LPN and RN's earn more than residents.

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Surgery2Do

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I was surprised to find out that most LPN's starting pay in 40K a year and RN is 60K a year.

Really residents are very much under paid and even the pay after residency is not so good anymore.

Just something to think about after going to school forever and then embarking on the residency path.

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Surgery2Do said:
I was surprised to find out that most LPN's starting pay in 40K a year and RN is 60K a year.

Really residents are very much under paid and even the pay after residency is not so good anymore.

Just something to think about after going to school forever and then embarking on the residency path.

My wife is a physical therapist and makes 60k a year. I make 41k as a PGY-2. As an EM attending I'll be making 200k+ a year, 40 hours a week. "the pay after residency is not so good anymore"? Please, tell me you're kidding. The average HOUSEHOLD income in the ENTIRE US is 40k. That's how much ONE resident makes.

Q
 
I believe am correct in my belief that if resident pay was increased then they would have a hard time defering loans until after residency due to hardship. That would mean paying loans on a slightly higher salary; thus a lower net income.l
 
Surgery2Do said:
I was surprised to find out that most LPN's starting pay in 40K a year and RN is 60K a year.

Really residents are very much under paid and even the pay after residency is not so good anymore.

Just something to think about after going to school forever and then embarking on the residency path.


WOW I want to get into residency where you live. My wife is an RN and makes absolutly nowhere near 60K!!...before taxes! They must be using a large number of travel/registry RNs for that salary comparison.
 
Surgery2Do said:
I was surprised to find out that most LPN's starting pay in 40K a year and RN is 60K a year.

Really residents are very much under paid and even the pay after residency is not so good anymore.

Just something to think about after going to school forever and then embarking on the residency path.

Syntax eerily similar to Vukken.
 
Sanman said:
I believe am correct in my belief that if resident pay was increased then they would have a hard time defering loans until after residency due to hardship. That would mean paying loans on a slightly higher salary; thus a lower net income.l

Don't forget that you can still forebare (sp?) the loan regardless of your compensation if you are in a residency program. Not as good as deference, but you still would not have to make any loan payments.
 
docB said:
Syntax eerily similar to Vukken.

Yes it is very similar. Has he returned? Over on the surgery forums Kinetic made a return but has gone quit as of late.
 
Surgery2Do said:
I was surprised to find out that most LPN's starting pay in 40K a year and RN is 60K a year.

Really residents are very much under paid and even the pay after residency is not so good anymore.

Just something to think about after going to school forever and then embarking on the residency path.

Here is another little thing for you to mentally chew on... the nurse making 60K a year works 40 hours a week.... you making around 40 k work 80 hours a week... that means that the nurse is bringing down around 28 bucks an hour while you are only making a mere 9 bucks an hour 😱

A nurse making 60K is either very experienced, working in hell hole that can't get nurses because of location or reputation, in management or working as a travel nurse. Most RN's make around 30-40 K a year when they start out but still work half the hours that you work.

staraya :meanie:
 
PGY-1: Let's say $43k a year. That comes out to $11.17 an hour, if you assume an average of 74 hours of work in a week. (This could be me, years from now, if I am as lucky as I am personable.)

The ED Tech who scrapes poo off patients: $14 an hour. (This is me now.)

However, it's a false comparison. Nobody goes into residency for the hourly wage. Anyone who is dissuaded by the comparison and decides not to pursue it is welcome to. In fact, thanks for stepping aside and leaving more spots for us poor slobs who want the $11.71 for a few years. 😀
 
I actually think nurses are very underpaid and very unappreciated. You could say the same for residents, but at least they only have to deal with that for 3-5 years. I could never do the work of a nurse. It's too hard.
 
EM attendings make 200? I assume by attendings you mean academic EM docs...I would be VERY suprised if the starting pay was that high. I would think more in 140-150s tops.
 
most surveys have EM around 180-200k, with rural areas paying more because of physician shortages.
 
Remember, this was the whole driving force of the Match law suit wich failed. It's absolutely asinine to think that after 8 years of school, you are paid about $11.00 hr. Compare to a 1st year law student from any decent state school will start above 50-60k depending on which city and if they came from a private law school, could possibly top 6 figures, just to get them to sign!! hospitals argue that residency is still "education", so the low pay, but you actualy think the big law firm puts the 1st year attorney in the court room on day one. Hell no, he spends the first 2 years in the law library researching case cites, but at least he can enjoy his 75K a yr salary!! It's bullsh%$....wait ..whats that sound? oh..thats the interest accruing on my student loans!!! Sorry kids, daddy can't play ball this weekend, he's doing extra duty this weekend so he can try to pay off his SL and maybe send you to college someday! hA! 😀
 
.

your weakness is more evident the more and more u continue
 
Cristagali said:
Remember, this was the whole driving force of the Match law suit wich failed. It's absolutely asinine to think that after 8 years of school, you are paid about $11.00 hr. Compare to a 1st year law student from any decent state school will start above 50-60k depending on which city and if they came from a private law school, could possibly top 6 figures, just to get them to sign!! hospitals argue that residency is still "education", so the low pay, but you actualy think the big law firm puts the 1st year attorney in the court room on day one. Hell no, he spends the first 2 years in the law library researching case cites, but at least he can enjoy his 75K a yr salary!! It's bullsh%$....wait ..whats that sound? oh..thats the interest accruing on my student loans!!! Sorry kids, daddy can't play ball this weekend, he's doing extra duty this weekend so he can try to pay off his SL and maybe send you to college someday! hA! 😀

Wow, that's quite the vitriolic rampage. But I must protest. It is true that graduates of top law schools and top graduates of lesser law schools can walk into very high paying jobs, this is not the norm. There is a glut of lawyers in this country and for many recent graduates finding any job is difficult. Published average wage figures for attorneys are very unreliable because there are guys like Peter Angelos who made several billion dollars a few years ago in one year. That being said, even for those "lucky" ones who land the 100K job at a NYC megafirm the life sucks. They typically work 90+ hour weeks in work which is far less interesting than ours. Not only that, their system has a strict pyramid. Of the 30 or so that start as 1st year associates, maybe two will make partner. What happens if all your time in the firm was spent specializing in Bolivian ventural capital? Well the partner doesn't want to share his client base and out the door you go after 5 or so years.

Doctors are guaranteed high income and great autonomy. Three to five lean years is well worth the investment.

Ed
 
Yeah, but there ain't no glut of doctors. If you want to even the playing field, just compare the top 25% of law graduates vs the top 25% medical grads. I'd bet my right kidney the lawyers make more money, even counting all the "good" lawyers (DA's, environmentalists, non-profits).

Despite not making partner, those loser lawyers still made some pretty good money. Besides, it's not partner or bust. You can still be an associate partner as opposed to a full one.

In any case, residents still beat burger flippers:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P78253.asp

-X

edmadison said:
It is true that graduates of top law schools and top graduates of lesser law schools can walk into very high paying jobs, this is not the norm. There is a glut of lawyers in this country and for many recent graduates finding any job is difficult.
 
Lets get a few things straight.

1. Those that say nurses get only 40k/year are either in pre-school or have never worked in a hospital. The ICU nurses I work with get around 80-90k/year. They work on vacations and get 50-70 per hour!.

2. As a 2nd year surgery resident I get 41k/year. Pure bogusness. It works out to 7/hour for me.

3. Those that argue its ok to work at that low wage are just propagators of the system. Wall mart people make more than I do and they didn't graduate highschool.

4. One of the reason's we make so little is that there is no drive to change the ripping off. Hospitals make huge amounts of cash from us. (one evening i made my attending 3k in placing central lines) Hospitals even get PAID by the gov't for us to work there. Gov't gives each accidemic institution 120k/year

5. Those that are happy with the min wage they make and their loans. Just F**K you and your sorry ass. Please leave the medical profession.

6. Residents are the lowest paid/most highly educated population in the USA, also the ones with the highest loans.

7. Let the flames begin.
 
xanthines said:
Yeah, but there ain't no glut of doctors. If you want to even the playing field, just compare the top 25% of law graduates vs the top 25% medical grads. I'd bet my right kidney the lawyers make more money, even counting all the "good" lawyers (DA's, environmentalists, non-profits).

Despite not making partner, those loser lawyers still made some pretty good money. Besides, it's not partner or bust. You can still be an associate partner as opposed to a full one.
-X

Wow -- I'll take your bet. The problem is that few law graduates make partner and those that don't get pushed out of the firm. Few firms in my experience keep associates who don't make partner on. Here's why: A law firm is not a corporation, its a partnership. Every nickle that is paid to associates is a nickle not going into the pocket of the partners. The partners get paid only based on the business they bring to the firm. In other words, they eat what they kill. You make partner if you are a rain maker -- you can sustain yourself with new business. Partners have a constant pipeline of associates learning to do their job. As you get more senior as an associate, your salary goes up. Sure, you do get more efficient, but there is usually a time when it is worth more to a firm to pay two entry level associates 100K rather than one 7th year associate 200K, especially considering there is a 6th year associate that can take over. It is a viscious pyramid.

Ten years after graduating law school, you have no idea what you will make. You might be a partner making 300K each year, you likely will have "left" the firm and taken a job as a staff attorney for a corporation making 90 or 100K, perhaps you're working as a DA for 40K or for the DOJ for 60K. And if you do take a corporate job, you are always at risk for being laid off. Tens years out of medical school (or nine if you want to be truely fair), you are guaranteed of a 150K income in primary care if you are flexible about where you live and much much more in subspecialties. This money with virtually no risk of losing your job for anything but gross negligence.

Ed
 
Well, maybe I'd bet some fingernail clippings... 🙂

Couldn't you say the same thing about lawyers? Well, if you don't make partner at Big Law Firm X, just work at Big Law Firm Y. OR start your own law firm. I imagine it's a bit easier to start your own law firm than your own medical practice.

Besides, isn't the title of this thread "LPN and RN's earn more than residents"? Why do we always compare MDs vs Lawyers? Is it better to make comparisons between professionals or within the same field?

Regardless, considering that the avg salary is $40-something K anyways, it's hard for most people to feel sympathy when residents will be making exponentially more than that, in the somewhat near future.

-X



edmadison said:
Wow -- I'll take your bet...

...Tens years out of medical school (or nine if you want to be truely fair), you are guaranteed of a 150K income in primary care if you are flexible about where you live and much much more in subspecialties. This money with virtually no risk of losing your job for anything but gross negligence.

Ed
 
Just to clarify:

Nurses who work "for a hospital", a large number of them in the country, DO NOT make 80-90L...UNLESS they pull extras/ a lot of over time (and even then it would be nearly impossible). Core Staff RNs/BSNs not in management make anywhere from 25-35/hr for the most part here in AZ.

Now what a lot of people might be thinking of are the "travel" nurses. They do make anywhere from 35-even 50/hr and also get benifits and such. They cannot. in my sife's hospital for example, sit on the gospital committees and such since they are not core staff.
 
starayamoskva said:
A nurse making 60K is either very experienced, working in hell hole that can't get nurses because of location or reputation, in management or working as a travel nurse. Most RN's make around 30-40 K a year when they start out but still work half the hours that you work.

staraya :meanie:

My mom is a nurse....she's been one for ten years but she was making 60K about 4 years into her career. And she loves her job (non management and non travel). Other nursing friends of mine coming out of college are being offered positions at around 50K and most of them enjoy what they do.
 
bla_3x said:
WOW I want to get into residency where you live. My wife is an RN and makes absolutly nowhere near 60K!!...before taxes! They must be using a large number of travel/registry RNs for that salary comparison.
In my experience, Arizona underpays EVERYONE, so I'm not surprised. As of when I moved, a newly minted/licensed teacher could qualify for foodstamps/medicaid on the average first year teacher salary. I had two master's degrees/six years of experience and as a teacher I made a whopping $24,000 a year.
Are the palm trees and swimming pools really worth it? Um, actually since it is 22 degrees here in Pennsylvania....quite possibly! :laugh:
 
Yeah...after school AZ will be a thing of the past!

But things were not too much better in Nevada, where we lived before. Starting Core staff BSNs made around 23/hr, which if you work the normal 3days/wk is just under 40K to start....But "no" state income tax!!!!!!!

There is good money in nursing if you want to be a traveler/registry/work extra days. I try to tell the wife that we could have so much more $ if she were to take an intown travel position (registry)...but she just feels like she is a part of something where whe is...to bad loyalty and job pride pays like @#$% 🙂
 
bla_3x said:
...to bad loyalty and job pride pays like @#$% 🙂

My mother, who works in information technology, always told me (her daughter, the UNDERPAID teacher), that in IT, or the legal profession, or corporate management, etc..., the high pay is simply "compensation for the loss of her/his soul." As far as she is concerned, what she does is essentially worthless since it is not tangible and does nothing for the betterment of mankind. She has to be compensated somehow for "wasting" her life/soul 😀

I love my mommy 😍 Not sure how this philosophy will fit when hubby is making $200,000/year, but at least it will work until the end of residency!
 
My brother, a college student, is working as an EKG tech at the local hospital. He makes around 15/hour. Since he works weekends and 3rd shift, his "extra pay" makes it around 22/hour. At 30 hrs/week he makes around 34K a year. How's that for someone who only has a high school diploma? I'll be working 3 times the hours for maybe 10K more a year. But, if it was easy, it wouldn't be fun.
 
k's mom said:
My mother, who works in information technology, always told me (her daughter, the UNDERPAID teacher), that in IT, or the legal profession, or corporate management, etc..., the high pay is simply "compensation for the loss of her/his soul." As far as she is concerned, what she does is essentially worthless since it is not tangible and does nothing for the betterment of mankind. She has to be compensated somehow for "wasting" her life/soul 😀

I love my mommy 😍 Not sure how this philosophy will fit when hubby is making $200,000/year, but at least it will work until the end of residency!

How are these professions doing nothing for the "betterment" of mankind? Doesn't society need lawyers and even corporate managers? Certainly IT people do a lot to make society run better. So tell your mom, "chin up".
 
j8131 said:
How are these professions doing nothing for the "betterment" of mankind? Doesn't society need lawyers and even corporate managers? Certainly IT people do a lot to make society run better. So tell your mom, "chin up".

Don't worry...Mom's chin is up, and so is her retirement savings. She just never viewed spending 25 years in a cubicle as "important" work. This was initially said to me years ago as I struggled on a new-teacher salary and my husband was trying to finish his pre-med requirements while working in a nursing home for minimum wage. She is looking very forward to the day she can spend her days in a home ceramics studio and puttering in her garden. 😀
 
This is one of the oldest complaints in the world, and not very insightful. First of all, your resident salary is funded by federal Medicare dollars; the RN's salary is funded by the hospital's cash flow.

The reason residents do not make much money is because tecnically we are trainees. An analogy... let's say you do an internship right out of college for a big marketing or banking firm in NYC. You are going to want to impress in order to maybe get offered a position when you finish (not unlike trying to shine during residency in order to secure a fellowship at the same institution) You will work long hours, not have much autonomy, and make maybe 15 bucks an hour. Kinda like being an intern, huh? Being an intern sucks, i agree, but you should reframe how you look at it - imagine that you are actually still the student that you are, and try to be psyched you are being paid at all! I mean, really, should someone pay you more than 40K/yr to do a job that requires you to be constantly supervised. And if you don't think you need to be supervised, tell yourself that again when a new onset DKA patient's drip isnt working and they start getting obtunded, or that post-op cariac patient starts having dysrythmias, or that psychotic man grabs the nurse and puts a fork to her neck. You will relaize in a heartbeat just how little you know, and how indeed you are still very much a "student"

Speaking of nurses.... they are, in general, paid ****. This is why there is such a huge shortage - something that is soon to become a frightening public health crisis. back in a different era, women went into nursing because it was one of only a few jobs a college-educated women could secure, and expect to support herself independently with. With increasing opportunities for women in the 1960s and 1970s, the shortage began to manifest. The fact is, most women (and I am not being sexist, just realistic) do not want to take a job where they wade in crap, blood, and vomit all day in a physically and emotinally demanding workplace where they are treated like second-class personnel by doctors and patients alike. Whats to love there? The ones that stick wit it are to be commended; unfortunately most of the veteren nurses leave bedside nursing to become administrators/educators/etc. The noble ones that stay in staff nursing and want to make decent money work for travel agencies where they have to work in very undesirabel hopsitals and move around every few months. Nursing is a powerfully important profession, and we as physicians really need to become advocates for RNs in their quest for better pay. They deserve every penny they make, and we should be on board with the policy changes that need to take place in order for them to regain a decent standard of living. Our professional lives, and the literal lives of our patients depend on it.
Flame me ad lib ;-)

PGY-1 Peds
 
k's mom said:
My mother, who works in information technology, always told me (her daughter, the UNDERPAID teacher), that in IT, or the legal profession, or corporate management, etc..., the high pay is simply "compensation for the loss of her/his soul." As far as she is concerned, what she does is essentially worthless since it is not tangible and does nothing for the betterment of mankind. She has to be compensated somehow for "wasting" her life/soul 😀

I love my mommy 😍 Not sure how this philosophy will fit when hubby is making $200,000/year, but at least it will work until the end of residency!



Residency will make quick work of your soul.
 
There's a whole lot of bitching on this thread! Everyone is bickering about whether nurses make 40 or 90 grand and which jobs are overpaid or underpaid. If you think nurses are overpaid and hate your job so much, then you should have become a nurse. If you think it's not worth it to do what you do, then go to where the grass is greener. You chose your profession, stay in it or leave it, the choice is yours.

Yes it does seem ridiculous that ICU nurses make 90K and nurse anesthetists make 120-130K on three 12 hour shifts per week while pediatricians working double those hours make 110-120. There are several million nurses in this country and their huge powerful organizations and unions have gotten then some pretty nice salaries. But that's just the way it is right now. If you don't like it, be a nurse or do something about it. Better to light a candle than to curse the dark.

As a physician, you are pretty much guaranteed to have a job for the rest of your life, or as long as you want to work, for >100,000/yr. Often times much more than that. I imagine most doctors retire millionaires. Yes it is a long long long road, with unmeasurable sacrifice, and most acquire huge financial debt along the way. But we chose it. We chose it because we THINK. We would not be happy in a non-thinking job, and most jobs are non-thinking jobs. People with non-thinking jobe have very high rates of depression. It also gives us other perks such as beautiful wives! And for the female docs out there, you have no right to complain that you couldn't get pregnant at 40 or your kids grew up without a mom. Don't blame the profession, blame yourselves for not getting your priorities straight.

What I'm trying to say is, we deliberately chose our professions. Stop complaining about them and enjoy the great lives you've made for yourselves.
 
gerickson03m said:
Lets get a few things straight.

1. Those that say nurses get only 40k/year are either in pre-school or have never worked in a hospital. The ICU nurses I work with get around 80-90k/year. They work on vacations and get 50-70 per hour!.

2. As a 2nd year surgery resident I get 41k/year. Pure bogusness. It works out to 7/hour for me.

3. Those that argue its ok to work at that low wage are just propagators of the system. Wall mart people make more than I do and they didn't graduate highschool.

4. One of the reason's we make so little is that there is no drive to change the ripping off. Hospitals make huge amounts of cash from us. (one evening i made my attending 3k in placing central lines) Hospitals even get PAID by the gov't for us to work there. Gov't gives each accidemic institution 120k/year

5. Those that are happy with the min wage they make and their loans. Just F**K you and your sorry ass. Please leave the medical profession.

6. Residents are the lowest paid/most highly educated population in the USA, also the ones with the highest loans.

7. Let the flames begin.

You had a choice and claim to be intelligent...so quit complaining. 🙄

The market dictates what you're worth as a resident. Because you willingly agreed to work a crap load of hours (no one twisted your arm about doing surgery), you get a pathetic hourly wage. Suck it up. You're never gonna get paid more as a resident because there's a long line of wannabe surgeons who were trying to match for your position just to get the same raw deal.

Were you that stupid to think that things were gonna change between going into medical school and now? Quit your b*tchin' because you made a decision, albeit a misinformed one, that clearly wasn't right for you. The best thing YOU could have done to defy the status quo was to not go into residency. Schmuck!
 
I think residents are underpaid and should get at least 60 -70 K a year. From what I understand the government pays 250K a year for every resident the hospital has in a programs.

Living on 38K in the Northeast is very difficult. If you go to a place like El Paso then all is well because the cost of living there is much less.

An RN only works 36 hours a week for 60K a year. I do not think it is too much for a doctor to earn 60K for 80 hours a week.
 
doctor7 said:
You had a choice and claim to be intelligent...so quit complaining. 🙄

The market dictates what you're worth as a resident. Because you willingly agreed to work a crap load of hours (no one twisted your arm about doing surgery), you get a pathetic hourly wage. Suck it up. You're never gonna get paid more as a resident because there's a long line of wannabe surgeons who were trying to match for your position just to get the same raw deal.

Were you that stupid to think that things were gonna change between going into medical school and now? Quit your b*tchin' because you made a decision, albeit a misinformed one, that clearly wasn't right for you. The best thing YOU could have done to defy the status quo was to not go into residency. Schmuck!

1. Personal attacks show you have no argument at all.
2. Resident's pay is NOT driven by market forces (please read befor you open your mouth and type)
3. I knew along time ago what I was getting into, I love surgery, does not mean I have to love my pay.
4. We will soon get paid more once the class action lawsuit goes through in newyork
5. I work alot unsupervised (lap chole, appy SBO ect), so the arguement that thats why we get paid less doesn't work.
6. On of th main reason's our pay sucks is w have people like the above poster who accept the status quo and see no reason why it should change. If all residents went on stike for a week, things would certainly change in a fast way.
 
gerickson03m said:
1. Personal attacks show you have no argument at all.
2. Resident's pay is NOT driven by market forces (please read befor you open your mouth and type)
3. I knew along time ago what I was getting into, I love surgery, does not mean I have to love my pay.
4. We will soon get paid more once the class action lawsuit goes through in newyork
5. I work alot unsupervised (lap chole, appy SBO ect), so the arguement that thats why we get paid less doesn't work.
6. On of th main reason's our pay sucks is w have people like the above poster who accept the status quo and see no reason why it should change. If all residents went on stike for a week, things would certainly change in a fast way.


I like the idea of a strike. It would sure get the attention of the higher ups very quick.
 
gerickson03m said:
6. Residents are the lowest paid/most highly educated population in the USA, also the ones with the highest loans.

Actually PhD post-docs who are the equiavalent of MD/DO fellows get paid less than interns. My wife as a second year post-doc fellow will be paid several thousand less qyear than I will when I start my internship this summer, as per NIH mandated pay-scales for PhDs. The partner of one of my friends is a tenured professor of humanities, he earns roughly what my friend will earn as a 4th year psych resident. Although I do agree about the loans.
 
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