Lying about income based repayment?

[sozetone]

guys,

What if you signed up for Income driven repayment plan ok? told them you make 0$ and have no job. They start charging you a monthly bill of 0$. What are the consequences? eventually you have to re-certify and show a tax statement. What do you think would happen if you did this for 2-3 years, then attempted to start showing income and pay?

I know someone doing this.

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[confettiflyer]

If you have no job and you file $0, you’re not lying, so what’s the problem? You’re supposed to send pay stubs once you start working, but if you fail to do so and report income only when your annual recertification is due, you’re not knowingly making a false statement. Failure to report income as it is happening can be construed as being accidental, which is not willful misrepresentation.

Now if you keep reporting zero year after year and you are actually making money, that’s different. IRS and the student loan agencies can interface with each other, so it wouldn’t be hard to find out.

This friend probably won’t get caught. But if they’re caught, they would be in violation of federal law and would be charged with a felony. Maximum 5 years in prison and a $20k fine, and you’ll most certainly lose your pharmacist license.

From the form: “WARNING: Any person who knowingly makes a false statement or misrepresentation on this form or on any accompanying document is subject to penalties that may include fines, imprisonment, or both, under the U.S. Criminal Code and 20 U.S.C 1097”


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[Ra1nMak3r]

Are you “asking for a friend”?

 

[BMBiology]

This is what I don't get about some pharmacists. I know a pharmacist who cheated on his health saving account...just to make a few hundred bucks. Don't you know your pharmacist license is worth $3-4M? You are going to risk it all for a few bucks?!

 

[sozetone]

If you have no job and you file $0, you’re not lying, so what’s the problem? You’re supposed to send pay stubs once you start working, but if you fail to do so and report income only when your annual recertification is due, you’re not knowingly making a false statement. Failure to report income as it is happening can be construed as being accidental, which is not willful misrepresentation.

Now if you keep reporting zero year after year and you are actually making money, that’s different. IRS and the student loan agencies can interface with each other, so it wouldn’t be hard to find out.

This friend probably won’t get caught. But if they’re caught, they would be in violation of federal law and would be charged with a felony. Maximum 5 years in prison and a $20k fine, and you’ll most certainly lose your pharmacist license.

From the form: “WARNING: Any person who knowingly makes a false statement or misrepresentation on this form or on any accompanying document is subject to penalties that may include fines, imprisonment, or both, under the U.S. Criminal Code and 20 U.S.C 1097”


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So what do you recommend they do? assuming they are ready to pay at this time? re-certify at the specified time, showing your income and hope all goes well? is there a chance?

 

[deleted480308]

So what do you recommend they do? assuming they are ready to pay at this time? re-certify at the specified time, showing your income and hope all goes well? is there a chance?

you chances of jail are likely to decrease the sooner you stop committing fraud

 

[sozetone]

you chances of jail are likely to decrease the sooner you stop committing fraud

so, what is your recommendation? thats what i asked.

 

[deleted480308]

so, what is your recommendation? thats what i asked.

I had thought that was clear, stop committing fraud

 

[lord999]

If you have no job and you file $0, you’re not lying, so what’s the problem? You’re supposed to send pay stubs once you start working, but if you fail to do so and report income only when your annual recertification is due, you’re not knowingly making a false statement. Failure to report income as it is happening can be construed as being accidental, which is not willful misrepresentation.

Now if you keep reporting zero year after year and you are actually making money, that’s different. IRS and the student loan agencies can interface with each other, so it wouldn’t be hard to find out.

This friend probably won’t get caught. But if they’re caught, they would be in violation of federal law and would be charged with a felony. Maximum 5 years in prison and a $20k fine, and you’ll most certainly lose your pharmacist license.

From the form: “WARNING: Any person who knowingly makes a false statement or misrepresentation on this form or on any accompanying document is subject to penalties that may include fines, imprisonment, or both, under the U.S. Criminal Code and 20 U.S.C 1097”


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No, not reporting a W-2/1099 when asked for by a federal agency is not considered accidental, under tax law, that's considered automatically fraudulent unless you can prove that you did not work for the business or had some other arrangement. Dept. Ed sends a notice to both HHS White Oak (for evidence of welfare if you don't have a job) and to the IRS at the Austin Woodward Complex (for W2 or tax information filed for your SSN).

The "good" news is that both Dept Ed and IRS lack the auditors to enforce action right now going after bigger fish. However, it's pretty dumb, the SAS program automatically flags it, and it's just a matter of administrative resources to follow up on failure to file.

This is what I don't get about some pharmacists. I know a pharmacist who cheated on his health saving account...just to make a few hundred bucks. Don't you know your pharmacist license is worth $3-4M? You are going to risk it all for a few bucks?!

VA Worker Sentenced for Taking Kickbacks

I was party to that sorry affair in the IG at the time, and it still haunts me in my nightmares sometimes for something as asinine as red tape kickbacks.

 

[Dr Wario]

VA Worker Sentenced for Taking Kickbacks

I was party to that sorry affair in the IG at the time, and it still haunts me in my nightmares sometimes for something as asinine as red tape kickbacks.

Wow omg I am pissed at the worker, but the fact that a company was overcharging the government for actual "red tape" is hilarious.

 

[mentos]

Why would anyone do this? Just pay off the loan!

 

[BMBiology]

Look at this fool....can’t ever work as a pharmacist because he counterfeited some clothing.

When people google this name, this comes up. Good luck on getting a job.


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[NITRAS]

I had thought that was clear, stop committing fraud

“Stop breaking the law!”
-Jim Carry

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

guys,

What if you signed up for Income driven repayment plan ok? told them you make 0$ and have no job. They start charging you a monthly bill of 0$. What are the consequences? eventually you have to re-certify and show a tax statement. What do you think would happen if you did this for 2-3 years, then attempted to start showing income and pay?

I know someone doing this.

Your friend would end up in jail, hopefully

 

[projektreverb]

But why though? Tell them to pay their student loans before our salary turns to **** and they can’t pay.

 

[sozetone]

Your friend would end up in jail, hopefully

Your friend would end up in jail, hopefully

yeah, I guess some people don't care about going to jail. Especially if your in a dead end career like pharmacy, and dont have a lot to lose.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

You're supposed to send in an annual ECF form. I suggest you also start doing an annual IDR form to calculate your new student loan payment.

You should be making strides to maximize tax incentivized accounts (401k/403b, and HSA) each year, so your loan payment should decrease as you contribute more to those accounts.

My point is, if it has been more than 12 months that you've been underpaying the government now.... you need to fix the issue asap.

 

[BMBiology]

yeah, I guess some people don't care about going to jail. Especially if your in a dead end career like pharmacy, and dont have a lot to lose.

You must have low IQ if you think being stuck in a dead end career warrants the risk of going to jail.


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[BidingMyTime]

I don't know how the government would react, but if you, I mean your friend, are currently employed, the best thing you can do is file the proper paperwork and start paying back your loans. Yeah, you might still get in trouble for not having done this sooner....but the longer you lie it will just get worse and worse. I'm guessing you are worried that by starting to pay your loans, that might trigger them to look and realize you hadn't been paying them before. I suppose that is a possibility, but like others have pointed out, if you work for any person or company that reports your income to the IRS, then it's no secret anyway.

 

[PA_dud3]

yeah, I guess some people don't care about going to jail. Especially if your in a dead end career like pharmacy, and dont have a lot to lose.

>steady salary averaging $120,000 +/-
>benefits
>decent prospects of getting a job
>good work environment (a/c, lunch breaks at most places, usually no insane hours)
>would rather go to jail

Even with all the alleged doom and gloom surrounding the profession. I can think of exactly 0 situations where I would rather go to jail than practice in some fashion as a pharmacist.

 

[confettiflyer]

You guys are terrible at reading, let me break down the OP’s post:

January 2018 - borrower is unemployed, $0 income, files for income based repayment of $0/mo

June 2018 - Borrower gets a job (FT? PT? Per diem? Doesn’t matter)

Question 1) Does borrower have to report to Dept of Ed they got a job/income and submit a new IBR/ICR application?

My answer: technically yes, but with caveats. You’re supposed to report any material change in income, arguably, if you get a FT job that’s a material change. What’s less clear is if you have an irregular hour job, would you submit pay stubs if you could possibly go to zero hours next month? That’s debatable.

Comment two: does the Dept of Ed create a duty to report changes and would failure to do so constitute fraud? This is different from actively lying on the form, another grey area to me. @lord999 was talking about tax fraud, this is something else.

Question 2) will this borrower, who eventually will file taxes, get hit with fraud charges if they prove income at some point in 2019 (when 2018 taxes are due) and Dept of Ed sees a zero income IBR on file?

Again, grey area, I’m likely to say it’s questionable. It’s more obvious from a zero IBR point of view.

Write more later, gotta go.


EDIT: I read the IBR app closer and it does not compel you to report an income change more frequent than 1 year, even if there's a material change. You DO have to be honest WHEN you file, but there's no duty created to file more frequent.

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[BMBiology]

You guys are terrible at reading, let me break down the OP’s post:

January 2018 - borrower is unemployed, $0 income, files for income based repayment of $0/mo

June 2018 - Borrower gets a job (FT? PT? Per diem? Doesn’t matter)

Question 1) Does borrower have to report to Dept of Ed they got a job/income and submit a new IBR/ICR application?

My answer: technically yes, but with caveats. You’re supposed to report any material change in income, arguably, if you get a FT job that’s a material change. What’s less clear is if you have an irregular hour job, would you submit pay stubs if you could possibly go to zero hours next month? That’s debatable.

Comment two: does the Dept of Ed create a duty to report changes and would failure to do so constitute fraud? This is different from actively lying on the form, another grey area to me. @lord999 was talking about tax fraud, this is something else.

Question 2) will this borrower, who eventually will file taxes, get hit with fraud charges if they prove income at some point in 2019 (when 2018 taxes are due) and Dept of Ed sees a zero income IBR on file?

Again, grey area, I’m likely to say it’s questionable. It’s more obvious from a zero IBR point of view.

Write more later, gotta go.


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Doesn’t sound like OP is a new graduate (posted in 2017):

So, I took the colorado MPJE yesterday. I had EVERY study material possible and studied 6 weeks. The questions were mostly all out of left field, specific to topics which were never discussed in my materials, some questions had multiple answers. It was a horror show. I was 30 questions in and asked myself, "Did they give me the correct state or test?"....i used the colorado board rules, CRS statutes, CRS and federal CS laws, Federal book by reiss, online practice testing, and flashcards. I would like to say I have NEVER failed an exam in my college career , passed FL MPJE and naplex in 2012 no problems. So whats up with this exam? I truly felt cheated....really wasnt my fault . I don't know where this particular material came from, but I had it all. I refuse to even retake it, considering I cannot find the material which these questions were derived from. Another money making scam perpetrated on American pharmacy....ill stay in sunny FL and not freeze my sack off. thank you.

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[lord999]

You guys are terrible at reading, let me break down the OP’s post:

January 2018 - borrower is unemployed, $0 income, files for income based repayment of $0/mo

June 2018 - Borrower gets a job (FT? PT? Per diem? Doesn’t matter)

Question 1) Does borrower have to report to Dept of Ed they got a job/income and submit a new IBR/ICR application?

My answer: technically yes, but with caveats. You’re supposed to report any material change in income, arguably, if you get a FT job that’s a material change. What’s less clear is if you have an irregular hour job, would you submit pay stubs if you could possibly go to zero hours next month? That’s debatable.

Comment two: does the Dept of Ed create a duty to report changes and would failure to do so constitute fraud? This is different from actively lying on the form, another grey area to me. @lord999 was talking about tax fraud, this is something else.

Question 2) will this borrower, who eventually will file taxes, get hit with fraud charges if they prove income at some point in 2019 (when 2018 taxes are due) and Dept of Ed sees a zero income IBR on file?

Again, grey area, I’m likely to say it’s questionable. It’s more obvious from a zero IBR point of view.

Write more later, gotta go.


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Sorry, I was not quite clear though I did read the implications. No, I was not referring to tax fraud, but just plain and simple fraud.

Short answer:
Having no income right now is not the same as having no income within a taxable period. If you come into some money that is paid on a W-2 or 1099 basis, you are responsible to the IRS for their quarterly reporting period (and even the W-2 employees face this, that's why you have withheld income rather than owe a huge tax bill at the end of the year), but for benefits, you are required to report for the reporting period and make retrospective adjustments for missed periods. As well, your friend has the additional joy of having to forecast income the federal way for these benefits. It's fraudulent otherwise even with precarious employment.


Attempted cure for insomnia follows:
So, if you are claiming a benefit from the federal government and it asks to prove income, the way that works is irrespective if you had filed a tax return or not, if you had a W2 or 1099 filed on your SSN's behalf in the current fiscal year for any reason and fail to report it, it is fraud. The rub is that if you have a W2 income of $0 at present but you are technically employed in a 0 hour job, you have to forecast and pay taxes for that fiscal quarter by the due date and that forecast is what you have to put down as income. If you put 0 down, and you don't have a history of making money, that's not going to be an acceptable justification for our industry (the federal government uses DoL Classification Codes to estimate the likelihood of getting work in a quarter, so people who work as migrant farm labor would get the benefit of the doubt due to seasonality of their wages, but we won't because we have regular and fixed hours and salary schedules). If your income changes drastically, like quitting or getting a guaranteed job, you are obligated to make the change by the beneficiary period's next reporting period (so monthly for IBR) and owe retroactive for the months behind. That's easily verifiable, but there is an additional problem. If this is W2 income, there is no seasonality, it is all year round, so you have to take that amount, divide that by 12 and that's your monthly even if you made it all in Nov/Dec unless you just started a job and can prove otherwise that it was impossible to make money at that place of employment.

So, if the friend actually has no income, it's a bit more complicated than just that. If the friend has a job that can earn income, s/he has to figure out whether it's W2 or 1099. If it's W2, then an estimate needs to be made annually. If 1099, then the worker has to keep a separate record as a contractor for the periods of labor and pay prospective taxes on that income quarterly. This is the same for federal benefits as well.

The one group that happens to be an exception to the fluctuating income rules are those migrant farm workers, where special provisions in the law allow them to claim welfare periods even if their annual income exceeds the federal poverty rate on an annual basis. This is not a loophole, that was intentionally put in to help them out considering that no one else wants to do the work and the industry is structured such that it was a bigger problem for tax collection if the current arrangement is not in place. The problem for them is that we still don't have to pay farm workers a minimum wage...

 

[sozetone]

Doesn’t sound like OP is a new graduate (posted in 2017):






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Wow you dug up an OLD post...lol I passed that MPJE in another state, I'm actually licensed in 5. like i said , jail doesn't scare everyone.

 

[sozetone]

You must have low IQ if you think being stuck in a dead end career warrants the risk of going to jail.


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low IQ? cmon is that the best you can dish out?

 

[sozetone]

>steady salary averaging $120,000 +/-
>benefits
>decent prospects of getting a job
>good work environment (a/c, lunch breaks at most places, usually no insane hours)
>would rather go to jail

Even with all the alleged doom and gloom surrounding the profession. I can think of exactly 0 situations where I would rather go to jail than practice in some fashion as a pharmacist.

Doktor, None of what you just said is coming your way. 120k? i dont think so. decent prospects of getting a job? are you serious? work environment no insane hours? A/C.....yes your definitely not working yet. or looking for a job.

 

[confettiflyer]

Doesn’t sound like OP is a new graduate (posted in 2017):






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Was using dates as an example since the first post not clear


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[PA_dud3]

Doktor, None of what you just said is coming your way. 120k? i dont think so. decent prospects of getting a job? are you serious? work environment no insane hours? A/C.....yes your definitely not working yet. or looking for a job.

I personally know of two people who graduated from pharmacy school in the last two years and both of them were employed within 3 months of graduation. One got a job literally 2 miles from the school he graduated from at an independent. The biggest hospital a county over has 2 vacant spots for FT staff pharmacists (I am related to the HR manager). I feel confident I will be able to find something in my home state. I'm not saying there is a shortage of anything currently, but I refute the idea that things are truly as bad as made out to be. I feel most of the saturation claims are from cities and metro areas, and less so from the areas I would like to work in.

I personally feel comfortable in a retail environment. I used to work as a fabrication apprentice, so maybe the A/C component of it doesn't apply to most people. It beats working in the heat that's for sure lol

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

guys,

What if you signed up for Income driven repayment plan ok? told them you make 0$ and have no job. They start charging you a monthly bill of 0$. What are the consequences? eventually you have to re-certify and show a tax statement. What do you think would happen if you did this for 2-3 years, then attempted to start showing income and pay?

I know someone doing this.

So if you're a pharmacist at an independent or own an independent, i'm sure there is a way to not report the entire taxable income... you can work out a deal with the owner to give you a tax-free incentives somehow... maybe then you can report less than what you make?

 

[confettiflyer]

So if you're a pharmacist at an independent or own an independent, i'm sure there is a way to not report the entire taxable income... you can work out a deal with the owner to give you a tax-free incentives somehow... maybe then you can report less than what you make?

Yes, you can lower your salary and take shareholder loans out from your company.

As long as you pay the minimum interest rate set by the IRS back, you’re in compliance with tax laws.

Structure the loan with a balloon payment at the end AFTER the IBR period, and that income will eventually be taxed by the IRS but will not affect IBR as that is done.


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[BMBiology]

You do know any loans left over after 25 years is taxable income right?


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[VictorOfHungerGames]

You do know any loans left over after 25 years is taxable income right?


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At this rate, this country may not exist after 25 years lol I'm seriously counting on Donald Trump running this economy to the ground... lol jkjk.

 

[BenJammin]

I find it so criminal that a pharmacist is eligible for REPAYE

 

[TerryTerry]

1. You can report your income change for IBR as many times as you want but the loan holder really only care about that once a year annual update.
2. In that annual update, you must be honest about the monthly income, profit and any interest you receive.
3. Annual update requires you to provide IRS information each time. You may have to explain if your income has significantly changed from what they expect from you this year or next.

4. The loan holder is trying to help you by providing IBR option for those who need them. Despite most SDN users being financially successful, some people genuinely benefit from this. If someone takes advantage of this system, there will be consequences without a doubt.

It is true that forgiven amount will become taxable income and at that point IRS will come after you directly with significant ability to squeeze money out of you. Bottom line is that.. it is stupid to lie to get better deal on IBR because sooner or later it`s going to come after you.

Unless, of course, you plan to commit suicide or leave the country well before the last month of IBR.

 

[confettiflyer]

3. Annual update requires you to provide IRS information each time. You may have to explain if your income has significantly changed from what they expect from you this year or next.

There's no room on the form for this, and what's the definition of "significant?"

If someone takes advantage of this system, there will be consequences without a doubt.

There's consequences to taking advantage of a program not intended for you, but is still legal? I want to know what that is.

Unless, of course, you plan to commit suicide or leave the country well before the last month of IBR.

Even if you leave the country, you're liable for the taxes. You've got to fully renounce your citizenship, even then, you might still owe it as it was incurred while you were a citizen.

 

[confettiflyer]

Sorry, I was not quite clear though I did read the implications. No, I was not referring to tax fraud, but just plain and simple fraud.

Short answer:
Having no income right now is not the same as having no income within a taxable period. If you come into some money that is paid on a W-2 or 1099 basis, you are responsible to the IRS for their quarterly reporting period (and even the W-2 employees face this, that's why you have withheld income rather than owe a huge tax bill at the end of the year), but for benefits, you are required to report for the reporting period and make retrospective adjustments for missed periods. As well, your friend has the additional joy of having to forecast income the federal way for these benefits. It's fraudulent otherwise even with precarious employment.

Correct on the quarterly reporting, I've gotten nasty grams about missed quarterly unemployment payments. Oops. But that's the IRS. We're talking about the Department of Ed, for which there is no statute or corresponding case law supporting that a borrower under an income contingent plan has an affirmative duty to report a *change* in income.

https://static.studentloans.gov/images/idrPreview.pdf

If one looks at the form closely, it asks if the CURRENT income as of the date of this form is "significantly different" from the income represented on your most recent tax return.

That is, someone who goes from student (with an intern job) to unemployed would mark yes and would claim zero income (lawfully).

What is not clear is that the form legally obligates a person to file a form when they come into some money. This form is filed annually, so eventually someone will have to mark "yes" that the income is different from the last tax return, and that income will then be reported and calculated.

What's missing is any directive to notify Dept of Ed of income changes in the interim (unless I'm just not seeing it).

The IBR payment has always lagged behind actual/current income, they're using my 2017 tax return, and when I file next year, they'll use my 2018 tax return.

What's also missing is the definition of "significantly different." To me, a $20,000 change in income is not significant, for example.

 

[confettiflyer]

You do know any loans left over after 25 years is taxable income right?

lol that's a problem for another day. 25 years ago was 1993. That's 5 years before Google was founded.

 

[confettiflyer]

You're supposed to send in an annual ECF form. I suggest you also start doing an annual IDR form to calculate your new student loan payment.

You should be making strides to maximize tax incentivized accounts (401k/403b, and HSA) each year, so your loan payment should decrease as you contribute more to those accounts.

My point is, if it has been more than 12 months that you've been underpaying the government now.... you need to fix the issue asap.

The way IBR is structured results in a lagging payment on income. My form I filed in June 2018 contained information from my 2016 tax return, as my 2017 tax return was not done yet (I filed an extension). I was not lying on the form when I said my income today is not "significantly" different from my income in 2016. But significance is never defined.

 

[confettiflyer]

Bottom line everyone, there's ways to be legally honest but advantageous to your personal financial position.

Examples I noted above (and in other threads):
1) Filing an extension on your 1040 so Dept of Ed is forced to use an older tax return
2) Setting a higher definition for "significantly different" since it is not specifically defined by law
3) Structuring payment from a closely held corporation as a loan with favorable (but still legal) terms and a balloon payment outside of the IBR window
4) Maximizing above the line tax deductions
5) Starting a money-losing business and taking advantage of the "3 of 5 year" provision from the IRS, allowing losses to flow into your Schedule C on the 1040, thus lowering your IBR obligations.

 

[lord999]

Correct on the quarterly reporting, I've gotten nasty grams about missed quarterly unemployment payments. Oops. But that's the IRS. We're talking about the Department of Ed, for which there is no statute or corresponding case law supporting that a borrower under an income contingent plan has an affirmative duty to report a *change* in income.

https://static.studentloans.gov/images/idrPreview.pdf

If one looks at the form closely, it asks if the CURRENT income as of the date of this form is "significantly different" from the income represented on your most recent tax return.

That is, someone who goes from student (with an intern job) to unemployed would mark yes and would claim zero income (lawfully).

What is not clear is that the form legally obligates a person to file a form when they come into some money. This form is filed annually, so eventually someone will have to mark "yes" that the income is different from the last tax return, and that income will then be reported and calculated.

What's missing is any directive to notify Dept of Ed of income changes in the interim (unless I'm just not seeing it).

The IBR payment has always lagged behind actual/current income, they're using my 2017 tax return, and when I file next year, they'll use my 2018 tax return.

What's also missing is the definition of "significantly different." To me, a $20,000 change in income is not significant, for example.

The actual law:
20 U.S. Code § 1097 - Criminal penalties

It's a Level 24 offense at most, and a Level 17 at minimum, and the fraud statutes in 20 USC all reference 26 USC which are the Commerce (i.e. IRS) provisions. I'm no tax lawyer, but basically, it's generally a stupid idea to misrepresent in questionable faith (because it's bad faith assumed in this case) anything relating to earnings and income as an employee when it comes to federal benefits. What happens if you overestimate your income is that you can file for relief after the fact (just like a tax return).

There is not a case right now as there are no resources, but the law is broad enough that I'm sure a US Attorney can articulate a good enough legal theory to prosecute these cases. If I can see it, they certainly can make a better one stick.

What I was also trying to point out is that there are systems in place for data interchange to verify these statements. Now, considering the execution of Dept. Ed policy right now, I could probably get away with the fraud if necessary, but that's somewhat of a risk. It's far better to just insanely cheat on taxes and play the math game of avoiding an IRS auditor. (I'm unfortunately not kidding, the IRS has such a dearth of auditors and accountants since the fallout of the politicization this time that the IRS is known to be incapable of mounting their usual fearsome auditing reputation on private citizens.)

Keep in mind though, student loans have no discharge date except death right now, so, the statute of limitations is unlimited during payment status and seven years afterward. I'm not confident that Dept. Ed will get to cleaning this up as they are not interested in the moment considering the mismatch on their hands, but why roll the dice on something this trivial?

About the generalities:
https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/...uick-facts/Government_Benefits_Fraud_FY17.pdf

 

[confettiflyer]

The actual law:
20 U.S. Code § 1097 - Criminal penalties

It's a Level 24 offense at most, and a Level 17 at minimum, and the fraud statutes in 20 USC all reference 26 USC which are the Commerce (i.e. IRS) provisions. I'm no tax lawyer, but basically, it's generally a stupid idea to misrepresent in questionable faith (because it's bad faith assumed in this case) anything relating to earnings and income as an employee when it comes to federal benefits. What happens if you overestimate your income is that you can file for relief after the fact (just like a tax return).

There is not a case right now as there are no resources, but the law is broad enough that I'm sure a US Attorney can articulate a good enough legal theory to prosecute these cases. If I can see it, they certainly can make a better one stick.

What I was also trying to point out is that there are systems in place for data interchange to verify these statements. Now, considering the execution of Dept. Ed policy right now, I could probably get away with the fraud if necessary, but that's somewhat of a risk. It's far better to just insanely cheat on taxes and play the math game of avoiding an IRS auditor. (I'm unfortunately not kidding, the IRS has such a dearth of auditors and accountants since the fallout of the politicization this time that the IRS is known to be incapable of mounting their usual fearsome auditing reputation on private citizens.)

Keep in mind though, student loans have no discharge date except death right now, so, the statute of limitations is unlimited during payment status and seven years afterward. I'm not confident that Dept. Ed will get to cleaning this up as they are not interested in the moment considering the mismatch on their hands, but why roll the dice on something this trivial?

About the generalities:
https://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/...uick-facts/Government_Benefits_Fraud_FY17.pdf

But the question is...by not submitting a form, are you misrepresenting? It’s like asking...how can you lie when you’re not talking? The requirement, as far as I’ve read, is submitting a truthful form once a year. If it is truthful at the time of submission, then where’s the fraud?

I’ll dig deeper to see if there’s an actual requirement to submit with each material change of income.


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[sozetone]

Good news guys, This was only a test. I thought up the idea and wanted to see what you thought. Just to save a few extra duckets next few years ya know?. after research and your opinions the truth is, I could probably pull it off, but i wont bother trying. Pharmacy may be a terrible profession at the moment, but i've been involved with it since 1997. It will never die with me....I guess i'm thinking, why pay into something you may never have again in roughly 1-3 years? We can change the thread topic now if you want.

 

[BMBiology]

Good news guys, This was only a test. I thought up the idea and wanted to see what you thought. Just to save a few extra duckets next few years ya know?. after research and your opinions the truth is, I could probably pull it off, but i wont bother trying. Pharmacy may be a terrible profession at the moment, but i've been involved with it since 1997. It will never die with me....I guess i'm thinking, why pay into something you may never have again in roughly 1-3 years? We can change the thread topic now if you want.

Scared of going to prison?


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[confettiflyer]

What’s there to pull off? Did you establish you had a duty to file a form each and every time there’s an income change?


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[sozetone]

Scared of going to prison?


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No, but nobodys going to prison....lol

 

[confettiflyer]

No one seems to want to engage my legal question....typical SDN, they see student loan repayments and go into a blind rage about paying it back in full, lmao


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[lord999]

But the question is...by not submitting a form, are you misrepresenting? It’s like asking...how can you lie when you’re not talking? The requirement, as far as I’ve read, is submitting a truthful form once a year. If it is truthful at the time of submission, then where’s the fraud?

I’ll dig deeper to see if there’s an actual requirement to submit with each material change of income.


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That's specifically an old defense for fraud. It isn't something I would test in this situation as most of those matters fall back on Commerce laws and regulations for projection and recouping of income reporting. I can say that for TANF and for VA beneficiary stuff, that exact posture is considered fraudulent if a corrective form is not filed with retrospective payment once the situation is clarified in terms of income (both TANF and VA have to pay retrospective benefits, so we do collect on retrospective debts as well).

 

[sunshinefl]

No one seems to want to engage my legal question....typical SDN, they see student loan repayments and go into a blind rage about paying it back in full, lmao


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I’ve just been watching the thread. But maybe you aren’t getting those responses because we’re not lawyers or accountants.

 

[confettiflyer]

I’ve just been watching the thread. But maybe you aren’t getting those responses because we’re not lawyers or accountants.

Neither am I.


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[Monsterdaddy]

The IDR form's income verification requirements can be satisfied by either your tax return or last 30 days of pay stubs. Obviously, there are ways to game the pay stubs and as far as I know it's legal -- some of this is based on pure timing. For example, some people deduct higher amounts for 401(k) early in the year and reduce it later. Some folks regularly earn shift differential and overtime but could take vacation during the submission period and submit paystubs with lower income. Or a person with floater jobs can choose not to work during the submission period. Again, this is timing (and sometimes it works the other way and you get a higher payment).

And the ability to recalculate your payment when there is a significant change in income is beneficial to the borrower when income DROPS -- you can get an immediate decrease in loan payments. And if hopefully you recover your income, you have a whole year to wait to report the higher income.

There's nothing illegal here, this is just how the law was enacted. (Note: people may legally game the tax return too, i.e. pushing off income to next year.)

The fairest way would be to enact a new law that says your CURRENT loan repayments may be recalculated with additions or subtractions based on your tax returns on a 1-3 year look back period to correct variances vs pay stubs submitted. That way any ups or downs will eventually be accounted for yet any immediate changes (like loss of income) will still give the proper payment relief yet preserve payment history for eventual forgiveness.

I'll admit one year I really lucked out that I had practically no floater shift income in the 30 days when FedLoans requested income verification. (And I honestly had no clue if I would in the future at the time). ON the flipside, my friend submitted paystubs that had lots of overtime and then the hospital started cracking down on OT so he got shafted when he decided it wasn't worth reporting the drop.