head bashed in and still perform better than 90% of the students in class I'd have to sit through!

I'm thankful for the brutal honesty...I really don't want DO school...even if it were an option, there are none anywhere near me, and I was hoping to get into my schools med program (it isn't that highly ranked, but they do give a LOT of consideration to locals). And for Psychology...my garwrd...I haven't opened a book in MONTHS and still get the top scores...and then I walk into to deal with practicum issues and its the same ol' I WANT TO BE DIAGNOSED SO I CAN KEEP BEING F***ED UP THE WAY I'VE ALWAYS BEEN WITHOUT HAVING TO CHANGE. Seems like people want the label so they can use it as an untouchable excuse.

Even worse is that I am told that I currently have the best supervisor reviews in the program and generally the go-to guy when someone has a problem they can't figure out. And yet, I really just don't care. Psych was something I was good at, but I was ambivalent towards it going in but thought it was the best I could do.

From 2005-2007, there were 676 applicants with GPAs ranging from 2.2-2.4. 32 were accepted.

So you are saying according to that data, I have half a percentage of a chance of getting in! Then again, I play the lotto when I get an extra $10 and those are much worse odds!

-You'll probably have a shot at MDs with slightly above 3 like 3.2 and a "spectacular" MCAT, but you can never be sure about getting one.I remember at least 3 live cases on this board with 3.2+40, 2.9+39, 2.9 +43 who got into very good MDs.

-About SMP you have to work harder than med students, they need a pass you need an A, if you don't do well, you are probably banned from U.S medical schools for the rest of your life.

...

If you are accpeted, however, you'll be among the most amazing students with most interesting backgrounds.

Ok...SMP and spectacular MCAT sounds like the plan...I've still got a year and a half to do something with the GPA, but I don't see it moving much...I have all the prereqs ahead of me anyways, and maybe in the two years, med schools will realize that someone can screw up badly, and yet learn from it becoming an ideal candidate! Oh wait...I already mentioned playing the lottery...

As for interesting backgrounds...I inherited this curse from my mother...my life is actually pretty boring in comparison. I've wanted nothing more than to be able to help people and put this behind me...and I don't think I'm helping anyone with my current path...

 

[Isoprop]

How are the SMPs? It sounds like a real option...but I don't know if I can even get my GPA up to the minimum level they are looking for...

There are many good ones with track records of getting students into med school. But honestly, if you can't get your GPA high enough for an SMP, you have even a smaller chance of getting into medical school.

Again, my 2.2 overall GPA comes from me taking the last 14 undergrad classes since coming back with a 3.6 GPA (I just calculated it). Heh! I'm looking at some of the classes I failed...Alg/Trig I...Elementary Comp 2...I wish I could PAY someone to take these for me!!! At this point, I do advanced stats as part of my current position...I've written more research papers than I know what to do with...an I'm realizing taking these over will improve my grade, but I'd almost wish someone bash my head open with a hammer...I could do these in my sleep! Hell, I could probably do these with my head bashed in and still perform better than 90% of the students in class I'd have to sit through!

At least your learned from your mistakes. 🙂

I'm thankful for the brutal honesty...I really don't want DO school...even if it were an option, there are none anywhere near me, and I was hoping to get into my schools med program (it isn't that highly ranked, but they do give a LOT of consideration to locals). And for Psychology...my garwrd...I haven't opened a book in MONTHS and still get the top scores...and then I walk into to deal with practicum issues and its the same ol' I WANT TO BE DIAGNOSED SO I CAN KEEP BEING F***ED UP THE WAY I'VE ALWAYS BEEN WITHOUT HAVING TO CHANGE. Seems like people want the label so they can use it as an untouchable excuse.

Even worse is that I am told that I currently have the best supervisor reviews in the program and generally the go-to guy when someone has a problem they can't figure out. And yet, I really just don't care. Psych was something I was good at, but I was ambivalent towards it going in but thought it was the best I could do.

I understand your desire to leave psyc. But you are really limiting your chances by only applying to schools near you. Is there a reason like family that is keeping you from applying more broadly? Even if you had the median GPA and MCAT for all applicants, your chances of getting into med school would still be bad if you don't apply broadly.

So you are saying according to that data, I have half a percentage of a chance of getting in! Then again, I play the lotto when I get an extra $10 and those are much worse odds!

The only place left to go is up!

Ok...SMP and spectacular MCAT sounds like the plan...I've still got a year and a half to do something with the GPA, but I don't see it moving much...I have all the prereqs ahead of me anyways, and maybe in the two years, med schools will realize that someone can screw up badly, and yet learn from it becoming an ideal candidate! Oh wait...I already mentioned playing the lottery...

As for interesting backgrounds...I inherited this curse from my mother...my life is actually pretty boring in comparison. I've wanted nothing more than to be able to help people and put this behind me...and I don't think I'm helping anyone with my current path...

2+ years of postbacc work with a lot of science classes and perhaps 1 year of SMP can get you into med school (provided you have all the other requirements like MCAT, ECs, letters, etc.). A lot of medical schools know that recent academic performance is more indicative of your success in med school than earlier performance.

Good luck.

 

[nabeel76]

You've got an extremely uphill battle. If you really want to become a doctor and get into an allopathic medical school - then you can do it, but it will take you time.

First, ask yourself if you can realistically devote 3+ years to get to a point where you will only start applying to medical schools. After that your going to have to go through an additional 4 years of med school + 3-5 years of residency. Are you willing to do this?

If so, then here are some things you need to consider:

1) If you are enrolled in a Ph.D program and drop out to pursue medicine, that is not going to look good to medical school admissions committees. Adcoms like candidates that complete what they start, regardless of what that might be. It would be percieved as a lack of commitment on your part and since medical school / residency requires a huge commitment, and you have already demonstrated a lack of committment at the undergrad level, you really need to show them that you've learned from past mistakes and have matured. Dropping another commitment is not going to help you do this. Additionally, I can imagine that it will affect some of your LOR's if you do drop out - sounds like your advisor is already a little worried-ticked-off?

However, if this was just a masters program and you never made a commitment towards the Ph.D, then you can ignore consideration number 1.

2) Although the publications and LORs from your grad program will really help you in terms of EC's, your grad GPA will not. Unfortunately, medical schools primarily look at the undergraduate GPA. A masters in the 'hard sciences' might help a little by showing some med schools that you can handle advanced science coursework, but in your case that 4.0 GPA in the masters program is not going to overcome any deficiences exhibited by your undergraduate GPA.

3) I am not exactly sure what is on your permanent record, but I don't have to tell you that its not going to look good. There is a question requiring you to state any institutional action on the primary application and its going to be seen prior to you ever recieving a secondary application. Additionally, some schools want a letter from the dean of student affairs explaining all institutional actions.

Here are my recommendations:

1) Go back and pursue post bac courses. Since you are not interested in DO schools it will not do you any good to repeat coursework that you've done bad in unless they are premedical prerequisites, and you've done worse than a C in it. Your going to need at least 2 solid years, including summer sessions, at as close to a 4.0 as possible - no lower than a 3.8 cum over the 2 years. Also make sure a good amount of those credits include upper level science coursework in biology and chemistry.

2) During the two years of post bac work, take the MCAT and make sure you score at least a 30.

3) Apply, get accepted, and attend an SMP program. Do extremely well in it!

4) Apply to med schools! Depending on your SMP grades and your MCAT you might now have a chance at getting in - but keep in mind that your still going to have a hard time getting into any 1 school and your going to have to apply broadly and to a good number of schools. There will be no guarantee that you will get in anywhere, so you should be ready to reapply the following year with additional work on your application if needed.

Alternative route:

If you really want to be a doctor, forget about pursuing allopathic schools and focus on osteopathic DO granting schools. This would save you extreme headaches and valuable time as they replace the older grades in repeated course work. Therefore all you would need to do is:

1) Repeat every, or most, of the courses that you did poorly in - starting with the worst. In 1-2 years, depending on how many courses you need to repeat, you could imagine that if you replace the majority of these grades with A's, you can easily pull your GPA up into the mid 3's in 2full years. Make sure to throw a couple of upper level sciences in their as well to help convince the adcoms that you can handle the science curriculum of med school.

2) Take the MCAT and do well, perferably a 30 or above.

3) No SMP needed

4) Apply to DO schools and you will have a very good shot at getting in somewhere

5) Become a doctor!!


Hope this helps..

 

[Perrotfish]

I'm thankful for the brutal honesty...I really don't want DO school...even if it were an option, there are none anywhere near me, and I was hoping to get into my schools med program (it isn't that highly ranked, but they do give a LOT of consideration to locals

Two things.

1) Even very good candidates for medical school apply to 20+ schools to get into 1 or 2. While your local school should definitely be on of the 20-30 schools you apply to, you need to understand that if you want to have any hope at all of a medical degree then you have to be prepared to go anywhere in the country. Also you should plan on moving for the SMP and for residency when you finish med school. While you'll get some influence in terms of where you go for residency, the earliest you'll be able to decide where you live will be 2019.

2) DO grads attend the same residencies and have the same practice rights as MD grads and you are in no position to be picky about where you go to med school. If you have any specific concerns about DO schools please post them so that we can help allay your fears, but dismissing them out of hand is definitely a poor decision.

And one more time, while I hope this works out for you, there is definitely something to be said for the 'bird in the hand' nature of your psyche degree. You're trading a sure thing of a career that you can start in 2 years for a career that you could theoretically start in 10 years if a series of improbable events all go your way. To recap: you need to pass the premed classes that fail most psyche majors, then rock the MCAT that fails many successful premeds, then get into an SMP that turns down most of it's applicants, ace that SMP program competing against medical students who are struggling to pass, and then finally get into medical school despite having quit a psyche program, having been on academic probation, and (though the SMP might mitigate this) still having a horrible Ugrad GPA. I'm not sure that there is anything so much more fulfilling about medicine vs. psyche that it's worth that kind of gamble with your life.

Again, good luck in whatever you choose to do. And Merry ChristmasHanuKwanza.

 

[NTF]

And one more time, while I hope this works out for you, there is definitely something to be said for the 'bird in the hand' nature of your psyche degree. You're trading a sure thing of a career that you can start in 2 years for a career that you could theoretically start in 10 years if a series of improbable events all go your way.

👍
You'd be wise to give Perrotfish's post some serious consideration. Because the theoretical 10 years could in fact be even longer. You could be looking at almost a second bachelor's to repair your uGPA. Just make sure you evaluate what it is you really want carefully. As far as I can tell, clinical psychology is every bit as rewarding a career as being an MD.

That being said if you're willing to put in the years and effort and be flexible about schools (DO and geography) I don't really see med school as beyond most people's grasp. As long as you're prepared to potentially put 4 or more years into intensive application improvement (GPA, ECs, LORs, MCAT, etc.), apply smartly (broadly DO & MD and early), and you realize that you may have to reapply several times, eventually you'll get in. It's just a matter whether all that work is worth it based on what it is you really want.

 

[njbmd]

What went in the past in terms of uGPAs is not necessarily going to hold true for the future. You need to stop "thumbing your nose" at osteopathic medical schools because they are likely your only option with your poor undergraduate performance.

No one in admissions (trust me on this one because I sit on two allopathic admissions committees), cares a "rat's a--" about what you did in high school or whether or not you open a book. There aren't many "do-overs" in this process, thus your "screw-up" is going to be costly.

You haven't taken the Medical College Admissions Test (MCAT) which is no easy task to undertake. You have a very poor uGPA in terms of medical schools admissions. Your best shot, as others have told you is to look into SMPs (screw up in one of those and you won't get into any medical school in this country), some very hard and long work ahead of you to even get yourself marginally competitive. In addition, your present graduate work is going to be weighted about the same as an extracurricular meaning that it's not going to offset your poor undergraduate work.

Look at osteopathic medical schools and learn about their philosophy. If you actually want to practice medicine, you will get busy doing this. It doesn't make any difference if a school is in your area or not. No patient cares about osteopathic versus allopathic. You may be looking at overseas medical schools in the long run (if you don't turn some things around) anyway. Drop the excuses, set some goals and get busy. Medical school admission is a brutal process for any student let alone one who has some serious "damage control" to undertake.

 

[QofQuimica]

OP, I wasn't going to respond to your thread, since there is nothing I can add that others haven't already said even better. But I couldn't let this set of statements go by:

I'm thankful for the brutal honesty...I really don't want DO school...even if it were an option, there are none anywhere near me, and I was hoping to get into my schools med program (it isn't that highly ranked, but they do give a LOT of consideration to locals). And for Psychology...my garwrd...I haven't opened a book in MONTHS and still get the top scores...and then I walk into to deal with practicum issues and its the same ol' I WANT TO BE DIAGNOSED SO I CAN KEEP BEING F***ED UP THE WAY I'VE ALWAYS BEEN WITHOUT HAVING TO CHANGE. Seems like people want the label so they can use it as an untouchable excuse.

With all respect, may I humbly suggest that you take a good hard look at your *own* attitudes regarding wanting to be "diagnosed" by the good nontrads of SDN so that you can "keep being f***ed up....without having to change." I would hate to think that you would use your underdog label "as an untouchable excuse" to avoid facing certain unpleasant but necessary truths that you must accept if you want a real chance of getting into medical school. As others have already eloquently pointed out, these include considering a DO program, being willing to move if necessary, not burning bridges at your grad school, and studying properly. 😉

 

[gman33]

I'm thankful for the brutal honesty...I really don't want DO school...even if it were an option, there are none anywhere near me, and I was hoping to get into my schools med program (it isn't that highly ranked, but they do give a LOT of consideration to locals).

What are your reasons for not wanting a DO school?
It will get you to the same place. There is no real difference.

If you don't want DO, just stop now.
You need a SMP to have a shot, but first you need to get your gpa in the 3.0 range. That will probably take 3-4 years of full-time UG courses at 4.0.

If you want to go for it, go ahead, but do not underestimate the amount of work ahead of you.

 

[njbmd]

believe it or not, some people have been accepted into med school with a 2.9 science and 3.3 overall. Something made them distinct from the rest of the applicants. Perhaps, they joined the peace corp and worked on an AIDS project in Africa, for example. There is no secret formula into getting into med school. Med schools evaluate determination, drive but initally look at grades and MCATS as a screening tool.

What went on the past is not necessarily going to be true for the future. Peace Corps, AIDS projects or any other extracurricular is not likely to offset a poor uGPA. It is unrealistic and largely a total waste of money to apply with very low academics. Determination and drive have little role in our deciding whether or not to accept a student into our class.

 

[DRJJ1]

What went on the past is not necessarily going to be true for the future. Peace Corps, AIDS projects or any other extracurricular is not likely to offset a poor uGPA. It is unrealistic and largely a total waste of money to apply with very low academics. Determination and drive have little role in our deciding whether or not to accept a student into our class.

forget med school dude,,from your past life eperiences you just don t give enough and it seems you just like to skid by in everything you do you just like to get things by doing the bare minimums and you will be humbled if you ever get into any med school. just go to tech school for surgical room tech or ultrasound mri xray tech or something even nurse maybe...stop deluding yourself you want want but you don t buckle down enough,,its just not you so accept it and move on

 

[Nasrudin]

All the comments are spot on.

However, I don't fit the Perrotfish criteria for success given the 3.3 range gpa. And I am living proof that the njbmd Old Testament view of undergrad performance is not ubiquitous.

I am speaking to the casual reader of this thread w/ similar situationals more than the OP.

 

[NTF]

All the comments are spot on.

However, I don't fit the Perrotfish criteria for success given the 3.3 range gpa. And I am living proof that the njbmd Old Testament view of undergrad performance is not ubiquitous.

I am speaking to the casual reader of this thread w/ similar situationals more than the OP.

I didn't realize you had been accepted. Congrats!

 

[Perrotfish]

All the comments are spot on.

However, I don't fit the Perrotfish criteria for success given the 3.3 range gpa. And I am living proof that the njbmd Old Testament view of undergrad performance is not ubiquitous.

I am speaking to the casual reader of this thread w/ similar situationals more than the OP.

My comments were aimed at the 2.5 crowd rather than the 3.3 crowd, I'm not sure I made that clear enough.

Also, congrats on the acceptance! Will you share where you're going?

 

[Nasrudin]

My comments were aimed at the 2.5 crowd rather than the 3.3 crowd, I'm not sure I made that clear enough.

Also, congrats on the acceptance! Will you share where you're going?

I missed the subtlety. Thanks. I appreciate it.

I'm skiddish about my veil of anonymity. Being somewhat of a compulsive verbal projectile vomiter. And shuddering at the slave system we are going forth into. There's just too much to loose with our 400,000 quid on the line an all.

 

[gogle]

the value placed on gpa depends on what courses you've taken.if you take challenging courses, and my biggest concern is that they look at your gpa and mine is very low, it is less than a 3.0.

 

[sindadel]

Just wanted to *cheer* again for Nasrudin's acceptance! 🙂

 

[bbox2haejo]

what is the range of GPAs that usually get accepted into the SMPs? and when would you apply to a SMP?

 

[Nasrudin]

what is the range of GPAs that usually get accepted into the SMPs? and when would you apply to a SMP?

Thank you sindadel. That's very warm of you.


Uh. I think there are people who know better but until they respond. There are I think multiple considerations. What might get you you into one late season--and you generally apply to SMP's starting around january into spring--might still hamper you in the global application process if it is still way on the low end. So then it depends where your final numbers will sit. You really want to know what your cum gpa and BCPM gpa will be at the application point after the SMP--which will be a separate item gpa-wise on your final applications. The reason being is that this will inform your decision on where to apply to for the SMP.

For example the Georgetown program is designed to kick up a generally good application into the acceptable range. so you get a lot of sharp 22 year olds with plenty of money and 3.0 to 3.4 cum gpa's getting ready to apply widely with good success rates given a good SMP performance.

Other programs will take their graduates who do well at the home medical school ins pite of a low cum gpa. So the programs vary in their design, goals, and applicant profiles. i've heard of VCU taking 2.8's or so with solid MCATs. But then you would have to do well and then basically go to that med school b/c you just can hope for too much w/ that low of a gpa outside the home med school.

That also is a key consideration then--your MCAT score. A high or very good MCAT score combined with a solid SMP will allow you to have a lower cum gpa. So as with anything in the med school application process it is highly contextual. And calculation of odds and so forth are extremely elusive when the rubber starts hitting the road.

But generally SMP students are in the 3.0 to 3.4 region on average I would say. Maybe a significant number of very high 2's but I'm not sure there's any real data beyond the anecdotal.

 

[BennieBlanco]

From 2005-2007, there were 676 applicants with GPAs ranging from 2.2-2.4. 32 were accepted.

source: http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/table24-mcatgpa-grid-3yrs-app-accpt.htm

So your GPA doesn't disqualify you, but you better have a hell of a reason for getting in.

Everyone realizes the AAMC posts data correct?

The numbers tell the story.

 

[Nasrudin]

Everyone realizes the AAMC posts data correct?

The numbers tell the story.

Agreed. And yet. At each end of the bell curve the question becomes why? on the low end vs. why not? on the high end. And then the numbers are just the beggars of questions. And this is the mistake of the sdn groupthink. That says the numbers are the story.

There is a science and a state of mind to being an exceptionista.

 

[BennieBlanco]

Agreed. And yet. At each end of the bell curve the question becomes why? on the low end vs. why not? on the high end. And then the numbers are just the beggars of questions. And this is the mistake of the sdn groupthink. That says the numbers are the story.

There is a science and a state of mind to being an exceptionista.

agreed.

Of course there are a bunch of factors to get into to med school... BUT, the question is: Is it possible with ___ GPA. Well, the #'s say yes or no.

Do the "yeses" have things other than GPA/MCAT? I think we all understand that they do. YET year in and year out, a certain similar percentage with __ GPA and ___ MCAT keep getting in.

The #'s dictate the action. has a sub 3.0 and sub 30 MCAT ever yielded 80% acceptance? NO.

Has a 3.6+ and 35+ MCAT ever yielded 20-30% acceptance? NO.

We can talk all we want about how rounded applicants and all that is important, yet in the end, every year we see about 80-90%+ applicants with 3.8/38+ MCAT gaining acceptance. Yes there are other factors, but 80% of the weight is held by... the #'s.

How else could you explain that the categories yield similar acceptance %'s year after year.

It is funny to hear you say otherwise. As you stated that you want to go MD over DO because of 93% match rate vs. 70% match rate (not exactly in those words but that is the essence of your stance). You are not considering what makes the outlier DO special, you chose to be in the better #'s group. The MD group.

 

[Nasrudin]

agreed.

Of course there are a bunch of factors to get into to med school... BUT, the question is: Is it possible with ___ GPA. Well, the #'s say yes or no.

Do the "yeses" have things other than GPA/MCAT? I think we all understand that they do. YET year in and year out, a certain similar percentage with __ GPA and ___ MCAT keep getting in.

The #'s dictate the action. has a sub 3.0 and sub 30 MCAT ever yielded 80% acceptance? NO.

Has a 3.6+ and 35+ MCAT ever yielded 20-30% acceptance? NO.

We can talk all we want about how rounded applicants and all that is important, yet in the end, every year we see about 80-90%+ applicants with 3.8/38+ MCAT gaining acceptance. Yes there are other factors, but 80% of the weight is held by... the #'s.

How else could you explain that the categories yield similar acceptance %'s year after year.

It is funny to hear you say otherwise. As you stated that you want to go MD over DO because of 93% match rate vs. 70% match rate (not exactly in those words but that is the essence of your stance). You are not considering what makes the outlier DO special, you chose to be in the better #'s group. The MD group.

Yes you've called my bet. And again I can't disagree.

But I think medical school admissions is an easier gate to crash. They can determine with reasonable certainty your determination to finish and become a doc. And so they can open the gate wider for a few wingnuts like me.

Furthermore at this level there is an inherent hubris that is even jealous of its own omnipotence. A certain autoerotic love of the judge's hammer. This can be exploited by the crafty and the ballsy among us. And to be clear I don't mean to in anyway disingenuous, on the contrary, the opposite. Be so honest it either makes them cringe or smile.

At the match level I'm not so certain this is effective. Of those with comparable board scores they might take the guy they'd rather have a beer with. But I'm not sure you can make up as much ground there. At least that's my sense of it. Having read closely the conversations of medical students residents, PD's etc.

Then of of course as you say. The numbers at a certain point just get nasty. So yeah that hasn't escaped me. I don't say to someone with a 2.9 to chase rainbows and leprechauns.

On the other hand. I say dropping back to pass and holding on to the ball while angry linbackers a rearing to crush your bones and letting in fly down field. When you come up against it. And the odds. And score. It feels gooder than a m@therf@cker.

 

[RT2MD]

Well... for what it is worth, I got a 0.86 GPA one semester early on (combined with a bunch of other bad semesters), had a huge upward trend (Finally got Cumulative up to 3.12 with A's in Biochem/Organic/Genetics), did fairly well on MCAT (didn't "rock it" by any means), and I have gained an MD acceptance at my state school.

My advice, and to be honest - I haven't read through the thread, is to contact the admissions department at the schools you want to apply to. Ask them what they look at. Ask them what they want to see improve. Then do it!

Best of luck to you. Getting that acceptance letter ranked up there with my wife saying "yes" to my proposal, and my daughter being born... Cheesy? Probably, but still the way I feel about it. If you want it bad enough, it will happen.

Hope you have a Happy New Year.