M3 and gunners

[honey0102]

Honest question to those of you in/who have finished M3-not a troll question.
Is there more "gunning" in M3 rotations than M1-2, in general?
I'll be honest-I was told medical school would have some gunners but I'm surprised at the extent of it.
When I do well, I don't broadcast it. I know there are probably people around me who despite trying may not have done well and I'd hate to make them feel bad. I also don't go around saying it was easy to do well-I get that it might make someone who worked hard feel bad and I personally know I have to work crazy hard to get my grades. But there are people in my class who literally broadcast everything. They say "OMG, I am doing SO well" "It is so easy to be in the top quartile of the class"...etc. Broadcast grades on individual exams and say how easy it was to get that high grade. This past semester, as STEP was on everyone's minds, some of these people would brag endlessly about how well it went, how well NBME exams went, etc. Our school had to email our class basically telling us not to do this.

Is all this because of the upcoming Step exam/being around students so much? Or from people's experience...is M3 no different?

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[mrbreakfast]

Short answer: yes

Long answer: this is the part of med school where gunning turns from out-performing your classmates on paper to out-performing them in person. The people who were obnoxious before (assuming step didn't humble them - THE most arrogant gunner in my preclinicals fell flat on step and shut up) will be worse now. It's practically encouraged at some places. At a surgical subspeciaty interest session, some residents advised us the best way to stand out was to take more patients than assigned and to always out-shine the other students so attendings will remember you. This is compounded by the shelf exams giving you a percentile grade, so now you don't just think you did well compared to others but are certain of it.

The good news: getting at least some mediocre evaluations is practically guaranteed in M3 year - you'll inevitably be evaluated by someone who doesn't even bother to learn your name - and that brings anyone back down to earth.

 

[ricksimmonsrafowens]

At a surgical subspeciaty interest session, some residents advised us the best way to stand out was to take more patients than assigned and to always out-shine the other students so attendings will remember you.

the attending will "remember you" in a negative way maybe. There is a minuscule amount of surgery attending who care about how many/which patients a medical student presents (as the attending will have to round later with the residents anyway if you're doing table rounds first, or they will be in contact with the resident to decide the definite plan). In fact, some may even be annoyed that a medical student is presenting more patients than is appropriate/expected, as that takes up time and resources that's usually scarce. don't do this unless you are 100% SURE your resident wants you to present certain patients.

 

[honey0102]

Yikes. Unfortunate that gunning continues in M3. I guess what surprises me is I went to a VERY competitive undergrad and only half the premeds (if that) got into med school...vs 100% match rate now...yet the amount of gunning is more now. It's actually pretty immature, imo, but whatever. Hopefully residency isn't the same way

 

[deleted645092]

OP what you’re describing isn’t “gunning”. Those people are being a$$holes and it stems from insecurity; They don’t feel like they belong for whatever reason and therefore feel the need to advertise that they’re actually doing well.

Technically a gunner would be someone who is actively sabotaging other students/ making them look bad, which does happen during M3 if you are working with other students on a team. It can consist of taking patients that were being assigned to other students, or complaining about other students to the attending without confronting the student first, or answering questions that were asked of another student/ correcting that student’s wrong answer. But there is a fine line between being a good student during 3rd year and making others look bad so you’ll inevitably do something like that without meaning to.

 

[honey0102]

OP what you’re describing isn’t “gunning”. Those people are being a$$holes and it stems from insecurity; They don’t feel like they belong for whatever reason and therefore feel the need to advertise that they’re actually doing well.

Technically a gunner would be someone who is actively sabotaging other students/ making them look bad, which does happen during M3 if you are working with other students on a team. It can consist of taking patients that were being assigned to other students, or complaining about other students to the attending without confronting the student first, or answering questions that were asked of another student/ correcting that student’s wrong answer. But there is a fine line between being a good student during 3rd year and making others look bad so you’ll inevitably do something like that without meaning to.

That sounds scary. Wow. I don't get why people act this way...we're all in med school/will likely all match...even in undergrad orgo, where 50% of the people would not get into med school (I went to a big undergrad) it wasn't as bad as the scenarios you guys mentioned with people actually sabotaging each other

 

[Chibucks15]

That sounds scary. Wow. I don't get why people act this way...we're all in med school/will likely all match...even in undergrad orgo, where 50% of the people would not get into med school (I went to a big undergrad) it wasn't as bad as the scenarios you guys mentioned with people actually sabotaging each other

I went a big undergrad too and we literally had a kid send out a 'study guide' with incorrect info on it out to the class. People are just egomaniacs and immature about these kinda things. I always say you can kinda tell who's had experiences outside of academics because 8/10 times they aren't like that

 

[curbsideconsult]

"Outshine" means different things to different people. If you get residents/attendings who are flashy and arrogant themselves, of course they're going to want to see medical students who are loudly clamoring over each other to look and sound the best at all times, even if it means throwing people under the bus. However, I would argue that these types are pretty rare these days, even amongst the most competitive specialties and old school docs. Most residents/attendings just want you to be yourself and to be a good person trying your best everyday.

Most of the people who act like that in your class now during preclinical years quickly get put in their place on rotations. Karma's a wench that way. But no matter where you go or how old you get, the competitive people will always be there. It doesn't end with preclinicals, it doesn't end with med school, it doesn't end with residency, it doesn't end with fellowship, and it doesn't end with attendinghood. Even when you and your classmates are well established in your careers and you lack for nothing, you will then be comparing your children/cars/neighborhood/etc. Long story short, you do you and try not to let the noise get to you.

 

[afib123]

Just do your job. You are not really competing with anyone for your clinical evaluations. If you are good, you are good and you will get a grade.
What are the gunners going to do? Lead you astray? Lie/Gossip? I can't really really think of much they can to do bring you down.
If they do anything that is obnoxious and clearly unprofessional, tell your resident and they are screwed for that rotation.
So focus on yourself. Grades will follow. I did not have any problem with the "gunners". End of the day, your performance comes down to your presentation on rounds for most rotations other than surgery.

 

[honey0102]

"Outshine" means different things to different people. If you get residents/attendings who are flashy and arrogant themselves, of course they're going to want to see medical students who are loudly clamoring over each other to look and sound the best at all times, even if it means throwing people under the bus. However, I would argue that these types are pretty rare these days, even amongst the most competitive specialties and old school docs. Most residents/attendings just want you to be yourself and to be a good person trying your best everyday.

Most of the people who act like that in your class now during preclinical years quickly get put in their place on rotations. Karma's a wench that way. But no matter where you go or how old you get, the competitive people will always be there. It doesn't end with preclinicals, it doesn't end with med school, it doesn't end with residency, it doesn't end with fellowship, and it doesn't end with attendinghood. Even when you and your classmates are well established in your careers and you lack for nothing, you will then be comparing your children/cars/neighborhood/etc. Long story short, you do you and try not to let the noise get to you.

Wow...I can see that being true. This is solid advice. Thanks!

 

[Tenk]

For most specialties, the typical gunner mentality is annoying as hell for attendings and residents. The worst ones I have had I would just constantly give them tasks so that they wouldn’t talk to me. Now for some specialities (surgery and related) they like people like that. Whatever floats their boat. Just know that the vast majority of these students come off as self absorbed, know-it-all, annoying backstabbers.

My best advice for MS3 is to show up on time, don’t complain, do your work, put your phone away, smile a lot, if you hate it just fake it, don’t throw people under the bus and instead be a team, and try to connect to residents/attendings about things outside of medicine. You’ll be a hell of a lot more memorable this way than being eager to answer some dumb question.

 

[honey0102]

For most specialties, the typical gunner mentality is annoying as hell for attendings and residents. The worst ones I have had I would just constantly give them tasks so that they wouldn’t talk to me. Now for some specialities (surgery and related) they like people like that. Whatever floats their boat. Just know that the vast majority of these students come off as self absorbed, know-it-all, annoying backstabbers.

My best advice for MS3 is to show up on time, don’t complain, do your work, smile a lot, if you hate it just fake it, don’t throw people under the bus and instead be a team, and try to connect to residents/attendings about things outside of medicine. You’ll be a hell of a lot more memorable this way than being eager to answer some dumb question.

This is golden. Thanks so much. I really value advice like this. It's so reassuring too.
I've participated in one clerkship so far (in our school, M1s/M2s do a longitudinal clerkship) and there would be 1-2 other students there, 1-2 attendings. We all got along absolutely fine, had a great time, and none of us gunned against each other. The M2 would reassure/help the M1s, the M1s would collaborate to look up diseases etc...and it was great. The attendings also seemed to like us. So I can definitely understand what you mean. Glad most of it is that way.

 

[21Rush12]

I haven’t encountered any of this at all. There are people who work hard (someone on peds who wants to go into peds) and they shine but it’s not to anyone’s detriment.

Or maybe I’m the gunner all this time?!?

 

[ricksimmonsrafowens]

I haven’t encountered any of this at all. There are people who work hard (someone on peds who wants to go into peds) and they shine but it’s not to anyone’s detriment.

Or maybe I’m the gunner all this time?!?

These people exist. I was on an IM clerkship and had my co-rotator complained about me to the attending, residents, and clerkship director. I asked her what I did to upset her and she ignored me. I haven't really figured out what I did to upset her. I still got that IM honors though, I think the attending's reaction was more like "wtf" to the complainer. My co-rotated ended up matching peds. So much for the stereotype of nice and well-adjusted pediatricians.

 

[honey0102]

These people exist. I was on an IM clerkship and had my co-rotator complained about me to the attending, residents, and clerkship director. I asked her what I did to upset her and she ignored me. I haven't really figured out what I did to upset her. I still got that IM honors though, I think the attending's reaction was more like "wtf" to the complainer. My co-rotated ended up matching peds. So much for the stereotype of nice and well-adjusted pediatricians.

Omg...someone actually complaining, lying about a fellow student just to get ahead. That's horrible. I'm sorry. But I'm glad you got the Honors!

 

[21Rush12]

So much for the stereotype of nice and well-adjusted pediatricians.

Any such stereotype was shattered for me on peds.

 

[ricksimmonsrafowens]

Any such stereotype was shattered for me on peds.

for some reason I've met the cruelest attendings on that rotation. I thought some surgeons were insane, but some peds attendings were really out of this world mean to their residents.

 

[DO2015CA]

Honest question to those of you in/who have finished M3-not a troll question.
Is there more "gunning" in M3 rotations than M1-2, in general?
I'll be honest-I was told medical school would have some gunners but I'm surprised at the extent of it.
When I do well, I don't broadcast it. I know there are probably people around me who despite trying may not have done well and I'd hate to make them feel bad. I also don't go around saying it was easy to do well-I get that it might make someone who worked hard feel bad and I personally know I have to work crazy hard to get my grades. But there are people in my class who literally broadcast everything. They say "OMG, I am doing SO well" "It is so easy to be in the top quartile of the class"...etc. Broadcast grades on individual exams and say how easy it was to get that high grade. This past semester, as STEP was on everyone's minds, some of these people would brag endlessly about how well it went, how well NBME exams went, etc. Our school had to email our class basically telling us not to do this.

Is all this because of the upcoming Step exam/being around students so much? Or from people's experience...is M3 no different?

Idk if you understand what a gunner is. Although the examples above are douchy they aren’t gunners. Gunners throw people under the bus for their own gain. In short, yes you will have gunners on your rotations. With any luck the residents and attendings will see through it, making that person look like an ass hat. But yes you will have co-students try to one up you during rounds/correct you/ run to the resident saying you didn’t do something. Just be chill and work hard.